Help me love the sorcerer

[Klorox]

I'm a bit of an optimizer. I'm not a fan of loopholes or cheese, but I do like building effective, powerful characters.

Wizards are my favorite class. I read about sorcerers, and I think the flavor is really great, but I've always found them a little boring when I play them. The issue could be I've never played one past level 5.

Please help me love the sorcerer!

[Witty Username]

Coffee lock? Or if that's not your cup of tea, you could try shadow sorcerer with smart targeting aoe save or suck.
I feel you on sorcerer vs wizard though, sorcerer doesn't really have much going for it outside of theme (and I am personally not that big on the theme).

[Asisreo1]

Sorcerers are one of the most fun characters for optimizers.

Sorcerers are not the most fun characters for those that enjoy optimized builds.

Optimizing builds are relatively easy compared to optimizing play.

Most people who say they're optimizers really mean they enjoy playing optimized builds.

Sorcerers are good for optimized play because they have a pool of resources that can be exchanged in a way that is tailored to their needs. Its a weaker version of spell points, which already shows its power in the right hands.

This is only good if you enjoy management, though. If you like to feel relatively comfortable with your resources, then sorcerers might ask a bit much. If, however, you like to ensure your spell slots go beyond a regular spellcaster, then sorcerers could fit your needs.

[Kane0]

Sounds like Tasha’s will do you some good with extra spells, better subclasses and the metamagic feat

[Kireban]

Why do you feel the need to love sorcerers? I love playing sorcerers and just cant stand wizards.
Sorcerers most of the time will feel like the underdogs while being compared to wizards. Yes, they can have their moments, but you will always find yourself inferior.
As a sorcerer you have to compromise with your spells, you have less options and you need to pay resources on stuff that wizards just get for free.

Maybe you will be ok playing the aberrant mind, but it is only since they are the first sorcerer subclass that gets a pseudo metamagic for free just like wizards. But only from level 6.

[Klorox]

Why do you feel the need to love sorcerers? I love playing sorcerers and just cant stand wizards.
Sorcerers most of the time will feel like the underdogs while being compared to wizards. Yes, they can have their moments, but you will always find yourself inferior.
As a sorcerer you have to compromise with your spells, you have less options and you need to pay resources on stuff that wizards just get for free.

Maybe you will be ok playing the aberrant mind, but it is only since they are the first sorcerer subclass that gets a pseudo metamagic for free just like wizards. But only from level 6.

I want to play to the classes strengths and get a different flavor than the wizard.

If I can't be convinced, I'll keep on wizarding.

[Amechra]

Sit down and build a Sorcerer?

No, seriously, just play around with the Sorcerer and brainstorm ways that you can use any metamagic you might take.

[FabulousFizban]

Tiefling Shadow sorcerer who takes fire spells (firebolt, burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, wall of fire) named Balrog. Cast your darkness that you can see through, then shoot fire spells out of it. If you can't make that work, I can't help you.

[clash]

Pick a narrow theme and go with it. That's where they shine. You have only a handful of known spells. Instead of struggling to cover as many bases as you can with them just be a pyromaniac and take all fire spells or play the illusionist that only has illusion spells etc.

[Garfunion]

Tiefling Shadow sorcerer who takes fire spells (firebolt, burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, wall of fire) named Balrog. Cast your darkness that you can see through, then shoot fire spells out of it. If you can't make that work, I can't help you.
Don’t forget about flame blade spell that they now have access to according to the new Tasha book.

[Kemev]

I want to play to the classes strengths and get a different flavor than the wizard.

I feel like the biggest strength of the sorcerer is its multiclass potential... 2-3 levels of either paladin, warlock, or tempest cleric make for a dramatically more powerful character than a stand-alone sorcerer.

One of the challenges of these builds is that they don't really come together before level 6 or 7, so if you've only played single class up to level 5, you haven't really experienced it yet.

The other big difference between sorcerer and wizard is that with sorcerer, you're forced to specialize in your role a bit more. There's plenty of roles to choose from that you can excel at, but they do come with opportunity costs... you can't do everything. With wizard, you can change how you play from day-to-day based on what you feel like prepping (assuming your spellbook's well stocked, of course). This doesn't really have anything to do with strength, but if you prefer a flexible character it might explain why sorcerer feels lackluster. Again, not really power related, just preference.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I feel like the biggest strength of the sorcerer is its multiclass potential... 2-3 levels of either paladin, warlock, or tempest cleric make for a dramatically more powerful character than a stand-alone sorcerer.

One of the challenges of these builds is that they don't really come together before level 6 or 7, so if you've only played single class up to level 5, you haven't really experienced it yet.

The other big difference between sorcerer and wizard is that with sorcerer, you're forced to specialize in your role a bit more. There's plenty of roles to choose from that you can excel at, but they do come with opportunity costs... you can't do everything. With wizard, you can change how you play from day-to-day based on what you feel like prepping (assuming your spellbook's well stocked, of course). This doesn't really have anything to do with strength, but if you prefer a flexible character it might explain why sorcerer feels lackluster. Again, not really power related, just preference.

This pretty much sums it up. Tier 2 is definitely a high water mark. Even 1 level of Fighter (Which isn't as strong as some MCs) turned my guy into a tank.
Also I enjoy the social part of the game, so there's that.

[Witty Username]

Why do you feel the need to love sorcerers? I love playing sorcerers and just cant stand wizards.
Sorcerers most of the time will feel like the underdogs while being compared to wizards. Yes, they can have their moments, but you will always find yourself inferior.
As a sorcerer you have to compromise with your spells, you have less options and you need to pay resources on stuff that wizards just get for free.

Maybe you will be ok playing the aberrant mind, but it is only since they are the first sorcerer subclass that gets a pseudo metamagic for free just like wizards. But only from level 6.

What pushes you from wizards?
Mostly curious cause I am not sure what the likability difference is, but then again in terms of fun any spell caster will accomplish that for me so I may be biased.

[bendking]

What pushes you from wizards?
Mostly curious cause I am not sure what the likability difference is, but then again in terms of fun any spell caster will accomplish that for me so I may be biased.
Personally, I don't like how all of them feel near identical. To me, it's a 'generalist' class which is just good at everything, and I don't find that interesting to optimize for.
Of course, power level-wise, they are the strongest class in the game bar none. But they are less interesting flavor-wise, and more importantly: less interesting to build.

Now that Clockwork Sorcerer is out, by the way, you can pretty much build a generalist Sorcerer with how many good staples and spell taxes you can get through his bonus spell list.
If you're purely interested in power level, I suggest you check that one out with Metamagic Adept at 1st level using V.Human.

[sophontteks]

Sorcerers shine where they can cheese. Cheese here is breaking the rules that exist to limit spellcasters. Metamagic is literally designed to circumvent these rules. Based on the OP this class is probably not for you.

For example. Take subtle spell. Why do V, M, and S primarily exist? So wizards can't cast spells in broad daylight in the middle of a crowd.

Well sorcerers don't care.

Hey try subtle casting 'enemies abound' on someone in the middle of a crowd sometime. Grab some popcorn!

Try subtle casting an illusion or, even better, phantasmal force. Get stopped by bandits? PF the bandit leader being attacked by bees. They will probably leave you alone, and take a hefty 10d6 over 1 minute.

Sorcerers break rules and abuse the crap out of a small selection of spells. Again, if you don't like cheesing spells, look elsewhere. They have so frw spells they basically ask "how can I abuse the same spell in this situation?" Rather then picking the right spell for the occasion.

[Merudo]

Wizards are my favorite class. I read about sorcerers, and I think the flavor is really great, but I've always found them a little boring when I play them. The issue could be I've never played one past level 5.


Yep, that's definitely it.

Sorcerers are essentially crippled Wizards for level 1-4. The lack of rituals HURTS terribly. They also don't get enough Sorcery Points to get much done.

At level 5-6, they get better, but still not great.

IMO Sorcerers really take off at level 7+. At that point, they can start doing crazy stuff such as Twinning Polymorph or Greater Invisibility.

Sorcerers also get the possibility to sacrifice weak level 1-2 slots to create level 3-5 slots. So if you have a single major battle incoming, the Sorcerer can throw a ridiculous amount of resources for devastating effect.

[Democratus]

Somewhere in between the short-rest mechanics of the Warlock and the meta-magic of the Sorcerer, that's where I think a true unique sorcerer class could be kit-bashed.

I would really love to have seen an entirely new magic mechanic for sorcerers. Something that didn't use spells at all, but instead was all about shaping elemental forces.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

Sorcerers are one of the most fun characters for optimizers.

Sorcerers are not the most fun characters for those that enjoy optimized builds.

Most people who say they're optimizers really mean they enjoy playing optimized builds

I think this nails it but to help make a distinction I'll say Optimization Builds vs Tactical Play. Optimizing a pure Sorcerer build is pretty boring: just pick the most effective spells. Thematic builds are much more fun as a Sorcerer.

Sorcerer is THE most Tactical spell casters and perhaps class in general. Quicken Spell and Distant Spell meta-magics alone give you so many options that other classes don't have. With Quicken Spells can save your action for things like Dash, Disengage, Dodge, or even Help. This is something no other Spellcaster can do.

While Wizards play pretty much the same 1-20 (blast from the rear), as Sorcerers gain levels (and Meta-magic) they can try a variety of tactics and maneuvers. A favorite of mine is moving to the front to use cone attacks as a Bonus Action, then dashing back behind the line as an Action. The AOE hit-and-run tactic is very satisfying, but it's not even close to the only tool in the Sorcerer's tool kit.

[Corran]

Please help me love the sorcerer!
The beauty of any prepared caster is that you get to change your list in response to different problems. And while that's great, it can be a pain sometimes and/or for some people. Once you build your sorcerer (building one may be stressful of course, due to the very limited amount of known spells), you are up for a more relaxing experience. You dont have to worry if you prepared the right spells for the day or about predicting what's ahead. You just jump into situations and try to do the best you can with what you've got. So, if trading some versatility in favor of trying to build some powerful routines (through the combination of spells with metamagic) sounds appealing to you, then you should definitely give the class another try (so should anyone who doesn't care too much about extensive versatility or who might just prefer routines/ choosing from a smaller set of options). A nice side benefit is that if you put yourself into a position where you have to figure out a solution based on 10 spells instead of 20, is that it's then more likely to figure out niche/clever uses for certain spells that you might not have if you could have instead relied on some other more suitable option (that is part of the 20 spells but not part of the 10 spells in this example).

[noob]

Also with the new sorcerer subclasses you get nearly as many spells as a wizard and more if you take the ritual caster feat so you will not exactly be strained in terms of spell count.

[Kireban]

Also with the new sorcerer subclasses you get nearly as many spells as a wizard and more if you take the ritual caster feat so you will not exactly be strained in terms of spell count.

Yea, but it is much harder to get the spells for your ritual casting, and the wizards' spell list itself is better than the sorcerers'.

[Amechra]

As of Tasha's, 5th level Sorcerers have the somewhat-unique ability to spend 1 sorcery point to reroll any failed ability check. That seem... pretty good... for Counterspell/Dispel Magic, as well as stuff like initiative or fixing an unlucky roll for one of the skills you're semi-decent at.

In general, though, Sorcerers should not be approached as if they were blasters. Sorcerers are at their best in the following situations:

1) When you can't cast spells openly. Subtle Spell is fantastic for spells like Charm Person or Suggestion, where casting it in certain situations might get you into a lot of trouble. You could make feasibly make the argument that a Sorcerer who somehow picked up Expertise in the right skills (by dipping Rogue or something) is going to be better at the social pillar than most Bards.

2) Sorcerers are arguably the best class at using buff spells in the game, thanks to Metamagic. Twinned Spell is the real MVP here - having your single-target buffs affect two people is pretty good, even if you're just spending 1 sorcery point to use Mage Armor on you and the party Rogue. Even if those spells can be upcast to affect more people, Twinning it is generally going to be better unless you really need to affect 3+ people (or you're Twinning Banishment or Charm Monster outside of combat).

3) Sorcerers are also good at side-stepping the action economy. Even if you don't have neat non-spellcasting actions from other sources (like, say, a breath weapon from Dragon Breath), a Sorcerer with Quicken Spell could Dodge with their action and then cast whatever spell they wanted as a bonus action. Cramming more stuff into each turn when necessary is nice.

4) With forewarning, Sorcerers are probably the best class at nova-ing. Take, say, a 10th level Sorcerer. If they wanted to, they could convert all of their spell slots between 1st level and 5th level into 27 Sorcery Points. This would let them rock up to a climactic fight with 9 sorcery points available and six 5th level spell slots, along with four slots to cast Shield with. Sure, you're rarely going to run into that situation, but no other class can shuffle around their spell slots like that.

Sorcerers cannot get the broad and continual level of utility that a Wizard can, but that's not what a Sorcerer is good at. A Sorcerer is good at bending the rules, and you need to pick your spells with that in mind.

---

And don't forget that Sorcerers are the only full-casters who are naturally proficient in Constitution saves, so they save a feat on Resilient (Con). A Sorcerer with War Caster is as good at keeping Concentration as a Wizard with War Caster and Resilient (Con). Sure, you'll probably want to pick up Resilient (Wis) at some point, but that's something that can wait until later (since Wis saves don't really get prevalent until higher levels.)

[Waazraath]

Since 'thematic builds' have been mentioned a few times: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611092-Specialist-casters-%96-build-challenge&p=24484931

[5eNeedsDarksun]

As of Tasha's, 5th level Sorcerers have the somewhat-unique ability to spend 1 sorcery point to reroll any failed ability check. That seem... pretty good... for Counterspell/Dispel Magic, as well as stuff like initiative or fixing an unlucky roll for one of the skills you're semi-decent at.

In general, though, Sorcerers should not be approached as if they were blasters. Sorcerers are at their best in the following situations:

1) When you can't cast spells openly. Subtle Spell is fantastic for spells like Charm Person or Suggestion, where casting it in certain situations might get you into a lot of trouble. You could make feasibly make the argument that a Sorcerer who somehow picked up Expertise in the right skills (by dipping Rogue or something) is going to be better at the social pillar than most Bards.

2) Sorcerers are arguably the best class at using buff spells in the game, thanks to Metamagic. Twinned Spell is the real MVP here - having your single-target buffs affect two people is pretty good, even if you're just spending 1 sorcery point to use Mage Armor on you and the party Rogue. Even if those spells can be upcast to affect more people, Twinning it is generally going to be better unless you really need to affect 3+ people (or you're Twinning Banishment or Charm Monster outside of combat).

3) Sorcerers are also good at side-stepping the action economy. Even if you don't have neat non-spellcasting actions from other sources (like, say, a breath weapon from Dragon Breath), a Sorcerer with Quicken Spell could Dodge with their action and then cast whatever spell they wanted as a bonus action. Cramming more stuff into each turn when necessary is nice.

4) With forewarning, Sorcerers are probably the best class at nova-ing. Take, say, a 10th level Sorcerer. If they wanted to, they could convert all of their spell slots between 1st level and 5th level into 27 Sorcery Points. This would let them rock up to a climactic fight with 9 sorcery points available and six 5th level spell slots, along with four slots to cast Shield with. Sure, you're rarely going to run into that situation, but no other class can shuffle around their spell slots like that.

Sorcerers cannot get the broad and continual level of utility that a Wizard can, but that's not what a Sorcerer is good at. A Sorcerer is good at bending the rules, and you need to pick your spells with that in mind.

---

And don't forget that Sorcerers are the only full-casters who are naturally proficient in Constitution saves, so they save a feat on Resilient (Con). A Sorcerer with War Caster is as good at keeping Concentration as a Wizard with War Caster and Resilient (Con). Sure, you'll probably want to pick up Resilient (Wis) at some point, but that's something that can wait until later (since Wis saves don't really get prevalent until higher levels.)

I'll disagree that Sorcerer blasters are bad. There are builds and metamagics that work. Fire Dragon sorcerers with Empower can cast fireball (the best mid level blaster spell in the game) with roughly 40% more damage than other casters. Empower is cheap (1sp), so you can do that with every casting, and that leaves you another good metamagic to take at the points to use it.

[Sception]

The lowest levels of sorcerer are a bit frustrating due to the lack if useful features beyond daily spell slots, which run out very fast early on. If you're going to be spending much time before level 5, I'd echo suggestions to start with 1 to 3 levels of something else first. Warlock or paladin are classic combos, but bard, fighter, & cleric are also solid options. Honestly, it almost doesn't matter what as long as you can meet the multiclass requirements. Obviously not barbarian though.

[Evaar]

Sorcerers are one of the most fun characters for optimizers.

Sorcerers are not the most fun characters for those that enjoy optimized builds.

Optimizing builds are relatively easy compared to optimizing play.

Agree with this.

OP, take a look at the Wild Magic Surge table. Really read through the possibilities there. Now if you can discuss with your DM to establish that you will be rolling a d20 on every spell cast, or skipping straight to the Wild Surge table while your Tides of Chaos is on cooldown (which it should pretty much always be), then you're setting yourself up for a myriad of tactical possibilities.

It's like a card game with random effects, like Hearthstone. The skill isn't in having an established plan to execute. It's in being able to identify opportunities for tactical play on the fly. You get resistance to all damage for the next minute. You are polymorphed into a sheep for the spell's full duration. A unicorn appears on the field of battle. You cast fog cloud centered on yourself. How do you take advantage of those situations in the context of whatever fight you're in? That alone should be enough to make a character engaging.

Plus you're the party face. Honestly if you want to always be thinking about what to do next, Wild Magic Sorcerer will likely deliver that.

[Kylar0990]

4) With forewarning, Sorcerers are probably the best class at nova-ing. Take, say, a 10th level Sorcerer. If they wanted to, they could convert all of their spell slots between 1st level and 5th level into 27 Sorcery Points. This would let them rock up to a climactic fight with 9 sorcery points available and six 5th level spell slots, along with four slots to cast Shield with. Sure, you're rarely going to run into that situation, but no other class can shuffle around their spell slots like that.



Your math is a bit off here. A sorcerer can only have as many Sorcery Points as their max at any given time so a 10th level sorcerer can only have 10 (12 if you've got Metamagic Adept but those extra 2 can only be use for metamagic).

Loading up on slots ahead of time is doable, but doing it in combat is clunky. It takes a bonus action to drop a spell slot and a bonus action to create a spell slot so for example dropping a 3rd level slots and a 4th level slot to get 7 sorcery points to create 1 5th level slot takes 3 rounds. If done ahead of time a 10th level sorcerer can make it so they have 7 5th level slots.

10th level sorcerer has 2 5th level slots to begin the. Then using 7 of their 10 sorcery points he can create a 3rd one. Next by dropping his 3rd and 4th level slots he can create 3 more. Last he can get the 7th one by dropping all 2nd level slots and 1 1st level slot. At this point he has 7 5th level slots 3 1st level slots and 3 sorcery points to use in what ever coming fight. Not sure what you'd be planning with that, but that may depend on your spell selection.

[Kane0]

I want to play to the classes strengths and get a different flavor than the wizard.

If I can't be convinced, I'll keep on wizarding.

What do you enjoy?

[Klorox]

What do you enjoy?

I enjoy the versatility of the wizard, and, as pointed out above, I've never played a sorcerer past level 5. I really think that might be the issue because it seems like the class comes into it's own when you can fiddle with sorcery points.

[TheUser]

2 things are required to enjoy playing your sorcerer:

1. You must have a niche you wish to fill; be it blasting, crowd control, social manipulation/trickery or buffing. You might be able to fill 2, maybe 3 of these niches at higher levels (when you get your third metamagic at level 10). No longer are you the generalist you're used to in a wizard.


2. You must have another spell caster in the group who can fill in the gaps you will leave (not very hard).

Human Variant with Ritual Caster(Wizard) as their bonus feat at level 1 will probably help you make the transition.

If you want the real shenanigans though, Half-Elf with Actor at level 4 mixed with Disguise Self and Subtle spell is top tier hijinks. If there is already a wizard to cast rituals this becomes an easy choice to make.

Might I also humbly suggest the Draconic Sorcerer with Subtle and Empowered. It has built in mage armor and the +1 hp makes you feel like a d8 hit dice.

Make sure you pick up Firebolt, Suggestion Fireball and Wall of Fire.

Remember to transition out old spells with each level.

If Subtle isn't your cup of tea then careful spell is pretty great for crowd control spells (No more suggestion if you do opt for careful). Hypnotic Pattern and Fear in particular are rather unwieldy and being able to just drop one down without worrying about hitting allies is mint. Synaptic Static is also fantastic; despite still dealing half damage to allies, the crippling debuff is no longer an issue for them and Invoker wizards can't sculpt it anyway because it's an enchantment.

If you get comfortable with things like subtle suggestion and subtle counterspell you'll be hooked though. Disguise self and things like telekinesis, animate objects or even just phantasmal force for assassinations is exceedingly strong.

I suppose now is as good a time as any to plug my guide....

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxHRu80oFd2iSkNLeVBISzZxMzQ/view

[bendking]

I enjoy the versatility of the wizard, and, as pointed out above, I've never played a sorcerer past level 5. I really think that might be the issue because it seems like the class comes into it's own when you can fiddle with sorcery points.
If you enjoy versatility, the Sorcerer is not the class for you. Sorcerers thrive on specialization using their Metamagic.
That said, the Clockwork Sorcerer can get an amazing and rather versatile list if that's what you're into.

[Nhorianscum]

I want to play to the classes strengths and get a different flavor than the wizard.

If I can't be convinced, I'll keep on wizarding.

Sorc is just grotesquely powerful with any degree of play optimization off of the overcast base in tier 2 onwards. Adding in MA and the new origins just makes them feel genuinely oppressive to an unhealthy degree.

Just roll one up and make it to tier 2.

[Asisreo1]

2 things are required to enjoy playing your sorcerer:

1. You must have a niche you wish to fill; be it blasting, crowd control, social manipulation/trickery or buffing. You might be able to fill 2, maybe 3 of these niches at higher levels (when you get your third metamagic at level 10). No longer are you the generalist you're used to in a wizard.


2. You must have another spell caster in the group who can fill in the gaps you will leave (not very hard).

Human Variant with Ritual Caster(Wizard) as their bonus feat at level 1 will probably help you make the transition.

If you want the real shenanigans though, Half-Elf with Actor at level 4 mixed with Disguise Self and Subtle spell is top tier hijinks. If there is already a wizard to cast rituals this becomes an easy choice to make.

Might I also humbly suggest the Draconic Sorcerer with Subtle and Empowered. It has built in mage armor and the +1 hp makes you feel like a d8 hit dice.

Make sure you pick up Firebolt, Suggestion Fireball and Wall of Fire.

Remember to transition out old spells with each level.

If Subtle isn't your cup of tea then careful spell is pretty great for crowd control spells (No more suggestion if you do opt for careful). Hypnotic Pattern and Fear in particular are rather unwieldy and being able to just drop one down without worrying about hitting allies is mint. Synaptic Static is also fantastic; despite still dealing half damage to allies, the crippling debuff is no longer an issue for them and Invoker wizards can't sculpt it anyway because it's an enchantment.

If you get comfortable with things like subtle suggestion and subtle counterspell you'll be hooked though. Disguise self and things like telekinesis, animate objects or even just phantasmal force for assassinations is exceedingly strong.

I suppose now is as good a time as any to plug my guide....

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxHRu80oFd2iSkNLeVBISzZxMzQ/view
To help with the versatility, do not forget cantrips.

At lower levels, cantrips are amazing since you'll have so few spell slots to actually cast your spells. Spells like Minor Illusion and Prestidigation are extremely versatile and taking those leaves room for an attack cantrip like Firebolt and another utility cantrip like Light, Mending, Mage Hand, or Message.

These cantrips are also snappy. They give good effects with only an action compared to the relative waiting that needs to happen with rituals.

People forget to consider cantrips as spells. When you do, you realize that sorcerers have exactly the same number of spells as a bard up until level 10 (where the bard gets 1 more spell/cantrip than sorcerer while they get metamagic).

The cantrips that sorcerers trade for spells known are weaker than spells, but can definitely be spammed more around this tier.

Past level 11, sorcerers soar (some subclasses do so literally). With 3 metamagics, 6 cantrips, 11 sorcery points, tons of spell slots to manipulate and a more comfortable spells known, you can really start feeling like you have game-changing powers just as the wizard does. Where the wizard relies on their versatility of the spell list, you can lean into the versatility of your spells.

Distant Mass Suggestion for 240ft of cult movements, Quicken Sunbeam for a quick 12d8 damage, Heightened Hold Monster, Twinned Greater Invisibility.

Possibilities can be endless for a sorcerer, it just takes creativity and a good sense of tactics.

[Amechra]

I'll disagree that Sorcerer blasters are bad. There are builds and metamagics that work. Fire Dragon sorcerers with Empower can cast fireball (the best mid level blaster spell in the game) with roughly 40% more damage than other casters. Empower is cheap (1sp), so you can do that with every casting, and that leaves you another good metamagic to take at the points to use it.

My one concern with Sorcerer blasters is that they have so few spells known - they really have to commit to blasting in a way that other casters don't have to.

Take a 6th level Light Cleric, Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer, and Evoker Wizard. Let's say they all want to blast with Fireball.


The Cleric literally gets it for free, alongside the other 5 domain spells they have at that point and the 6+Wis other prepared spells they can draw on. We're looking at 15 or so spells here.
The Wizard has 14 spells in their spellbook, and can prepare 6+Int of them at once.
The Sorcerer has to spend one of their 7 spells known on Fireball.


Is being able to deal 40% more damage with Fireball enough to counteract the fact that each spell known is at least twice as valuable for you at this point in your career?


Your math is a bit off here. A sorcerer can only have as many Sorcery Points as their max at any given time so a 10th level sorcerer can only have 10 (12 if you've got Metamagic Adept but those extra 2 can only be use for metamagic).

Loading up on slots ahead of time is doable, but doing it in combat is clunky. It takes a bonus action to drop a spell slot and a bonus action to create a spell slot so for example dropping a 3rd level slots and a 4th level slot to get 7 sorcery points to create 1 5th level slot takes 3 rounds. If done ahead of time a 10th level sorcerer can make it so they have 7 5th level slots.

10th level sorcerer has 2 5th level slots to begin the. Then using 7 of their 10 sorcery points he can create a 3rd one. Next by dropping his 3rd and 4th level slots he can create 3 more. Last he can get the 7th one by dropping all 2nd level slots and 1 1st level slot. At this point he has 7 5th level slots 3 1st level slots and 3 sorcery points to use in what ever coming fight. Not sure what you'd be planning with that, but that may depend on your spell selection.

1) Spend 7 sorcery points to make a 5th level spell.
2) Convert spell slots to refill the points you just spent.
3) ???
4) You have six 5th level spell slots.

My point was that you're doing it ahead of time (hence the "with forewarning" caveat), and I stopped them at six slots because that's how many you can get while still having a mostly full pool of sorcery points (so you can use metamagic on those boosted slots).

[TheUser]

Is being able to deal 40% more damage with Fireball enough to counteract the fact that each spell known is at least twice as valuable for you at this point in your career?


It's more accurate to describe it as +70% on the minimum damage and +20% on the maximum.

Semi-advanced probabilities time.

TL;DR it boils down to consistency not being demonstrated when you only analyze percentages and averages.

Average fireball damage of 28 is an over simplification. It is more accurate to say that in just over ~90% of situations fireball deals 20-36 damage.

Draconic bonus of +4-5 is easy to do.

20-36 becomes 25-41 (or 24-40 if you want to get stingy)

But when empower is factored in, increasing the base line damage of 28 average up to ~33 we must remember that its primarily operating on the low end of our expected values; doing the heavy lifting from the bottom of the spectrum (because you only re-roll low dice rolls).

So while it averages 33 damage, it becomes far more accurate to say that it now does 28-38 damage. Our new low end was our old average and after we factor in Draconic Bonuses it's suddenly a Fireball that deals 34-43 damage.

Your weakest Draconic Empowered Fireballs are as strong as the high end of a normal fireball.

You don't have to worry about rolling badly and flubbing a whole spell slot AND the turn used to cast it.

[Amechra]

That's... not strictly accurate. Your weakest Fireball still deals less than another caster's average fireball, since Empowered Spell doesn't stop you from rolling 1s on the reroll. Sure, the range of likely values goes up, but you still have the same minimum as a Draconic Sorcerer without Empowered Spell, as well as the same maximum.

Let me see if I can follow your logic, though:

Instead of looking at the averages, we're looking at the range within (roughly) two standard deviations from the mean. So instead of looking at it as "Fireball deals 28 damage on average", we're looking at it as "Fireball deals between 19-37 damage roughly 95% of the time." So far, so straight-forward.

However, I'll be honest - I don't actually know how to properly calculate the effects of Empowered Spell. With the average, you can just replace 3.5 with 4.25 for the dice you're rerolling. Care to specify how you're handling that?

[Kane0]

I enjoy the versatility of the wizard, and, as pointed out above, I've never played a sorcerer past level 5. I really think that might be the issue because it seems like the class comes into it's own when you can fiddle with sorcery points.

Yes, having enough SP to work with is a big factor. Another is having the metamagic to make the most of the fewer spells you have. Taling the Tashas Metamagic feat will double your metamagic known for the biggest portion of your character’s career plus an extra two SP on top, dramatically improving your ability to squeeze your spells for all they’re worth. The Tashas subclasses also give you bonus spells which is even better.

If you dont have Tasha’s or dont want to go down that path, Shadow gives you one bonus spell plus a pseudo-metamagic with the hound whereas Draconic gives you a few features that mostly replicate spells that you wont then have to worry about like False Life and Mage Armor. Favored soul on the other hand makes a whole second spell list available to you, so while its just as constrained on spells known you have a somewhat unique abikity to cherrypick from both the arcane and divine sides then abuse both with metamagic.
Wild and Storm magic... eh. You can if you want and they aren’t bad, I just can’t say much about them personally.

So sorcerers generally have less versatility moment-to-moment but more options to explore while building your character. This also means you can mess it up easier, so you do have to know what you want.

If all else fails, ask your DM about spell points. Spell Points with a sorcerer really, really makes you FEEL the way the sorc is described.

[Nhorianscum]

That's... not strictly accurate. Your weakest Fireball still deals less than another caster's average fireball, since Empowered Spell doesn't stop you from rolling 1s on the reroll. Sure, the range of likely values goes up, but you still have the same minimum as a Draconic Sorcerer without Empowered Spell, as well as the same maximum.

Let me see if I can follow your logic, though:

Instead of looking at the averages, we're looking at the range within (roughly) two standard deviations from the mean. So instead of looking at it as "Fireball deals 28 damage on average", we're looking at it as "Fireball deals between 19-37 damage roughly 95% of the time." So far, so straight-forward.

However, I'll be honest - I don't actually know how to properly calculate the effects of Empowered Spell. With the average, you can just replace 3.5 with 4.25 for the dice you're rerolling. Care to specify how you're handling that?

+12% to the average is the rule of thumb for empowered.

A base draconic sorc in tier 2 really does just hit like a truck loaded with other trucks and only really needs two spells to blast effectively leaving plenty of room for BC and Buffing which is where we get our baseline generalist sorc from.

Empowering a 5th level fireball/Sray+twinned empowered firebolt rotation at 7th level is certainly a damage based nova that rivals fully optimized paladins and fighters. Except you're playing a character with 4th level spells and 4-5 spellslots devoted to BC/Buffing/Social shenanigans.

It's hard to say that draconic blasters are bad.

[Kurt Kurageous]

I banned it. No regrets. Why?

Its the most ridiculous thing, seems like the product of the esteem generation.

"I'm special! I didn't study, I don't obey a god (or patron), but I'm entitled to all the power on the same level as the wizard who went to college or the cleric that studied AND prays fervently for their spells. I am more deadly than a bard, who ALSO went to college.

"So I gave up NOTHING to have EVERYTHING along with a bunch of tweaky game-slowing mechanics that all my party members LOVE to hear me talk about in a fight.

"I have a shorter spell list because I can't be bothered to learn (as a player) the spell list like a wizard player MUST. I get the second most used (CHA) stat in the game as my social AND combat skill (suck it, martials!). I get to join the warlock in asking to take a short rest AFTER EVERY FIGHT because my sorc points are ALWAYS USED UP in every fight.

"In short, I'm the best!"

[Amechra]

I get to join the warlock in asking to take a short rest AFTER EVERY FIGHT because my sorc points are ALWAYS USED UP in every fight.

but sorcery points recharge on a long rest though.

[Sception]

Its the most ridiculous thing, seems like the product of the esteem generation.

The wizard and cleric are willful delusions, fever dreams born of inferiority complexes, infantile morality plays that that those in power have power because they 'deserve it' or 'worked for it' or were blessed with it by 'a higher power', that they came to it by being better, smarter, more moral. That the deserving will be rewarded with power and therefore the powerful are deserving. That the world is just by default and thus the existence of power is its own moral justification.

The ugly truth of the world, the truth that the sorcerer and warlock don't hide from, is that those who have power came by it in one of two ways only. Either they were born to it through exactly zero merit of their own, or else they debased themselves and others to steal it. That Power is not merely unjustified but inherently unjustifiable.

[Corran]

The wizard and cleric are willful delusions, fever dreams born of inferiority complexes, infantile morality plays that that those in power have power because they 'deserve it' or 'worked for it' or were blessed with it by 'a higher power', that they came to it by being better, smarter, more moral. That the deserving will be rewarded with power and therefore the powerful are deserving. That the world is just by default and thus the existence of power is its own moral justification.

The ugly truth of the world, the truth that the sorcerer and warlock don't hide from, is that those who have power came by it in one of two ways only. Either they were born to it through exactly zero merit of their own, or else they debased themselves and others to steal it. That Power is not merely unjustified but inherently unjustifiable.
Wait.... Does that make wizards the embodiment of dnd capitalism? Try hard enough and if you are lucky (ie dont die during adventuring), one day you'll have the most powerful spells in existence and more spells than anyone else?:smalleek:
Smite trigger happy paladins are part time workers?
Draconic sorcerers are inheritors of a vast fortune and wild magic sorcerers are people who won the jackpot?
Warlocks are fall guys for organized crime maybe? Might have been carried away a little.

[TheUser]

That's... not strictly accurate. Your weakest Fireball still deals less than another caster's average fireball, since Empowered Spell doesn't stop you from rolling 1s on the reroll. Sure, the range of likely values goes up, but you still have the same minimum as a Draconic Sorcerer without Empowered Spell, as well as the same maximum.

Let me see if I can follow your logic, though:

Instead of looking at the averages, we're looking at the range within (roughly) two standard deviations from the mean. So instead of looking at it as "Fireball deals 28 damage on average", we're looking at it as "Fireball deals between 19-37 damage roughly 95% of the time." So far, so straight-forward.

However, I'll be honest - I don't actually know how to properly calculate the effects of Empowered Spell. With the average, you can just replace 3.5 with 4.25 for the dice you're rerolling. Care to specify how you're handling that?

It mostly has to do with what are we empowering in a standard 8d6 distribution coupled with it's given potential to raise our damage.

Low end rolls not only have a higher chance of having a good amount of dice to be empowered but also stand to gain more damage from a re-roll because they are more likely able to re-roll more dice (there are more 1's and 2's in an 8d6 that becomes 21 than there are in a roll that vecomes 30)

It becomes easier to conceptualize if you think of each sum that you could conceivably roll as an array of values with varying number dice outcome frequencies; not only how likely is that roll to happen but now how often that roll is likely to contain a 1 or 2. You then redistribute along those two ratios and create a whole new distribution.

I like to consider the new average 4.17 (instead of 4.25) because I tend not to re-roll 3's.

So even though we have the same chance of getting say a 1 or 2 from the last time we rolled we also have the same 66% chance to roll better than 1 or 2. If we are making that roll more often and with more potential for improvement on the low end of the spectrum the numbers it creates have gone through a weighted normalization effect (re-rolling a single 1 or 2 has a only a 66.7-83.3% to improve our damage but re-rolling even 1 more of those now has a 89.1%-97.2% to improve our damage and by the addition of the third re-roll it's now a 96.5%-99.95% chance of improving our damage).

And if you recall, the whole point of 21-35 as a damage range is to evalutae the 90% of scenarios. It just turns out that within that ssme subset more opportunitues to improve damage by more fall in the low range

Each die becomes it's own subset of standard deviations but only one third of the time (re-rolling 1's and 2's).

In essence, my weakest fireball is so statistically unlikely it falls out of relevance.

Have I helped to explain it?

Also the guy who's saying empower is only a 12% increase is 100% wrong :P maybe if they discussed their methodology I could do a better job deconstructing it but your average goes from (1+2+3+4+5+6) / 6 = 3.5 to (3.5+3.5+3+4+5+6) / 6 which equals 4.17 or a 19% increase.

[sophontteks]

2 things are required to enjoy playing your sorcerer:

1. You must have a niche you wish to fill; be it blasting, crowd control, social manipulation/trickery or buffing. You might be able to fill 2, maybe 3 of these niches at higher levels (when you get your third metamagic at level 10). No longer are you the generalist you're used to in a wizard.


2. You must have another spell caster in the group who can fill in the gaps you will leave (not very hard).

Human Variant with Ritual Caster(Wizard) as their bonus feat at level 1 will probably help you make the transition.

If you want the real shenanigans though, Half-Elf with Actor at level 4 mixed with Disguise Self and Subtle spell is top tier hijinks. If there is already a wizard to cast rituals this becomes an easy choice to make.

Might I also humbly suggest the Draconic Sorcerer with Subtle and Empowered. It has built in mage armor and the +1 hp makes you feel like a d8 hit dice.

Make sure you pick up Firebolt, Suggestion Fireball and Wall of Fire.

Remember to transition out old spells with each level.

If Subtle isn't your cup of tea then careful spell is pretty great for crowd control spells (No more suggestion if you do opt for careful). Hypnotic Pattern and Fear in particular are rather unwieldy and being able to just drop one down without worrying about hitting allies is mint. Synaptic Static is also fantastic; despite still dealing half damage to allies, the crippling debuff is no longer an issue for them and Invoker wizards can't sculpt it anyway because it's an enchantment.

If you get comfortable with things like subtle suggestion and subtle counterspell you'll be hooked though. Disguise self and things like telekinesis, animate objects or even just phantasmal force for assassinations is exceedingly strong.

I suppose now is as good a time as any to plug my guide....

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxHRu80oFd2iSkNLeVBISzZxMzQ/view
TheUser:
The myth.
The man.
The legend!

Can't wait for you to break down all the new sorcerer stuff. I've been looking and it seems like they got a ton of love.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

It mostly has to do with what are we empowering in a standard 8d6 distribution coupled with it's given potential to raise our damage.

Low end rolls not only have a higher chance of having a good amount of dice to be empowered but also stand to gain more damage from a re-roll because they are more likely able to re-roll more dice (there are more 1's and 2's in an 8d6 that becomes 21 than there are in a roll that vecomes 30)

It becomes easier to conceptualize if you think of each sum that you could conceivably roll as an array of values with varying number dice outcome frequencies; not only how likely is that roll to happen but now how often that roll is likely to contain a 1 or 2. You then redistribute along those two ratios and create a whole new distribution.

I like to consider the new average 4.17 (instead of 4.25) because I tend not to re-roll 3's.

So even though we have the same chance of getting say a 1 or 2 from the last time we rolled we also have the same 66% chance to roll better than 1 or 2. If we are making that roll more often and with more potential for improvement on the low end of the spectrum the numbers it creates have gone through a weighted normalization effect (re-rolling a single 1 or 2 has a only a 66.7-83.3% to improve our damage but re-rolling even 1 more of those now has a 89.1%-97.2% to improve our damage and by the addition of the third re-roll it's now a 96.5%-99.95% chance of improving our damage).

And if you recall, the whole point of 21-35 as a damage range is to evalutae the 90% of scenarios. It just turns out that within that ssme subset more opportunitues to improve damage by more fall in the low range

Each die becomes it's own subset of standard deviations but only one third of the time (re-rolling 1's and 2's).

In essence, my weakest fireball is so statistically unlikely it falls out of relevance.

Have I helped to explain it?

Also the guy who's saying empower is only a 12% increase is 100% wrong :P maybe if they discussed their methodology I could do a better job deconstructing it but your average goes from (1+2+3+4+5+6) / 6 = 3.5 to (3.5+3.5+3+4+5+6) / 6 which equals 4.17 or a 19% increase.

Your last paragraph is a good explanation. I will re-roll a 3 if I can. Tack on the 5 more points for Draconic and you have a solid improvement. The other beauty of this is you only use the sorcery points if it's advantageous; if you happen to roll well nothing is lost.

[TheUser]

TheUser:
The myth.
The man.
The legend!

Can't wait for you to break down all the new sorcerer stuff. I've been looking and it seems like they got a ton of love.

You honor me.

As for the new subclasses both are nutso in the butso; Aberrant mind is a social manipulation god (subtle modified memories wut?) And Clockwork's freebie options for Abjuration and Transmutation from the Wizard and Warlock list are great, seriously possible to have 4 metamagics by level 3 and have enough spells to use them all! I am still unsure how worth it a Tasha's chapter would be given how it's all optional anyway....

[sophontteks]

You honor me.

As for the new subclasses both are nutso in the butso; Aberrant mind is a social manipulation god (subtle modified memories wut?) And Clockwork's freebie options for Abjuration and Transmutation from the Wizard and Warlock list are great, seriously possible to have 4 metamagics by level 3 and have enough spells to use them all! I am still unsure how worth it a Tasha's chapter would be given how it's all optional anyway....
Yeah I thought it was strange they made it all optional, but then I thought about it. Like, feats are optional too, but I've yet to see a game play without them. By graduating this stuff to a honest to gosh published book, I'm betting it's all going to be allowed by most DMs, even those optional extra features (reroll a check for 1 metamagic!)

The new metamagics looked a bit weak though.

[bendking]

Yeah I thought it was strange they made it all optional, but then I thought about it. Like, feats are optional too, but I've yet to see a game play without them. By graduating this stuff to a honest to gosh published book, I'm betting it's all going to be allowed by most DMs, even those optional extra features (reroll a check for 1 metamagic!)

The new metamagics looked a bit weak though.

Transmuted spell can often get you a 100% increase in damage if you use it to dodge resistances, and even 300% if used to dodge a resistance and target a vulnerability, as opposed to Empowered's consistent 19%.
It's also great for Tempest/Zeal cleric MC with Sorcerer.
Unerring Spell sucks though.

[Nhorianscum]

Also the guy who's saying empower is only a 12% increase is 100% wrong :P maybe if they discussed their methodology I could do a better job deconstructing it but your average goes from (1+2+3+4+5+6) / 6 = 3.5 to (3.5+3.5+3+4+5+6) / 6 which equals 4.17 or a 19% increase.

Oh, I use super extra ridiculously upcast spells as my baseline as that's where I value using a metamagic slot on damage boosting rather than just upcasting.

The value shifts based on die size, and number of die so dramatically that I'm not really bothered by the difference in standards for eyeballing.

I'm also super lazy and just treat it as a scalar bonus based on die size at extremely high (15 or more die) or extremely low (hex/MM) values.

[sophontteks]

Transmuted spell can often get you a 100% increase in damage if you use it to dodge resistances, and even 300% if used to dodge a resistance and target a vulnerability, as opposed to Empowered's consistent 19%.
It's also great for Tempest/Zeal cleric MC with Sorcerer.
Unerring Spell sucks though.
You're right I undervalued sorcerer blasters and overlooked this. It's actually a great option for blasters, especially draconic ones.

[Klorox]

So, to break it down, wizards win in versatility, and sorcerers win in blowing stuff up.

Is that about it?

[noob]

You're right I undervalued sorcerer blasters and overlooked this. It's actually a great option for blasters, especially draconic ones.
It is a great option especially because fireball is very strong but very resisted (fire is one of the most common resistances)


So, to break it down, wizards win in versatility, and sorcerers win in blowing stuff up.

Is that about it?

Sorcerer also opens up options to make your gm terribly angry by skipping the social game with careful spell on a mind control spell and other similar tricks.

[Asisreo1]

So, to break it down, wizards win in versatility, and sorcerers win in blowing stuff up.

Is that about it?
If a spellcaster needs to cast a spell, between the wizard and sorcerer, you'd probably want the sorcerer to do it.

For instance, invisibility. If both the wizard and sorcerer had invisibility, a sorcerer could extended it, twin it, distance it, subtle it and quicken it. Extending it is like casting it twice, effectively saving a spell slot. Twinning it is effectively upcasting it. Distance it if you can't quite touch your target. Subtle it so that you don't blow your cover casting the spell. And quicken it to dash/hide on the same turn.

Further than that, if you were a 3rd level wizard that casted invisibility, you have 1 2nd-level spell slot until a short rest, period. As a sorcerer, if you need 2 or even 3 more 2nd-level spells, you can cast them. It's overall less efficient, but this is in the case of needs and understanding costs v. Benefits.

[Kane0]

So, to break it down, wizards win in versatility, and sorcerers win in blowing stuff up.

Is that about it?
Well, if thats what you want to do with one yeah.

They can also be super efficient buffers, certified battlefield controllers or unmatched social manipulators.
But they cant do it all at once, nor flip between them with a long rest. You have to pick one or two to excel at or you will stretch yourself too thin and feel mediocre at all of them.

[Nhorianscum]

So, to break it down, wizards win in versatility, and sorcerers win in blowing stuff up.

Is that about it?

It's more that sorcerers are dedicated Nova characters.

They're not restricted to using this nova for damage, in fact they can nova off in any imaginable situation in just about any way and do not need to nova to function. That said they are very much defined by these explosive moments.

[Klorox]

Consider my interest piqued.

Now, it's been said a couple of times that I might've given up on the sorcerer a bit too early, as I have only tried them on low levels.

What level cap would you say is as low as you'd go and still consider sorcerer?

For instance, is it "worth" playing a sorcerer if the game only goes to level 6? 8? 10?



I suppose now is as good a time as any to plug my guide....

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxHRu80oFd2iSkNLeVBISzZxMzQ/view

I love your guide, I've read it a few times. I just never experienced anything above tier 1 and got a bit fed up. Might be the players I was around though.

[Kireban]

Consider my interest piqued.

Now, it's been said a couple of times that I might've given up on the sorcerer a bit too early, as I have only tried them on low levels.

What level cap would you say is as low as you'd go and still consider sorcerer?

For instance, is it "worth" playing a sorcerer if the game only goes to level 6? 8? 10?



I love your guide, I've read it a few times. I just never experienced anything above tier 1 and got a bit fed up. Might be the players I was around though.

What do you want to do with your character? And what sub do you think of?

[Kane0]

Probably level 5, thats the earliest you can twin Haste, Empower Fireball, Subtle Counterspell, etc. and you have an ASI at your disposal at that point too.

But before that you could still be a quicken blaster, extend buffer or subtle manipulator, just a bit less often (like any tier 1 caster really)

[sophontteks]

The big issue (which isn't true for the newest subclasses) is the lack of access to good low-level spells.

[TheUser]

Level 3: subtle suggestion

Gotta get 'em hooked early.

[Klorox]

What do you want to do with your character? And what sub do you think of?

I'm really not sure what I'm trying to accomplish with this character yet. Heck, that might even be part of the problem.

As for what type of sorcerer, I really dig that new clockwork one. It looks like a lot of fun and seems to have a bit more versatility than earlier sorcerers.

[Nhorianscum]

Consider my interest piqued.

Now, it's been said a couple of times that I might've given up on the sorcerer a bit too early, as I have only tried them on low levels.

What level cap would you say is as low as you'd go and still consider sorcerer?

For instance, is it "worth" playing a sorcerer if the game only goes to level 6? 8? 10?

The MA feat makes sorc playable in tier 1 so there's no longer a floor on the class.

That said, the class is at its best in a 1-11 campain.

[Naerytar]

Sorcerers have some really good multiclass options.


Warlock 2 (pick your favorite) / Sorcerer X (Divine Soul):
Eldritch Blast + Spiritual Weapon means three attacks at lvl 5, all based off CHA. And you still have concentration to put out your favorite party buff. Bless, twinned Haste, twinned Shield of Faith. Even twinned Protection from Evil and Good can be incredible when you are fighting the right monsters.
Meanwhile you're also a great healer, as both Cure Wounds and Healing Word can be twinned. Take Inspiring Leader for even more party buffs.


Paladin 2 or 6 depening on the campaigns level range / Sorcerer X (any subclass):
Just an all around great character. Quite tanky thanks to Shield, smite for days, etc


Fighter 1 or 2 / Sorcerer X (Draconic or Divine Soul):
Great Gish. Maybe Hill Dwarf for more HP. CHA 14 really is enough if you pick the right spells. Shield, Absorb Elements, Haste, Greater Invisibility and so on. The are a lot of spells that don't require a high casting stat.
Or take the Archery fighting style and do some Crossbow Expert stuff. That gives you high damage even when you've used all your spell slots.


With all of these character you have an above average CHA score, so with some skill proficiencies you are always useful in social situations.
What's not to love? ;)

[Aimeryan]

Sorcerers shine where they can cheese. Cheese here is breaking the rules that exist to limit spellcasters. Metamagic is literally designed to circumvent these rules. Based on the OP this class is probably not for you.

For example. Take subtle spell. Why do V, M, and S primarily exist? So wizards can't cast spells in broad daylight in the middle of a crowd.

Well sorcerers don't care.

Hey try subtle casting 'enemies abound' on someone in the middle of a crowd sometime. Grab some popcorn!

Try subtle casting an illusion or, even better, phantasmal force. Get stopped by bandits? PF the bandit leader being attacked by bees. They will probably leave you alone, and take a hefty 10d6 over 1 minute.

Sorcerers break rules and abuse the crap out of a small selection of spells. Again, if you don't like cheesing spells, look elsewhere. They have so frw spells they basically ask "how can I abuse the same spell in this situation?" Rather then picking the right spell for the occasion.

I'm not surprised you used Subtle for this argument - it is really the only one that fits. Twin is so hampered by restrictions that it is difficult to cheese and the best uses are for empowering martials rather than the Sorcerer, Quicken has the cantrip restriction, Extended and Distant are meh, Heightened and Empowered are ok but do not cheese anything, and Careful is a poor-man's Sculpt.

To be honest, the proposed Feat for taking a Metamagic would do 90% of the cheese that is being suggested to take the Sorcerer for, because it really is all in the Subtle. I do note that a number of the other Metamagic choices do gain a lot of cheese value for other classes (try Twinning buffs as a Sorcadin paired with a Rogue, and Quickening those Booming Blades), but the Sorcerer class itself is just too poor of a chassis to make much use of them.

[bendking]

I'm not surprised you used Subtle for this argument - it is really the only one that fits. Twin is so hampered by restrictions that it is difficult to cheese and the best uses are for empowering martials rather than the Sorcerer, Quicken has the cantrip restriction, Extended and Distant are meh, Heightened and Empowered are ok but do not cheese anything, and Careful is a poor-man's Sculpt.

To be honest, the proposed Feat for taking a Metamagic would do 90% of the cheese that is being suggested to take the Sorcerer for, because it really is all in the Subtle. I do note that a number of the other Metamagic choices do gain a lot of cheese value for other classes (try Twinning buffs as a Sorcadin paired with a Rogue, and Quickening those Booming Blades), but the Sorcerer class itself is just too poor of a chassis to make much use of them.

Bruh..
Twinned Spell is ultra-powerful. Sure, it doesn't buff the Sorcerer directly, but so what? Twinning a Greater Invisibility/Polymorph/Haste is game-changing.
Quicken can be used to cheese spells like Telekinesis, Sunbeam, Bigby's Hand, etc. You can literally Sunbeam twice in the same turn using it.
Careful is crazy good with spells like Hypnotic Pattern and Fear. And if your DM isn't a Sage Advice stan, it's amazing with spells like Web, Sickening Radiance, etc.
Empowered is simply fantastic for any Sorcerer who even dabbles in blasting. It's super cheap and gets you ~19% more damage on damage spells.

[Asisreo1]

Bruh..
Twinned Spell is ultra-powerful. Sure, it doesn't buff the Sorcerer directly, but so what? Twinning a Greater Invisibility/Polymorph/Haste is game-changing.
Quicken can be used to cheese spells like Telekinesis, Sunbeam, Bigby's Hand, etc. You can literally Sunbeam twice in the same turn using it.
Careful is crazy good with spells like Hypnotic Pattern and Fear. And if your DM isn't a Sage Advice stan, it's amazing with spells like Web, Sickening Radiance, etc.
Empowered is simply fantastic for any Sorcerer who even dabbles in blasting. It's super cheap and gets you ~19% more damage on damage spells.
And extended and distant are meh?!

For spells with durations, extended basically lets you cast them twice consecutively with a single spell slot without actually recasting it. This can be essential to buy you more time and stretch out spell slots in non-combat scenarios like Disguise Self or Invisibility. Of course, if your DM isn't keeping track of time, it may not see as much use. But a DM not keeping track of time is going to cause more issues in the campaign than they probably expect.

Distant spells have both combat and non-combat uses. Sometimes, a really powerful spell requires you being close to the target, but you can't quite reach. Or getting so close is too dangerous. Distant Fly, distant Invisibility. They're also useful for spells whose distance is already large, making their distance even larger. Distant Dimension Door, Distant Message, Distant Clairvoyance. Of course, if your DM isn't keeping track of distance, it may not see much use. But a DM not keeping track of distance is going to have more issues in the campaign than they probably expect.

[sophontteks]

I'm not surprised you used Subtle for this argument - it is really the only one that fits. Twin is so hampered by restrictions that it is difficult to cheese and the best uses are for empowering martials rather than the Sorcerer, Quicken has the cantrip restriction, Extended and Distant are meh, Heightened and Empowered are ok but do not cheese anything, and Careful is a poor-man's Sculpt.

To be honest, the proposed Feat for taking a Metamagic would do 90% of the cheese that is being suggested to take the Sorcerer for, because it really is all in the Subtle. I do note that a number of the other Metamagic choices do gain a lot of cheese value for other classes (try Twinning buffs as a Sorcadin paired with a Rogue, and Quickening those Booming Blades), but the Sorcerer class itself is just too poor of a chassis to make much use of them.
Most of the sorcerers power outside metamagic is tied up in their subclass, so it is hard to argue your point without considering what those subclasses can offer. There are some duds, but the good subclasses take the cheese several big steps forward. Without getting too into it, I'll just sum up by saying that there are two types of classes in 5e: Those who's power comes from their base class and those who's power comes from their subclass. Sorcerers are the latter.

Quicken is best when you need your action for something else. Don't get hung up on just using it to cast cantrips, breaking action economy is a powerful tool. A sorcerer can withdraw or dash away while still dishing out a quickened spell. Using it right it'll break the rules where the DM can think he can shut the sorcerer down once he's stuck in melee, only to see them take the dodge action with a shield spell in their back pocket, all without sacrificing any of their spellcasting economy.

Twinned isn't very limited to me. It breaks the restriction where a caster can only concentrate on a single spell. You are right that it is best used to empower teammates, but I don't see how this is a problem. Greater invisibility is a great spell on it's own. Casting it on 2 people at once for 1 action is more then twice as good. What could we even compare this power spike to? Twinned sorcerers are just plain the best buffers in the game.

Sorcerers also got a new transmutation metamagic for antics like empowered acid fireballs. If you know a creature's vulnerabilities this can be absolutely devestating. We are taking a commonly-resisted damage type, turning it into their vulnerable damage type, and rerolling our die if we roll low. Fireball is already overtuned, and the damage type is really the only thing keeping it balanced.

[Kireban]

I'm really not sure what I'm trying to accomplish with this character yet. Heck, that might even be part of the problem.

As for what type of sorcerer, I really dig that new clockwork one. It looks like a lot of fun and seems to have a bit more versatility than earlier sorcerers.

Sorcerer will never be as versatile as a wizard. You should take a subclass with interesting features that are going to spice your play. Taking clockwork will mostly give you generic sorcerer play options. Twinning buffs.

[Nhorianscum]

Sorcerer will never be as versatile as a wizard. You should take a subclass with interesting features that are going to spice your play. Taking clockwork will mostly give you generic sorcerer play options. Twinning buffs.

I don't think that's strictly true now.

Wizard at 10th level: 15 spells prepared/day + rituals

MA Clockwork/Aberrant Sorcerer at 10th level: 21spells known + 5 metamagics.

[sophontteks]

Clockwork doesn't offer much with additional abilities (the level 6 ability seems awful to me) but the expanded spell lists are complete game-changers.

Don't bother looking into what the actual expanded spells are. You can swap them out every level. That's where the new sublcasses get really nutty.

[Kireban]

I don't think that's strictly true now.

Wizard at 10th level: 15 spells prepared/day + rituals

MA Clockwork/Aberrant Sorcerer at 10th level: 21spells known + 5 metamagics.

It might be true for the clockwork since there are really nice spells to take for each of the bonus list's levels, but the aberrant's bonus list is going to contain some weird/similar spells.
Each of the sorcerer's spells is going to demand a slot to cast, while the wizard can easily have 5 rituals in his book to cast for free, and Arcane Recovery makes the dilemma of when to use spells easier for the wizard.
Also, the wizard's spell list itself contains more diverse spells than the sorcerer's.

Where is the added value of playing a sorcerer instead of wizard if you just play him as a generic wizard with metamagic? This guy wants a reason to play a sorcerer, and clockwork doesn't have any "OMG! I am going to build myself around it!" feature.

[sophontteks]

It might be true for the clockwork since there are really nice spells to take for each of the bonus list's levels, but the aberrant's bonus list is going to contain some weird/similar spells.
Each of the sorcerer's spells is going to demand a slot to cast, while the wizard can easily have 5 rituals in his book to cast for free, and Arcane Recovery makes the dilemma of when to use spells easier for the wizard.
Also, the wizard's spell list itself contains more diverse spells than the sorcerer's.

Where is the added value of playing a sorcerer instead of wizard if you just play him as a generic wizard with metamagic? This guy wants a reason to play a sorcerer, and clockwork doesn't have any "OMG! I am going to build myself around it!" feature.
You can change what the bonus spells are every level, so both subclasses are top tier. Both these subclasses get to change their expanded spells as they please, and they are picking them from the wizard, sorcerer, and warlock lists.

The reason to play clockwork over a wizard is because metamagic without the spell limitations most sorcerers deal with. It's a very mean combination. I think aberant is better with the free subtle on all the expanded spells, but clockwork is easily one of the best sorcerer subclasses.

Generic wizard with metamagic is basically the dream as is.

[Gyor]

And extended and distant are meh?!

For spells with durations, extended basically lets you cast them twice consecutively with a single spell slot without actually recasting it. This can be essential to buy you more time and stretch out spell slots in non-combat scenarios like Disguise Self or Invisibility. Of course, if your DM isn't keeping track of time, it may not see as much use. But a DM not keeping track of time is going to cause more issues in the campaign than they probably expect.

Distant spells have both combat and non-combat uses. Sometimes, a really powerful spell requires you being close to the target, but you can't quite reach. Or getting so close is too dangerous. Distant Fly, distant Invisibility. They're also useful for spells whose distance is already large, making their distance even larger. Distant Dimension Door, Distant Message, Distant Clairvoyance. Of course, if your DM isn't keeping track of distance, it may not see much use. But a DM not keeping track of distance is going to have more issues in the campaign than they probably expect.

One cool trick that most people don't notice is that for certain spells their area of effect is equal to their distance, like major illusion, so you say distance spell major illusion and you double the range you move your illusion around in, which is extra great in a 6th level slot which makes major illusion permanent.

[Gyor]

Divine Souls get some good minion/conjuration/necromancy spells, Animate Undead and Create Undead, Conjure Celestial (couatl), Summon Celestial, Spirit Guardians, Spirit Weapon, Temple of the Gods. Also can twin raise dead and other such spells or cast them at a distance.

If you have deep lockets they also can get Planar Ally.

Extended Spell is alot more valuable for Divine Souls then most other Sorcerers. They can also fly at will, even in armour.

In a jam a Divine Soul can spend 7 Sorcery points to get a 5th level spell slot & Summon Celestial.

Or the Divine Soul can cast possibly the most animate undead spells by creating more 3rd level spell slots from Sorcery Points.

Shadow Sorcerers are the best teleporters the the game, especially with a Astral Shard, teleport as a bonus action, cast an Empowered Thunder Step as an action (teleport +damage), which triggers the Astral Shards teleport. Summon a pair of hounds of Ill omen and cast twin finger of death = 2 new zombies.

Storm Sorcerer can cast animate object on say ship your on, then share its ability to fly with it for a time. Also Thunder Step is really fun with a Storm Sorcerer.

I'd also add that the Sorcerer magic items can make a huge difference. If you have say both the Astral Shard and Far Realms shard you can say cast a twinned fire bolt cheaply and trigger teleportation and a tentacle attack that causes damage and fear if it hits.

[Randomthom]

Also, subtle spell makes counterspelling your spells difficult or impossible (GM dependent, YMMV).

[Gyor]

Assuming 2 short rests, a level 20 Divine Sorcerer have 30 undead minions just by burning it's level 1st and 2nd level spell slots for Sorcery points and spending all points on 5th level slots & casting 5th level Animate Dead spells without burning a single regular spell slot from spell levels 3-9.

If all of it's remaining spell slots are cast on Animate Undead it can have 110 skeletons/zombies. More with extra short rests.