Getting the Most Out of a Land Druid

[Snownine]

I am hoping to play a druid for the first time in the not too distant future and am trying to get a handle on how they operate in combat. I want to go with the Land circle as I want to focus on the casting aspect of the class as the wildshape aspect does not really interest me. I am thinking of taking the grasslands option. It seems like I am going to be spending much of my time concentrating on one spell or another and I don't see a lot of interesting things to do with my turns while doing so. What kinds of things do you guys do with your druid's turns? How can I effectively use my action economy while maintaining concentration on my big spells? I almost always play martials and when I play spellcasters I usually go for the wizard. With the wizard I always feel like I have really great non concentration spells for most occasions so I have plenty to do even when keeping concentration up on other spells. How best to utilize a concentration starved class?

[HappyDaze]

I am hoping to play a druid for the first time in the not too distant future and am trying to get a handle on how they operate in combat. I want to go with the Land circle as I want to focus on the casting aspect of the class as the wildshape aspect does not really interest me. I am thinking of taking the grasslands option. It seems like I am going to be spending much of my time concentrating on one spell or another and I don't see a lot of interesting things to do with my turns while doing so.
Are you sure you really want to play a CotL Druid? Usually you're going to get off a spell and then use cantrips while sustaining it, so if that's not going to be fun for you, maybe look at something different (whether druid or not). There are a few other options for instantaneous damage if you are allowed to use Xanathar's and Tasha's spells.

[Snownine]

Are you sure you really want to play a CotL Druid? Usually you're going to get off a spell and then use cantrips while sustaining it, so if that's not going to be fun for you, maybe look at something different (whether druid or not). There are a few other options for instantaneous damage if you are allowed to use Xanathar's and Tasha's spells.

I love the flavor of the Xanathar druids but Dreams mechanics feel really uninteresting next to every other circle and summoning is such a slog in combat that I think Shepard would be annoying at the table. I have mixed feelings about the new Tasha druids, especially the nerfed Wildfire. Is Land the weakest circle?

[JellyPooga]

Just because you're a Druid, doesn't mean you have to solely be a spellslinger. Play a Dwarf or Half-Orc for the Con boost and endurance features (disclaimer: other races might suit also), pack Shillelagh in your lunchbox and wade in for some melee fun. Optimal? Eh, maybe not, but who cares? You'll be hitting people with a magic stick long before anyone else even has a magic knitting needle, let alone whatever pigsticker they want to swing for a living.

[Snownine]

Just because you're a Druid, doesn't mean you have to solely be a spellslinger. Play a Dwarf or Half-Orc for the Con boost and endurance features (disclaimer: other races might suit also), pack Shillelagh in your lunchbox and wade in for some melee fun. Optimal? Eh, maybe not, but who cares? You'll be hitting people with a magic stick long before anyone else even has a magic knitting needle, let alone whatever pigsticker they want to swing for a living.

I actually really love shillelagh, it is such a fun spell thematically. I already have a character though whom that is part of his shtick, he is a hill dwarf nature cleric, so I am looking for something different for this character. Do you think Land is competitive with the other Circles? I love the bonus spells but I just wonder if they really help as much as other Circle features giving the fact that many of the best spells from the different lands are concentration and therefore don't help in the area I think is the biggest weakness of the base class; which is figuring out what to do while concentrating on a spell.

[Houster]

I never played druid, but I looked at the spell list now and mold earth-earth tremor-erupting earth are really nice damage/control non concentration spells. Especially combined with spells like slow(arctic). Just be a control god. BTW druids get plant growth, which combined with erupting earth is creating a terrian that non flying creatures just cant get through(no save).
So say if you like grassland, Haste your buddy then throw plant growth or erupting earth and control the field no concentration required. The land druid is just icing on the cake, all druids can do this tactic with different concentration spells .

If you need more none concentration action- heal stuff.

Memorable land types that you may want to consider for non concentration spells- coast(mirror image, misty step), mountain(lightning bolt).
For always good concentration spells, arctic(slow) and grassland(haste), underdark(greater invisibilty).

Personally I'd go for coast, just because mirror image and misty step are great spells. Just concentrate on entangle or faerie fire(instead of slow of haste). Wonderful spells.

[da newt]

If you want to cast a concentration spell (control, terrain, etc), cantrip or other non-conc spells after that, it can be very handy if you can BA HIDE. Goblins make fun Druids.

Ludic's guide to land druids:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23809998&postcount=14

[Snownine]

I appreciate everyone's responses. I was hoping someone could sell me on the Land druid but maybe I should go with another circle. I really wanted to love Land but the more I try to think and plan with it the worse it looks. It seems like all the other druids get 95% of the spellcasting Land gets but also get better things to do in combat. Natural recovery seemed cool but it does not really feel like it is as big of a boost as arcane recovery is for wizards as so much of the druid list is concentration it seems like you would not be spending many slotted spells in combat.

[stoutstien]

Nothing wrong with land options as long as you have a good idea of what you will face so the bonus spell are useful. In the end land Druids are still full casters with bonus spell slot recovery it had to say that is anything but good.

[JellyPooga]

it seems like you would not be spending many slotted spells in combat.

I find it odd that you appear to consider this a bad thing.

If you're not spending slotted spells in combat, that means you're able to outside of it. If combat is your jam and where you get your kicks, sure, you might want to look elsewhere, but the Land Druids sustainable spellcasting practice (including Natural Recovery) means they're free to spend slots maintaining their animal companion training with Animal Friendship, chatting to the local wildlife (for gain or pleasure), improving party performance in...basically anything (e.g. PWT, Enhance Ability), etc.

Is any of this particularly unique to Land Druid? Not really. The additional slots from Natural Recovery are nice but hardly a game-changer. Where the Land Druid really has to look is at the bonus spells. For me, the Underdark list is where it's at. Web is an amazing addition to the Druid list as an upgraded Entangle, both Stinking Cloud and Gaseous Form are great spells; the former for action-control and concealment and the latter for infiltration (enhancing an already excellent ability to do so from Wild Shape). I'm sure I don't have to expound on how good Greater Invisibility or Cloudkill are.

The important thing to remember, though, is that regardless of which land type you choose, the spells ot offers are (like a Clerics domain spells) always prepared. That additional utility and possible additional options in combat, on top of Natural Recovery might not make them the most exciting Class to play in any given pillar of play, but it makes them able to contribute no matter what the party is doing. The Druid spell list is much better for practical every day utility than the Clerics, more flexible than the Bards and thematically laser-focused compared to the Sorcerer and the Land Druid not only has more versatility than Moon Druid, but gets to cast more spells in a day than any of them.

[Vegan Squirrel]

Keep in mind that some of your druid concentration spells, like heat metal, flaming sphere, and call lightning, can continue to deal additional damage as an action or bonus action, so that feels similar to casting a new attack spell every round. I recently built a druid, and like you I prefer to lean towards casting, but I went Circle of the Moon because I felt like the increased versatility of wild shape was stronger than a few bonus spells. In hindsight, I wouldn't mind a few more spells prepared, but I think it's a fair trade-off either way.

Anyway, back to the spells. I conceive of my combat tactics as casting a concentration spell in the first round, then using bonus actions to either pulse them for more damage or cast healing word, and my actions to either add a non-concentration battlefield control spell to keep the enemies where I want them, or to lob produce flame for a bit more damage. Primal savagery from Xanathar's is another melee cantrip choice, but I'll try to stay away from melee if possible. The cantrips don't sound like much, but if it's adding on top of a continuing spell, then it's adding up.

But really, play druid if you want to shape the battlefield with entangle, spike growth, sleet storm, and the like. Flaming sphere is a good go-to for damage on bonus actions. Wild shape is there for scouting or, if you go Moon, occasionally to fight. You've got ritual spells to gather recon from animals, and goodberry means you always have food. And you can be the healer when needed. So a druid is a pretty versatile character, contributing in a lot of ways, even if each individual action doesn't shine as much as a wizard spell.

[Nidgit]

Land Druids are great! They're tied with Wizard for the most spell slots available per long rest, and while they have a somewhat weaker spell list than Wizards they know have more spells prepared each day. Yes, their spell lists are typically pretty concentration-heavy, but there are typically 1-2 moderately powerful blasting spells available per level that often provide additional battlefield control.

The one thing they're not very good with is bonus actions and reactions. Healing Word is helpful when you're using your action to activate a spell's enduring effects, but it still might be worth it to take a dip in Rogue or some other class with more bonus action options to improve your economy.

That's something a lot of casters struggle with though. Land Druids are just nature Wizards and I mean that as a compliment.

[RogueJK]

Land Druids are great! They're tied with Wizard for the most spell slots available per long rest, and while they have a somewhat weaker spell list than Wizards they know have more spells prepared each day.

In addition, they can prepare their spells each day from the entire Druid list (plus Land spells), not just the spells that a Wizard has come across in the world and added to their spellbook.

Plus, due to them having a good number of long duration repeatable effect spells, Land Druids typically will burn through spells slots in combat a bit slower than a Wizard, so they effectively can have more slots per day available for spending on exploration/utility-type spells outside of combat.

They're the Swiss Army Knife of casters.


but there are typically 1-2 moderately powerful blasting spells available per level

Now including Cone of Cold, which used to only be available to Arctic Land Druids, but has been added to the overall Druid's spell list in Tasha's.

[x3n0n]

One thing that I noticed playing as a non-Moon Druid was that my Wild Shape was very cumbersome to use.

If you're using Tasha's, the new Wild Companion feature gives Druids the most convenient access to find familiar, which makes you feel even more like the "land wizard" mentioned above.

I don't like much of Mountain's spell list, but if you want Lightning Bolt as a way to burn slots in combat, it's waiting for you there. :)

Tasha's also adds fire shield and cone of cold to the base Druid list as non-concentration combat spells.

[RogueJK]

One thing that I noticed playing as a non-Moon Druid was that my Wild Shape was very cumbersome to use.


Non-Moon Druids typically aren't going to be relying on their Wild Shape for use in combat. Not only will their Wild Shape forms not scale well and therefore won't really be able to hold up in combat as you gain levels, but the fact it uses your entire Action does make it quite cumbersome to use in combat, since you're effectively having to spend an entire round just getting into your animal form.

Instead, it's primarily for out of combat exploration/infiltration/etc.; a similar out of combat role as the Familiar.

[nickl_2000]

Have you considered Wildfire Druid instead of Land? They don't get the spell refresh, but I will be honest I don't think Druids need the spell refresh. I played a moon druid and found that I always had spells left at the end of the day.

Wildfire gives you something to do with your Wildshape uses when you don't need to scout.

Also you have more options for non-concentration spells (Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, Fire Shield, Flame Strike, etc)

[RogueJK]

Also you have more options for non-concentration spells (Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, Fire Shield, Flame Strike, etc)

All Druids get Fire Shield now.



Wildfire gives you something to do with your Wildshape uses when you don't need to scout.


As does the new Stars Druid, if that's a concern. Stars also gives you a useful Bonus Action option, for times when you're not using spells like Flaming Sphere and Heat Metal.

[nickl_2000]

All Druids get Fire Shield now.



As does the new Stars Druid, if that's a concern. Stars also gives you a useful Bonus Action option for some combats, which is something that other Druids are sometimes lacking.

Fair points, Star Druid is also worth looking at it doesn't get as many circle spells, but it gets lots of other goodies.

[x3n0n]

Non-Moon Druids typically aren't going to be relying on their Wild Shape for use in combat. Not only will their Wild Shape forms not scale well and therefore won't really be able to hold up in combat as you gain levels, but the fact it uses your entire Action does make it quite cumbersome to use in combat, since you're effectively having to spend an entire round just getting into your animal form.

Instead, it's primarily for out of combat exploration/infiltration/etc.; a similar out of combat role as the Familiar.

100% agreed. I found myself using the Wild Shape as crappy THP occasionally, and it never really got better than that.

I think the Wild Companion familiar serves better than Wild Shape in many of those roles (especially pre-flying), plus the familiar gives the same action economy advantages as it does for wizards (Help, delivery of potion/goodberry/caltrops etc) and in a more-easily-replaceable manner, so you can even "switch forms" on short notice.

I think it's a considerable buff for Land, Shepherd, and Dreams.

[MrCharlie]

In my opinion the best land druid circle by far is mountain, as it helps with a vital spell level-third, giving you lightning bolt. Lightning bolt lacks the supremely convenient spherical AOE of fireball, but it does similar damage and occupies a 3rd level slot. Druids notably lack good blasts, and in particular good blasts from 3rd to 4th level that load up the damage now rather than taking 2-3 turns to activate. The best they have otherwise is tidal wave, which is a fine spell but does notably less damage (18 versus 28 average).

Lightning bolt helps tide them over between thunderwave at 1st, moonbeam/spike growth at 2nd, and cone of cold at 5th level, which are all some of the best blasts of their levels.

This isn't to say that blasting is the end-all be-all of druids, or spellcasters, or even their primary goal, or even that lightning bolt is a particularly good blast (the AOE is too inefficient to be truly great), but sometimes you need to waste some fools as an action. Between it, call lightning, and tidal wave, you can blast if it's appropriate in a variety of situations.

Other circles do other things well, with some getting decent debuffs or AOE control spells (artic, underdark) good buffs (grasslands, with haste, underdark again with greater invisibility) but most are at least decent choices. Very few get the best spells at any level, but the tend to be decent.

[Cygnia]

Grasslands druid here, just turned lvl 6. I'm finding that battlefield control has been my particular role in our fights thanks to Conjure Animals, Entangle and Spike Growth. Been using Moonbeam a lot too, but that's because our GM has a tendency to throw shapechangers at us! (3 different types of weres, a hag and changelings for starters).

Don't own Tasha's yet so I haven't been able to fully see what changes have been made to Land.

[Wuzza]

don't help in the area I think is the biggest weakness of the base class; which is figuring out what to do while concentrating on a spell.
The simple answer to this, for me, is beast mode. More than likely if you're concentrating on a spell, you will end up performing an attack of some description. Druids don't have an awful lot of options in this respect, imo. I quite often use both uses of wild shape in the same combat, finding the utility of spells and the various animal options (remember kids, there's more than just bear) to make a really well rounded class. Sure I'd like the extra spells of Land, but that would really be the icing on the cake.

[x3n0n]

The simple answer to this, for me, is beast mode. More than likely if you're concentrating on a spell, you will end up performing an attack of some description. Druids don't have an awful lot of options in this respect, imo. I quite often use both uses of wild shape in the same combat, finding the utility of spells and the various animal options (remember kids, there's more than just bear) to make a really well rounded class. Sure I'd like the extra spells of Land, but that would really be the icing on the cake.

I am quite surprised by this! If you're concentrating on a key spell, I would think you would want to avoid putting yourself in melee with an AC that is almost guaranteed to be worse than in your humanoid form.

I would have expected that to be an opportunity for a ranged attack of some kind, or even to Dash/Disengage/Hide/Dodge to make it less likely that your spell is disrupted. (If the spell is no longer of great value, I can see it, but then I'd expect a Land Druid to just let the low-value spell go and cast something new.)

[Wuzza]

I am quite surprised by this! If you're concentrating on a key spell, I would think you would want to avoid putting yourself in melee with an AC that is almost guaranteed to be worse than in your humanoid form.

I would have expected that to be an opportunity for a ranged attack of some kind, or even to Dash/Disengage/Hide/Dodge to make it less likely that your spell is disrupted. (If the spell is no longer of great value, I can see it, but then I'd expect a Land Druid to just let the low-value spell go and cast something new.)

I guess it's just how I roll. My current AC is 14 at level 7, which isn't really amazing, although quite good I guess for a caster. My current go to combat shape is winter wolf (with summon animal wolves, pack tactics is amazing for this) with an AC of 13. I count myself lucky if I get 3 rounds with a conc spell. (Dodging as a beast I find just as good, with the added HP buffer.)
I just find I have the best of both worlds going Moon.(actually 7/1 as I M/C'd as Sorc.). I guess ranged cantrips are pretty good, compared, but I like having the extra HP pool in combat. Obviously depends on the enemy makeup.

[Snownine]

Have you considered Wildfire Druid instead of Land? They don't get the spell refresh, but I will be honest I don't think Druids need the spell refresh. I played a moon druid and found that I always had spells left at the end of the day.

Wildfire gives you something to do with your Wildshape uses when you don't need to scout.

Also you have more options for non-concentration spells (Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, Fire Shield, Flame Strike, etc)

I do really like the Wildfire druid, especially the UA version over the Tasha's version that has had it's teeth pulled. I will almost certainly make one at some point but I am really feeling the flavor of Land for this particular character. It feels like the most "druid" druid, to me alongside the Circle of the Moon. My trepidation is that I am giving up too much for a handful of extra spells and that don't address the "nothing to do but sling cantrips all fight" feeling I am getting from the subclass, and the spell recovery ability that seems like it would rarely come up. It just stinks when the mechanics fall short of the subclass that has the flavor you want.

[x3n0n]

I guess it's just how I roll. My current AC is 14 at level 7, which isn't really amazing, although quite good I guess for a caster. My current go to combat shape is winter wolf (with summon animal wolves, pack tactics is amazing for this) with an AC of 13. I count myself lucky if I get 3 rounds with a conc spell. (Dodging as a beast I find just as good, with the added HP buffer.)
I just find I have the best of both worlds going Moon.(actually 7/1 as I M/C'd as Sorc.). I guess ranged cantrips are pretty good, compared, but I like having the extra HP pool in combat. Obviously depends on the enemy makeup.

Ohh, I didn't realize you were Moon. Yeah, then clearly that's the right thing to do most of the time.

The calculus changes A LOT when it takes your full action to transform and your eligible forms top out at 1/2 CR (that is, for everybody but Moon).

[Snownine]

I find it odd that you appear to consider this a bad thing.

If you're not spending slotted spells in combat, that means you're able to outside of it. If combat is your jam and where you get your kicks, sure, you might want to look elsewhere, but the Land Druids sustainable spellcasting practice (including Natural Recovery) means they're free to spend slots maintaining their animal companion training with Animal Friendship, chatting to the local wildlife (for gain or pleasure), improving party performance in...basically anything (e.g. PWT, Enhance Ability), etc.

Is any of this particularly unique to Land Druid? Not really. The additional slots from Natural Recovery are nice but hardly a game-changer. Where the Land Druid really has to look is at the bonus spells. For me, the Underdark list is where it's at. Web is an amazing addition to the Druid list as an upgraded Entangle, both Stinking Cloud and Gaseous Form are great spells; the former for action-control and concealment and the latter for infiltration (enhancing an already excellent ability to do so from Wild Shape). I'm sure I don't have to expound on how good Greater Invisibility or Cloudkill are.

The important thing to remember, though, is that regardless of which land type you choose, the spells ot offers are (like a Clerics domain spells) always prepared. That additional utility and possible additional options in combat, on top of Natural Recovery might not make them the most exciting Class to play in any given pillar of play, but it makes them able to contribute no matter what the party is doing. The Druid spell list is much better for practical every day utility than the Clerics, more flexible than the Bards and thematically laser-focused compared to the Sorcerer and the Land Druid not only has more versatility than Moon Druid, but gets to cast more spells in a day than any of them.

So, do you think it would be safe to say the biggest thing Land brings to the table is out of combat utility? The reason I wanted to go with grasslands is because haste is one of my favorite spells in the game and pass without trace is the kind of spell I would want to always have prepared. Myself and others at my table have used pass without trace extensively on rangers over the years. Invisibility is obviously not as good as it's great cousin, bit is still a neat trick to always have on hand.

[JellyPooga]

So, do you think it would be safe to say the biggest thing Land brings to the table is out of combat utility? The reason I wanted to go with grasslands is because haste is one of my favorite spells in the game and pass without trace is the kind of spell I would want to always have prepared. Myself and others at my table have used pass without trace extensively on rangers over the years. Invisibility is obviously not as good as it's great cousin, bit is still a neat trick to always have on hand.

For me, yes, I think that's a fair assessment, by and large. Land Druid does/can add some valuable options for combat, but the boon is the out-of-combat utility/versatility of having more spells prepared and available to cast per day. Always having Web prepared, for example, means not needing to prepare Entangle for battlefield area denial, which lets me prepare something else like PWT or Water Breathing or whatever instead.

With the exception of a scant couple of spells (e.g. Lightning Bolt and Melf's AA), Land Druid does little to nothing to change the Druids SOP; it just expands the options available at any given time.