Tasha's Cauldron of questionable choices

[FoxWolFrostFire]

I just can not get a feel for this book.
I mean one moment I'm like YES! To things like unarmed/thrown fighting style and the ranger/paladin fighting styles for cantrip.

But then the lack of elditch armor, the massive and head scratching adjustments to cantrip versatility. What ever the **** favored foe is supposed to be.

Expanded spell lists but no XGtE spells.
A reprinted updated blade singer but left in the dust oath of the crown and a personal favorite of mine the battle rager.

It seems like every time I get to a part I love I turn the page and just get slapped we a new recorded breaking confused choice in design.

[P. G. Macer]

Yeah, ever since the book briefly leaked on Fantasy Grounds a few weeks ago, the response has been… contentious, to say the least, since WotC seems to have been slightly (or, depending on whom you ask, more than slightly) overzealous in applying the nerf bat to the subclasses and class feature variants from their UA stages.

[MrCharlie]

Yeah, ever since the book briefly leaked on Fantasy Grounds a few weeks ago, the response has been… contentious, to say the least, since WotC seems to have been slightly (or, depending on whom you ask, more than slightly) overzealous in applying the nerf bat to the subclasses and class feature variants from their UA stages.
And not nerfing things that were obviously nutso, particularly in classes that were already strong. Did we really need another cleric domain, let alone one that is just good in all situations?

[FoxWolFrostFire]

Yeah. I just find it impressive they made me WANT favored enemy. Plus just a lot of little other options here and there.
I feel wizards is for SURE favoring some classes and just trying to downplay others.
Fighter, Cleric, and wizards are clear winners of Tasha. While poor Sorcerer got dinner scraps.

[MrCharlie]

Yeah. I just find it impressive they made me WANT favored enemy. Plus just a lot of little other options here and there.
I feel wizards is for SURE favoring some classes and just trying to downplay others.
Fighter, Cleric, and wizards are clear winners of Tasha. While poor Sorcerer got dinner scraps.
I mean, the new archetypes get twice as many spells. Hell, they can even relearn them to other sorcerer spells in a specific school, or even wizard or warlock spells in that school.

It's a huge, huge buff. It's just that they didn't fix what was wrong with all the other poor archetypes.

[GuestEleven]

I agree with the book feeling like a roller coaster of highs and lows from a mechanical standpoint. The controversy surrounding the book and the woke agenda WOTC is pushing has soured a lot of the book for me as well. I don't need diversity crammed down my throat at every waking moment, and half of Tasha's excerpts read like something straight off a 15 year old girls tumblr page.

[KorvinStarmast]

and half of Tasha's excerpts read like something straight off a 15 year old girls tumblr page. Xanathar's little blurbs were also kind of silly, consistently.

When one considers that Tasha is allegedly a mighty magic user whose book about demons is an artifact (overpowered even for that) the 'tone' of the notes just don't line up.

(Mord's notes at least captured tone bettter)

However, let's consider who they think that their audience is. That may inform the tonal dissonance.

[GuestEleven]

Xanathar's little blurbs were also kind of silly, consistently.

When one considers that Tasha is allegedly a mighty magic user whose book about demons is an artifact (overpowered even for that) the 'tone' of the notes just don't line up.

(Mord's notes at least captured tone bettter)

However, let's consider who they think that their audience is. That may inform the tonal dissonance.

I found Xanathar's ramblings to be silly as well, but fitting. I like to imagine him to be that kind of character while still maintaining his edge due to being what he is. This just makes Tasha feel exceedingly unexceptional and frankly uninteresting. Truly a waste of a character I previously wanted to see more of.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Let's keep this related to mechanical, roleplay, or gameplay issues and stay away from real-world social issues.

[WadeWay33]

Fighter, Cleric, and wizards are clear winners of Tasha. While poor Sorcerer got dinner scraps.

I think Fighters kinda needed it. Even with Xanathar’s and battle master, people complain and said they were boring. After this, I don’t think anyone will have that reaction.

[GuestEleven]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Let's keep this related to mechanical, roleplay, or gameplay issues and stay away from real-world social issues.

Very well. I just hope WOTC takes that same sentiment to heart.

[Amnestic]

I agree with the book feeling like a roller coaster of highs and lows from a mechanical standpoint.

Sounds kinda like the PHB...And SCAG...And Xanathar's...

[Xervous]

Very well. I just hope WOTC takes that same sentiment to heart.

I’ll just say marketing. Editing on stuff like 300’ darkvision is a clear typo. Now I’m wondering if the winners/losers of Tasha’s track with the various class popularity polls that have been performed over the years.

[Dienekes]

I think Fighters kinda needed it. Even with Xanathar’s and battle master, people complain and said they were boring. After this, I don’t think anyone will have that reaction.

Don't have the book, but did they give fighters anything beyond the same dirt simple fighting styles from the variant class system and a few more maneuvers? Because if that's it I still will just see the 5e fighter as "less interesting Warblade" unless you take the magic focused subclasses of course, but that just adds to the problem as I see it.

[Bobthewizard]

Fighter, Cleric, and wizards are clear winners of Tasha. While poor Sorcerer got dinner scraps.

That's an interesting take. I think the two sorcerer subclasses might be the most powerful options in the game now. Almost twice the spells known in tiers 1 and 2, some access to 3 spell lists, and a metamagic feat to give even more ability to mold those spells. Even the +X DC magic item is better for sorcerers. An extra 5 sorcery points at Tier 2 is amazing.

So with the new subclass, the feat, and the magic item, a sorcerer at level 9 could have 10 more spells known, 2 more metamagic options, and 7 more sorcery points than pre-Tasha's. That's awesome. I've never played a sorcerer because I could never make it work with their limited spells known. Now I desperately want to play one.

[KorvinStarmast]

Very well. I just hope WOTC takes that same sentiment to heart. Thanks for the giggle. I'd just like to see better editing and better quality control. (See the errata thread already here ...)

Now I’m wondering if the winners/losers of Tasha’s track with the various class popularity polls that have been performed over the years. Based on the link Max offers in his sig, about how they used fan/playtester feedback to make adjustments during play test, probably.

but did they give fighters anything beyond the same dirt simple fighting styles from the variant class system
Rune Knight. Psi Warrior.

By the way, Opinion here: the Monk of Mercy wearing a mask to do its features is {censored} stupid. We won't be doing that unless a given player wants to don the mask since it is fun for them. It is otherwise, IMO, a nice monk kit.

OK, there I said it. I'll not mention it again.

[Segev]

If the Tasha's quotes are...unsatisfying, perhaps we should consider making up some Tasha quotes of our own that we might find more fitting. I don't know a lot about Tasha as a character. Is she supposed to be a deadly serious woman, or a flippant villainess?

The Xanathar's quotes work because he's a sociopathic madman who thinks death is a punchline. He's like the Joker, but a little more overtly childlike while being much smarter in actually managing an organization.

I don't know and won't comment on what's been put into the Tasha book attributed to her. I know she eventually changed her name to "Igglwyv" and is now the mistress/wife of a demon prince (Gratz, I think, but I could have details off and invite correction).

Is she a deadly serious demon-summoner or a flirty witch with a sinister undertone? Is she a dark queen with a sense of her own dignity and grandeur, or is she a hag-wannabe who values ugliness and pain with little care for her own appearance save how it manipulates others?

What sorts of quotes SHOULD we expect for her?

Volo's Guide achieved humor by having the not-quite-funny-on-their-own overstatements and ramblings of Volo snarked at by the normally-not-funny Elminster.

Mordenkainen was...really, not very entertaining in its blurbs, though it was in character.

[Xervous]

If the Tasha's quotes are...unsatisfying, perhaps we should consider making up some Tasha quotes of our own that we might find more fitting. I don't know a lot about Tasha as a character. Is she supposed to be a deadly serious woman, or a flippant villainess?

The Xanathar's quotes work because he's a sociopathic madman who thinks death is a punchline. He's like the Joker, but a little more overtly childlike while being much smarter in actually managing an organization.

I don't know and won't comment on what's been put into the Tasha book attributed to her. I know she eventually changed her name to "Igglwyv" and is now the mistress/wife of a demon prince (Gratz, I think, but I could have details off and invite correction).

Is she a deadly serious demon-summoner or a flirty witch with a sinister undertone? Is she a dark queen with a sense of her own dignity and grandeur, or is she a hag-wannabe who values ugliness and pain with little care for her own appearance save how it manipulates others?

What sorts of quotes SHOULD we expect for her?

Volo's Guide achieved humor by having the not-quite-funny-on-their-own overstatements and ramblings of Volo snarked at by the normally-not-funny Elminster.

Mordenkainen was...really, not very entertaining in its blurbs, though it was in character.

For a perspective you could read the portions the second to last chapter of Savage Tides. She features in there as a deadly, manipulative, no nonsense, don’t waste my time NPC. Pragmatic probably also applies.

[Witty Username]

I just can not get a feel for this book.
I mean one moment I'm like YES! To things like unarmed/thrown fighting style and the ranger/paladin fighting styles for cantrip.

But then the lack of elditch armor, the massive and head scratching adjustments to cantrip versatility. What ever the **** favored foe is supposed to be.

Expanded spell lists but no XGtE spells.
A reprinted updated blade singer but left in the dust oath of the crown and a personal favorite of mine the battle rager.

It seems like every time I get to a part I love I turn the page and just get slapped we a new recorded breaking confused choice in design.
I have not seen anything, but it sounds like the Unearthed Arcana books of old. Rules and advice and options that are not meant to be used at all tables and not necessarily meant to be used together. In an edition that doesn't really play well that idea.

[Dark.Revenant]

I’ll just say marketing. Editing on stuff like 300’ darkvision is a clear typo.

It's not a typo; that's the actual range.

[Trustypeaches]

Yeah. I just find it impressive they made me WANT favored enemy. Plus just a lot of little other options here and there.
I feel wizards is for SURE favoring some classes and just trying to downplay others.
Fighter, Cleric, and wizards are clear winners of Tasha. While poor Sorcerer got dinner scraps.
I don't get this at all.

Sorcerers got two wonderful subclasses that are far and beyond the power level they've been stuck at for years. Huge boon, and it establishes the precedent at tables to create spell lists for pre-existing subclasses even if it isn't explicitly stated.

What did Wizards get out of Tasha's except for the new summoning spells? Order of Scribes is pretty mediocre, and Cantrip Versatility is whatever. There are the new magic items, but I wouldn't consider them "buffs" to Wizards since players have no agency over acquiring them.

Clerics definitely won big here; two excellent subclasses. Fighters got Rune Knight, probably their best subclass for broad utility, and some great new maneuvers.

I think Rangers won big here despite the nerfs to Favored Foe; all the other changed to Primeval Awareness and Deft Explorerer made it in, and both of the new subclasses are excellent. Druids got two excellent subclasses as well, especially Stars.

[Segev]

For a perspective you could read the portions the second to last chapter of Savage Tides. She features in there as a deadly, manipulative, no nonsense, don’t waste my time NPC. Pragmatic probably also applies.

You could work a lot of snark and dark humor into that style. Pity if they didn't go that way.

[WadeWay33]

Clerics definitely won big here; two excellent subclasses. Fighters got Rune Knight, probably their best subclass for broad utility, and some great new maneuvers.

PSI-Warrior also looks pretty good. Mechanically, it doesn’t look super strong because of the lack of a spammable Psionic “cantrip”, but paired with the Telekinesis feat it looks like it could be good flavor wise and mechanically*.


*tbh, I don’t have the best eye for mechanics, so this could be an out there thing and it could be really bad, I just wouldn’t be able to tell.

[Dienekes]

Rune Knight. Psi Warrior.

So nothing new to make the actual base class interesting. And a continued focus on locking interesting mechanics behind magic.

Still think Rune Knight should probably have been a barbarian, getting angry and growing really big just makes sense to me there.

[EggKookoo]

However, let's consider who they think that their audience is. That may inform the tonal dissonance.

My impression is that the book was primarily aimed at new players, or at hooking in new players. I mean there's stuff for long-timers as well, but the voice feels very "so, let me tell you about D&D" to me.

Not a criticism, but it's just different from Xanathar's or the others.

[Darthnazrael]

You could work a lot of snark and dark humor into that style. Pity if they didn't go that way.
In my opinion, that's exactly what they did. I'm not sure what people are complaining about. Some standouts, off the top of my head:

On Armorer Artificers: "Classic artificer logic right here: 'What if, when our invention goes explosively wrong, we're inside it?'

On Twilight Clerics: "I can't believe I'm writing this, but I think I could get behind a faith focused on mood lighting and evening wear."

On Fey Wanderer Rangers: "Do you think a kilt is a vital part of the Fey Wandering aesthetic? And if not, why are you so wrong?"

[Warder]

FWIW, I really disliked Xanathar's quotes. Beholders are supposed to be brilliant and insane, but the tone they wrote for him was that of a moronic teenager.

Tasha's seem better, though I vastly prefer a more serious, less flippant tone.

[Segev]

So nothing new to make the actual base class interesting. And a continued focus on locking interesting mechanics behind magic.

Still think Rune Knight should probably have been a barbarian, getting angry and growing really big just makes sense to me there.

This made me decide to try my hand at one: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622403-Barbarian-Archetype-Hulking-Fury

[KorvinStarmast]

So nothing new to make the actual base class interesting. Not a credible witness.

Don't have the book (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24806113&postcount=14)

I've contacted the guy in my campaign who has a battle master, and have asked him if he'd like a Rune Knight. We'll see.

Still think Rune Knight should probably have been a barbarian, getting angry and growing really big just makes sense to me there. Agree.
Rune Warrior Barbarian would IMO have "felt" very right. But they didn't do that. They went for Wild Magic. And based on my two read throughs of it ... uh, I am not sure.
I'd need to play one for a while to get a feel for if they got it right or not.

Unless one of my PCs dies a permadeath, or I get invited to another play test, odds of me getting to do that are kinda slim.

[stoutstien]

On misses in the book:
Guardian armor artificer- wow the thp was toned down to oblivion. At least 2x proficiency would had been fine but as is it means it's not nearly as useful. Add to that losing shield mean your average battlesmith/artillerist is better equipped to handle damage.

Arcane propulsion armor infusion- really lv 14? This could safely be on the 6th lv list.

Winners

Wild magic barbarian- just wow. They really tuned this into a power option. Surges losing friendly fire is kinda side because it was fun but I see why it was removed. Bolster is 2x proficiency with two amazing options. Not quite a spell slot battery but an extra slot for everyone is huge at lv 6. This subclass doesn't scale much but having a really solid support barbarian is welcomed.

To be continued..

[Witty Username]

Primal Awareness made it in? Cool, its good enough to be PHB errata in my opinion.

[Dork_Forge]

Arcane propulsion armor infusion- really lv 14? This could safely be on the 6th lv list.


I truly don't understand the point of this infusion, who's it meant to be for? It's terrible on a Guardian Armorer, it's not worth the infusion for an Infiltrator and the other subclasses don't really care. It's not even an infusion the party would benefit from...

[stoutstien]

I truly don't understand the point of this infusion, who's it meant to be for? It's terrible on a Guardian Armorer, it's not worth the infusion for an Infiltrator and the other subclasses don't really care. It's not even an infusion the party would benefit from...

Oh it's bad. If it was lower level I could at least see it used just for giggles. If anything it is a small boost of movement speed and a thrown force damage weapon. Lv 1-6 it might be used but even then it is the worse infusion. That is including the new armor of magical strength that got reduced down pretty bad.

[Dork_Forge]

Oh it's bad. If it was lower level I could at least see it used just for giggles. If anything it is a small boost of movement speed and a thrown force damage weapon. Lv 1-6 it might be used but even then it is the worse infusion. That is including the new armor of magical strength that got reduced down pretty bad.

It had the potential to be a cool upgrade for the Guardian Armorer, adding another d8 and a ranged component, instead it's like they just realised they were behind their infusion quota and threw something together without thinking it through.

[stoutstien]

It had the potential to be a cool upgrade for the Guardian Armorer, adding another d8 and a ranged component, instead it's like they just realised they were behind their infusion quota and threw something together without thinking it through.

I figured it was a alternative way of having the arcane propulsion arm outside of Eberron and someone saw very rare and decided to make it a high level infusion without actually looking at it