Tasha's Ranger observations -- Nature's Veil = Greater Invisibility

[Arandur]

In my opinion from my review so far, Tasha's is all over the place -- some interesting stuff, but a lot that really appears very poorly thought out, and weird balance issues, some things being very powerful (Aberrant Mind, Twilight domain, possibly Wildfire Druid, stacking multiclass Psi dice), others bizarrely nerfed (Blade cantrips did NOT need nerfing, miffed about that, . Also, there's a whole bunch of different, inconsistent mechanics for die augmentation and bundles dice (here a d4, there a d4, or a d3 (!) or a d6, or a level-variable die); numbers of usages and recharges (Proficiency Bonus #, or once then use x level spell slot or its own pool of Prof bonus usages for that power, or 2x prof bonus, or use a point after your free use to use again, 1 minute vs 10 minutes, etc). Poor, poor design, IMO. Pick a pattern or two and stick with it.

RANGERS -- the UA preview was much better, but the nerf isn't necessarily all bad.
Deft Explorer is decent for getting out of favored terrain locks, and not as powerful as UA substitute, but a bit underwhelming, particularly when spread out across levels

Favored Foe actually DOESN'T say it requires concentration, from my reading -- it would not therefore interfere with Hunter's Mark or other concentration spells. It says "as if" you were concentrating. However, 1d4 is weak, having to track it is unnecessary tedium (have to track which enemy, 1 minute duration, and Proficiency # uses), AND it really starts to become annoying tracking all the modifiers, assuming you've got your 1d6 from Hunter's Mark and whatever bonus die of damage you get from your subclass, like Fey Wanderer's Dreadful Strike or Swarmkeeper's attack. 1d4+1d6+1d4 on top of weapon damage and all that mess. Just change Favored Foe to always on Hunter's Mark and call it a day.

Nature's Veil is a big one -- it does NOT say that the invisibility granted ends when you move or attack, nor does it say when on your turn you can use it. Effectively, RAW, this is Greater Invisibility as a Bonus Action each turn (without Concentration) for a number of rounds per day equal to your Proficiency Bonus. The numerical limitation I think balances it, but it IS powerful. Combine with Extra Attack, and/or Swarmkeeper's slow Fly or one of the many additional multiclass options to start flying at 6th level without Concentration, and you've got some wicked Advantage + evasive maneuvering. Combine with multiclass options that want to use Concentration spells, and this gives you a way to get a few bursts of Greater Invisibility, and perhaps Fly, without using your Concentration.

Love Swarmkeeper, btw, as a Controller -- I like controllers, and the Gathered Swarm effect has very nice options for that. With flexible flavoring, it doesn't even need to be woodland or fey creatures.

Thoughts?

[Witty Username]

Deft explorer is that one that has canny, roving, and tireless? Is it still op at 1st level to take tireless (like +30 HP over the course of a day about).

No Primal awareness? Dammit.

[Sindal]

Deft explorer is that one that has canny, roving, and tireless? Is it still op at 1st level to take tireless (like +30 HP over the course of a day about).

No Primal awareness? Dammit.

•Primal awareness is still there and does the same thing that was advertised on the UA :smallsmile: Still probably more useful than the race radar XD

•When you take deft explorer now, you now get them in a specific order of:
Canny (lvl1)
Roving (lvl6)
Tireless (lvl10)

(they do the same thing as advertised, just in that specific order)

•So tireless is your later game ranger reward. I image it's there to stop the barbarian dips everyone was going on about. :smallcool: At lvl 10 you can just turn invisible and activate tireless. It's probably not super optimal but the idea of fighting some dude who disappears and just comes back with more hp sounds scary to me. Just theme wise.

•As for the OP's comment about FF, the problem is that you can't say it doesn't require concentration, because you can specifically lose it 'when you lose concentration'.
Concentration is a 5e mechanic. You can only ever concentrate on one thing at a time, regardless of if it's a spell or a spell cast from an item or an ability that emulates it. Whenever you want to concentrate on a new effect, you have to let go of the old one.
If something says "Treat this as if you were concentrating on a spell", we have to treat everything about it the same way.

So if I cast hunter's mark and start concentrating, and then use FF on the same target after I hit them, HM would break. I'd love to be wrong about that but the fact that the feature even mentions concentration at all as a requirement cements it's intent. Otherwise they would have worded it differently like "It lasts for one minute or if you X amount of damage from another target." Because then it's not concentration, it's this feature's unique rule.

It's not ideal for sure, but FF does have some upsides
1)It requires no bonus action. This means that it can be combo'd with 'some' of your other concentration spells like zephyr strike, lightning arrow or hail of thorns that require concentration up until the point that you hit your target. (something that is not possible with HM)
2) It requires no spell slot, so you're probably gonna have one or two extra casts of your spells that you didn't have before
3)While HM is a strictly superior spell for consistent damage, you might be encouraged to 'not' take hunters mark. Because every ranger borderline needs hunter's mark to keep their damage in a safe space. And a spell that's so integral to a class that it's basically a class feature anyway isn't ideal, since one of your limited spell choices always goes there and limits your choice.

It would have been nice if the concentration restrain lessesn and eventually vanishes as you level up to show your mastery, but make the most I suppose. Actually sitting down and thinking about it, I'm more on board with switching my current ranger to FF, dropping hunters mark and getting some other utility or damage spell. Wasn't getting squat out of FE, so atleast I'll be able to use my class ability now :smallbiggrin:

[Arandur]

•As for the OP's comment about FF, the problem is that you can't say it doesn't require concentration, because you can specifically lose it 'when you lose concentration'.
Concentration is a 5e mechanic. You can only ever concentrate on one thing at a time, regardless of if it's a spell or a spell cast from an item or an ability that emulates it. Whenever you want to concentrate on a new effect, you have to let go of the old one.
If something says "Treat this as if you were concentrating on a spell", we have to treat everything about it the same way.

You're right. Xanathar's clarified to nerf any special ability that says "as if you were concentrating on a spell," by including "special abilities" specifically in concentration.

So that's dumb.

Personally, I think they've tied too many spells to concentration, and too many magic items to attunement. I think there are homebrew fixes that would not unbalance things, largely because at higher levels, low level concentration spells (particularly the ones that don't scale) shouldn't have to compete completely with high level ones, as they have become worth less. But a fix for these affects so much it would need a lot of attention.

That aside, back to RAW, Favored Foe as basically a replacement for Hunter's Mark works, reaching parity at 6th level's 1d6 and scaling a little better, but the Concentration requirement is still brutal, and renders it very weak as a class feature. It doesn't give you the secondary benefit, which would be nice, but it removes the Bonus Action. I think it should remove Concentration as well, entirely. Otherwise, it basically precludes using Zephyr Strike, Ensnaring Strike, Hail of Thorns, Searing Smite, Hunter's Mark, Beast Bond, etc.

The competing concentration spells and abilities for Rangers are a serious nerf. Zephyr Strike is a unique Ranger spell that is golden for mobility rangers (which is probably most); unless you replace it with Cunning Action, or the Mobility feat, losing out on it due to competing concentration hurts.

Have to deal with RAW, unfortunately, but I would homebrew fixes if I were DM.

I think Primal Awareness ought to include a few more of the low level animal, plant, wilderness/detection spells and draw from a single Proficiency Bonus pool of free casting, instead of requiring you to track one cast of each.

As I said in the OP, I think Favored Foe should just be Hunter's Mark as a class feature, no spell or concentration required, activated on hit like the Tasha's FF. Limit the tracking effect (which is almost never used) to proficiency bonus # of times, but not its use otherwise.

Smite and Strike spells in general shouldn't require concentration, IMO; they just trigger at first hit, and in the case of secondary effects, just last until Save Ends or 1 minute. I haven't examined all of them to see if that general rule would work, but off the top of my head it seems reasonable, because of the Bonus Action requirement, limited damage, and the very limited spell slots of the classes that use them (Paladin and Ranger mostly).

[GlenSmash!]

That aside, back to RAW, Favored Foe as basically a replacement for Hunter's Mark works, reaching parity at 6th level's 1d6 and scaling a little better, but the Concentration requirement is still brutal, and renders it very weak as a class feature. It doesn't give you the secondary benefit, which would be nice, but it removes the Bonus Action. I think it should remove Concentration as well, entirely. Otherwise, it basically precludes using Zephyr Strike, Ensnaring Strike, Hail of Thorns, Searing Smite, Hunter's Mark, Beast Bond, etc.


It also only adds damage to the first hit each turn, as opposed to every hit like Hunter's Mark.

[trctelles]

I still have hopes that FF might still get Errata'ed... I mean, yeah, Favored Enemy is still worse than this but requiring concentration for 1d4 ONCE per turn? Yeah, that's doodoo

[Kane0]

Okay, I don't like Favored Foe because I think we came up with something better here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?595643-By-request-Workshopping-another-Ranger), but for what it is I don't hate it.
- It doesn't use your BA which frees up TWF and other things
- It scales based on both prof bonus and ranger level, so helpful whether you MC/dip or not
- You get it at level 1, before spellcasting (granted this is a tiny factor, but no less true)
- Takes effect after a hit, like a smite (again a small factor, but limits wastage)
- It arguably should still work while you're concentrating anyways, just as the one instance of extra damage
- It arguably can be used against multiple targets if you use the same attack roll for them all

And honestly if it didn't take concentration I would expect most people to just take it as free extra damage and continue playing exactly as they did before with Hunter's Mark. Ranger has many failings but damage output isn't really one of them. This is another way to boost damage that isn't tied to spell slots, choice of subclass or bonus action.