Sinking Ships (DM help)

[Flashkannon]

As a small preface: in my campaign world, the oceans are, for the most part, ruled by sea elves who patrol in submersible sail-vessels that ride the currents. My intent is for them to be utterly better than any surface navy, as in not-even-a-contest better. They have waterbreathing of course and no need to make anything more than neutrally bouyant, but this is about their ability to combat surfacer ships, in particular.

In general, I go lower-magic, with the high water mark being maybe level 5 in all but large and powerful nations. This is a large and powerful nation, so I can go up to around level 10 or so.

My current solution is a circle of 10 wizards attached to the ruling family who produce Ballistae bolts enchanted with a single cast of the spell Blight. One such arrow would be supplied to patrols, who would, if absolutely necessary, employ it to wither the keel of the offending ship, which would in short order destroy it.

Thus, my question is two-fold:

1. Does Blight work on dead plants per RAW?

2. Does anyone know any better spell for this task? I had considered Shatter, but the damage (a mere 3d8) seems rather low for unquestionable ship obliteration.

[MrCharlie]

As a small preface: in my campaign world, the oceans are, for the most part, ruled by sea elves who patrol in submersible sail-vessels that ride the currents. My intent is for them to be utterly better than any surface navy, as in not-even-a-contest better. They have waterbreathing of course and no need to make anything more than neutrally bouyant, but this is about their ability to combat surfacer ships, in particular.

In general, I go lower-magic, with the high water mark being maybe level 5 in all but large and powerful nations. This is a large and powerful nation, so I can go up to around level 10 or so.

My current solution is a circle of 10 wizards attached to the ruling family who produce Ballistae bolts enchanted with a single cast of the spell Blight. One such arrow would be supplied to patrols, who would, if absolutely necessary, employ it to wither the keel of the offending ship, which would in short order destroy it.

Thus, my question is two-fold:

1. Does Blight work on dead plants per RAW?

2. Does anyone know any better spell for this task? I had considered Shatter, but the damage seems rather low for unquestionable ship obliteration.
Blight woulden't do anything unless the ship had living wood in it-Perhaps a reasonable countermeasure if magical living ships are common, but still.

I think your approaching this wrong. IRL, simply having submersible ships would be enough. They could get close to a ships rudder, match speed, and simply disable the thing by expedient of cutting the ropes attaching it to the wheelhouse if they are exposed, or shoving something into the gear assemblage or into the rudder gap if it's not. As long as the are underwater you can't do a damned thing about it-projectiles don't handle water-air transitions well. You don't need fancy magic at all. Then they just saw through the bottom of the boat for a few hours while the poor air breathers panic, maybe send up a couple ultimatums while they flounder.

If you do want magic-if for some reason that seems too much like cheating-then there is a simpler solution.

Immovable Rods.

Lots of immovable rods.

That cabal of spellcasters? They create immovable rods. These rods are put into place in front of ships by strike teams operating from the submersibles, or simply used as mines which are located slightly below the water line in the path of ships and painted a dark color (of course, waves mean this is more art than science and rods often hit rigging and sometimes miss ships altogether, but a minefield of them wins eventually).

When a ship hits them they either tear a hole through the ship, or the ship gets stuck and pushes against them until it has more than 8000 pounds of force applied and disables the rod-either way the damage would be catastrophic, and without magic the only counterplay is an eagle eyed lookout and a good prayer.

The key with both methods is that the mastery isn't because the sea elves are shooting the ships or overpowering them-it's much more absolute than that. The surfacers can't even fight the elves, it's not a contest any more than you fight the sea itself. It's domination, absolute and merciless.

[Warder]

Ships have 300 hit points, so mechanically any single spell won't do the trick. But how about the ballista bolts being enchanted with conjure elemental or something similar? Suddenly there's a few water elementals rampaging through the cargo hold while the crew is up on deck!

[Sorinth]

For a low magic solution you can't beat Shape water.

Freeze the water surrounding the rudder and it becomes impossible to steer the ship. Then just keep expanding the ice block every round with another casting, eventually the buoyance of the ice will cause the ship to capsize.

Or just create mini icebergs in the path that the ship rams into causing damage.

If you want one shot ballista bolts, then maybe pre-programmed Whirlpools from Control Water.

[Unoriginal]

As a small preface: in my campaign world, the oceans are, for the most part, ruled by sea elves who patrol in submersible sail-vessels that ride the currents. My intent is for them to be utterly better than any surface navy, as in not-even-a-contest better. They have waterbreathing of course and no need to make anything more than neutrally bouyant, but this is about their ability to combat surfacer ships, in particular.

In general, I go lower-magic, with the high water mark being maybe level 5 in all but large and powerful nations. This is a large and powerful nation, so I can go up to around level 10 or so.

My current solution is a circle of 10 wizards attached to the ruling family who produce Ballistae bolts enchanted with a single cast of the spell Blight. One such arrow would be supplied to patrols, who would, if absolutely necessary, employ it to wither the keel of the offending ship, which would in short order destroy it.

Thus, my question is two-fold:

1. Does Blight work on dead plants per RAW?

2. Does anyone know any better spell for this task? I had considered Shatter, but the damage (a mere 3d8) seems rather low for unquestionable ship obliteration.


Why not just having normal, non-magical ballista bolts? Or other breaking/piercing weapons, or saws?

Piercing a ship's hull from under it is a pretty great way to sink a ship without it ever being a contest (unless the surface ship is protected by the like of adventurers).


Really don't need magic for that.


But if you want it to be magic, then you don't need to have it be an existing spell. Could just be some kind of magic item that makes wood rot on impact.

Could also be a super-fast parasitic plant or mushroom that does it.

[Makorel]

Depending on your interpretation Control Water is amazing for sinking ships. Flood lets you create a wave with a 25 percent chance to capsize any ship that is huge or smaller. Part Water can create a 100 by 100 foot hole underneath ships causing them to tumble over. Redirect Flow and Whirpool allows you to crash ships into each other provided they're within 100 feet of each other or the whirlpool. And you can create a new effect every turn for 10 minutes.

[jjordan]

Greek Fire. Surface the ship, pump a stream of napalm at the offending ship, it burns to the waterline. Off you go. If you're insisting on using magic then fireball or some variant of firebolt.

[Mutazoia]

Honestly, forget Blight, as it won't affect non-living wood.

However, (get ready for a tongue twister)using Warp Wood would warp the wooden planks of the hull, causing catastrophic failure over a large section of the hull below the waterline. While most ships crew would be trained to patch a hole the size of a ballista bolt, there is nothing you can do if several planks of your hull suddenly twist up like pretzels, leaving 10+ feet long by 6(ish) feet wide hole that would be unpatchable with anything short of a magic "wall" spell.

Then there is always Captain Nemo's schtick. Simply ram the offending vessel under the waterline, basically cutting the hull in half. If you look at a pic of the (Disney version) Nautilus, you'll see what amounts to a giant saw-blade running up the bow. (One of the things Disney got right with their adaptation.)

[sithlordnergal]

Hmmmm, well if you really want to sink a ship very easily, you'll want to use the Disintegrate spell. You could have those 10 mages combine their powers to make bolts that act as a single cast of Disintegrate, which really would obliterate ships. Especially if those ships are not magical ships and you hit the bottom of the hull. Reason why is pretty simple:


This spell [Disintegrate] automatically disintegrates a Large or smaller nonmagical object or a Creation of magical force. If the target is a Huge or larger object or Creation of force, this spell disintegrates a 10-foot-cube portion of it. A magic item is unaffected by this spell.

Since a Ship falls under the category of "Object", then Disintegrate bypasses a Ship's HP entirely.

[Flashkannon]

Blight wouldn't do anything unless the ship had living wood in it-Perhaps a reasonable countermeasure if magical living ships are common, but still.

Thought so, but disappointed all the same.


Immovable Rods.

Lots of immovable rods.

You see the problem with that is: if I ever allow my players access to an actual Immovable Rod I will rue that day for the next couple years.


Depending on your interpretation Control Water is amazing for sinking ships. Flood lets you create a wave with a 25 percent chance to capsize any ship that is huge or smaller. Part Water can create a 100 by 100 foot hole underneath ships causing them to tumble over. Redirect Flow and Whirpool allows you to crash ships into each other provided they're within 100 feet of each other or the whirlpool. And you can create a new effect every turn for 10 minutes.

Honestly this might work, and can let me change the wizards to clerics if I want to.


Really don't need magic for that.

I see where you're coming from, but magic is fun.


For a low magic solution you can't beat Shape water.

Freeze the water surrounding the rudder and it becomes impossible to steer the ship. Then just keep expanding the ice block every round with another casting, eventually the buoyance of the ice will cause the ship to capsize.

Or just create mini icebergs in the path that the ship rams into causing damage.

If you want one shot ballista bolts, then maybe pre-programmed Whirlpools from Control Water.

Yeah thank you both for the suggestion, considering now having it be a Cleric organization with the blessing of the god(ess) of the waves, letting the vertical range out a little bit to just directly smash them on the bottom of the sea.


Honestly, forget Blight, as it won't affect non-living wood.

However, (get ready for a tongue twister)using Warp Wood would warp the wooden planks of the hull, causing catastrophic failure over a large section of the hull below the waterline. While most ships crew would be trained to patch a hole the size of a ballista bolt, there is nothing you can do if several planks of your hull suddenly twist up like pretzels, leaving 10+ feet long by 6(ish) feet wide hole that would be unpatchable with anything short of a magic "wall" spell.

Then there is always Captain Nemo's schtick. Simply ram the offending vessel under the waterline, basically cutting the hull in half. If you look at a pic of the (Disney version) Nautilus, you'll see what amounts to a giant saw-blade running up the bow. (One of the things Disney got right with their adaptation.)

I don't think Warp Wood is in 5e, but I like the Captain Nemo idea quite a lot, actually. Even a simply enchanted +1 battering saw would do a lot


Hmmmm, well if you really want to sink a ship very easily, you'll want to use the Disintegrate spell. You could have those 10 mages combine their powers to make bolts that act as a single cast of Disintegrate, which really would obliterate ships. Especially if those ships are not magical ships and you hit the bottom of the hull. Reason why is pretty simple:

Since a Ship falls under the category of "Object", then Disintegrate bypasses a Ship's HP entirely.

A little high level for my purposes unfortunately

[Unoriginal]

I see where you're coming from, but magic is fun.


Then you could have them cast Animate Objects on a whole lot of buzzsaws.

[MrCharlie]

What, you don't want your party sleeping on cots located a km above the ground? Or climbing to the moon?

You could replace immovable rods with leomunds tiny hut, or walls of force. The only difference is that you're truly screwed if you hit them, whereas a ship could survive a single immovable rod hit.

[Flashkannon]

Then you could have them cast Animate Objects on a whole lot of buzzsaws.

Eh, but that's 5th level though... officially putting the mages in Tier 3 category at level 11 or higher.


What, you don't want your party sleeping on cots located a km above the ground? Or climbing to the moon?

You could replace immovable rods with leomunds tiny hut, or walls of force. The only difference is that you're truly screwed if you hit them, whereas a ship could survive a single immovable rod hit.

Hm. Can Leomund's Tiny Hut even be used like that?

[MrCharlie]

Hm. Can Leomund's Tiny Hut even be used like that?
Yes, it should be usable in this way. It takes a minute to cast and is centered on yourself, but if you could enchant an item to act as the source of it you could basically use it as a delayed explosion, except it's using a ships own momentum against it. You swim infiltrators up, make a best guess as to where the ship will be in a minute, activate the item, and watch it basically reef itself against an invisible dome.

Wall of force is even better-cast it so that there is a wedge shape to the wall and the ship will cut itself in half.

The problem with the wall of force is that it's overpowered. If an item makes a wall of force once per day that's one very dead ship a day. It's also very strong in combat.

The problem with tiny hut is that it's moderately difficult to pull off, but I can imagine sea elves having daring saboteurs who swim in front of ships and plan the attack.

In general these momentum weapons are the easiest way to screw over a ship, because they bypass ship combat rules for something that, narratively, should be instantly lethal to a traditional sailing vessel. Or, hell, the titanic. Objects at sea are still dangerous.

[sithlordnergal]

Eh, but that's 5th level though... officially putting the mages in Tier 3 category at level 11 or higher.

No, Full Casters get 5th level spells at levels 9 and 10, so they'd still be in Tier 2 with access to Animate Objects. Which is why I suggest having a team of 10 Wizards, all at level 10, coming together to make a weapon that can replicate aspects of Disintegrate.

[Mutazoia]

I don't think Warp Wood is in 5e

You're the DM...port it in. It's not like it's a horribly OP spell outside of a small number of niche uses (such as this). If only your Sea Elves have it, you don't have to worry about your players using it.

[Flashkannon]

You're the DM...port it in. It's not like it's a horribly OP spell outside of a small number of niche uses (such as this). If only your Sea Elves have it, you don't have to worry about your players using it.

Haha, trust me, for the same reason that I'm avoiding Immovable Rods, I can't rely on any system to keep a particular object or spell out of the hands of player any less than "DM fiat" (which I despise using wantonly) or having them be buried in the personal hoards of deities.


Yes, it should be usable in this way. It takes a minute to cast and is centered on yourself, but if you could enchant an item to act as the source of it you could basically use it as a delayed explosion, except it's using a ships own momentum against it. You swim infiltrators up, make a best guess as to where the ship will be in a minute, activate the item, and watch it basically reef itself against an invisible dome.

Wall of force is even better-cast it so that there is a wedge shape to the wall and the ship will cut itself in half.

The problem with the wall of force is that it's overpowered. If an item makes a wall of force once per day that's one very dead ship a day. It's also very strong in combat.

The problem with tiny hut is that it's moderately difficult to pull off, but I can imagine sea elves having daring saboteurs who swim in front of ships and plan the attack.

In general these momentum weapons are the easiest way to screw over a ship, because they bypass ship combat rules for something that, narratively, should be instantly lethal to a traditional sailing vessel. Or, hell, the titanic. Objects at sea are still dangerous.

Goodness me. That sounds like the kind of thing that would get errata added to Leomund's Tiny Hut if the devs knew about it.


No, Full Casters get 5th level spells at levels 9 and 10, so they'd still be in Tier 2 with access to Animate Objects. Which is why I suggest having a team of 10 Wizards, all at level 10, coming together to make a weapon that can replicate aspects of Disintegrate.
:eek:
I... I don't know how I made that mistake, it's not like the spell slot levels have ever changed-

Wait, right, Disintegrate is 6th level, that's what I was thinking of here.

Regardless, I think I have a pretty good solution now, thank you all for your responses!