Metamagic Adept - Useless for non-Sorcerer?

[RogueJK]

The new Metamagic Adept feat from Tasha's has me a bit puzzled.

It grants you two Metamagic options, and 2 spell points per day. Period. You can't generate additional spell points by burning spell slots like a Sorcerer can, and you can't even use your 2 unused Spell Points to regain a 1st level slot like a Sorcerer can.

So with only a maximum of 2 daily spell points, it limits you to:
2x Careful spells per day
2x Distant spells per day
2x Empowered spells per day (only useful if you have a high CHA too)
2x Extended spells per day
NO Heightened spells
1x Quickened spell per day
2x Subtle spells per day
2x Twinned cantrips or 1st level spells per day OR 1x Twinned 2nd level spell per day
1x Seeking spell per day
2x Transmuted spells per day
(or a combination of 1x each of two 1 point options per day)

As a result, I'm struggling to envision a scenario where it would be worth a non-Sorcerer spellcaster to spend an entire feat on this. Maybe an Infiltration-focused Arcane Trickster or Gloomstalker or a Shadowy Social Influencer Bard or Enchanter that want to get off a couple Subtle spells per day? Or a non-Evocation Wizard who wants to Extend their Mage Armor and then be able to toss out a lone Careful Fireball? Even those seem like kind of a stretch for cost vs. benefit. Not really worth an entire feat.

(But obviously, it could be a solid choice for a Sorcerer to take, to gain 2x additional Spell Points and two additional Metamagic Options. Especially for a multiclassed Sorcerer like a Pal2/SorX who wants to catch back up in Spell Points.)

Maybe I'm missing some obvious use that would justify spending a feat for a non-Sorcerer caster?

[Gtdead]

I can see some value for a Tempest Cleric, to doublecast maximized Call Lightning once per day. Only for high levels though. Cleric is ASI starved.

[Kane0]

2x Careful spells per day
2x Empowered spells per day
2x Extended spells per day
2x Subtle spells per day


All these appeal to me, plus maybe Twinning in some circumstances. Its not the passive goodness of Expertise or -5/+10 but i’d say it compares well to Lucky and the like.

[RogueJK]

I can see some value for a Tempest Cleric, to doublecast maximized Call Lightning once per day. Only for high levels though. Cleric is ASI starved.

What are you refering to when you say "doublecast" Call Lightning?

If you mean Twin Spell, it doesn't apply to Call Lightning, as it doesn't target a single creature. And they don't have enough Spell Points to Twin a 3rd level spell anyway, which would cost 3 Spell Points.

[Gtdead]

How would they "doublecast" Call Lightning? Twinned doesn't apply to Call Lightning, as it doesn't target a single creature.

Quicken Call Lightning as a bonus action, and use normal action to do damage again. The normal action isn't a spell, so it's legal.

[RogueJK]

I see. Using your Bonus Action to cast a Quickened Call Lightning, then your Action to call down another bolt, getting you two lightning bolt strikes in one round.

Interesting trick for a single-round nova damage once per day, but hardly worth a feat, IMO.

[Spiritchaser]

2 x subtle spells a day would be pure gold, and well worth it on a great many casters

The others might have situational applications but nothing as dramatically, universally appealing.

[RogueJK]

2 x subtle spells a day would be pure gold, and well worth it on a great many casters


Yeah, that's the best use I could come up with. Even then, it would require the right campaign featuring a heavy dose of infiltration and/or social intrigue to justify the cost of a whole feat.

[Gtdead]

I see. Using your Bonus Action to cast a Quickened Call Lightning, then your Action to call down another bolt, getting you two lightning bolt strikes in one round.

Interesting trick for a single-round nova damage once per day, but hardly worth a feat, IMO.

Yea it's really not worth the trouble, except perhaps a lvl 20 oneshot where you create a Cleric 18/Fighter 2 and throw 3 maximized bolts for up to 300 damage (lvl 9+conditional). I mean, it's fairly impressive for a Cleric, but it's not something I'd do in a normal game.

[solidork]

Sometimes instead of doing the most numerically powerful thing, it's more fun to be able to do something unique that almost no one else can do.

Subtle is cool on a social or sneaky caster, but also great for someone who specializes in fighting other mages - they can't counterspell you.

Extend is interesting on classes with lots of buffs like Cleric. Extended Aid is quite potent! Double the healing from Aura of Vitality!

[JackPhoenix]

Both Subtle and Extend would be well worth the feat. Other metamagic you'll generally want to apply more times per day.

[RogueJK]

Subtle is cool on a social or sneaky caster, but also great for someone who specializes in fighting other mages - they can't counterspell you.

Good point.


Extend is interesting on classes with lots of buffs like Cleric. Extended Aid is quite potent! Double the healing from Aura of Vitality!

Also useful for Death Ward.

[Corran]

I think it's a really strong feat. And I hate that I like it, because it kind of screws sorcerers, if only just a little (but that's another conversation entirely). I'd definitely want that feat on any non-evoker wizard. As others said, subtle can be great when a golden opportunity presents itself (usually in the social pillar, at least from what I can think so; but a subtle counterspell could go a long way too). And careful. Careful spell is also great, especially for non-evokers. Now when I want my wizard to drop a nice AoE when my enemies are nicely engaged with my melee allies and are all in fireball formation, I can go for something like a fear spell (or hypnotic pattern, or confusion), instead of having to rely on the niche slow or fall back to some non-AoE spell that might not even be suited all that well to the occasion.

I dont think it's op, since a feat is supposed to be powerful and 2 sp is not all that much. But I definitely think it's a very strong choice. Adding a little sorcerer (and probably my favorite parts) to my wizard definitely sounds appealing (and wrong IMO).

[Gignere]

Good point.



Also useful for Death Ward.

Extended Gift of Alacrity would be useful too.

[RogueJK]

All these appeal to me

Keep in mind that Empowered still keys off your Charisma modifier. So unless your Fireball-tossing Evoker or Lightning Bolt-blasting Mountain Druid has much higher than a middling CHA, it wouldn't be worth much, as you'd only be rerolling 1 dice or so.

(Could be handier on a Fiend Warlock blaster, though.)

[Deathtongue]

The big benefit of Metamagic Adept is that now it only takes two levels of Sorcerer to start regularly using Metamagic instead of three. I do plan to grab it for a couple wizard characters I'm playing, since having Subtle Spell and Extend Spell is a big game-changer in certain circumstances. Maybe even Twin Spell + Subtle Spell, depends on how much summoning I want to do.

[Spiritchaser]

Yeah, that's the best use I could come up with. Even then, it would require the right campaign featuring a heavy dose of infiltration and/or social intrigue to justify the cost of a whole feat.

Are there other kinds?

Also helpful for preparing concentration spells when hidden before a surprise, wizard duels to help with counterspell, recasting invisibility or pass without trace when you’re in up to your eyeballs and others might hear those verbals,, and of course the seldom appropriate but hilarious subtle mass suggestion.

[cutlery]

A couple points for an emergency subtle spell when gagged and chained to a wall or otherwise restrained sounds handy. Not an auto-pick, but useful for certain characters - an arcane trickster scout/burglar, say.

Metamagic in general just isn't as strong (perhaps necessarily) as it was in 3e, so I don't think I'd ever take it unless it were free.

[Segev]

A niche case, but it could save somebody one level on a Sorcerer dip for metamagic. Get to second level for Font of Magic, and you have two metamagic options from the feat, and now you can siphon spell slots into sorcery points for your metamagic.

Sorcerer 2/Enchanter 18 might be more desirable, especially at lower levels when trying to get to desirable spell levels, than Sorcerer 3/Enchanter 17.

[Bobthewizard]

I can see subtle being great for a bard or an enchanter in a social campaign.

I would love to have careful 2x per day on my wizards. Being able to place hypnotic pattern or fear right on your allies would be great. Careful is not great for fireball since allies still take 1/2 damage, but it's amazing for hypnotic pattern and fear.

[Bloodcloud]

So, bard gets to careful hypnotic pattern and subtle a whole bunch of spells, which is real good.

Cleric has a bunch of spell that can actually benefit from being extended.

Quickened, even just once per day, is great on say, a paladin, eldritch knight or other gish build that has a strong non-spell action.

[MrCharlie]

It's most useful for the low cost metamagics that you don't plan a build around, like extended, subtle, distant, etc.

For that reason, I think it's working precisely as intended.

[Bilbron]

2 x subtle spells a day would be pure gold, and well worth it on a great many casters

The others might have situational applications but nothing as dramatically, universally appealing.

Exactly what I was gonna say. I'm seriously considering adding it at my next feat just for Subtle Spell. Great for casting during interactions; great for casting from Hiding without revealing my position. Only 2x per day is limiting (would have preferred at least 3 sorcery points to add Heighten Spell as well) but that's what they say about Portent and Chronal Shift!

[Bardon]

Personally I think that it takes one of the defining characteristics of a Sorcerer and makes it available to anyone, which lessens the Sorcerer in my opinion. Metamagic comes from the direct connection to a source of magical power and when anyone can do that too... Again this is purely personal but I would rather they had not created this feat. I'm trying to think of a parallel - while there are feats like Ritual Caster & Magic Initiate, those don't grant an ability that's unique to one class. Maybe if there was a feat that let non-monks use Ki it would be similar.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Personally I think that it takes one of the defining characteristics of a Sorcerer and makes it available to anyone, which lessens the Sorcerer in my opinion.

Kinda agree with this, even though I don't particularly like sorcerers.

I think it's a very good feat for casters, mostly for subtle spell. Honestly, I surprised that the feat gives you two metamagics, since that's as many as a full sorcerer has until 10th level! So, subtle for social situations and super-vital spells in caster battles is obviously great! And 2x/day is probably plenty for social casting situations.

Add in another good metamagic which applies to combat, like careful or extended or quickened, and I think that's just gravy IMHO. The 2 sp/day hurts more here, of course. But it's still a nice tool to have in your pocket.

The fact that you'll have some useful metamagic ability on both combat days, and also social interaction days, seals the deal for me. I want it!

Unfortunately, at the same time it cements my opinion that the sorcerer class itself is better avoided (outside of multi-classes).

[Kireban]

I learned to live with the 2 metamagics i get as a level 3 sorcerer. I dont think that it is smart to throw a feat or ASI just to get 2 more. There are better feats to take.

[Segev]

Personally I think that it takes one of the defining characteristics of a Sorcerer and makes it available to anyone, which lessens the Sorcerer in my opinion. Metamagic comes from the direct connection to a source of magical power and when anyone can do that too... Again this is purely personal but I would rather they had not created this feat. I'm trying to think of a parallel - while there are feats like Ritual Caster & Magic Initiate, those don't grant an ability that's unique to one class. Maybe if there was a feat that let non-monks use Ki it would be similar.

Eldritch Adept has a similar issue. I still think it's a good feat, but I'm biased: now my illusionist build isn't making me feel like I would have been better off dipping two levels of warlock for the first two tiers.

[Kireban]

Eldritch Adept has a similar issue. I still think it's a good feat, but I'm biased: now my illusionist build isn't making me feel like I would have been better off dipping two levels of warlock for the first two tiers.

Eldritch adept+abj wizard is just too much...

[Segev]

Eldritch adept+abj wizard is just too much...

I can see that. Not what I want to use it for, though. (Misty Visions + Illusionist lets you play an Illusionist who creates illusions that are more than random objects at will.)

[Nidgit]

Subtle is cool on a social or sneaky caster, but also great for someone who specializes in fighting other mages - they can't counterspell you.
So ironically a Bard, is what you're saying.

[CMCC]

Yea it's really not worth the trouble, except perhaps a lvl 20 oneshot where you create a Cleric 18/Fighter 2 and throw 3 maximized bolts for up to 300 damage (lvl 9+conditional). I mean, it's fairly impressive for a Cleric, but it's not something I'd do in a normal game.

aren't those all separate rolls? How do you maximize all of them?

[Tanarii]

If it was 1 metamagic and 3 sorcery points, would be it more useful for non-sorcerers?

Would it be worse or better for sorcerers that way? OP or UP?
(Assuming the primary reason for the change was to make it better for non-Sorcs.)

[Citadel97501]

My go to grab would be Transmute spell, as being able to switch an element up on the fly 2 x per day can lead to a lot of really fun spells. Tempest cleric, & Celestial Warlock off the top of my head.

[Bilbron]

A couple points for an emergency subtle spell when gagged and chained to a wall or otherwise restrained sounds handy. Not an auto-pick, but useful for certain characters - an arcane trickster scout/burglar, say.

Metamagic in general just isn't as strong (perhaps necessarily) as it was in 3e, so I don't think I'd ever take it unless it were free.
As a defensive oriented player, I like to imagine offensive combinations that can be used against me and prepare specific defenses (as per my Defense video in part 7 of my "7 Tactical Aspects of Combat" series: https://youtu.be/rrUwtFs4F1c). One of those specific combos is grapple + silence. That combo is absolutely lethal to casters, and there are only two guaranteed defenses - Misty Step on scroll, or Subtle Spell teleport/etherealness/whatever.

PLUS you can cast from Hidden without revealing your position? PLUS you can cast Major Image or Charms DURING an interaction on the sly? Sign me up.

Almost certainly getting this at my next feat.

[Snivlem]

2 x subtle spells a day would be pure gold, and well worth it on a great many casters


This. To me subtle has always been the main appeal of sorcerer. Now anyone can do it. If I was a sorcerer, I would be a little hurt.
I will pick it up at level 8 on my lore bard as my first feat. I was planning to go for resilent or lucky to help with concentration, but no, this is even better. So many spells get so much better when you can subtle cast them, but twice a day is probably enough. I can't wait to level 8.

[RogueJK]

My go to grab would be Transmute spell, as being able to switch an element up on the fly 2 x per day can lead to a lot of really fun spells. Tempest cleric, & Celestial Warlock off the top of my head.

I did forget about the two new Metamagic options from Tasha's. I'll edit my initial post to include those.

However, Tempest Cleric wouldn't have much use for Transmute Spell, without multiclassing. The only spells to which this would apply from the Cleric list would be Glyph of Warding, Spirit Shroud, Flame Strike, or Fire Storm.

Glyph of Warding is only situationally useful, but it could be maximized for 40 damage. Not bad for a 3rd level spell, provided you had a way to force an enemy into triggering it. Slightly more damage than the Tempest Cleric's other 3rd level maximized blast options.

The next two aren't worth spending a spell point to turn into Thunder/Lightning and then Maximize, as you'd only get 8 maximized damage from Spirit Shroud or 24 maximized damage from Flame Strike.

And Fire Storm is a 7th level spell, so won't come into play in most campaigns.

[CMCC]

And Fire Storm is a 7th level spell, so won't come into play in most campaigns.

This is quite exciting though. 70 damage across that much area? Sign me up.

[Segev]

This. To me subtle has always been the main appeal of sorcerer. Now anyone can do it. If I was a sorcerer, I would be a little hurt.
I will pick it up at level 8 on my lore bard as my first feat. I was planning to go for resilent or lucky to help with concentration, but no, this is even better. So many spells get so much better when you can subtle cast them, but twice a day is probably enough. I can't wait to level 8.

To me, it seems that if one specific metamagic is the main reason to play the Sorcerer, then the Sorcerer has already failed at its job of being an interesting class. One class feature might be strongly defining to a class, but it shouldn't be the only thing there IS to a class that makes it worth playing.

[MrCharlie]

If it was 1 metamagic and 3 sorcery points, would be it more useful?

Would it be worse or better for sorcerers that way?
I mean, 2 metamagic options are the only thing that I personally would look for in the feat, the extra sorcery points are really nice but are a drop in the pond.

But in general I don't know why you'd take a feat to give you more choices amongst what you can already do, versus gaining new capabilities entirely.

To me, it seems that if one specific metamagic is the main reason to play the Sorcerer, then the Sorcerer has already failed at its job of being an interesting class. One class feature might be strongly defining to a class, but it shouldn't be the only thing there IS to a class that makes it worth playing.
I mean, if it's big enough, then I can absolutely seeing a class being decimated without it. Paladin without extra attack or Fighter without action surge would be devastating.

The real issue is if one choice of a class feature defined the class, which twin spell gets close to for the sorcerer-but people keep picking other options and building around them, so I guess it's not quite there. It's just that everyone who plays sorcerer comes to it for a different, personally specific, reason.

[Segev]

I mean, 2 metamagic options are the only thing that I personally would look for in the feat, the extra sorcery points are really nice but are a drop in the pond.I think the reason you're looking at it differently than the guy you quoted is because you're thinking of it on a sorcerer. On a sorcerer, the only thing of real value it adds is two more metamagics, which are very valuable to the sorcerer. The 2 sorcery points are...nice, but as you say, a drop in the bucket.

To somebody looking at it for a non-sorcerer, however, the 2 SP are literally all the SP they will ever have with which to fuel their metamagics. So they seem meager. Hence the consideration of maybe having only one metamagic but more SP seeming attractive, if not overpowered, to the guy you quoted.


I mean, if it's big enough, then I can absolutely seeing a class being decimated without it. Paladin without extra attack or Fighter without action surge would be devastating.

The real issue is if one choice of a class feature defined the class, which twin spell gets close to for the sorcerer-but people keep picking other options and building around them, so I guess it's not quite there. It's just that everyone who plays sorcerer comes to it for a different, personally specific, reason.

That's more or less what I was getting at. I don't see any one metamagic as being something to fully build a sorcerer around. I can see it as a reason to splash 3 levels if it's really key to a particular build, and that's also where this feat theoretically shines. Though the 2 SP limit is still pretty sharp, making "building around" the metamagics in question nearly impossible when they're useful 2x per day (or 1/day each) at best.

I'm not even saying this is a problem in a design sense, nor that it needs fixing. I just see it as a reason why building around one particular metamagic just isn't going to work, generally speaking. You need more of the Sorcerer class to be in sync with what you want to do, or you need to be splashing exactly 3 levels of it on a build that has some reasonably strong spellcasting from elsewhere.

[MrCharlie]

I think the reason you're looking at it differently than the guy you quoted is because you're thinking of it on a sorcerer. On a sorcerer, the only thing of real value it adds is two more metamagics, which are very valuable to the sorcerer. The 2 sorcery points are...nice, but as you say, a drop in the bucket.

To somebody looking at it for a non-sorcerer, however, the 2 SP are literally all the SP they will ever have with which to fuel their metamagics. So they seem meager. Hence the consideration of maybe having only one metamagic but more SP seeming attractive, if not overpowered, to the guy you quoted.

That's more or less what I was getting at. I don't see any one metamagic as being something to fully build a sorcerer around. I can see it as a reason to splash 3 levels if it's really key to a particular build, and that's also where this feat theoretically shines. Though the 2 SP limit is still pretty sharp, making "building around" the metamagics in question nearly impossible when they're useful 2x per day (or 1/day each) at best.

I'm not even saying this is a problem in a design sense, nor that it needs fixing. I just see it as a reason why building around one particular metamagic just isn't going to work, generally speaking. You need more of the Sorcerer class to be in sync with what you want to do, or you need to be splashing exactly 3 levels of it on a build that has some reasonably strong spellcasting from elsewhere.
I mean, his post asked if it would be better for sorcerers then, which I was answering. I absolutely agree otherwise.

In general, I build sorcerers around not even one metamagic, but 2-3 metamagic spells. I consider them to be their own spells, because that's the power level of metamagic and how restricted it is. Maybe this sorcerer is built around twinned haste, disintegrate, and careful fireballs. Maybe this divine soul works off of extended Aid, Death Ward, and subtle major image.

Because you know so few spells and each metamagic only applies to certain spells you really need to go throug the list on a case by case, metamagic+spell and metamagic+spell basis.

Having more options in the new books helps drastically, and may let you actually pick metamagics that are applicable to your list and not go through with a fine-toothed comb to get the ones that are applicable to your precise spells.

With other classes, splashing 3 for metamagic is almost never even a consideration. It's just too costly. Maybe as a fun niche build, but I always regret having my spellcasting up to snuff.

The one exception was a character I made who built around twinned and quickened SCAG cantrips, who was an unholy abomination of multi-classes. But outside of something nutso like that which is really riding something this side of a rules exploit, diving into sorcerer for metamagic has been prohibitive-and even now the lack of points still relegates it to some (clever!) party tricks or (brilliant!) nova builds.

[Gtdead]

aren't those all separate rolls? How do you maximize all of them?

A lvl 18 tempest has 3 charges of CD. You spend all of them.

[BamBam]

Custom Lineage (Metamagic Adept) Sorceror 2 / Wizard 18 is the new top dog!

Custom Lineage (Metamagic Adept) Sorceror 2/ Lore Bard 18 is not too far behind!

Custom Lineage (Metamagic Adept) Sorceror 2/ Life Cleric 1/ Shepherd 17 is not too far behind!

vHuman (Mobility) Paladin 2 / Wizard 18 is coming up strong from behind and looking to upset! RoSS. BoSGS.

[CMCC]

Custom Lineage (Metamagic Adept) Sorceror 2 / Wizard 18 is the new top dog!

Custom Lineage (Metamagic Adept) Sorceror 2/ Lore Bard 18 is not too far behind!

Custom Lineage (Metamagic Adept) Sorceror 2/ Life Cleric 1/ Shepherd 17 is not too far behind!

vHuman (Mobility) Paladin 2 / Wizard 18 is coming up strong from behind and looking to upset! RoSS. BoSGS.

Can you expound on your thoughts here?

[BamBam]

Can you expound on your thoughts here?

Do you support delta 4 encryption or shall we proceed with universal protocol?

[Tanarii]

I think the reason you're looking at it differently than the guy you quoted is because you're thinking of it on a sorcerer. On a sorcerer, the only thing of real value it adds is two more metamagics, which are very valuable to the sorcerer. The 2 sorcery points are...nice, but as you say, a drop in the bucket.

To somebody looking at it for a non-sorcerer, however, the 2 SP are literally all the SP they will ever have with which to fuel their metamagics. So they seem meager. Hence the consideration of maybe having only one metamagic but more SP seeming attractive, if not overpowered, to the guy you quoted.
Ya, it was supposed to be the same question twice. First for non sorcerers, then if it was changed for non Sorcs, would that make it OP or UP for sorcerers. Edited for clarity.

I was asking the question because several posters seemed to think that it wasn't enough SP for non Sorcs, and others they were only really interest in subtle.

[CMCC]

Do you support delta 4 encryption or shall we proceed with universal protocol?

Idk what this means but I assume it means you have a lot of thoughts on the subject.

Can you summarize in a sentence or two for each?

[dmartin3d]

Ya, it was supposed to be the same question twice. First for non sorcerers, then if it was changed for non Sorcs, would that make it OP or UP for sorcerers. Edited for clarity.

I was asking the question because several posters seemed to think that it wasn't enough SP for non Sorcs, and others they were only really interest in subtle.

I quite like the possibility of adding to the cleric's action economy with metamagic. At higher levels, mostly past 9th, spell slots available is limited to 1 for 6, 7, 8 and 9 (at least until late stage tier 4), and you no longer get any domain spells after 9th, so adding some versatility to your spell casting and shoring up your defenses seems like a no brainer to me. The metamagic feat with 2 levels of sorcerer is required in my estimation for this build however.

For a Tempest cleric, the metamagic feat gives you access to quicken which as some have mentioned gives you a nova round with call lightning. Very niche but super potent in the right scenario, but you can only do this once per day with the feat. Which is why I don't think the feat is enough. Your channel divinity recharges on a short rest so with the 2 level dip you also have 2 more sorcery points to refresh and do it again, meaning you can max as many times as you can recharge your channel divinity and still have available sorcery points.

Now I don't think that just the Call Lightning exploit is enough to justify taking the metamagic feat and a 2 level dip into sorcerer. But in my estimation a cleric loses some steam after 9/10th level, especially the tempest cleric, and call lightning isn't useful in every combat, so just the one level in sorcerer is very impactful with shield and absorb elements and you can still pick one more metamagic.

Quicken is obvious, you're still going to want to use it on call lightning when it makes sense. But quicken also works really well with a Cleric's bread and butter, spirit guardians. With quicken you can keep up dodge without sacrificing offensive capabilities and still have SG up. And with Tasha's this is especially relevant if you also take Sunbeam, since like call lightning your action is now taken. The whole point is to be able to use your action on CL or Sunbeam to attack with your action and also layer in another spell with quicken, more nova but limited to your 4 sorcery points.

The other metamagics are just gravy really since you can make use of extend, twin, heighten or subtle.

The metamagic feat and a 2 level sorcerer dip on a tempest cleric is a good way to increase your options, gain some very good defensive spells and super potent when you are able to use your double tap trick or break the action economy with a few nova rounds.

[Gtdead]

One other use I had in mind for Clerics (Life this time), was twinning warding bonds while casting regenerate on himself. While it's a bit dangerous against AoE abilities, Regenerate with Disciple of Life ability is bonkers. Also just extending the Regenerate works beautifully. Makes him pretty much unkillable for two hours. It's a high level tactic. Can be done earlier if you can find a way to heal the damage, but while it's potent, Cleric is feat hungry and there are better feats to get early. Metamagic Adept isn't something a low level Cleric should invest in IMO.

[Segev]

Ya, it was supposed to be the same question twice. First for non sorcerers, then if it was changed for non Sorcs, would that make it OP or UP for sorcerers. Edited for clarity.

I was asking the question because several posters seemed to think that it wasn't enough SP for non Sorcs, and others they were only really interest in subtle.

Ah. Yeah, not only is Subtle probably going to be the most-sought-after for non-sorcs (it makes certain normally very DM-dependent spells a lot more useful when the DM's ruling on how obvious spellcasting is/can be doesn't cause all your enchantments, for example, to fail utterly at being useful), but the limited number of SP means it's a 2/day feature at best.

That said, I still can see some niche use for Reach with sniper builds.

...though again, the limited uses per day are so sharp that it's...meh?

I think there needs to be a short rest recharge, or something. Font of Magic is really critical to a Sorcerer's play-style supporting metamagic.

[Kireban]

Ah. Yeah, not only is Subtle probably going to be the most-sought-after for non-sorcs (it makes certain normally very DM-dependent spells a lot more useful when the DM's ruling on how obvious spellcasting is/can be doesn't cause all your enchantments, for example, to fail utterly at being useful), but the limited number of SP means it's a 2/day feature at best.

That said, I still can see some niche use for Reach with sniper builds.

...though again, the limited uses per day are so sharp that it's...meh?

I think there needs to be a short rest recharge, or something. Font of Magic is really critical to a Sorcerer's play-style supporting metamagic.

Why should there be a short rest recharge for the feat while sorcerers dont have it as a class? If a feat is not good just because it got 2 uses per day then what about lucky with its 3?

[Segev]

Why should there be a short rest recharge for the feat while sorcerers dont have it as a class? If a feat is not good just because it got 2 uses per day then what about lucky with its 3?

Good question.

It boils down to a question of what role the feature plays in a build. If I'm, for instance, taking Subtle to make my bard or enchanter-wizard better able to use mind-magic without having everyone around me decide I'm an evil witch who has to be exterminated when I was trying to use magic that's supposed to make people like me more, I don't feel like being able to do so 2x/day is all that much better than not being able to do so at all. Whereas turning around a bad roll 3x/day is still pretty amazing. You can't have a schtick built around "never failing" without it being super powerful. You can have a schtick built around "magic to make people like me" without that...but you can't, really, unless the DM is more generous than most I've played with in terms of letting you cast magic without people deciding they know exactly what it did and negating all benefit of it if it has "like me" as an effect. (This is an issue with single-target spells in groups, more than anything else.)

As to why the refresh, it's because the Sorcerer uses Font of Magic to get it back.

If the SP recharged on a short rest, the sorcerer taking the feat would find them to be different, but not inferior, SP to their own. They get them back every short rest, but can't make them into spells.

[solidork]

I mean, you can use Lucky and still fail. This feat actually does 100% of what it is supposed to do virtually every time. I don't think a short rest recharge is necessary, and it doesn't make sense since that's not how the class it's emulating works except for at extremely high levels.

[Kireban]

Good question.

It boils down to a question of what role the feature plays in a build. If I'm, for instance, taking Subtle to make my bard or enchanter-wizard better able to use mind-magic without having everyone around me decide I'm an evil witch who has to be exterminated when I was trying to use magic that's supposed to make people like me more, I don't feel like being able to do so 2x/day is all that much better than not being able to do so at all. Whereas turning around a bad roll 3x/day is still pretty amazing. You can't have a schtick built around "never failing" without it being super powerful. You can have a schtick built around "magic to make people like me" without that...but you can't, really, unless the DM is more generous than most I've played with in terms of letting you cast magic without people deciding they know exactly what it did and negating all benefit of it if it has "like me" as an effect. (This is an issue with single-target spells in groups, more than anything else.)

As to why the refresh, it's because the Sorcerer uses Font of Magic to get it back.

If the SP recharged on a short rest, the sorcerer taking the feat would find them to be different, but not inferior, SP to their own. They get them back every short rest, but can't make them into spells.

First of all, if one feat that gives you powers from another class is what makes your enchanter wizard "enchanting", then there is no reason to take that subclass. Even as a sorcerer you cant just use metamagic on every spell you cast. It is not like the wizard subclasses that get a pseudo metamagic that they can just spam with their spells without it taking any resources from them.
And second of all, spell points on sorcerers are also the class's only way of getting spell slots back. the class isn't so happy to just burn it all fast on metamagic and then burn slots to recharge it.
Should a wizard with this feat be "a better sorcerer" than a sorcerer without it?

[BoxANT]

thinking about enchantment wizard with subtle casting, and i like it

[MrCharlie]

Good question.

It boils down to a question of what role the feature plays in a build. If I'm, for instance, taking Subtle to make my bard or enchanter-wizard better able to use mind-magic without having everyone around me decide I'm an evil witch who has to be exterminated when I was trying to use magic that's supposed to make people like me more, I don't feel like being able to do so 2x/day is all that much better than not being able to do so at all. Whereas turning around a bad roll 3x/day is still pretty amazing. You can't have a schtick built around "never failing" without it being super powerful. You can have a schtick built around "magic to make people like me" without that...but you can't, really, unless the DM is more generous than most I've played with in terms of letting you cast magic without people deciding they know exactly what it did and negating all benefit of it if it has "like me" as an effect. (This is an issue with single-target spells in groups, more than anything else.)

As to why the refresh, it's because the Sorcerer uses Font of Magic to get it back.

If the SP recharged on a short rest, the sorcerer taking the feat would find them to be different, but not inferior, SP to their own. They get them back every short rest, but can't make them into spells.
Personally, I'd be more inclined to just give sorcerers short rest recharge too and be done with it. Maybe limit the number of regained points to your original over the course of a day.

I still think that the 1 point-cost sorcery points are worth it, if you know what your doing-extended spell for instance lets you extend a major non-concentration buff like Aid or Death Ward, amazing on a cleric-but even if you don't then you can have some fun screwing around with sub-optimal builds if you don't see a pressing need to invest in ABI or other feats for your gameplan.

[Segev]

First of all, if one feat that gives you powers from another class is what makes your enchanter wizard "enchanting", then there is no reason to take that subclass.

I half-agree: the fact that you "need" cross-class abilities to flesh out a subclass to its narrative niche is a design problem with the subclass. I feel, again, similarly about Illusionists and Eldritch Adept (Misty Vale).

I'm not really arguing strenuously for short-rest recharge for Metamagic Adept. I just think 2 SP is a little too few. I think 4 is probably too many, and yet that's about where I'd want it to be able to say, "I can use this enough times per day to consider it part of my schtick, if only barely."

I'm acknowledging a niggling issue, here, not proposing a solid fix. Not really sure whether there is a solid fix.

[Gignere]

Personally, I'd be more inclined to just give sorcerers short rest recharge too and be done with it. Maybe limit the number of regained points to your original over the course of a day.

I still think that the 1 point-cost sorcery points are worth it, if you know what your doing-extended spell for instance lets you extend a major non-concentration buff like Aid or Death Ward, amazing on a cleric-but even if you don't then you can have some fun screwing around with sub-optimal builds if you don't see a pressing need to invest in ABI or other feats for your gameplan.

Extend the night before and wake up now you have full spell slots and 2 spell points for subtle if needed.

[Kireban]

I half-agree: the fact that you "need" cross-class abilities to flesh out a subclass to its narrative niche is a design problem with the subclass. I feel, again, similarly about Illusionists and Eldritch Adept (Misty Vale).

I'm not really arguing strenuously for short-rest recharge for Metamagic Adept. I just think 2 SP is a little too few. I think 4 is probably too many, and yet that's about where I'd want it to be able to say, "I can use this enough times per day to consider it part of my schtick, if only barely."

I'm acknowledging a niggling issue, here, not proposing a solid fix. Not really sure whether there is a solid fix.

I get what you say, but you need to remember that each sp is gained per sorcerer level and isn't there for the sole use of a single metamagic.

Btw, I just want to point that the ability you think that should be fine on an enchanter is given to a sorcerer subclass, and a lot of people feel shocked and appalled from the idea that a sorcerer gets it.

[Segev]

I get what you say, but you need to remember that each sp is gained per sorcerer level and isn't there for the sole use of a single metamagic.

Btw, I just want to point that the ability you think that should be fine on an enchanter is given to a sorcerer subclass, and a lot of people feel shocked and appalled from the idea that a sorcerer gets it.

Yeah, I know about the Aberrant Mind sorcerer. I... eh. I don't care for it, on one hand, but see why others would think it's cool. My issue remains that it's trying to half-heartedly do psionics. That's why it gives them the subtle spell enchantment spells: it's supposed to be mind-magic.



That raises an interesting question: just what level of a subclass feature might "all your spells require no somatic or verbal components" be balanced on a spellcaster subclass? And how many other features might it be worth giving up just to get?

If the Aberrant Mind were the "Psionic Wilder" Sorcerer and got the ability to use any spell without verbal or somatic components, plus a few more spells known, to try to build a "psion" class, how many subclass features should it lose compared ot the Aberrant Mind to justify the expansion of the auto-subtle-spell?

[solidork]

That raises an interesting question: just what level of a subclass feature might "all your spells require no somatic or verbal components" be balanced on a spellcaster subclass? And how many other features might it be worth giving up just to get?

I mean, that's part of the Druid capstone and I think that's about right. I don't think unlimited subtle casting (the kind that lets you do it without any kind of indication that you're actually doing anything) is something that you should get early. Like, there was a UA where you you got to ignore components but had to activate a "I'm doing some obviously magical stuff" mode to do it which was fine.

[Rusvul]

In 3.5, when casting a spell without components was even more punishing (albeit technically more widely available), psionics never required any observable actions from the caster other than pausing for a moment and focusing. They did, however, each have a "display": some kind of sensory indicator that magic was occurring. Something like that could be a good compromise, allowing it to feel more like psionics without significantly affecting balance.

"Whenever you cast a Sorcerer spell, you do so without verbal or somatic components. However, your spells produce an audible hum (normal speaking volume) when you cast them, and are accompanied by your choice of a strangely familiar odor; a shifting, translucent sheen momentarily covering you and the spell's target or area, or a visible flash of light in your eyes and around the spell's area or target. Regardless of which effect you choose, it is clear to all creatures around you that you are the source of the effect. Consequently, creatures that can react to a spell being cast--such as with a counterspell--can do so. However, a creature that makes an Arcana check to determine what spell you are casting does so at disadvantage.

If any effect (other than this one) allows you to cast spells without verbal or somatic components, you may also suppress the sensory displays of your spells, making it difficult to counterspell you and obscuring your role as the source of your spells."

If this were a published 5e feature, it would probably read "you may," but I think having it be an always-on effect is more thematic if we want a true psionic character.

[Kireban]

Yeah, I know about the Aberrant Mind sorcerer. I... eh. I don't care for it, on one hand, but see why others would think it's cool. My issue remains that it's trying to half-heartedly do psionics. That's why it gives them the subtle spell enchantment spells: it's supposed to be mind-magic.



That raises an interesting question: just what level of a subclass feature might "all your spells require no somatic or verbal components" be balanced on a spellcaster subclass? And how many other features might it be worth giving up just to get?

If the Aberrant Mind were the "Psionic Wilder" Sorcerer and got the ability to use any spell without verbal or somatic components, plus a few more spells known, to try to build a "psion" class, how many subclass features should it lose compared ot the Aberrant Mind to justify the expansion of the auto-subtle-spell?

Yep, it is supposed to be mind magic- it is cast with your sp and not with your spell slots. Just like the darkness spell for the Shadow sorcerer.
There shouldn't be a "permanent subtle to all spells" feature to any class. The limitations are there to direct the subclass theme. The evocation wizard is the best example. The subclass feature just yells at you to throw fire balls to the middle of the battle without caring for the position of your party.

[bendking]

I agree with others that Subtle is probably the best choice for this feat. It's also thematically appropriate for an Arcane Trickster, thoughts it's probably not the best choice with how MAD you are.

[Quietus]

For a Cleric, I think I'd be picking Extend and Quicken. Gives you one 'get out of jail fast' card during the course of the day, and if you didn't need that, you can use it to extend buffs before going to sleep. Seems like a win-win. But it's definitely something I'd pick either as a level 1 racial feature, OR after maxing wisdom. It's not worth delaying that sweet sweet spell DC.

[ThatDuckGrant]

I find this hugely useful on a Bard. Particularly for subtle (previously mentioned for social situations or counterspell) and extended Aid (optional bard list) and eventually foresight. EXTENDED FORESIGHT. On Bards, Warlocks, or Wizards. I mostly imagine taking it with the lvl 16 ASI, if not the lvl 19, but on high level non-concentration spells, extend is a ****ing awesome option.

As a side note, I’m a bit underwhelmed by most 7th level spells, so most of the builds I like include spells that upcast to 7th level well. These include Aid, Spirit Shroud, Spirit Guardians, and Shadow Blade. Extending Aid first thing in the morning or last thing before bed with a 7th level slot means 3 members of your party have an extra 35(!) hp for the whole day.

[Ettina]

Personally I think that it takes one of the defining characteristics of a Sorcerer and makes it available to anyone, which lessens the Sorcerer in my opinion. Metamagic comes from the direct connection to a source of magical power and when anyone can do that too... Again this is purely personal but I would rather they had not created this feat. I'm trying to think of a parallel - while there are feats like Ritual Caster & Magic Initiate, those don't grant an ability that's unique to one class. Maybe if there was a feat that let non-monks use Ki it would be similar.

Martial Adept? Gives you two maneuvers and a superiority die.

Funny thing is, I actually homebrewed Metamagic Adept before the UA because I was pissed that 5e took something every caster could do with a feat or two in 3.5 and locked it behind 3 levels of one single caster class. I think I even settled on the exact same number of SP and metamagic options.

[RSP]

It boils down to a question of what role the feature plays in a build. If I'm, for instance, taking Subtle to make my bard or enchanter-wizard better able to use mind-magic without having everyone around me decide I'm an evil witch who has to be exterminated when I was trying to use magic that's supposed to make people like me more, I don't feel like being able to do so 2x/day is all that much better than not being able to do so at all. Whereas turning around a bad roll 3x/day is still pretty amazing. You can't have a schtick built around "never failing" without it being super powerful. You can have a schtick built around "magic to make people like me" without that...but you can't, really, unless the DM is more generous than most I've played with in terms of letting you cast magic without people deciding they know exactly what it did and negating all benefit of it if it has "like me" as an effect. (This is an issue with single-target spells in groups, more than anything else.)

RP-wise it makes sense: Wizards are supposed to be rote casters that operate on S,V,M components because that’s how their magic works, regardless of what that magic is aimed at doing.

I get the desire to want to Subtle for enchantment or illusions, though, in my opinion, that’s solved by multiclassing. This feat helps too now. I don’t view it as a mechanical problem, though, so we probably are approaching it differently.

Likewise, I’ve always hated the Martial Adept Feat for RP reasons: “I know how to disarm someone; but need an hour rest between attempts.”

Would the metamagic feat work better, in your opinion, modeled off of Martial Adept, with a straight-up 1x use per short rest (and no need for Sorc Points)? Obviously, this wouldn’t work for Sorcerers, but that doesn’t appear to be the issue for you.

[Segev]

RP-wise it makes sense: Wizards are supposed to be rote casters that operate on S,V,M components because that’s how their magic works, regardless of what that magic is aimed at doing.

I get the desire to want to Subtle for enchantment or illusions, though, in my opinion, that’s solved by multiclassing. This feat helps too now. I don’t view it as a mechanical problem, though, so we probably are approaching it differently.

Likewise, I’ve always hated the Martial Adept Feat for RP reasons: “I know how to disarm someone; but need an hour rest between attempts.”

Would the metamagic feat work better, in your opinion, modeled off of Martial Adept, with a straight-up 1x use per short rest (and no need for Sorc Points)? Obviously, this wouldn’t work for Sorcerers, but that doesn’t appear to be the issue for you.

That's actually one thing I thought of, though didn't bring up because I'm not really in need of homebrewing a "fix." And it would still be a metamagic you know, so a sorcerer could get the metamagics and also have a free metamagic use every short rest without spending SP; not bad.

[CMCC]

Just went through the spell lists - and im pretty sure this has been mentioned, but i think it needs to be highlighted. Grabbing extended metamagic alone makes this worthwhile for a cleric. Every night you upcast aid and cast death ward using up both sorcery points, and you wake up 8 hours later with both spells at the normal 8 hours and both sorcery points back.

That’s kind of amazing.

And for a really important battle or in a pinch, you can quicken call lightning (tempest) or spirit guardians or whatever.

That seems solid but less good than a free upcast aid and death ward every single day.

[Silpharon]

Just went through the spell lists - and im pretty sure this has been mentioned, but i think it needs to be highlighted. Grabbing extended metamagic alone makes this worthwhile for a cleric. Every night you upcast aid and cast death ward using up both sorcery points, and you wake up 8 hours later with both spells at the normal 8 hours and both sorcery points back.

That’s kind of amazing.

And for a really important battle or in a pinch, you can quicken call lightning (tempest) or spirit guardians or whatever.

That seems solid but less good than a free upcast aid and death ward every single day.

That is kinda amazing. You can also do that with upcasted tiny servant for an army of critters ready for a days work without wasting your top spell slot.

[Kireban]

That's actually one thing I thought of, though didn't bring up because I'm not really in need of homebrewing a "fix." And it would still be a metamagic you know, so a sorcerer could get the metamagics and also have a free metamagic use every short rest without spending SP; not bad.

And this way you will be able to take twinned and every short rest use it on any level of spell you want. Twinned Foresight is the best option. Ofc, not for the sorcerers since they dont have the spell.

[lall]

Switching back to bard (from sorcerer) because of this feat. Two uses of Subtle in my pocket in case I need to Teleport or Word of Recall away (without worries about being countered).

[Silpharon]

Here's a new use case for the feat. Artificer 14 provides means to attune to any item regardless of class. The Sorcerer shards in Tasha's can be neat, but require metamagic to activate. The feat allows these items to be useful on an artificer.

Wish I could say the same for the wizard items...

[Thunderous Mojo]

I can see some value for a Tempest Cleric, to doublecast maximized Call Lightning once per day. Only for high levels though. Cleric is ASI starved.

Under a strict reading of the rules, the tactic above, runs afoul of this:
BONUS ACTION SPELLS
If you want to cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 bonus action, remember that you can't cast any other spells before or after it on the same turn, except for cantrips with a casting time of 1 action.

Now many tables, ignore the rule, "so ask your DM if these double cast combos are right for you". Alas, some DMs are going to deny to fulfill your double cast dreams.

Extend and Subtle are both excellent Metamagic selections.

[Kireban]

Under a strict reading of the rules, the tactic above, runs afoul of this:
BONUS ACTION SPELLS
If you want to cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 bonus action, remember that you can't cast any other spells before or after it on the same turn, except for cantrips with a casting time of 1 action.

Now many tables, ignore the rule, "so ask your DM if these double cast combos are right for you". Alas, some DMs are going to deny to fulfill your double cast dreams.

Extend and Subtle are both excellent Metamagic selections.

I guess he meant to cast the spell as a bonus action and then use the action to call down a lightning. This action is not a spell.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I imagine, Gtdead, referred to it as a "doublecast" for a reason....
..........Perhaps he meant "quickcast with Action".
I certainly, could have misunderstood.

(Edit...it seems I did misunderstand...consider my prior posts a test of the Emergency Rules Quotation System.
In an event of an emergency, please ignore the system)

[Gtdead]

I imagine, Gtead, referred to it as a "doublecast" for a reason....
..........Perhaps he meant "quickcast with Action".
I certainly, could have misunderstood.

Meant quickcast with action. The action economy is described in the spell so I didn't think it would cause confusion with the bonus action spell casting rule.

[Gyor]

2 x subtle spells a day would be pure gold, and well worth it on a great many casters

The others might have situational applications but nothing as dramatically, universally appealing.


Conjurer wizards, Clerics, & Druids like extend spell for their summoned creatures & buff spells.

[Kylar0990]

Here's a new use case for the feat. Artificer 14 provides means to attune to any item regardless of class. The Sorcerer shards in Tasha's can be neat, but require metamagic to activate. The feat allows these items to be useful on an artificer.

Wish I could say the same for the wizard items...

Not sure that would really be worth the effort for a 14th level artificer who could only make the shard proc 2 times per long rest.

[Silpharon]

Not sure that would really be worth the effort for a 14th level artificer who could only make the shard proc 2 times per long rest.
That could be. Astral shard is essentially a free Misty Step, which could come in handy in a pinch. But most the others are too weak to only use twice.

[Mr Adventurer]

There's a Sorcerer item in there that grants 5 Sorcery Points.

[Silpharon]

There's a Sorcerer item in there that grants 5 Sorcery Points.

I think this rule on Font of Magic limits that to only getting 2 (assuming you have metamagic adopt):

"You can never have more sorcery points than shown on the table for your level.'"

[Segev]

I think this rule on Font of Magic limits that to only getting 2 (assuming you have metamagic adopt):

"You can never have more sorcery points than shown on the table for your level.'"

In context, that’s explaining that you can’t use spell conversion to exceed the cap. Exception-based rules say that other sources can change the effective value in the table. Adding five sorcery points from an item is one such thing.

[Mr Adventurer]

Ok so I looked it up: I was remembering the Bloodwell Vial, which:

- requires attunement "by a Sorcerer"
- allows you to "regain 5 Sorcery Points" when you spend a Hit Die to heal

So it might be slightly tricky.

It doesn't specify that you need to be spending that Hit Die to heal as part of a rest, though. I know there's that feat for Dwarves that lets them heal a HD when they take the Dodge action - are there any other ways to heal with HD without a rest?

[Gignere]

Ok so I looked it up: I was remembering the Bloodwell Vial, which:

- requires attunement "by a Sorcerer"
- allows you to "regain 5 Sorcery Points" when you spend a Hit Die to heal

So it might be slightly tricky.

It doesn't specify that you need to be spending that Hit Die to heal as part of a rest, though. I know there's that feat for Dwarves that lets them heal a HD when they take the Dodge action - are there any other ways to heal with HD without a rest?

Catnap is one way 10 minutes to get the benefit of a short rest.

[Silpharon]

Ok so I looked it up: I was remembering the Bloodwell Vial, which:

- requires attunement "by a Sorcerer"
- allows you to "regain 5 Sorcery Points" when you spend a Hit Die to heal

So it might be slightly tricky.

It doesn't specify that you need to be spending that Hit Die to heal as part of a rest, though. I know there's that feat for Dwarves that lets them heal a HD when they take the Dodge action - are there any other ways to heal with HD without a rest?

The word "regain" implicates that you had 5 sorcery points at some point to begin with... Which we would not with the feat. This seems worthy of a question to sage advice.

[Segev]

The word "regain" implicates that you had 5 sorcery points at some point to begin with... Which we would not with the feat. This seems worthy of a question to sage advice.

Indeed, this sounds like it lets you recharge with a short rest. Not like it increases your cap.

[Mr Adventurer]

Indeed, this sounds like it lets you recharge with a short rest. Not like it increases your cap.

Agreed. It's also only once per day, rather than every time you spend a HD. Still, it's the only item I know of that lets you recharge Sorcery Points. (It's also a magical spell focus item.)

At high levels, it may be worth keeping a couple on hand and taking 2-hour rests to attune to the "full" one...

[Segev]

Agreed. It's also only once per day, rather than every time you spend a HD. Still, it's the only item I know of that lets you recharge Sorcery Points. (It's also a magical spell focus item.)

At high levels, it may be worth keeping a couple on hand and taking 2-hour rests to attune to the "full" one...

If you take 3 2-hour rests in a day, it's not even hard. You just refresh after the first rest, re-attune during the second, and refresh after the third. Of course, nothing stops you from attuning two of them, if you don't have anything else competing for the attunement slots.