The Spellcaster Sidekick is a better Warlock than the Warlock

[ftafp]

In contrast to warlocks who use pact magic and thus get only 2 spell slots, the spellcaster sidekick is a spellcaster with the same spellcaster progression as an artificer. In other words, you have more than 2 spell slots! On top of that it has access to both the warlock and bard spell lists, and if you start with the Nobleman stat block from the MM and apply your race of choice you can have 18 CHA at level 1 without having to play a custom lineage with a half-feat. You also can get a +2 to AC as a reaction

the level 6 ability Potent Cantrips might seem a little late for getting agonizing blast, but it applies to ALL your cantrips, and more notably is NOT limited to a single damage roll, meaning you can apply it to both rolls of a booming blade or even the ongoing damage of Create Bonfire. Adding to that the level 14 ability Empowered spellcasting applies that to ALL damage and healing in one school of your choice, regardless of spell level. It also stacks on your cantrips

[paladinn]

In contrast to warlocks who use pact magic and thus get only 2 spell slots, the spellcaster sidekick is a spellcaster with the same spellcaster progression as an artificer. In other words, you have more than 2 spell slots! On top of that it has access to both the warlock and bard spell lists, and if you start with the Nobleman stat block from the MM and apply your race of choice you can have 18 CHA at level 1 without having to play a custom lineage with a half-feat. You also can get a +2 to AC as a reaction

the level 6 ability Potent Cantrips might seem a little late for getting agonizing blast, but it applies to ALL your cantrips, and more notably is NOT limited to a single damage roll, meaning you can apply it to both rolls of a booming blade or even the ongoing damage of Create Bonfire. Adding to that the level 14 ability Empowered spellcasting applies that to ALL damage and healing in one school of your choice, regardless of spell level. It also stacks on your cantrips

I've thought the same thing. It would have been even better if they just had stuck with the spellcaster from the UA. Tasha's is a bit nerfed. Now That could have been a better wizard than the wizard as well!

I've wondered.. since the Bard and Warlock spell lists are accessible if the caster is CHA-based.. how about allowing the Sorcerer spell list too? Too much of a good thing is amazing!:)

[ftafp]

I've thought the same thing. It would have been even better if they just had stuck with the spellcaster from the UA. Tasha's is a bit nerfed. Now That could have been a better wizard than the wizard as well!

I've wondered.. since the Bard and Warlock spell lists are accessible if the caster is CHA-based.. how about allowing the Sorcerer spell list too? Too much of a good thing is amazing!:)

Eh, I prefer my dnd the way I prefer my chicken: RAW and crunchy

[Unoriginal]

In contrast to warlocks who use pact magic and thus get only 2 spell slots, the spellcaster sidekick is a spellcaster with the same spellcaster progression as an artificer. In other words, you have more than 2 spell slots! On top of that it has access to both the warlock and bard spell lists, and if you start with the Nobleman stat block from the MM and apply your race of choice you can have 18 CHA at level 1 without having to play a custom lineage with a half-feat. You also can get a +2 to AC as a reaction

the level 6 ability Potent Cantrips might seem a little late for getting agonizing blast, but it applies to ALL your cantrips, and more notably is NOT limited to a single damage roll, meaning you can apply it to both rolls of a booming blade or even the ongoing damage of Create Bonfire. Adding to that the level 14 ability Empowered spellcasting applies that to ALL damage and healing in one school of your choice, regardless of spell level. It also stacks on your cantrips

No subclass abilities, no Pact to select, no Invocations, no short rest recovering your spells from lvl 1...

It is quite transparently clear that the Spellcaster Sidekick is, in fact, a worse spellcaster than any of the PC spellcaster classes. As it is intended.


There is no metric by which a Spellcaster Sidekick would be a better Warlock than the Warlock.

[ftafp]

No subclass abilities, no Pact to select, no Invocations, no short rest recovering your spells from lvl 1...

It is quite transparently clear that the Spellcaster Sidekick is, in fact, a worse spellcaster than any of the PC spellcaster classes. As it is intended.


There is no metric by which a Spellcaster Sidekick would be a better Warlock than the Warlock.

the problem with warlock is you get all those neat class features but then just spam eldritch blast in combat. 2 spell slots per battle for most of your character's career just isn't enough to work with. I'm not saying the spellcaster sidekick is good compared to any other full caster, but the warlock's design is so screwed up it's worse at spellcasting than most half-casters

[paladinn]

the problem with warlock is you get all those neat class features but then just spam eldritch blast in combat. 2 spell slots per battle for most of your character's career just isn't enough to work with. I'm not saying the spellcaster sidekick is good compared to any other full caster, but the warlock's design is so screwed up it's worse at spellcasting than most half-casters

I've never much liked the warlock class. As a concept it's almost a cleric with a bad attitude. A few abilities are cool though. I'd considered folding it into the sorcerer class.

That said, the UA sidekick spellcaster is better than Tasha's, and about as good as a wizard, IMO

[Pixel_Kitsune]

the problem with warlock is you get all those neat class features but then just spam eldritch blast in combat. 2 spell slots per battle for most of your character's career just isn't enough to work with. I'm not saying the spellcaster sidekick is good compared to any other full caster, but the warlock's design is so screwed up it's worse at spellcasting than most half-casters

I suppose if that's how you play? I've never just spammed cantrips. Cantrips are for rounds I'm not doing anything else. Like illusions, or melee, or casting hold monster.

Also 2 slots are plenty if you pick things that last and have big impact.

I guess I'll give credit that the spellcaster sidekick is better at just damage spamming cantrips...

[ftafp]

I've never much liked the warlock class. As a concept it's almost a cleric with a bad attitude. A few abilities are cool though. I'd considered folding it into the sorcerer class.

That said, the UA sidekick spellcaster is better than Tasha's, and about as good as a wizard, IMO

Everything in Tasha's was better in UA aside from the swarmkeeper and the spore druid, but I understand why they did what they did to the sidekick. These are NPC classes, they're supposed to be weaker than PC classes. The fact that even after cutting its spellcasting in half it's still better than the warlock is a testament to how badly designed the warlock is

[jas61292]

the problem with warlock is you get all those neat class features but then just spam eldritch blast in combat. 2 spell slots per battle for most of your character's career just isn't enough to work with. I'm not saying the spellcaster sidekick is good compared to any other full caster, but the warlock's design is so screwed up it's worse at spellcasting than most half-casters

2 spell slots per battle is more than enough most of the time, in my experience. Even wizards in my groups rarely use more than that. If you actually have a decent number of combats per day, you learn not to expect to spend too many spells at any one time. It might not be as fun for some people, but it is certainly sufficient. And when you add in invocations and subclass features and whatnot, the Warlock is clearly far superior to any sidekick.

Of course, if you are use to single combat, always nova, games, your experience will be different. But that's not really what the game expects. And even in such cases, the lack of invocations and subclass features will really, really hurt.

[ftafp]

I suppose if that's how you play? I've never just spammed cantrips. Cantrips are for rounds I'm not doing anything else. Like illusions, or melee, or casting hold monster.

Also 2 slots are plenty if you pick things that last and have big impact.

I guess I'll give credit that the spellcaster sidekick is better at just damage spamming cantrips...


It's better at damage-spamming cantrips and it's better at NOT damage-spamming cantrips.


2 spell slots per battle is more than enough most of the time, in my experience. Even wizards in my groups rarely use more than that. If you actually have a decent number of combats per day, you learn not to expect to spend too many spells at any one time. It might not be as fun for some people, but it is certainly sufficient. And when you add in invocations and subclass features and whatnot, the Warlock is clearly far superior to any sidekick.

Of course, if you are use to single combat, always nova, games, your experience will be different. But that's not really what the game expects. And even in such cases, the lack of invocations and subclass features will really, really hurt.

Maybe the difference in philosophy boils down to battle length. In my experience, battles usually last 5-8 turns and are high-intensity, consuming a lot of resources that warlocks don't have. I'm not used to the style of gameplay that features a half dozen 2-round combats a day with short rests in between.

[MaxWilson]

No subclass abilities, no Pact to select, no Invocations, no short rest recovering your spells from lvl 1...

It is quite transparently clear that the Spellcaster Sidekick is, in fact, a worse spellcaster than any of the PC spellcaster classes. As it is intended.


There is no metric by which a Spellcaster Sidekick would be a better Warlock than the Warlock.

Mostly concur. There are metrics that make it better ("total spells you can cast in a single encounter"), they're just not persuasive or useful metrics. Casting two 3rd level spells (e.g. Fear and Fireball) and four Agonizing Repelling Blasts of Lethargy is just plain better than e.g. casting Shatter twice and Thunderwave four times.

I saw this thread title, didn't read the thread but did go and read Tasha's, expecting to find that Sidekicks get spell recharge on a short rest or something... found nothing of the sort.


the problem with warlock is you get all those neat class features but then just spam eldritch blast in combat. 2 spell slots per battle for most of your character's career just isn't enough to work with. I'm not saying the spellcaster sidekick is good compared to any other full caster, but the warlock's design is so screwed up it's worse at spellcasting than most half-casters

It's pretty good with summoning spells, e.g. Summon Greater Demon or the new Summon Shadowspawn (a.k.a. Lesser-Fear-but-then-you-also-get-a-minion) or, with House Lyrandar Dragonmarks, Conjure Elemental. Sure, you spam Eldritch Blast while you're managing your minion (with the occasional Synaptic Static or Fireball or upcast Command: Flee or Armor of Agathys, etc., mixed in). But it's about twice the power of Eldritch Blast by itself, and in some ways twice the fun both in and out of combat--for example you can conjure an Earth Elemental and have it go spy on someone or something from belowground, with its Earth Glide and tremorsense. Effectively you are asking the DM to say "an hour passes and now here's a bunch of info about what's in front of you," and it should usually work as long as you know Terran.


Maybe the difference in philosophy boils down to battle length. In my experience, battles usually last 5-8 turns and are high-intensity, consuming a lot of resources that warlocks don't have. I'm not used to the style of gameplay that features a half dozen 2-round combats a day with short rests in between.

I like long battles too (have plenty of short ones, a smaller amount of 5-10 round Deadly x3-6 battles, and a handful of battles that last literally hours in-game due to a temporary Mexican standoff or similar). Even in those battles I'd generally rather have two 3th level spells than four 1st and two 2nd level spells. There are some cool 1st and 2nd level spells (Web, Expeditious Retreat, Spike Growth) but they're generally concentration, which means spell slots aren't the limiting factor. Also, invocations are very powerful--Agonizing Blast is good but maybe not even the best of them, and they stack.

[ftafp]

It's pretty good with summoning spells, e.g. Summon Greater Demon or the new Summon Shadowspawn (a.k.a. Lesser-Fear-but-then-you-also-get-a-minion) or, with House Lyrandar Dragonmarks, Conjure Elemental. Sure, you spam Eldritch Blast while you're managing your minion (with the occasional Synaptic Static or Fireball or upcast Command: Flee or Armor of Agathys, etc., mixed in). But it's about twice the power of Eldritch Blast by itself, and in some ways twice the fun both in and out of combat--for example you can conjure an Earth Elemental and have it go spy on someone or something from belowground, with its Earth Glide and tremorsense. Effectively you are asking the DM to say "an hour passes and now here's a bunch of info about what's in front of you," and it should usually work as long as you know Terran.

With the exception of Summon Shadowspawn those summon spells take a full minute to cast and have rather consequences if you lose concentration. Your mention of casting fireball twice is great, which is true if someone is playing a fiend warlock, but not everyone does. Also, not all spells are about blasting. The bard spell list opens up a wide variety of buffs, debuffs, healing spells and utilities that warlocks have to choose a subclass to get. (e.g. healing word, dissonant whispers, faeri fire, heat metal, blindness/deafness, etc.)

[Ashrym]

The spell level progression and spells known for the side kick is very lacking compared to a warlock let alone other class features.

I'm not worried.

[Toadkiller]

I hope to never see one in action. Secondary characters, pets and familiars. Boring, slowing and tedious.

[ftafp]

I hope to never see one in action. Secondary characters, pets and familiars. Boring, slowing and tedious.

my intent was to play one as a player character rather than a secondary, which the section on sidekicks mentions is an option

[Greywander]

I've wondered.. since the Bard and Warlock spell lists are accessible if the caster is CHA-based.. how about allowing the Sorcerer spell list too? Too much of a good thing is amazing!:)
I find the unification of the warlock and bard lists especially interesting because I've done the same thing before. I've played with a couple different homebrew ideas where you get to choose a spell list (some not unlike the sidekick spellcaster), and to simplify things I unified all the spell lists into four categories: Arcane for wizard and sorcerer, Divine for cleric and paladin, Primal for druid and ranger, and Orphic for warlock and bard. That last one comes from the mythological figure of Orpheus, a musician who descended into the underworld to rescue his wife or something. Not sure where the artificer would fit, or if it even should. I don't think there are any artificer-only spells at the moment, so every spell would still be accessible even without access to the artificer list.

As to the OP, I'll have to join in on disagreeing. The sidekick has some nice stuff, but it doesn't have invocations, and its spell progression is that of a half caster, so you get access to new spell levels later than a warlock does. Things like Repelling Blast take EB from a simple damage spam to an actually tactical spell. That's not even getting into things like Misty Visions or any of the other great invocations. About the only think the sidekick has going for it are the extra spell slots and some minor damage buffs. I would say that a warlock would probably win in a 1v1, but blowing all their resources on one fight would favor the sidekick. I definitely think that doing some kind of extended tournament, e.g. two back-to-back 1v1 fights, followed by a short rest, three times (six fights total), would see the warlock win, hands down. And warlocks can do more than fight.

[Chaos Jackal]

So... a spellcasting class that gets a fraction of a warlock's abilities, several levels late (in particular, delaying two of the most important things for spellcasters, spell progression and spells known) is better than a warlock at the same things by virtue of a bigger list and more long rest slots.

Yeah, no, the above sentence doesn't add up. The ability to replicate agonizing blast at lv6 does not a warlock make.

[sophontteks]

At the most basic level, a warlock is a ranger that uses EB instead of a bow. It is pretty much the only caster that can keep up with martial characters using at-will attacks. Their invisible familiars make amazing scouting and utility, and several invocations provide great out of combat utility.

There are many "trap" options for warlocks, and many new players struggle to use short rests. This makes them more of an advanced class in my opinion, where it takes an experienced player to pick complimentary abilities to get the most out of them.

In my experience people simultaneously think they are UP all while many DMs nerf some of their stronger powers, believing them OP.

Some of the most commonly known powerful warlock flavors include:

Mask of many faces + actor + invisible scout:
Use familiar to scout ahead for diguises. Take on disguises. Take leisurely scrolls into enemy strongholds and destroy the reputation of your target.

Drow/tiefling + EB + darkness + elven accuracy + Devils Sight:
Drow or tiefling for extra darkness. Since darkness lasts 10 minutes it'll last multiple fights and can be cast before combat begins. If something takes more then 10 minutes you can probably short rest. Double advantage against most enemies while they have disadvantage. Can be turned on/off once/round as a free action.

Hex, maddening hex, sign of ill omen, invisible familier
Hex lasts 8 hours eventually, so you simply have your familiar catch a rat while you sleep, kill it when you wake up, and take a short rest right after. Now you have a free hex all day. Use fiend warlock for the list of non-concentration spells. Moving hex to a new target doesn't have the "tells" of casting a spell. Use it out of combat against a targets wisdom, or to influence some other contested roll. Maddening hex is...maddening as there again is no tell linking the damage to you. Finally sign of ill omen can be delivered by your familiar, who is invisible, and again is not casting the spell.

[MoiMagnus]

Maybe the difference in philosophy boils down to battle length. In my experience, battles usually last 5-8 turns and are high-intensity, consuming a lot of resources that warlocks don't have. I'm not used to the style of gameplay that features a half dozen 2-round combats a day with short rests in between.

It's not battle length, it's number of short rest.
If you get your two short rest per long rest, you get 6 max level spell slots per day, which is huge.

This mean that warlock gameplay is a lot of high-impact spells (like two hypnotic patterns per fight at level 5), with some at-will effects in betweens.

If you get anything less than that, then yes, Warlock is crap, but you should probably ask your DM to change the "2 slots per short rest" into "6 slots per long rest" to compensate for the unorthodox gameplay.

[Gignere]

It's not battle length, it's number of short rest.
If you get your two short rest per long rest, you get 6 max level spell slots per day, which is huge.

This mean that warlock gameplay is a lot of high-impact spells (like two hypnotic patterns per fight at level 5), with some at-will effects in betweens.

If you get anything less than that, then yes, Warlock is crap, but you should probably ask your DM to change the "2 slots per short rest" into "6 slots per long rest" to compensate for the unorthodox gameplay.

I never played a warlock but I DMed a few, almost always after a few games the players want a new character/class to play. The problem they tell me and from my observations are that warlocks are fine for the easy fights, maybe more than fine.

The problems come in the big fights, whether it’s against bosses or a series of encounters, that’s when they feel frustrated because these are the fights you need to go big or go home. Invariably the warlocks are left spamming eldritch blast. While they watch longingly at the bards/clerics/druids/sorcerers/wizards pulling out spells after spells after spells.

They come to me after a few games and ask for a reroll the only warlock I had long term was a bard dipping hexblade.

I guess ultimately it comes down to expectations, a lot of newer players think warlock evil spell caster instead of 5e implementation of really arcane ranger.

[MoiMagnus]

I never played a warlock but I DMed a few, almost always after a few games the players want a new character/class to play. The problem they tell me and from my observations are that warlocks are fine for the easy fights, maybe more than fine.

The problems come in the big fights, whether it’s against bosses or a series of encounters, that’s when they feel frustrated because these are the fights you need to go big or go home. Invariably the warlocks are left spamming eldritch blast. While they watch longingly at the bards/clerics/druids/sorcerers/wizards pulling out spells after spells after spells.

They come to me after a few games and ask for a reroll the only warlock I had long term was a bard dipping hexblade.

I guess ultimately it comes down to expectations, a lot of newer players think warlock evil spell caster instead of 5e implementation of really arcane ranger.

Indeed, if you have frequently "go big or go home", then the warlock is not really fun to play since you can't "go big". (But you're rearonably good at "go home", assuming the remaining of the party is ok with you casting invisibility on everyone and then running away).

Per their resource structure, it's more fair to compare Warlock to martial characters rather than other spellcasters.
Warlock traded the usual "martial HP & AC" against the invocations, and effects like "Action Surge" against some spell slots per short rest. They have the same feeling of having a consistent strength with no way of going more "all in" than your default strength.

Abundance of magical items (including scrolls, or objects that store spells) helps a lot for high level, and are required if you want to play it as a regular "full spellcaster".

[cutlery]

Lower level slots are nice, but I'd take invocations and mystic arcanum over those; despite all the problems of MA.

Compare the spellcaster with a warlock/sorcerer or bard multiclass. It's weak, and weak on purpose.

[Willie the Duck]

Fundamentally I disagree with the premise. The sidekick caster is not a better warlock than the warlock. It may well be a better caster of the spells on the warlock spell list than the warlock, but the two concepts are not the same thing. It also has the bard spell list, does that make it a better bard than a bard is? Of course not, since a huge part of playing a bard is the fun you get to have with inspiration dice, skill support, and so on. Same with warlock -- the invocations, pacts, and yes even EB spam (or, in my campaigns, Silent Image spam) are part of the experience of the character.


the problem with warlock is you get all those neat class features but then just spam eldritch blast in combat. 2 spell slots per battle for most of your character's career just isn't enough to work with. I'm not saying the spellcaster sidekick is good compared to any other full caster, but the warlock's design is so screwed up it's worse at spellcasting than most half-casters

I think this is the primary issue here. Although I think they could use a bump up, I don't see them being similar to half-casters a problem. Despite warlocks getting spells from levels 0 to 9, it doesn't necessarily have to have spellcasting (and here I am excluding invocation-based spells) that are on par with other 0-9 casters. That is not an inherent requirement.

Let's be clear, having a 3rd casting per battle would be very good for single-classed warlocks. I do think that they should get their 3rd slot earlier. This is a weakness of the warlock. However, particularly in a group where they get in enough short rests, I think a warlock is fine and different, but not inferior, to this sidekick choice.

[Gignere]

Indeed, if you have frequently "go big or go home", then the warlock is not really fun to play since you can't "go big". (But you're rearonably good at "go home", assuming the remaining of the party is ok with you casting invisibility on everyone and then running away).

Per their resource structure, it's more fair to compare Warlock to martial characters rather than other spellcasters.
Warlock traded the usual "martial HP & AC" against the invocations, and effects like "Action Surge" against some spell slots per short rest. They have the same feeling of having a consistent strength with no way of going more "all in" than your default strength.

Abundance of magical items (including scrolls, or objects that store spells) helps a lot for high level, and are required if you want to play it as a regular "full spellcaster".

I mean go big or go home fights happens, even if it is one out of 4/5 or even 6 encounters. These also tend to be the most memorable encounters. No one cares about the easy encounters they talk about the big fight after the game and that’s exactly when a warlock fails to perform.

So basically at every climax the warlock feels inadequate.

[KorvinStarmast]

the problem with warlock is you get all those neat class features but then just spam eldritch blast in combat. Some of us do other things. Broaden your field of view, that's my suggestion. (I do like to be able to Repelling blast a monster into a web or a wall of fire, though. Handy)

Secondary characters, pets and familiars. Boring, slowing and tedious. Familiars have about 1 HP. If they get to be tedious, one hit and they are gone.

[RogueJK]

no Invocations
...
There is no metric by which a Spellcaster Sidekick would be a better Warlock than the Warlock.

Agreed.

However, it's worth pointing out that if you really want your Sidekick to have an Invocation, you can have them take the Eldritch Adept feat in place of one of their ASIs.

[Steampunkette]

5-8 rounds of combat? Cool!

Spamming Eldritch Blast on most of those rounds? Less cool!

Using your limited spellcasting options to shift things around and bend the action economy by granting actions to familiars, helping allies, or using Invocations while also Eldritch Blasting? Cool!

Combining Pact of the Blade attack designs with eldritch blasts for a melee-ranged arcane-fighter concept who occasionally pulls out crazy spells? AWESOME.

The main issue is most players play the game with the "I must deal X Damage per turn or I'm useless!" and fling themselves at a fainting couch like a debutante who finds out she wore the same style of gown as her less well off friend.

Warlocks are -flexible- characters. They're not Spellcasters, they're Magic Characters. Innate, external, internal, and otherwise.

[AdAstra]

Yeah, the Warlock actually ends up being one of those classes that can go big every encounter, if you can manage short rests often enough. And on single-encounter days, the Warlock's still not that far behind, considering how it's competitive with full-casters the first two rounds, but has martial levels of at-will stuff the rest of the time. Invocations have a big impact as well, both in terms of fun stuff you can do and raw power.

Like, if you can manage two short rests a day, that's 6 of your highest level spell slot every day. Yes, if you completely isolate Warlock's spellcasting by itself it will lag behind, but that does a disservice to every other class feature, of which Warlock has a lot.

[cutlery]

Never mind that you are waiting a lot longer to get those 5th level slots.

[MaxWilson]

With the exception of Summon Shadowspawn those summon spells take a full minute to cast and have rather consequences if you lose concentration. Your mention of casting fireball twice is great, which is true if someone is playing a fiend warlock, but not everyone does. Also, not all spells are about blasting. The bard spell list opens up a wide variety of buffs, debuffs, healing spells and utilities that warlocks have to choose a subclass to get. (e.g. healing word, dissonant whispers, faeri fire, heat metal, blindness/deafness, etc.)

What's wrong with taking a minute to cast Conjure Earth Elemental? It lasts for an hour (concentration), and if it turns out to not be needed (send it off to scout and it reports no enemies), you haven't lost anything but time--and you're a warlock so you probably got that spell slot mostly back while it was busy scouting and you were resting. (Just wait until it's been a full hour and your short rest is done.) If it does report enemies you can finish your rest and re-cast another, or abort your rest and attack immediately. Either way casting time is not an issue.

If casting time is an issue you can pick a spell like Summon Greater Demon which takes only an action to cast instead of 1 minute. Just make sure you cast it near a bunch of bad guys so that even if the demon does break free it's attacking them instead of you. (If there weren't a bunch of bad guys around you would be casting Conjure Earth Elemental instead of Summon Greater Demon.)

I don't get your complaint about Fireball and not playing a Fiendlock. It's an example, hardly the only worthwhile spell. Other patrons offer other spells and abilities, and the base warlock list also has stuff like Synaptic Static and Fear and Hypnotic Pattern and Danse Macabre. Surely Fireball isn't the only spell you're interested in casting?


I mean go big or go home fights happens, even if it is one out of 4/5 or even 6 encounters. These also tend to be the most memorable encounters. No one cares about the easy encounters they talk about the big fight after the game and that’s exactly when a warlock fails to perform.

So basically at every climax the warlock feels inadequate.

Summoning a big demon that you expect to go uncontrolled (but still attacking the enemy because you placed it closer to them than you), and then summoning another demon or casting a crowd control spell, and blasting enemies off mounts/buildings or into difficult terrain/hazards... IMO that's pretty big. Furthermore, by virtue of being able to go big more often, you're helping ensure that the wizards/druids still have their big guns for the big fights, instead of having to waste them on getting to the big fight (or save them for getting away from the big fight). You can be the one who summons Dybbuks to Dimension Door everyone in the party to the underground cistern below the enemy fortress--instead of the wizard having to spend five 4th level spells moving four PCs. Sure you might have to rest for a while after that before starting your assault, but unlike the wizard you can actually do that and be back at full strength, having lost nothing but time.

At lower levels though it doesn't feel as good. Are you talking about Tier 1 warlocks?

[Ashrym]

I find warlocks don't suffer during long encounters compared to other casters unless the other casters aren't casting much for spells in the other encounters. This is because all pact spells are max spell level while most standard caster spells are not.

Using the hypnotic pattern or fireball example I don't feel casting either 6 times in a game day when the wizard cast 2 of them plus several weaker spells is that bad at all. That's higher impact spells more often.

The 8 round combats breaks down because a constant run of those doesn't allow for 48 spell slots from a wizard over a day so those invocations favor the warlock.

At higher levels a warlock who can spend 2 mystic arcanum and 3 5th-level pact slots isn't struggling to compare to a wizard who spends a 7th-level, 6th-level, 2 5th-level, and a 4th-level slot blowing his or her big load on a single combat.

The scenario where the full caster is better requires the assumption of a long battle with a full complement of unused spell slots. Spellcasters who can't cast their spells until the final boss battle suck most of the time in comparison and this really only occurs in the upper half of the second tier of play when it does happen.

Unless the DM allows long rests at will, which would be players blaming the system for bad DMing.

The pact magic mechanic isn't an issue because players play warlocks for the invocations. Tome already gives more utility cantrips than other classes, book of ancient secrets adds strong ritual ability, and just silent image makes for a good caster style. Arcane eye at will later is even better. Other casters are using slots for things warlocks are doing at will.

Playing a warlock is a lot more than pact magic and eldritch blast.

[Steampunkette]

Never mind that you are waiting a lot longer to get those 5th level slots.

Warlock: Gains 2 5th level slots at 9th level
Wizard: Gains 1 5th level slot at 9th level

Waiting... longer?

Nonsense! The Warlock can reasonably launch 6 5th level spells in a day at 9th level.

[MaxWilson]

Warlock: Gains 2 5th level slots at 9th level
Wizard: Gains 1 5th level slot at 9th level

Waiting... longer?

Nonsense! The Warlock can reasonably launch 6 5th level spells in a day at 9th level.

I believe cutler was comparing Warlocks to Sidekicks, per the thread title, not to wizards. Sidekicks don't get 5th level spells until level 17 IIRC.

[Steampunkette]

Ahhhh... I misunderstood!

Good point, Cutlery!

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Never mind that you are waiting a lot longer to get those 5th level slots.

Yeah, it kind of feels like the OP is comparing a level 20 Sepllcaster Sidekick to a level 10 Warlock and not noticing the hiccup.

[Gignere]

I find warlocks don't suffer during long encounters compared to other casters unless the other casters aren't casting much for spells in the other encounters. This is because all pact spells are max spell level while most standard caster spells are not.

Using the hypnotic pattern or fireball example I don't feel casting either 6 times in a game day when the wizard cast 2 of them plus several weaker spells is that bad at all. That's higher impact spells more often.

The 8 round combats breaks down because a constant run of those doesn't allow for 48 spell slots from a wizard over a day so those invocations favor the warlock.

At higher levels a warlock who can spend 2 mystic arcanum and 3 5th-level pact slots isn't struggling to compare to a wizard who spends a 7th-level, 6th-level, 2 5th-level, and a 4th-level slot blowing his or her big load on a single combat.

The scenario where the full caster is better requires the assumption of a long battle with a full complement of unused spell slots. Spellcasters who can't cast their spells until the final boss battle suck most of the time in comparison and this really only occurs in the upper half of the second tier of play when it does happen.

Unless the DM allows long rests at will, which would be players blaming the system for bad DMing.

The pact magic mechanic isn't an issue because players play warlocks for the invocations. Tome already gives more utility cantrips than other classes, book of ancient secrets adds strong ritual ability, and just silent image makes for a good caster style. Arcane eye at will later is even better. Other casters are using slots for things warlocks are doing at will.

Playing a warlock is a lot more than pact magic and eldritch blast.

This maybe true at higher levels but as a DM for at least three warlocks that asked to reroll generally this is what happens.

Warlock player casts hex, they have one spell slot left, oops got hit loses concentration. Cast hex again damn I’m out of juice already.

During big climatic fights it’s like hex, and then they cast something else and the BBEG makes the save and that’s it, the rest of the battle they are just casting EB.

Whereas the other casters although they don’t come in full but they usually still have more than 2 spell slots. So they usually can cast something for the whole fight, like maybe repeated Thunderwave from the bard, healing words, wizards are doing his thing. Clerics are dropping their SG, SW, and guiding bolts.

That’s what the players want based on the name and typical connotation of what a warlock is. So that’s why a lot of them reroll to some other casting class.

[AdAstra]

This maybe true at higher levels but as a DM for at least three warlocks that asked to reroll generally this is what happens.

Warlock player casts hex, they have one spell slot left, oops got hit loses concentration. Cast hex again damn I’m out of juice already.

During big climatic fights it’s like hex, and then they cast something else and the BBEG makes the save and that’s it, the rest of the battle they are just casting EB.

Whereas the other casters although they don’t come in full but they usually still have more than 2 spell slots. So they usually can cast something for the whole fight, like maybe repeated Thunderwave from the bard, healing words, wizards are doing his thing. Clerics are dropping their SG, SW, and guiding bolts.

That’s what the players want based on the name and typical connotation of what a warlock is. So that’s why a lot of them reroll to some other casting class.

Well, they got hit while concentrating and presumably not having anything to mitigate concentration saves, so that there's a bit of a mistake. If it's feasible to avoid getting hit, they should do that, and if it isn't, they should be casting something that will actually have an immediate or unavoidable impact and doesn't broadcast as big of a "Hit Me" sign. Especially when you've got 3rd level spells available. Even spells like Hunger of Hadar and Hypnotic Pattern will likely reduce incoming damage for a while even if it encourages enemies to focus on you. Hex provides no similar defensive element.

When you've got two spell slots to work with, the most obvious game plan is to lead with something nice and hurty. Your remaining spell slot will then be held in reserve to react to changing battlefield conditions, or get yourself out of a tight spot. If you never need it, then nice, you can carry it into the next encounter should you not get a chance to rest.

Also, at the level you seem to be playing at (5+?), Eldritch Blast should be doing significantly more damage than 1st level damage spells. 2 x (1d10+4) is 19 damage potential, nearly as much as Scorching Ray. So your at-will is on the level of what most casters have to spend resources to achieve.

I've played with a fair number of warlocks and haven't seen any dissatisfaction, so I think your players might just have a different style that doesn't jive with the class.

Hex spam is helped a lot by starting Sorcerer and getting at least a few levels over time. Con Save proficiency helps you keep Hex up, and 1-3 levels in a regular casting class gives you lots of Hex slots, as well as some additional good spells like Shield. Arguably Hex is one of those things that helps Warlock dips more than Warlocks (story of the whole class), but that doesn't make the base class weak.

[Gignere]

Well, they got hit while concentrating and presumably not having anything to mitigate concentration saves, so that there's a bit of a mistake. If it's feasible to avoid getting hit, they should do that, and if it isn't, they should be casting something that will actually have an immediate or unavoidable impact and doesn't broadcast as big of a "Hit Me" sign. Especially when you've got 3rd level spells available. Even spells like Hunger of Hadar and Hypnotic Pattern will likely reduce incoming damage for a while even if it encourages enemies to focus on you. Hex provides no similar defensive element.

When you've got two spell slots to work with, the most obvious game plan is to lead with something nice and hurty. Your remaining spell slot will then be held in reserve to react to changing battlefield conditions, or get yourself out of a tight spot. If you never need it, then nice, you can carry it into the next encounter should you not get a chance to rest.

Also, at the level you seem to be playing at (5+?), Eldritch Blast should be doing significantly more damage than 1st level damage spells. 2 x (1d10+4) is 19 damage potential, nearly as much as Scorching Ray. So your at-will is on the level of what most casters have to spend resources to achieve.

I've played with a fair number of warlocks and haven't seen any dissatisfaction, so I think your players might just have a different style that doesn't jive with the class.

Hex spam is helped a lot by starting Sorcerer and getting at least a few levels over time. Con Save proficiency helps you keep Hex up, and 1-3 levels in a regular casting class gives you lots of Hex slots, as well as some additional good spells like Shield. Arguably Hex is one of those things that helps Warlock dips more than Warlocks (story of the whole class), but that doesn't make the base class weak.

I don’t think the players found the warlock weak just dissatisfied, they wanted to play an evil spell caster or more like an anti hero spell caster, but for the most part they ended up just spamming EB. Probably more like cognitive dissonance they wanted more casting and less magical archery.

Can better mastery help them? Sure, but no other class I DMed had that many rerolls. From 3 different players.

[solidork]

If they think casting EB every round is boring, why on earth are they using their spell slots on Hex - which is only good if you do that?

I don't have any complaints with my Warlock and I've played him from 8-17.

[ftafp]

It's not battle length, it's number of short rest.
If you get your two short rest per long rest, you get 6 max level spell slots per day, which is huge.

This mean that warlock gameplay is a lot of high-impact spells (like two hypnotic patterns per fight at level 5), with some at-will effects in betweens.

If you get anything less than that, then yes, Warlock is crap, but you should probably ask your DM to change the "2 slots per short rest" into "6 slots per long rest" to compensate for the unorthodox gameplay.

I think this is the issue here that's causing my difference in perspective. I've never seen a party take more than one short rest per day, but my view is slightly skewed because my game experience has been more "you can't rest now, there are enemies nearby" or "you need to walk halfway across the city to get to the next plot point, that's not light activity"

[AdAstra]

I think this is the issue here that's causing my difference in perspective. I've never seen a party take more than one short rest per day, but my view is slightly skewed because my game experience has been more "you can't rest now, there are enemies nearby" or "you need to walk halfway across the city to get to the next plot point, that's not light activity"

That's why it's always nice to get a rickshaw, er, "loot cart". Ride in style while getting those slots back.

[Unoriginal]

If they think casting EB every round is boring, why on earth are they using their spell slots on Hex - which is only good if you do that?

Have to ask the same question.

There's plenty of interesting spells in the Warlock list for those who want an evil/antihero feel. Both versions of Summon Demon, for starter.

[MoiMagnus]

I think this is the issue here that's causing my difference in perspective. I've never seen a party take more than one short rest per day, but my view is slightly skewed because my game experience has been more "you can't rest now, there are enemies nearby" or "you need to walk halfway across the city to get to the next plot point, that's not light activity"

Our DM, depending on the campaign, tend to go in one of the two extremes:
+ "Sure, you can short rest anytime, you're supposed to get a short rest frequently".
+ "No, you can't really short rest here. You can't really long rest either, expect one real long rest per week and one short rest per night."

[MaxWilson]

This maybe true at higher levels but as a DM for at least three warlocks that asked to reroll generally this is what happens.

Warlock player casts hex, they have one spell slot left, oops got hit loses concentration. Cast hex again damn I’m out of juice already.

During big climatic fights it’s like hex, and then they cast something else and the BBEG makes the save and that’s it, the rest of the battle they are just casting EB.

Whereas the other casters although they don’t come in full but they usually still have more than 2 spell slots. So they usually can cast something for the whole fight, like maybe repeated Thunderwave from the bard, healing words, wizards are doing his thing. Clerics are dropping their SG, SW, and guiding bolts.

That’s what the players want based on the name and typical connotation of what a warlock is. So that’s why a lot of them reroll to some other casting class.

Well there's your problem. If the only spell they're casting is an upcast first-level Hex, no wonder they've found it underwhelming. Cast better spells. Hex isn't terrible for a first-level spell (it has a good action economy and an interesting rider) but it's not spam-worthy. Upcasting Hex is usually a mistake.

[Azuresun]

Our DM, depending on the campaign, tend to go in one of the two extremes:
+ "Sure, you can short rest anytime, you're supposed to get a short rest frequently".
+ "No, you can't really short rest here. You can't really long rest either, expect one real long rest per week and one short rest per night."

I just went with "Short rests take 5-10 minutes, but you can only benefit from two between each long rest."

One hour just feels vaguely unnatural--if you can rest for one hour without danger or distractions, you can usually also rest for eight.

[MaxWilson]

I just went with "Short rests take 5-10 minutes, but you can only benefit from two between each long rest."

One hour just feels vaguely unnatural--if you can rest for one hour without danger or distractions, you can usually also rest for eight.

But long rests are on a 24 hour schedule. Unless it's already been 16 hours since your last long rest, 8 hours of rest will not be enough. You might as well just rest for one hour and then do something useful until it's time to go to bed and take a long rest.

[AdAstra]

I just went with "Short rests take 5-10 minutes, but you can only benefit from two between each long rest."

One hour just feels vaguely unnatural--if you can rest for one hour without danger or distractions, you can usually also rest for eight.

Yeah, personally, I think half an hour makes more sense as a "short" rest. 30 minutes is like a short lunch break, nap, or first aid stop. It's a pretty simple house rule though.

Of course, at least with the 6-8 encounter 2 short rest paradigm, you don't want to make short rests TOO easy to get. Warlocks and Monks don't really need reigning in, but it can make sense to limit the max number of short rests if you make them easier. Maybe 3 or so.

[Azuresun]

Of course, at least with the 6-8 encounter 2 short rest paradigm, you don't want to make short rests TOO easy to get. Warlocks and Monks don't really need reigning in, but it can make sense to limit the max number of short rests if you make them easier. Maybe 3 or so.

Pet peeve triggered: The DMG says 6-8 encounters if they are all Medium or Hard difficulty, with more easier encounters or fewer harder encounters being 100% supported by the rules. If you disagree with that assessment of difficulty, that's another issue, but the rules do not mandate 6-8 and never ever have. I sometimes wonder how many people actually read that section for themselves, given how common the misconception seems to be.

/pet peeve

[Zalabim]

Pet peeve triggered: The DMG says 6-8 encounters if they are all Medium or Hard difficulty, with more easier encounters or fewer harder encounters being 100% supported by the rules. If you disagree with that assessment of difficulty, that's another issue, but the rules do not mandate 6-8 and never ever have. I sometimes wonder how many people actually read that section for themselves, given how common the misconception seems to be.

/pet peeve

As long as we're peeving, the DMG then goes on to give a chart that produces only up to 6 barely even medium encounters as the upper limit for most levels. For actually medium or hard difficulty encounters, 3-6 encounters in a day would describe 80-90% of the levels from 1-20. If you're planning 3 encounters this day, short rests can't be too easy to get.

[Tanarii]

In contrast to warlocks who use pact magic and thus get only 2 spell slots, the spellcaster sidekick is a spellcaster with the same spellcaster progression as an artificer. In other words, you have more than 2 spell slots!
To be blunt about it, either you don't understand how Pact Magic works, or don't understand how short rests work.

[MoiMagnus]

To be blunt about it, either you don't understand how Pact Magic works, or don't understand how short rests work.

He explained in a later post that his table essentially do not take short rests. He's literally never seen a party take more than one short rest between two long rests, because

my game experience has been more "you can't rest now, there are enemies nearby" or "you need to walk halfway across the city to get to the next plot point, that's not light activity"

Quite obviously, if the only short rest is the lunch break, warlock is not that great. And that's even worse if all the easy encounters are before the short rest, and all the difficult & interesting ones after.

[Tanarii]

Quite obviously, if the only short rest is the lunch break, warlock is not that great. And that's even worse if all the easy encounters are before the short rest, and all the difficult & interesting ones after.
True. Of course, not playing within the games design space breaks a lot more than just warlocks.

But trying to come to the boards when you know you're not playing in the games design space and make a universal claim based on it is a good way to get a ton of pushback and explanations that you're outside the games design space.

[MaxWilson]

I think this is the issue here that's causing my difference in perspective. I've never seen a party take more than one short rest per day, but my view is slightly skewed because my game experience has been more "you can't rest now, there are enemies nearby" or "you need to walk halfway across the city to get to the next plot point, that's not light activity"

"Enemies nearby" + Rope Trick = safe short rest anyway.

"Need to walk halfway across the city" + Tenser's Floating Disk = light activity for whoever is riding on the disk.

Obviously none of this matters if the game is so easy that PCs feel no pressure to cooperate with each other, but if game is hard and the party can get two extra 5th level Summon Greater Demon spells from the warlock plus another Action Surge and Second Wind for the Fighter plus more HP for everybody plus a 5th level slot for the wizard via Arcane Recovery plus more Wildshape/Channel Divinity/Bardic Inspiration /whatever, all for the price of a 2nd level Rope Trick, maybe they will consider doing so so that they can AVOID DYING.

Easy games give little to no reason for PCs to cooperate. Hard games apply Darwinian pressures.

[MoiMagnus]

Easy games give little to no reason for PCs to cooperate. Hard games apply Darwinian pressures.

I'm not sure that's a question of easy vs hard.

Sure, hard game force character cooperation, but that doesn't necessary mean player cooperation.
In an easy game, you can afford to follow a suboptimal resting pattern if that allows everyone to have fun. In a hard game, if the optimal play is "the warlock doesn't take a short rest because protecting him during that time is not worth it", then you can't afford to play suboptimally.

(Also don't forget that a lot of peoples lose at hard games instead of adapting, so the solutions you suggest might not come into the mind of anybody.)

[sophontteks]

I just went with "Short rests take 5-10 minutes, but you can only benefit from two between each long rest."

One hour just feels vaguely unnatural--if you can rest for one hour without danger or distractions, you can usually also rest for eight.
I'd argue the opposite. An hour of rest between fights is completely sensible when you consider everything that a reasonable person would need to do between these fights: Bandage wounds, repair armor, search corpses, clean and sharpen weapons, Drink/eat, stretch, plan next course of action.

What is unnatural is the blistering speed of combat where even the longest of fights wouldn't break 1 minute. This along with the assumption that all other actions taken out of combat also take the same time. For example: Searching an entire room in under 10 seconds.

We can even observe just how unnatural this is by looking at the actual timelapse in-game vs. round times. If you break everything down into rounds and actions you could go through several encounters in 5 minutes, yet the DM will conceptualize this as an entire adventuring day; Something like 2-8 hours, or more.

Where did all that time go?

If we were to look at this realistically, and forget 5e mechanics, rushing from fight to fight at a sprint without rest is just not possible. I'd argue that a short rest is basically the only part of 5e's time that makes any sense at all. Really, an hour is not a lot of time at all. It only seems like a lot of time because we look at it in a world where every task can be done in 6 seconds.

[Unoriginal]

If you break everything down into rounds and actions you could go through several encounters in 5 minutes, yet the DM will conceptualize this as an entire adventuring day; Something like 2-8 hours, or more.

Where did all that time go?

Exploring takes much more time than fighting.

[Tanarii]

Exploring takes much more time than fighting.
Only if you let them take ten times as long (move at 1/10 speed) to automatically succeed on searching for traps, secret doors, etc. Otherwise theyre basically hiking at speed through the dungeon using passive checks.

[MaxWilson]

I'm not sure that's a question of easy vs hard.

Sure, hard game force character cooperation, but that doesn't necessary mean player cooperation.
In an easy game, you can afford to follow a suboptimal resting pattern if that allows everyone to have fun. In a hard game, if the optimal play is "the warlock doesn't take a short rest because protecting him during that time is not worth it", then you can't afford to play suboptimally.

(Also don't forget that a lot of peoples lose at hard games instead of adapting, so the solutions you suggest might not come into the mind of anybody.)

Good points there. The issue is more complex than my previous post acknowledged--I guess I got carried away with a pet peeve. Not everybody responds the same way to Darwinian pressures, and not everybody plays D&D for the same reason.

[ftafp]

True. Of course, not playing within the games design space breaks a lot more than just warlocks.

But trying to come to the boards when you know you're not playing in the games design space and make a universal claim based on it is a good way to get a ton of pushback and explanations that you're outside the games design space.

i didn't know the game design was any different. its worked exactly the same way in every single campaign ive played

[AdAstra]

Pet peeve triggered: The DMG says 6-8 encounters if they are all Medium or Hard difficulty, with more easier encounters or fewer harder encounters being 100% supported by the rules. If you disagree with that assessment of difficulty, that's another issue, but the rules do not mandate 6-8 and never ever have. I sometimes wonder how many people actually read that section for themselves, given how common the misconception seems to be.

/pet peeve

To be fair, it's a lot easier to grasp than "encounters equaling x amount of adjusted XP based on level". While what an encounter actually is is really nebulous, it's less so than something like 10,000 XP. So long as you have at least 3 encounters per long rest, conniving two short rests is hardly impossible.


I'd argue the opposite. An hour of rest between fights is completely sensible when you consider everything that a reasonable person would need to do between these fights: Bandage wounds, repair armor, search corpses, clean and sharpen weapons, Drink/eat, stretch, plan next course of action.

What is unnatural is the blistering speed of combat where even the longest of fights wouldn't break 1 minute. This along with the assumption that all other actions taken out of combat also take the same time. For example: Searching an entire room in under 10 seconds.

We can even observe just how unnatural this is by looking at the actual timelapse in-game vs. round times. If you break everything down into rounds and actions you could go through several encounters in 5 minutes, yet the DM will conceptualize this as an entire adventuring day; Something like 2-8 hours, or more.

Where did all that time go?

If we were to look at this realistically, and forget 5e mechanics, rushing from fight to fight at a sprint without rest is just not possible. I'd argue that a short rest is basically the only part of 5e's time that makes any sense at all. Really, an hour is not a lot of time at all. It only seems like a lot of time because we look at it in a world where every task can be done in 6 seconds.

I like to think of DnD as happening in movie time. Stuff doesn't take more than 6 seconds because you don't really need more than that to convey what's going on in most cases. If something really needs longer, you can just skip over whatever amount of time is necessary. As for fights, ever watched some of the famous Kurosawa sequences? Yojimbo's climactic fight scene takes all of 20 seconds of actual fighting. That's usually how I look at DnD fights.