Recommendation for Githyanki lvl 15 EK (mc?) build: Red Dragon Bounty Hunter Knight

[TumulorumFossor]

Hi!
I'm not used to playing EK, but that's what I was assigned for the party of four for a one-off red dragon encounter (that's all I know about the encounter), for a level 15 Githyanki.
The only magic item I KNOW I am getting (and I am certain there will be more), are boots of flight.

Update 11/17:
DM says he gets The Sword:
"Well they would have to send a Gith knight to go fetch a disobedient dragon. So yeah, you can have a silver sword. +3 greatsword that can hit astral cords. But no bonus psychic damage." Also Winged Boots (2hrs of walking speed flight).

I'm kind of floundering with the possibilities, and looking for guidance.

The Githyanki has Str and Int +2. Since this is a one-timer to level 15, I can boost the Con early since I don't have to roleplay the early levels and get those HPs.

The DM hasn't ruled OUT multiclassing, so I GUESS I could probably get away with a EK/War Wizard build, as I will have some Int. But I'm not even sure if that's ideal at this point. But given the red dragon hunt, which is appropriate for a Githyanki, Wisdom saves will be important.

Just would like to hear some ideas.

Thanks!

[MrCharlie]

Hi!
I'm not used to playing EK, but that's what I was assigned for the party of four for a one-off red dragon encounter (that's all I know about the encounter), for a level 15 Githyanki.
The only magic item I KNOW I am getting (and I am certain there will be more), are boots of flight.

I'm kind of floundering with the possibilities, and looking for guidance.

The Githyanki has Str and Int +2. Since this is a one-timer to level 15, I can boost the Con early since I don't have to roleplay the early levels and get those HPs.

The DM hasn't ruled OUT multiclassing, so I GUESS I could probably get away with a EK/War Wizard build, as I will have some Int. But I'm not even sure if that's ideal at this point. But given the red dragon hunt, which is appropriate for a Githyanki, Wisdom saves will be important.

Just would like to hear some ideas.

Thanks!
Boosting CON early versus late is irrelevant, by the by. You calculate based on number of hit die, not per level. Boosting it at level 20 is the same as boosting it at level 1.

Githyanki get +2 STR and +1 INT, so you'll want to buy a decent INT and at least a 14 STR. Because you want WIS I would make the array-

14 8 14 13 14 8

Which your race turns into

16 8 14 14 14 8.

For spells, you want the absorb element spell for sure and probably shield. Most other EK spells don't matter a single bit because you'll be hitting things with your sword over using spells-misty step can't go wrong though, but I'd expect to use your second level slots on more absorb elements and shield spells. You might consider some other self-buffs, but you can't reliable keep haste up without a higher CON and no other arcane spell really helps. Protection from energy would help others, as you can absorb elements yourself. Maybe pick up wall of water or counterspell (in case its a spellcaster) for your 3rd levels? Maybe thunderstep with your 14th level "pick a school" spell to close with the dragon if it flees?

War Wizard is fine and all, but you'd want at least 11 fighter levels for three attacks, so there almost isn't a point. Any more wizard levels than 1 robs you of a feat as well, and you kinduve want those feats so I don't see any reason to go for war wizard at all. War Wizard as the main class would be interesting though. And one wizard level doesen't give you war wizard features anyway.

Anyway, I would probably simply go with a Greatsword area denial build. You get 5 total feats (4, 6, 8, 12, 14) so bump STR to 20, great weapon master for one, Sentinel for another, and resilient WIS for the last. Your goal is to get in melee, using the various abilities and spells at your disposal to do so, and hack the dragon to quivering bits. You have +7 to WIS saves and your abjuration reactions and spells can keep the fire breath from killing you and deflect attacks, so your HP should be okay.

[Corran]

1) Well, the dragon attacks your wisdom saves with it's fear ability, so you need to defend against that, cause if you fail, you wont even be able to approach it.
Resilient wis, indomitable, or heroism and inspiration from a dip in bard could help here.
* Bardic inspiration helps with all remaining saves, so I wont be repeating it.

2) The dragon attacks your dex saves with its breath, so you need to be good at those (though on its own it's not going to be enough). Resilient dex, indomitable, absorb elements, haste and shield master can help here.

3) The dragon attack your AC and it wont have too much of a problem hitting your base AC, and thus it can go through your hit points like butter, so you need to stack AC. Shield (assuming you commit your reaction to it) and haste can help here.

4) The dragon will force concentration checks easily, so you need to have good con save/ concentration check.
Warcaster and indomitable can help here.

5) The dragon is faster, so if it wants it can just kite you with its breath, so you need to be fast, if not finding a way to limit it's movement.
Longstrider, haste with feather fall at the ready for if/when you'll lose concentration (or alternatively expeditious retreat; weaker but safer, though the movement speed will probably not be enough), sentinel, grappling (+shoving + maybe feather fall; you'll need enlarge to grapple assuming adult, and against and ancient it just doesn't work) can help here.

6) Finally, you'll want to be able to deal good damage against the dragon.
Shadow blade is probably your best bet due o the dragon's high AC (though GWM + haste will be ok too if you have a way to get advantage). Either way, dont expect to ace it here, since the dragon's AC is high.

===============================================

It quickly becomes obvious that you can't do many of these things at once. So try to be good at those that your party will need you to be good at (ie try to work as part of some overall strategy), while being aware what opportunity cost each option will present you with (eg using sentinel to try to keep the dragon from fleeing, means that you are not using shield on that turn, and that could be very bad; so try to figure out if that's worth it for your group, when comparing it to something else you -or someone else- could be doing to prevent the dragon from kiting you).

Assuming this fight is not against an ancient red dragon (which are gargantuan), without additional context, I'd probably go EK 14 plus one level of bard (or wizard, if you prefer shadow blade over heroism and bardic inspiration), with longstrider, haste, expeditious retreat, shield, feather fall, absorb elements and enlarge (plus shadow blade if I have enough room for it), for a high mobility plus grapple + shove approach, with warcaster and resilient wis (or dex, if I dont mind risking a prediction on the timing of frightful presence; hmm, leaning to resilient dex actually) and prodigy (athletics) as definite picks. Or something like that (losing the 15th level EK feature for this fight is not definitely not a small cost though). Edit: Forgot about lucky. That's probably being picked too.

Edit:
In a fair fight, just go with a dex based (con your other focus) EK11/divine soul 3 (plus one more level to use as you see fit), for using shadow blade along with quickened spell (and maybe sentinel if there's a strong possibility for reaction attacks; though it competes with shield, so it's a tough choice even if I was guaranteed to get an extra SB attack each round through my reaction) for attack. And then trying to boost defenses as much as I could, mainly by trying to use the best non-concentration options available (though I might still pick heroism and try to enter the fight with it on, cause a lot is at stake in that wis save against fright for your melee build), just so I could hopefully last long enough to deal some decent damage to the dragon (that's partly why I am going for quicken, because the odds are that this dragon is taking me down fast if it just focuses me a little).

[TumulorumFossor]

Any thoughts on making him an effective ARCHER? That would offset much of the red dragon's speed advantage/kiting (though it would underuse the Githyanki Knight sword...)?

Note silver sword gives Advantage to Wisdom saves while holding it:

Greater Silver Sword
MTF
p89
Martial weapon (greatsword), melee weapon, legendary (requires attunement by a creature that has psionic ability)
6 lb. 2d6 slashing - heavy, two-handed
This magic weapon grants a +3 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it. While you hold the sword, you have advantage on Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma saving throws, you are immune to being charmed, and you have resistance to psychic damage. In addition, if you score a critical hit with it against a creature's astral body, you can cut the silvery cord that tethers the target to its material body, instead of dealing damage.

[Gignere]

I’d recommend an EK 11 / War Wizard 4 build. Depending on what magic items you get from the DM you can build it either strength based or dexterity based. Definitely should be using Shadowblade. Why war wizard? You get better spell slots to upcast shadow blade access to all wizard spells. +4 to saves on a reaction which is huge, and intellect added to initiative.

Feats I would recommend resilient wis, lucky, and if you don’t need the ASI for abilities GWM. If the DM allows you to map out how you level I would change all of the EK’s level 1 spells into level 2 spells. Use your wizard spell book for level 1 spells. Why GWM because on a crit you can get a bonus action attack with Shadowblade, with 3 attacks at advantage chances of it happening is quite good every round.

I would just put 13 in int to qualify for wizard and see if your DM would give you a headband of intellect.

[TumulorumFossor]

Thanks for the guidance, everyone. I need to have this done by this weekend so time to make some choices.

I know i have Winged Boots, so that takes care of the Feather Fall if i want to grapple. And Githyanki do get strength bonus.

And we have a Misty Step psionic 30ft bonus teleport: another tool for melee/anti-kiting.

I also have a Githyanki Knight greatsword which, aside from +3 to att/dam, also gives advantage to WIS saves which offsets a bit the fear of Fear.

In order to take advantage of all that, the MELEE oriented suggestions take precedence.

I also agree that since so much of what a Red Dragon does requires Dex saves, that Resilient Dex more important than Resilient Wis.

GSM also useful: we KNOW we have the+3 greatsword (with WIS save advantage as we hold it) so need to make that work to the max.

And i think Sentinel becomes key, not just for the OppAttack. But for the SPEED ZERO to the dragon that comes with it. Using GFB here is classic, but using +3 Greatsword nearly as effective for single target.

But this means have to boost that AC.
Dex or Plate? Because we ain't shielding. And we need to make Dex saves. So that means no heavy armor.

Gulp.

So high Dex: enjoy the saves, hate the pummeling.
So the spells need to focus on defense and boosting that AC. Nice because less likely to get strategies nerfed by the dragon's THREE automatic saves (after failing if desired). Spells used on me won't be dependent on HIS saves.

MC becomes next question given that's how I'm interpreting the above. I'm not settled on that question at all.

[Gignere]

Knowing that you do have the Githyanki greatsword makes the build recommendation much easier. I still recommend the EK 11 / War Wizard 4 but now it should be strength based and you should wear either medium or heavy armor but see if you can get it in adamantine. I mean if you’re not using a shield you will get hit no matter what armor you are using so just avoiding the crits will be crucial.

I think resilient wis and great weapon fighting are still the feats to pick. Dex saves wouldn’t be awesome but with absorb elements and using the +4 to save from war wizard will probably give you enough mitigation.

You might want to consider heavy armor master as another feat, although dragons DPR is high they come in many smaller hits rather than one big hit. So HAM can be surprisingly effective against a dragon’s full attack.

[TumulorumFossor]

What about Sentinel?
How would you rank order the feats being considered if doing ek/ww?

[Gignere]

What about Sentinel?
How would you rank order the feats being considered if doing ek/ww?

If I didn’t know you were fighting a dragon, sentinel would probably rank way higher but the fact that you are, there are many ways the dragon can get around it. With their legendary actions, breath attack, and they can see through illusions so you can’t even do the sentinel mirror image combo. Some of it also depends on how your DM plays the dragon.

You may even consider a 13 / 2 split of the EK and WW because this way you can have access to haste but if a party member can provide haste, you can stick with the 11/4 split with the winged boots your speed should match the dragons so sticking next to it shouldn’t be a problem at all.

What are the rest of the party? Can they protect themselves from the dragon? So hard to rate sentinel as a stand-alone.

I would rate resilient wis as mandatory even with advantage on wis saves just because a failed save on the frightened and basically you can’t do anything. Great weapon master is a great DPR boost probably better way to keep the dragon’s attention than sentinel, when you hit the dragon for 50 - 60 damage a round it knows it will have to focus on you.

[Corran]

What about Sentinel?
How would you rank order the feats being considered if doing ek/ww?
There are two ways to use sentinel.

1) One is to tag team an enemy along with an ally, and use sentinel for reaction attacks (assuming that you and your ally can build in a way so you dont make the enemy solely focus you first). In which case you want an attack that hits hard (so something like an upcast shadow blade for your EK build). Wont be great against the dragon, but going out in a blaze of glory while (hopefully) inflicting enough damage for your standing allies to take it down, still counts as victory.

2) The main use however, is to use it to lock someone down. And that tends to works well against big scary mobile intelligent enemies. Even more so if we are talking about a solo enemy. In which case, dont miss the opportunity to get lucky, and thus be able to use some of your dice on those important OA's (so that the dragon wont just go eat your squishy buddies).

Now, while (2) works great in theory against a dragon (that is played smartly), at least once you get next to it that is (and assuming you have enough mobility to follow it where it'll go if you end up missing on your OA), the problem is, that if you are dead, you dont get to use sentinel and the dragon will end up going wherever it wants. Melee fighters dont stand well against dragons. If you were a barbarian, sentinel would be greatly advisable, and it would work better. You can't do many things well at the same time as a fighter against such an opponent. But if you really need sentinel, because you really need to keep this dragon put, and because there is no better way to do that as a party (both are serious limitations), then and only then would I commit to sentinel. And to make it work, I'd put everything else to defense and just enough to speed so that I can at least match the dragon's. That probably means dodging with my action (advantage on dex saves, which is important if I want to prevent the dragon from knocking me prone with its wing attack, and thus either attack me at advantage, or worse, creating distance from me, which is what I am trying to prevent in the first place; which is terrible from all aspects, and even if you have feather fall; IIRC flying speed is not enough to keep you from falling, you need hover for that), being dex based, holding a shield and a greatsword (wont be using it to attack, cause I wont even be attacking), and lucky (and that's only to improve my chances in melee; I still need to defend against the fear and breath, which will logically eat some of my lucky and indomitable dice). Commiting to sentinel for this fight might be very useful if not getting it means that the dragon gets to exploit a huge weakness (that your party may or may not have). But it's still very hard to make it work decently, and to even have a chance, you need to commit with everything you've got; and I dont think it will even be enough). So that's what I am saying. Take sentinel only if you are ready to support it 100%, cause it might be a wasted feat if it takes the dragon actions worth of 1-2 turns to kill you. It will work better if you have other melee allies, but in that case it might be better if some other ally took it, cause you've got good uses for your reaction already (though that melee ally would also need to be fast). Hmm, might be worth taking the feat and use it to try to keep the dragon in place till your slower melee ally/allies can get in range too, then switch to using your reaction with shield (assuming you are still up) and count on a sentinel ally to keep the dragon in place.

========================================

If you dont make yourself immune to fear, that means that you can't cover both for wis and dex saves well as just a fighter. In which case I second the war wizard dip, cause even with multi-advantage (dodge/haste, silver sword, indomitable, lucky), you need a good base score to put these advantages to good use. And that's where the +4 to saves from arcane deflection comes in (it's going to be a problem if the dragon breaths on you or tries to scare you when you are close to it, cause in such an occasion you wont be able to use both arcane deflection and sentinel). You'll need the rerolls for lots of things (you need to have enough indomitable/lucky dice left for when the dragon starts using its wings against you), but you definitely need to succeed against fear that one first time, and dex saves will be many (breath and wings). So, I'd go with resilient dex, and chance the fear at 76% success against an ancient red (with +2 wis, +4 from war wizard, advantage from sword, and rerolls from lucky and finally indomitable, all included in the calculation). Assuming you go with a STR build, aim for a dex of 14 (resilient dex included), so you are rolling at +7 (since reaction commits to absorb elements) against the breath and at +7 (since reaction commits to sentinel) against the wings' damage and knockback effect. Indomitable and lucky dice could help here too, for example by increasing the chance to save against a breath at the start of combat against an ancient red to 51% (and counting on absorb elements to reduce whatever damage you'll take). The problem is that you'll probably not have enough of these extra dice left to make a difference against the wings.

tldr: Sentinel on a fighter can only work for a very specific party that is geared badly to do fight against a dragon, but just badly enough so that 1 or 2 turns of sentinel would make a real difference (and you almost definitely need a second sentinel user in that case). Against an adult red dragon, assuming no forcecage - like stuff are in play, best bet is to grapple/prone and then dodge/attack as necessary, with your reactions going to shield. Or just focus on damage (if restricting the dragon's movement is not that important) and hope you do enough for your allies to take down once you eventually drop unconscious/dead. Against an ancient dragon, just focus on doing damage. In both cases you also need to guard against fear, breath, and generally bump your saves (lucky, resilient), and in both cases you also need speed.

[TumulorumFossor]

What are the rest of the party? Can they protect themselves from the dragon? So hard to rate sentinel as a stand-alone.

I think part of the challenge is the minimal information...
... :) but i was able to get the info:
1 Ranger
1 Cleric
1 Barbarian
And yours truly, the Fighter (EK).

All level 15 against CR 17 Adult Red Dragon.
Don't know if it's in the lair but i think is likely. Gulp.

[Corran]

I think part of the challenge is the minimal information...
... :) but i was able to get the info:
1 Ranger
1 Cleric
1 Barbarian
And yours truly, the Fighter (EK).

All level 15 against CR 17 Adult Red Dragon.
Don't know if it's in the lair but i think is likely. Gulp.
If you can find out, it would be useful to know if the barbarian will have access to a flying speed, and if the cleric can precast something like a heroes' feast.

[TumulorumFossor]

MINIMAL communication with party. Not even sure I'm supposed to be doing it.

But it's a Red Dragon. We need every break we can get.

Lobbying cleric for Heroes Feast as a challenge to come up with a better use for a sixth level spell in this context. Twould be YUGE!

Barbarian intends to Jump his way around if i understand his veiled communication...

[MrCharlie]

If I didn’t know you were fighting a dragon, sentinel would probably rank way higher but the fact that you are, there are many ways the dragon can get around it. With their legendary actions, breath attack, and they can see through illusions so you can’t even do the sentinel mirror image combo. Some of it also depends on how your DM plays the dragon.

You may even consider a 13 / 2 split of the EK and WW because this way you can have access to haste but if a party member can provide haste, you can stick with the 11/4 split with the winged boots your speed should match the dragons so sticking next to it shouldn’t be a problem at all.

What are the rest of the party? Can they protect themselves from the dragon? So hard to rate sentinel as a stand-alone.

I would rate resilient wis as mandatory even with advantage on wis saves just because a failed save on the frightened and basically you can’t do anything. Great weapon master is a great DPR boost probably better way to keep the dragon’s attention than sentinel, when you hit the dragon for 50 - 60 damage a round it knows it will have to focus on you.

He can get Haste with 15 EK levels, it's just not a good idea. There is too much guaranteed fire damage to make that CON save reliably, even with absorb elements.


Thanks for the guidance, everyone. I need to have this done by this weekend so time to make some choices.

I know i have Winged Boots, so that takes care of the Feather Fall if i want to grapple. And Githyanki do get strength bonus.

And we have a Misty Step psionic 30ft bonus teleport: another tool for melee/anti-kiting.

I also have a Githyanki Knight greatsword which, aside from +3 to att/dam, also gives advantage to WIS saves which offsets a bit the fear of Fear.

In order to take advantage of all that, the MELEE oriented suggestions take precedence.

I also agree that since so much of what a Red Dragon does requires Dex saves, that Resilient Dex more important than Resilient Wis.

GSM also useful: we KNOW we have the+3 greatsword (with WIS save advantage as we hold it) so need to make that work to the max.

And i think Sentinel becomes key, not just for the OppAttack. But for the SPEED ZERO to the dragon that comes with it. Using GFB here is classic, but using +3 Greatsword nearly as effective for single target.

But this means have to boost that AC.
Dex or Plate? Because we ain't shielding. And we need to make Dex saves. So that means no heavy armor.

Gulp.

So high Dex: enjoy the saves, hate the pummeling.
So the spells need to focus on defense and boosting that AC. Nice because less likely to get strategies nerfed by the dragon's THREE automatic saves (after failing if desired). Spells used on me won't be dependent on HIS saves.

MC becomes next question given that's how I'm interpreting the above. I'm not settled on that question at all.
Don't bother with DEX saves, just get absorb elements. It's like making all your saves for a 1st level slot.

WIS will matter more, trust me. DEX is just damage. WIS saves against fear will keep you from fighting in melee at all. Resilient WIS over Resilient DEX, 100%, unless you want to buy a high enough WIS that advantage can give you at least 50-50 odds of making a DC 21 save-which requires a +5 WIS. So no, you've got to have resilient or immunity from a spell or trait.

Of course, no plan survives contact, and you're relying on the Barbarian a lot to actually show up in melee with you, which requires him to not blow his own WIS save. Of course, he's relying on your to show up in melee, which requires that you not blow your WIS save. It's why heroes feast is such a game changer-Dragon Fear is actually one of their stronger traits against melee heavy parties.

Sentinel is going to be hugely important to keep it in melee. Some people are saying that this is suicide, and it is, but it's also suicide to not keep it in melee. To put it another way-Sentinel forces it to stay near you and hit you, not having sentinel just means it can choose to leave and can also just hit you to the exact same degree. Unless you need that feat for something else, sentinel will drastically help the Barbarian.

(Just make sure he doesn't also pick it up).

And in general, between shield and absorb elements, you can mitigate a lot of damage no matter what the dragon chooses to do. Enough to last 2 rounds, which is probably 2 rounds of melee you wouldn't have without it, and 2 rounds for you and the Barbarian to run a train on the thing. If you didn't have sentinel, you would just be playing to game of asking the Dragon to please kill the cleric and ranger first, then kill you, then finally strafe the Barbarian to death for a minute or two. You get more time if the Cleric decides to heal you, too.

[TumulorumFossor]

He can get Haste with 15 EK levels, it's just not a good idea. There is too much guaranteed fire damage to make that CON save reliably, even with absorb elements.


Don't bother with DEX saves, just get absorb elements. It's like making all your saves for a 1st level slot.

WIS will matter more, trust me. DEX is just damage. WIS saves against fear will keep you from fighting in melee at all. Resilient WIS over Resilient DEX, 100%, unless you want to buy a high enough WIS that advantage can give you at least 50-50 odds of making a DC 21 save-which requires a +5 WIS. So no, you've got to have resilient or immunity from a spell or trait.

Of course, no plan survives contact, and you're relying on the Barbarian a lot to actually show up in melee with you, which requires him to not blow his own WIS save. Of course, he's relying on your to show up in melee, which requires that you not blow your WIS save. It's why heroes feast is such a game changer-Dragon Fear is actually one of their stronger traits against melee heavy parties.

Sentinel is going to be hugely important to keep it in melee. Some people are saying that this is suicide, and it is, but it's also suicide to not keep it in melee. To put it another way-Sentinel forces it to stay near you and hit you, not having sentinel just means it can choose to leave and can also just hit you to the exact same degree. Unless you need that feat for something else, sentinel will drastically help the Barbarian.

(Just make sure he doesn't also pick it up).

And in general, between shield and absorb elements, you can mitigate a lot of damage no matter what the dragon chooses to do. Enough to last 2 rounds, which is probably 2 rounds of melee you wouldn't have without it, and 2 rounds for you and the Barbarian to run a train on the thing. If you didn't have sentinel, you would just be playing to game of asking the Dragon to please kill the cleric and ranger first, then kill you, then finally strafe the Barbarian to death for a minute or two. You get more time if the Cleric decides to heal you, too.

Lot of good stuff there. But if I can convince Cleric (and more importantly DM) to go Heroes Feast, then, assuming not a spellcasting dragon (I'm guessing that because it is CR17 and we're level 15 but who knows...), the WIS save relevance evaporates, no?
Without that Heroes Feast, then I'll just have to find room for the ResWis. But if I can get the Heroes Feast, I'd rather use those Feat points elsewhere.
MrCharlie, you're still advocating SINGLE class GSM/Denial, right? Heavy Armor mastery?

You're saying one Sentinel between two melee characters that can dish out the damage should be enough to keep the dragon relatively grounded?

[Gignere]

He can get Haste with 15 EK levels, it's just not a good idea. There is too much guaranteed fire damage to make that CON save reliably, even with absorb elements.


Don't bother with DEX saves, just get absorb elements. It's like making all your saves for a 1st level slot.

WIS will matter more, trust me. DEX is just damage. WIS saves against fear will keep you from fighting in melee at all. Resilient WIS over Resilient DEX, 100%, unless you want to buy a high enough WIS that advantage can give you at least 50-50 odds of making a DC 21 save-which requires a +5 WIS. So no, you've got to have resilient or immunity from a spell or trait.

Of course, no plan survives contact, and you're relying on the Barbarian a lot to actually show up in melee with you, which requires him to not blow his own WIS save. Of course, he's relying on your to show up in melee, which requires that you not blow your WIS save. It's why heroes feast is such a game changer-Dragon Fear is actually one of their stronger traits against melee heavy parties.

Sentinel is going to be hugely important to keep it in melee. Some people are saying that this is suicide, and it is, but it's also suicide to not keep it in melee. To put it another way-Sentinel forces it to stay near you and hit you, not having sentinel just means it can choose to leave and can also just hit you to the exact same degree. Unless you need that feat for something else, sentinel will drastically help the Barbarian.

(Just make sure he doesn't also pick it up).

And in general, between shield and absorb elements, you can mitigate a lot of damage no matter what the dragon chooses to do. Enough to last 2 rounds, which is probably 2 rounds of melee you wouldn't have without it, and 2 rounds for you and the Barbarian to run a train on the thing. If you didn't have sentinel, you would just be playing to game of asking the Dragon to please kill the cleric and ranger first, then kill you, then finally strafe the Barbarian to death for a minute or two. You get more time if the Cleric decides to heal you, too.

If he goes at least 2 level of war wizard he will have + 4 to constitution save along with proficiency and probably +2 to constitution I think he should be good on holding concentration. He doesn’t even need to roll a save below 26 points of damage done.

Of course he’ll have to decide to whether use the +4 to saves or Absorb Elements since he can’t do both.

Obviously if you can get fire resistance that would help a ton.

[MrCharlie]

Lot of good stuff there. But if I can convince Cleric (and more importantly DM) to go Heroes Feast, then, assuming not a spellcasting dragon (I'm guessing that because it is CR17 and we're level 15 but who knows...), the WIS save relevance evaporates, no?
Without that Heroes Feast, then I'll just have to find room for the ResWis. But if I can get the Heroes Feast, I'd rather use those Feat points elsewhere.
MrCharlie, you're still advocating SINGLE class GSM/Denial, right? Heavy Armor mastery?

You're saying one Sentinel between two melee characters that can dish out the damage should be enough to keep the dragon relatively grounded?
No heavy armor mastery-just use heavy armor. Take the defense fighting style though, great weapon style does too little comparatively. Your feats would be +4 STR, Resilient WIS, GWM, and Sentinel.

And yeah, single class. I think that all those feats are too important to sacrifice any, and you get two of them in the last four fighter levels, so you lose one by multiclassing. If you can get heroes feast, then absolutely multi-class 4 levels of war mage so you can use a reaction to get +4 to a save as a reaction. You sacrifice resilient WIS, but that doesen't matter anymore.

(Also, 15 levels of EK lets you have two backup plans-if the dragon flees you can thunder step, and if the dragon casts you can attempt counterspells)

In general, the lockdown is imperfect, and reaction overlap is where the lockdown fails-if the dragon hits you too hard you need to use reactions to stay alive, and that means no threat of AOO to keep the dragon grounded. It's also not 100% reliable, you need to actually hit an AOO (but your to hit bonus is pretty astronomical) which is why having a way to gap close-flying speed, misty step, thunder step-will help so much. But in general the dragon can skedaddle eventually, sentinel is just one of the only reliable countermeasures, and helps keep attacks on you.

To put it another way, because of legendary resistance, you can't lock down their movement with spells-so you're left with sentinel. It's what you have.


If he goes at least 2 level of war wizard he will have + 4 to constitution save along with proficiency and probably +2 to constitution I think he should be good on holding concentration. He doesn’t even need to roll a save below 26 points of damage done.

Of course he’ll have to decide to whether use the +4 to saves or Absorb Elements since he can’t do both.

Obviously if you can get fire resistance that would help a ton.
He only gets the +4 as a reaction-the +2 is from 10 levels of war mage, he only has 4. An ancient red dragon deals 45 damage on a successful save with the fire breath, average, which is a DC 22 concentration check. If he saves against the fire breath it's still a 50-50 shot. If he doesn't save, the DC is straight impossible-I've played characters that can make DC 45 Concentration checks with high rolls, but it requires an incredibly deep investment and help. He certainly can't do it.

For these reasons, fire breath is just too likely to break haste concentration, so he cannot risk casting it on himself. If he does, he should just absorb elements anyway-at the best, he's reduced the damage to 1/4, or down to 20ish, which means he makes the save on a 4 or 5.

[TumulorumFossor]

An ancient red dragon deals 45 damage on a successful save with the fire breath, average, which is a DC 22 concentration check. If he saves against the fire breath it's still a 50-50 shot. If he doesn't save, the DC is straight impossible-I've played characters that can make DC 45 Concentration checks with high rolls, but it requires an incredibly deep investment and help. He certainly can't do it.

For these reasons, fire breath is just too likely to break haste concentration, so he cannot risk casting it on himself. If he does, he should just absorb elements anyway-at the best, he's reduced the damage to 1/4, or down to 20ish, which means he makes the save on a 4 or 5.

Your point still stands. But for clarity's sake, the enemy is an Adult Red Dragon. Which is "only" 31 pts damage. With the Dex save. Yikes.

Also, given the need to lockdown the dragon as much as possible, wouldn't it actually make sense to have BOTH Barbarian and Fighter (EK) Sentinel?

Note CONFIRM Heroes Feast is a GO! So this Red Dragon Bounty Hunter has teammates and will put 4 into War Mage, the rest into EK. I'll try and post it tonight or tomorrow for Sunday's session.

Thanks again everybody. Learning a lot from this (probably futile but fun) exercise!

[MrCharlie]

Your point still stands. But for clarity's sake, the enemy is an Adult Red Dragon. Which is "only" 31 pts damage. With the Dex save. Yikes.
That does change the math so that you can theoretically make the save as a war mage and are much more likely to make the save if you take half, but again, you can't reliably do that.

[Corran]

MINIMAL communication with party. Not even sure I'm supposed to be doing it.

But it's a Red Dragon. We need every break we can get.
We wont tell anyone.:smallwink:


Lobbying cleric for Heroes Feast as a challenge to come up with a better use for a sixth level spell in this context. Twould be YUGE!
With three pc's attacking AC hard, and with two of them in melee, there's no better option. Heal comes close with a barbarian in the party in such a fight (due to resistance from rage and due to the dragon's high attack bonus which makes hp tanking more appealing, every hp healed on the barbarian will count a lot), but there's no beating heroes' feast (can still use heal with the 7th level slot if needed). Maybe there are other good options in the cleric's list, but so far I cant think of one.


Barbarian intends to Jump his way around if i understand his veiled communication...
Heh. Always had potions of jumping (and climbing) on my 3e paladins just in case we had to fight a dragon. Never went well for me, but your friend might be more lucky.

====================================

Alright, now that we know a few things more. My primary goals as an EK fighter in this fight, would be the following (in order of significance):

(1) Make the dragon accessible to the barbarian's weapon.
(2) Try not to need much of the cleric's healing, which ideally should be directed to the barbarian who heals for double.
(3) Do damage to the dragon.

Specifics

(1) You need the barbarian contributing both in damage and in tanking hits if you want to win this fight. But for that to be true, you need to help the barbarian get into melee with the dragon. Depending on the dragon's positioning at the start of the fight, this will require of you to shove, or to grapple, or even both. If the dragon is airborne, you need to shove it prone so that it falls to the ground (assuming no high altitude, that happens, despite the dragon having a flying speed). That might be enough if the barbarian plays before the dragon and can get there in one turn. But if the barbarian cannot get there in one turn, or if the dragon plays before the barbarian, then you also need to get down to where the dragon landed, and grapple it too. If the dragon starts on the ground, then you just need to grapple it. Either way, you need enlarge for this.

Now, enlarge lasts only for one minute, so I doubt your DM is going to allow you to enter the fight with it already pre casted (if you're allowed though, go for it). So you'll probably need to use it during your first turn in combat. Meaning that you'll need action surge during that first turn to both enlarge yourself and do all the grappling and/or shoving required. That's your 2 actions gone. You've only got a move action and a bonus action left for getting close to the dragon (and a reaction). And that bonus action cannot be a leveled spell (like misty step), since you want to be using (one of) your action(s) with another leveled spell (enlarge). Arcane charge (the EK's 15th level feature) grants you a free action non-spell 30 feet teleport, which will help with getting close to the dragon during the first round. With a base speed of 30, you'll be able to pull of your power move if the dragon is within 60 feet of you. So, you need to improve on that a bit, and you also want to go first if you can, so that the dragon wont have the option to increase that distance. Hence. Enter the fight with expeditious retreat already on you if that's allowed (duration of 10 minutes, so it's easier to justify pre casting it), for a bonus action dash (which you'll use before you cast enlarge on your self and thus drop concentration on expeditious retreat). So now you can use your power move even if the dragon is 90 feet away at the start of combat (30 move, 30 bonus action dash, 30 teleport from action surge/ arcane charge). You can increase this by another 20 feet (so up to 110') if you have already pre casted longstrider (1 hour duration). Haste is a lot better than these for movement buffing, but it doesn't work well in this case cause you'll have to drop concentration on it in order to enlarge yourself (which will just stun you for the turn and prevent you from doing what you want to do). So, here's how my first turn would play out, and let's assume that I've got both expeditious retreat and longstrider buffing me, and let's assume that at the start of my turn the dragon is airborne and anywhere within 110 feet of me. I use my move and my bonus action to dash (thanks to expeditious retreat) for a total of 80 feet (thanks to the additional movement buff from longstrider). Then I use my action to cast enlarge on myself. Then I use action surge which allows me to teleport another 30 feet, putting me next to the dragon. So now that I am next to the dragon, I spend my action (granted from action surge) to attempt to shove the dragon prone (I'll have advantage on my athletics checks thanks to enlarge, but lets go over the odds for that later). Let's say I manage to shove the dragon prone with either my 1st or 2nd attack (I have a total of 3). So now the dragon is falls to the ground and takes some falling damage. I deactivate my flying speed causing myself to fall to (at worst case scenario if the DM does not allow that, drop prone midair to start falling), and when within 50 feet of the ground I spend my reaction with featherfall so that I can land without taking damage (and ideally without going prone myself too). I've got one (or more attacks) remaining, so I use it (them) for another athletics check to grapple the dragon if the barbarian cannot get there before it is the dragon's turn, or to just attack the dragon if the barbarian can get there and attack the dragon. ps: Speed is important. You want to do all this in one turn, cause you dont want to risk losing enlarge (ie action and slot) to a breath attack, which is very likely to happen if you dont reach the dragon during your first turn.

For this plan to work well, you need to succeed on your athletics checks against the dragon for one, and you'll also need to be able to get next to the dragon, which aside for combat set up on the DM's part (about which you cannot do much), translates to going before the dragon does (in which case it could just choose to create a lot of distance from you). So aside for being good with your athletics checks, you'll need to roll well at initiative (though generally you'll all want to roll well on initiative, as you dont want for the dragon to gain extra turns). With enlarge you'll have advantage on your athletics checks against the dragon, so assuming proficiency in athletics and a STR score of 16, that puts you at 81% chance of having the dragon grappled and prone at the ground at the end of your turn if it started in the air, or at 99% if it started on the ground, with a chance of maintaining the grapple during the dragon's turn (assuming it attempts to break free once per turn; rules are silly here, not allowing the dragon to combine multiatttack with basic combat options) at 77% (and this last is important only if the barbarian cannot get to the dragon before the dragon's turn). Now, these chances are critical to keeping the dragon in place till the barbarian arrives, so it's important to succeed at every such task that may come up. So you want to boost these chances. But given this is a 1 round thing, I am thinking that you dont really need to go out of your way to grab prodigy for expertise on athletics just for that. Having lucky rolls available would suffice I believe. So yeah, grab lucky (you'll need it for the dex saves too later during the combat, so it's very very far from a wasted feat). And, as I mentioned previously, you might really need to go first, and either way you definitely desire to go first. Lucky can help with initiative, but we are overstretching it, so I am thinking alert too.

After round 1, it is very important to keep the dragon from maneuvering and finding a good spot to unleash it's breath while also managing to get out of the barbarian's reach (which is what you worked for in the first place). It would be really great if you could just change the silver weapon from a greatsword to a longsword, so that you can keep the dragon gappled (and possibly make it use its breath only on you; barbarian is flanking, archer and cleric try to stay in cone formation with you) for as long as you can. Sentinel will help with that, but let the barbarian take it (along with lucky, for increasing the chance of landing those OA's, since he cannot use reckless with them; this is important, you need the barbarian taking both these feats in order to build on your contribution; you brought it down, now he has to keep it in place, otherwise what you did will be all for nothing). You wont have the reactions or the defenses (hp and ac) to support it (while the barbarian does, and he doesn't need his reaction either). Take it if you must, but I think there are better choices due to how I imagine this fight playing out. Not taking sentinel relates with (2).

(2) You need to defend two fronts. AC and dex saves. I am assuming that the cleric will take care of the fear effect with heroes feast. So, for AC, things are simple. You wear a plate, you take the defense fighting style, and you spend your reactions with the shield spell (if you need to bring the dragon down from the sky, you first round reaction goes to feather fall, and if the dragon uses its breath on you, another reaction goes to absorb elements). This means that you might be very already low on hp once you'll be able to start using shield (and low on slots two, but you'll have more than enough). Nevertheless, you need to hold as much as you can, so that you wont draw too much healing away from the barbarian who heals for double. Now, the dragon will hit an AC of 19 (fullplate and defense fs) 80% of the time. So lots of damage. And it will hit your shielded AC (of 24) 55% of the time. I cannot advise dodging when a recklessly attacking barbarian will be fighting next to you (since the dragon can just focus on him), but dont entirely discount it (cause dropping unconscious, say by the AoE winged attack is worse than staying up and dodging, cause the former demands of your cleric to commit actions and resources to heal you. So, you have to be the judge of that (and if you end up dodging at some point, remember that dodging not only puts the dragon's attacks at disadvantage, bring its hit chance at 64% and at 30% against your non-shielded and shielded AC respectively, but it also gives you advantage on your own dex saves (which the dragon can attack both with its breath and with its legendary action wings option; which can knock you prone and give the dragon advantage on attacks).

For dex saves, things are also simple. Pick resilient dex, and hope you wont need to spend (m)any luck dice on initiative (pick alert) and on your athletics checks against the dragon (most likely you'll have to spend just one), so you can have rerolls on dex saves (against breath and wings) if you have to. Remember that you also have two uses of indomitable, but once you use indomitable you must use its roll. So if it's for something important, use lucky first, and then indomitable. Since you dont need wisdom (assuming the cleric buffs with heroes feast), and since you dont need intelligence or charisma for anything I can think of, you'll have enough points to start with a good dex (14 or 16, resilient dex included). Let me mention feats quickly.

You've got 5 feats. I'd take lucky, resilient dex, alert and possibly warcaster. As for the last one, I dont see anything that stands out. You could make it sentinel (mainly as a risk mitigation in circumstances I dont think they will occur, due to your lack of reactions and to how possible it will be to go down relatively quickly), or better take something else, like a +2 STR. I dont see anything standing out for your 5th feat pick, but maybe I am missing something. Maybe magic initiate, for access to one more non abjuration/evocation spell since you are only limited to 3 picks, and ideally you'd need 4 or 5 (but depending on the initial set up and on how your DM rules on pre casting, you might not need this).

(3) Not much to say here. Just attack. With a +3 weapon you'll be able to deal some decent damage with your 3 attacks (since that +3 helps both with accuracy and with damage). If enlarge lasts long enough, you'll be adding an additional d4 with each successful attack, so every little helps. This is not your priority, and both the barbarian and the ranger will help here. And that's in part thanks to you, cause if you are successful, you are helping the barbarian engage in melee and you are helping the (presumably) archer ranger stay out of harm's (breath included) way. If your defenses manage with a bit of luck to hold decently enough, you are helping the cleric use their heals effectively (ie on the barbarian), thus helping the barbarian keep dealing damage and being conscious so that he is able to take over battlefield control duties from you (assuming he has both sentinel and lucky, to land those OA's that will immobilize the dragon should it attempt to flee to the air and cause serious problems). You are an crucial piece of your group tactics. And while damage will be important, it's also your third priority IMO for this battle.

ps: Browsed quickly the wizard's list on beyond for any low level bonus action spells. Spirit shroud (UA, but I think it's one of the Tasha's options, and hopefully it's still a bonus action cast) is an option (good damage buff) for when you'll no longer need to grapple (ie for when the barbarian arrives in melee). You'll have the slots to use it once or twice if you need to, but it will be a pain to find room for it in your spell list. In case pre-buffing (expeditious retreat, longstrider) is not allowed, you could add it. Given the option, I'd stick with the speed buff options, cause it will be critical to be able to reach the dragon during your first turn.

That's what I would do at least. Whatever you end up doing, good luck!

[TumulorumFossor]

Corran,
Working off your script.

First: fricking AWESOME. Reads like a bank heist plan. Just a great read!

Second: looks like you are suggesting EK does not MC after all, despite access to Heroes Feast due to the use of the Arcane Charge.

Will get character online asap...

Not sure I follow: "It would be really great if you could just change the silver weapon from a greatsword to a longsword, so that you can keep the dragon gappled (and possibly make it use its breath only on you; barbarian is flanking, archer and cleric try to stay in cone formation with you) for as long as you can."

Also more intel from the DM: "You should coordinate all preparatory spells. Your party estimates you will encounter the dragon about 10-15 minutes after entering the lair."
So I'm reading that as good news: prebuff allowable. Bad news: dragon might be flying in/hovering overhead with much distance to cover before the EK can try to land the quick grapple.

Here's what we have. Problems: spell selection. I should only have THREE Spells Known that are not abjuration/evocation, (3rd, 8th, 14th levels of EK), but this build has FIVE: Expeditious Retreat/Longstrider/Feather Fall/Enlarge, all of which are transmutation & Spirit Shroud (necromancy). I have not completely populated the Spells Known, which should be 3 cantrips and 10 spells (7 abjuration/evocation and 3 any school).
Spellbook is generally screwed up. Too many. Wrong school distribution. Gotta work on it.

Attributes aren't optimized. Of the 5 ASI's, 3 are used for feats of Alert, Lucky, and Resilient:Dex), leaving 2 ASIs (or +4 to stats).

How about Grappler instead of Alert?
ABOVE ADDRESSED PER CORRAN'S POST IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING.


Character Sheet Version 2.0

Race: Githyanki (DM constraint)
Class: EK (DM constraint), level 15

Str15 (+2 Race, +1 ASI)=18
Dex15 (+1 Reslient Dex)=16
Con15 (+1 ASI)=16
Int08(+1 Race)=09
Wis08
Cha08

Save Proficiencies: Str, Dex, Con
Proficiency Bonus: 5
HP 139
AC 19 (plate and Defense Fighting Style)

Traits:
Darkvision
Githyanki Psionics
Fighting Style: Defense
Second Wind
Action Surge
Extra Attack (x2, 3 total)
Indomitable (x2)
Weapon Bond
War Magic
Eldritch Knight
Arcane Charge

Feats:
Alert
Lucky
Resilient: Dex
War Caster

Equipment:
-+3 Greater Silver Sword (Weapon (greatsword), legendary (requires attunement by a creature with psionic ability).
This magic weapon grants a +3 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it. While you hold the sword, you have advantage on Int, Wis, and Cha, saving throws, you are immune to being charmed, and you have resistance to psychic damage. In addition, if you score a critical hit with it against a creature's astral body, you can cut the silvery cord that tethers the target to its material body, instead of dealing damage. (DM Constraint: For red dragon bounty hunters, attempting to do this against red dragons results in failure and destruction of the sword per agreement between Vlaakith and Tiamat.)
-Plate
-Winged Boots

Githyanki Psionics:
All Int spells, not requiring components:
Cantrip: Mage Hand (invisible).
Jump spell every long rest.
Misty Step every long rest.

Spells Known: 3 Cantrips, 10 Spells (7 abjuration/evocation; 3 any school) + psionic abilities:
0:
-Mage Hand (psionic)
-Blade Ward
-Light
-Ray of Frost
1:
-Jump (psionic)
-Absorb Elements
-Expeditious Retreat
-Feather Fall
-Magic Missile
-Shield
2:
-Misty Step (psionic)
-Continual Flame
-Enlarge/Reduce
-Shatter
3:
-Lightning Bolt
-Wall of Water

Skills:
Acrobatics (Dex)
Athletics (Str)
Perception (Wis)
Stealth (Dex)

[Corran]

Second: looks like you are suggesting EK does not MC after all, despite access to Heroes Feast due to the use of the Arcane Charge.
Yeah. As much as I would love something like bardic inspiration for this fight, I think arcane charge is more important (being able to rely on heroes feast made the decision even easier btw, cause now I dont have to rely on bardic inspiration, heroism, or arcane deflection for countering the dragon's fear effect, since HF does that for me and everyone else already). Since this doesn't look like the typical cage fight where opponents start within striking distance of you (or you could make it so, if for example the dragon starts up to 110 feet above you and you play first), I think you need that extra burst of speed. In a way, it determines who goes first. If you are able to pull off your opening move from say, 110 feet away (*), that means that you dont have to end your turn within 90 feet of the dragon (which will give the dragon a chance to approach you within 80 and strike you with 3 attacks with its 10 feet reach). Similarly, if the dragon wants to open up with a breath attack, that means that it can choose to decide the timing of the engagement (since it can move 80 and breathe fire up to another 60 in a cone, for a total of 140), but... If you dont end your turn closer than 110' to it, this also means that it cannot run away (for giving its breathe more time to recharge) to anywhere further than 90 feet from you. Which means that with the additional movement from arcane charge (and assuming expeditious retreat is still running; if the dragon has the space to hit and run with breath attacks, you cannot afford to lose concentration on expeditious retreat at this point, so you need to go guns blazing on that save, ie absorb elements to reduce the damage taken from the breath, and thus the dc of the concentration, and then both lucky and indomitable; otherwise the dragon will kite you) you can catch up to it instead of giving it as much time as it would want for its breath to recharge. Not to mention that you can try to make it painful for the dragon to have to open with its breath from maximum, or from close to maximum range (by using cover or creating distance between you in respect to the dragon's position, so that the dragon would have to move closer for an effective breath attack, which might mean that you get to do your thing before the dragon uses its breath. I am not sure I am doing a good job describing this, but essentially arcane charge helps your melee's initiate combat in more favorable terms. And if you exclude the breath (which you have to try and counteract with cover at the initial phase of the engagement (ie before the melee's get in there), then it's completely on your terms. Half the encounter is how you'll engage it, and a good speed burst will make it more likely to force the dragon to use its breath ineffectively, or for you to be the one who strikes first. Hopefully both.

Pull out a battle mat and try out the engagement phase of a mock combat between the dragon and 4 adventures. Place them 200 feet apart, roll initiative, and play the dragon as if it would want to get the first hit on them. Once with its breath, and once with its full attack sequence. This will certainly make you understand my point if I didn't make it clear enough, but it will also give you ideas about how your group might want to engage as a whole.

Now, depending on the specifics of the encounter set up (initial distance and environment/ most notably things to use as cover), there is a chance that you may not need arcane charge that much. But that's a chance I would not be willing to take.

(*) Enlarge will change your size from medium to large, which means you'll occupy a 10' by 10' space (ie 4 squares) instead of the one square you were occupying as a medium sized character. I am not sure if there are rules about how you must place your new 10x10 figure on the map (dont think there are any), but it's possible that this transformation can earn you 5 feet of movement during your opening combo. Might be something worth asking in the RAW thread. If that's the case, wherever I say 110 feet, replace with 115 feet.



Not sure I follow: "It would be really great if you could just change the silver weapon from a greatsword to a longsword, so that you can keep the dragon gappled (and possibly make it use its breath only on you; barbarian is flanking, archer and cleric try to stay in cone formation with you) for as long as you can."
When you have someone grappled, that means that you only have one hand free with which you can attack. So while you can hold your heavy weapon (greatsword) with one hand, you can definitely not use it with just one hand to attack someone. You need to keep the dragon grappled till the barbarian arrives. Depending on how well you coordinate with the barbarian (ie something like, ''follow my movements from the ground''), and depending on initiative, assuming you are successful in dropping the dragon on the ground and grappling it, you'll need to hold the grapple till the (sentinel, lucky) barbarian engages in melee. This will most likely be anywhere between 0 and 2 turns. During those hypothetical turns you wont be able to attack with a greatsword. Now, this is not a big deal, because during this time, all you really care about is maintaining the grapple (**), and the dodge action helps with that (while attacking wont). But when the barbarian arrives, you'll have to start attacking, and now it's a problem that you wont be able to do that with a greatsword while maintaining the grapple. Now, releasing the grapple at that point is less of a big deal than it would be if the (sentinel, lucky) barbarian was not there (because now the barbarian can take over battlefield control). But keeping the dragon grappled is a good safety net (because the barbarian can still miss with a sentinel OA, even with the lucky reroll; there's even a way for the dragon to bypass the movement restriction imposed by a successful sentinel OA, that is by reading an action to move away after its turn has ended, but that's a little gamey and I dont imagine your DM doing that; and it might not even be worth it in this case). That's why I would prefer it if I had a silvered longsword instead of a greatsword, so I wouldn't have to release my grapple to start attacking when it's time for that. Not the end of the world though, as long as your (sentinel and lucky; did I highlight this enough?) barbarian is not too unlucky with his sentinel OA's.

Btw, grappling the enemy on the same turn you drop it on the ground, means that the dragon will be prone as long as you maintain the grapple. So, this means that the dragon's attack will have disadvantage (not a huge deal when it targets the barbarian, but important when it targets you, especially if you can use shield with your reaction). And it also means that attacks against the dragon by anyone within 5 feet of it will have advantage (not a huge deal for the barbarian, but at least it means that he wont have to use reckless attack, so that may end sparing him some damage dealt to him, considering the disadvantage on the dragon's attacks too; decent benefit for you). And attacks against the dragon by anyone more than 5' away from it will have disadvantage (that may be bad for your archer, but if the ranger picks up the crossbow expert feat, they could attempt to get within 5' of the prone dragon and attack it with advantage, and assuming that, keeping the dragon prone, ie grappled, becomes very worthwhile; but to do that, and since logically you would want to start attacking at least when the barbarian shows up in melee, you'll need a longsword instead of a greatsword). Though not to lose focus, the most important part is that keeping the dragon grappled provides an important safety net which you may regret not having, should the barbarian be unlucky with hitting with his OA's. The side effect is that this can prove a decent combat boost (especially if the ranger takes CE and shoots from point blank), since it can potentially give advantage to the ranger's attacks, and since it allows the barbarian to be a bit more carefree about how he'll use his reaction, ie in some cases he might be free to use it for damage (sentinel reaction attack) instead of keeping it in case he needs it for a sentinel OA, as long as the dragon is grappled.

(**) You need to keep the dragon grappled till the barbarian can get there. Among other probabilities, I mentioned the chance of the dragon breaking free should it use its action to contest your grapple (and how a potential reroll from lucky could help you here). I forgot to mention how else, and logically how it's going to be more likely for the dragon to attempt to break that grapple. And that is, by dealing you damage, thus forcing you roll a concentration check to maintain concentration on the enlarge spell. And if your concentration breaks, you shrink back to medium size, which means that the (huge) dragon is automatically not grappled anymore by you (cause now it's a size difference by 2 units). So, there are two ways for the dragon to attempt to deal damage to you. One is with its multiattack, and the other is with its breath (assuming you didn't bait it to spend it already or that it hasn't recharged yet). Anyway, that's to say that warcaster is more important than I gave it credit for in my previous post, so I would definitely take it. And to remind you that these concentration checks will be important enough to consider spending a lucky die should you need to, and after that an indomitable die should you also need to. But the best way to counteract this threatening scenario, is to coordinate as best as you can with the barbarian to be in a position to get as soon as possible next to where you'll drop the dragon. As a side note, I wouldn't be surprised if you end up spending most of you lucky and indomitable dice during the round you'll engage. You need lots of things to go right, so these rolls will be important enough for you to want to exhaust every chance you'll have to succeed on them.



Also more intel from the DM: "You should coordinate all preparatory spells. Your party estimates you will encounter the dragon about 10-15 minutes after entering the lair."
So I'm reading that as good news: prebuff allowable. Bad news: dragon might be flying in/hovering overhead with much distance to cover before the EK can try to land the quick grapple.
Much distance is not a bad thing necessarily. I mean, ideally you want the dragon within 110 feet, provided that you go before it on initiative. But much distance is not bad, and it's certainly better than being within 110 feet and going after the dragon on initiative. Too great a distance means you have to rely less on initiative actually. It also gives you a chance at trying and baiting an inefficient use of a breath. As long as you have a good speed burst, and you coordinate with your allies your movements well (ie, the barbarian, and ideally the CE ranger too, can get asap next to where you'll drop the dragon), anything starting distance greater than 140 feet wont necessarily hurt you. A bad scenario is if the dragon is whithin 115-140 feet (because this starting distance favors it somewhat), or if it's within 140 feet and it plays before you do. This is somewhat tricky to explain. Running the engagement phase of a mock combat will surely help you in how to approach this encounter. Even ignoring the environment and the fact that flying is involved, just put the miniatures in a 2d battle mat and see what kind of distance you (and your allies) will want to have from the dragon at the end of your turns, so that you'll engage favorably (ie first blood in melee, trying to make the breath less effective in a cover-free environment).

With 10-15 minutes, longstrider works for sure, but expeditious retreat is a gamble. Dont drop it, cause you really need it to engage in favorable terms. Just find a way to make it work for you and your DM.



Here's what we have. Problems: spell selection. I should only have THREE Spells Known that are not abjuration/evocation, (3rd, 8th, 14th levels of EK), but this build has FIVE: Expeditious Retreat/Longstrider/Feather Fall/Enlarge, all of which are transmutation & Spirit Shroud (necromancy). I have not completely populated the Spells Known, which should be 3 cantrips and 10 spells (7 abjuration/evocation and 3 any school).
Spellbook is generally screwed up. Too many. Wrong school distribution. Gotta work on it.
Longstrider, expeditious retreat, enlarge. Feather fall. Damn, you need all 4 of them.
Wait, there is a way. Take enlarge, expeditious retreat and feather fall. Convince the ranger to take longstrider and to cast it on you. You need it. Without longstrider, you can still engage favorably when it comes the dragon's melee attacks at reach (cause you still can shove and grapple it from further away than it can attack you in melee, so that's the same as getting you one extra turn), but it will be able to kite you with its breath (assuming there is enough room for that), and it makes it more difficult to bait it to use its breath ineffectively, or more likely (since the former depends on other factors too) to use its breath in the first place, the closer you'll have to get in order to attempt your opening combo. So, yeah, take the other 3 and count on the ranger for longstrider (might be good to use it on the barbarian too, just in case this might end up translating to the barbarian getting in melee reach with the dragon one turn sooner; doubtful, but not impossible). Either way, even if it was only to save you some slots, it's worth it for the ranger to be the one to pick it up, who will have less pressure on his spell slots anyway.

Everything else regarding non abjuration/evocation is nice but not necessary. I wouldn't be too upset about missing on the other options. Because although they might be good, they would not be essential for the plan I'd have in mind.





Attributes aren't optimized. Of the 5 ASI's, 3 are used for feats of Alert, Lucky, and Resilient:Dex), leaving 2 ASIs (or +4 to stats).
Add warcaster. In my previous post I didn't highlight its importance, because I failed to see it. But I hope I did in this post (previously). I'd definitely want to attempt to keep the dragon grappled till the barbarian gets there (assuming a change from greatsword to longsword is possible, even after the barbarian gets there), and depending on initiative and movement, this will most likely involve maintaining concentration on the enlarge spell. So yeah, warcaster is a must IMO.



How about Grappler instead of Alert?
Alert is only important in two cases. First, if the dragon starts anywhere between 5 and 140 feet from you. Second, if the dragon attempts to use stealth on order to gain a surprise on (some of) you. If these conditions are not satisfied, you dont need alert for anything. But if they are satisfied, and you allow the dragon either to gain a surprise attack on you, or to go before you if it's already within breath distance (80 + 60 = 140), then you might wish to have alert (either to negate surprise, or to give you better chances at not going after the dragon on initiative). Alert is kind like arcane charge and all your movement buffs in a way. You may end up not needing them. But if you do, and you dont have them, you are toast. You need to engage in good terms if you hope to win the battle. If the dragon enters the fight with a serious advantage, I dont see how you could turn it around. It's your choice. Well, everything is your choice, but I mean that alert is picked as a potentially very necessary precaution. So, I dont want to say that you definitely have to pick it, because if you end up not needing it, you may think it's a bad feat. And it's not. It's a great feat, but its usefulness is situational in the way I tried to describe. I'd pick it, cause the potential negation of a huge disadvantage in this fight matters more than a guaranteed but minor advantage (like if I went for something like a +2 to STR or CON).

Grapple is not super important. Since chances are that you'll grapple the dragon after having it knocked prone, you'll have advantage on attacks against it. So will the barbarian. And so will the ranger if they end up taking CE (ie the crossbow expert feat) and proceed to shoot it from point blank. So the benefits are not great (at best you are canceling disadvanate on the archer, assuming they stick to shooting from range, but at the cost of giving advantage on the dragon when attacking you; and you dont want that, you want the dragon to attack the barbarian who'll have more effective hp than you will; to say this more generally, the dragon has good enough reason to focus you, you dont want to add anything to those reasons). More importantly, you wont be able to keep grappling when enlarge goes away (due to loss of concentration). Because enlarge will eventually go away. You really need it till the barbarian gets there. After that, it will be great while it lasts, but it wont be the end of the world if you eventually (and logically) end up losing concentration on it. So no, I wouldn't consider the grappler feat.




Race: Githyanki (DM constraint)
Class: EK (DM constraint), level 15

Str 14 (+2 Race, +1 ASI)=17
Dex 14 (+1 ASI, +1 Reslient Dex)=16
Con 14 (+2 ASI)=16
Int 11 (+1 Race)=12
Wis 11
Cha 8
I'd drop wisdom to 8. You wont need to count on wisdom saves for anything. Perception is important only if the dragon is hiding prior to combat. In which case, you need alert, not a +1 to perception (and alert makes perception irrelevant under most DMs). Int is not really needed either for anything I think of, so ight as well dump it too. With the racial boosts and with resilience dex, you could start with a STR 16, DEX 16 (resilient), CON 14. Now, I've only decided on 4 of the 5 feats I would take if I were in your place. So, in theory that leaves an ASI to be used for boosting stats. Assuming I couldn't find anything better to do with it (and currently I cannot think of anything that I would really need), I would just start with a STR 17, DEX 16, CON 15 (27 points spent; wis and cha at 8, int at 9 because gith), in order to use that last ASI for boosting STR and CON to 18 and 16 respectively.

Hmm, maybe medium armor master is worth considering. Though it's that against a +1 to both STR and CON, so I dont know. Depends on how much you (as a party) could make a stealthy approach work to your benefit.


Equipment:
-+3 Greater Silver Sword... In addition, if you score a critical hit with it against a creature's astral body, you can cut the silvery cord that tethers the target to its material body, instead of dealing damage.
That's a scary weapon.


Githyanki Psionics:
All Int spells, not requiring components:
Cantrip: Mage Hand (invisible).
Jump spell every long rest.
Misty Step every long rest.
That could be useful for approaching the dragon stealthily, assuming scattered areas of cover and a lengthy and careful stealthy approach. Unlikely, but you never know.



Spells Known: 3 Cantrips, 10 Spells (7 abjuration/evocation; 3 any school)
0:
-Mage Hand (psionic)
-Booming Blade
-Green-Flame Blade
-Ray of Frost
Drop green flame blade for something else (maybe blade ward, just in case you need it at some point and you prefer it to just dodging; doubtful), cause the red dragon is immune to fire. BB might be useful. Ray of frost has too small range. I'd change it with something else that targets AC, and that has a range of at least 80' (but ideally 120'). Chill touch is the only one that comes to mind. Wouldn't expect to use it, but just in case.


Spells Known: 10 Spells (7 abjuration/evocation; 3 any school)
(assuming ranger picks up longstrider)
1) Feather fall (non abj/evo)
2) expeditious retreat (non abj/evo)
3) enlarge (non abj/evo)
4) absorb elements
5) shield

After that, it does not make much of a difference IMO. Maybe...

6) magic missile (bypasses AC, has a good range, can be used point blank at no disadvantage)
7) Continual flame (assuming you dont go with a stealthy approach, this saves someone needing the light cantrip or having to hold a torch)
8) shatter (you'll probably be in some kind of cave, so maybe there are some interesting possibilities about maybe trying to cause a partial collapse)
9) Lightning bolt maybe
10) Wall of water?

I wouldn't expect to rely on anything from 6-10. They are more of a 'just in case' thing.
Counterspell and dispell magic are both great spells, but are you expecting the dragon to also be a spellcaster?



Skills:
Acrobatics (Dex)
Athletics (Str)
Insight (Wis)
Perception (Wis)
Yeah. Pretty much. I dont imagine you would need insight for anything, so I'd take stealth in its place. I dont know if the DM will allow you the option to surprise the dragon, but given the chance, you should at least try it. Yeah, using stealth on heavy armor is not great, but the ranger could help with that (with pass without trace), in which case every little bonus point counts, hence proficiency in stealth checks. In which case you'll also need darkvision (anyone playing a race that cannot see in the dark, so the ranger would have to accommodate for that as well). On second thought, the dragon can see further than any of you (even with darkvision from the ranger on), so it might be best if everyone just forgot about stealth and hiding and all that. Though, played fairly, someone in your group has to take care of fixing the lighting conditions (send in multiple unseen servants with torches, or cantrip light arrows and shoot them in first, etc), assuming an unlit big underground area. Assuming you dont want to see the dragon fire before you see the actual dragon.

Bonus question: Do you know if by any chance your cleric will have the death domain?

[TumulorumFossor]

Corran:

-Does Blade Ward work against monsters as it is supposed to be against "Weapon Attacks" and it is, after all, called "BLADE Ward"?

-Ranger is getting Longstriders! Yay!

-Convinced Barbarian to get Sentinel! Yay!

-Couldn't convince Barbarian to get Lucky (you know what I mean)! Boo!

-Cleric is Life Domain, not Death. He's a War Caster. "I can Heroes Feast and give at least one person Prot Energy. All of us unless its concentration. Right now my plan is to prebuff everyone, then pop Holy Aura and try to last as many rounds concentrating it that I can."

-Dropped Booming Blade for Light to light arrow as prebuff for Cleric who has no Darkvision. Good thinking. :)

-Don't know if the dragon is casting spells.
See post above for Character Sheet 2.0

[da newt]

For a one shot vs a single foe w/ Great Sword and GWM a MC w/ Barbarian might be very handy - rage damage and resistance, ADV on dex saves, reckless, subclass ...

Ancestral Guardian might be very handy. Bear Totem is simple but effective. Berzerker would give 4 att/turn.

Yes it will keep you from casting, but the benefits may outweigh the costs.

11 EK / 4 Barb or 12/3 would work.

It's a fairly blunt option, but effective.

[Corran]

-Does Blade Ward work against monsters as it is supposed to be against "Weapon Attacks" and it is, after all, called "BLADE Ward"?
Yeah, I think it works. If I am not mistaken, melee weapons attacks are something different (in fact, something more) than melee attacks made by a weapon. So, melee weapon attacks include claw or bite attacks and the like.

Either way, the usefulness of blade ward (even if you can combine it with warmagic, but at the same time despite being able to boost your AC with something like a shield spell), is very uncertain when comparing it to dodging, or to just attacking 3 times (with a +3 weapon), especially in this fight. It is something that may be useful if you are out of spell slots and the dragon is about to focus on you with melee attacks (even more if you think it's very likely for the dragon to have advantage), and at the same time you are betting that blade ward will be enough to keep you up for a round longer (so essentially winning time for your archer to bring it down). It's something that may come up in the latter stages of this fight (assuming it drags out that much), and something that you mostly have to play by ear (cause tracking down the limits under which using blade ward would be better than the alternatives is a pain and very prone to variance).


-Ranger is getting Longstriders! Yay!
Great, great.


-Convinced Barbarian to get Sentinel! Yay!
Awesome!


-Couldn't convince Barbarian to get Lucky (you know what I mean)! Boo!
Heh. Hopefully the barb is up to some effective jumping shenanigans that will make up for missing on a sentinel OA. Otherwise, wish those sentinel OA's connect. Barbarians.... big dumb babies that will show their worth only if everyone plans around camouflaging their big weaknesses.


-Cleric is Life Domain, not Death. He's a War Caster. "I can Heroes Feast and give at least one person Prot Energy. All of us unless its concentration. Right now my plan is to prebuff everyone, then pop Holy Aura and try to last as many rounds concentrating it that I can."
Hmm, I think I see now why the cleric had second thoughts about heroes' feast. Although it is the right choice using HF, you can't leave the save against fear to chance in this battle. So it's holy aura, regeneration and heal competing for two slots. It's a gamble, because holy aura is better than the other two, but provided it lasts long enough and also provided the positioning restrcition (need to be within 30' to benefit allies, so potentially vulnerable to breath attacks) wont hurt them. Freedom of movement and death word could also be useful for prebuffing, but they seem to know what they are doing. Ray of enfeeblement would be an interestng option (assuming death or grave) for if/after loss of concentration on holy aura, given that if it hits it's one guaranteed round of debuffing the dragon's melee capabilities, so that's why I asked for domain.
ps: Prot from energy is concentration unfortunately.


See post above for Character Sheet 2.0
Will do, and edit this post if I want to add anything after that. But before I do that, I thought of a potential weakness in your tactics.

I mentioned previously that after you'll drop the dragon, you'll also need to go down there and grapple it too if the barbarian cannot get there before the dragon's turn (when the dragon could just choose to fly back up). So there's the potential problem of the concentration checks on maintaining enlarge (and thus the grapple) in this scenario. And while you'll have warcaster, lucky and indomitable backing you here, and also the dragon's melee attacks will be at disadvantage cause it will be prone -or at no advantage if it manages to knock you prone with a wing attack), there is the problem of if the dragon chooses to use its breath attack on you at that round. The problem here is because at this turn you wont have aa reaction available for absorb elements, since you are presumably using it on feather fall. So the problem is twofold. You wont be able to mitigate the breath's damage, and secondly and even more importantly (since this equates to getting the barbarian into melee with the dragon), you it will be a lot more difficult to succeed on the concentration check needed to keep yourself enlarged and thus the dragon grappled and on the ground (this last assuming that the barbarian cannot get next to it till it's the dragon's turn). The best way to solve this, is by choosing (if you have enough movement) to land on the other side of the dragon, meaning that if the rest of your party attacks from the south of the dragon, you need to land on the north of the dragon. So if it chooses to use its breath on you (assuming it has not spent it, or assuming a quick recharge), then it is using it on you and only on you. The alternative is for someone else to take feather fall so that you wont have to spend that turn's reaction, but that's also risky because it demands of someone to sacrifice good positioning (eg cover) just to be close to where you'll be landing (also requires some guessing, so it's not safe). Anyway, this may not even come up, but if you can, try to land in a way that when the barbarian engages you'll be flanking the dragon (you use that to mitigate the effect of the breath weapon, and potentially to ensure better chances for maintaining that grapple).


I am curious to learn how this will go. Especially if this all ends up being a failure by something we didn't think of, cause then you've got to know what that was. But even if it's to realize that something was not as strong as we might have suspected, understanding why is also interesting.