Using Ambrosia for XP as neutral

[Obak]

We've got a source of ambrosia from BoEd that we can tap on regular basis.
We are a lvl 20+ party and we want to use it as a source of xp for casting spells, like create deniplane etc.
Problem is, none of us are good aligned (neutral) and to be use as a spell comp. the caster must be good.

So, how do we get around this problem?

[Doctor Despair]

Helm of Opposite Alignment?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Use Magic Device.

[Obak]

Helm of Opposite Alignment?
Too risky, DM might snatch the character if he turns evil and we try to change him back willy nilly (as per the text, the character automatically likes his new moral outlook). Also, can only be used once.

[Ajustusdaniel]

Deep self reflection and a sincere commitment to better yourself as a person?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Deep self reflection and a sincere commitment to better yourself as a person?Bah. Evil is just as valid an alignment as Good or Neutral. It has its own third of the Great Wheel devoted to it, and plenty of gods to back it up. Just invest in a +10 item of UMD. Much cheaper and easier.

[Crake]

Use Magic Device.

Ambrosia is an alchemical item, not a magic item, so you can't fool it with UMD.

Edit: Not even an alchemical item, it's just an optional material component. Either way, it's not UMDable.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ambrosia is an alchemical item, not a magic item, so you can't fool it with UMDThat is incorrect. It's listed as a spell component and is produced via spells, unlike literally every actual alchemical item. It has no craft DC, and is not listed as an alchemical item anywhere in the BoED.

[edit] Distilled Joy is Permanent, not Instantaneous. Therefore, ambrosia is magical, and it's suppressed in antimagic. It's also an item. Therefore, it is a magical item. UMD should work on it.

[Obak]

Use Magic Device.
Quickest and easiest way to get it to 30? Feats to get it as a class skill?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Quickest and easiest way to get it as a class skill?Cross-classed rank and a +10 item? It's only 1,000 gp in the DMG, IIRC. You can also spend 1,000 gp to get a +10 skill shard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#shards) and 9,000 gp for a synaptic mask (Hyperconscious) for another +10. The DC is 30, so you just need to roll a 10 or better, and that doesn't include things like Cha and miscellaneous bonuses.

[Ajustusdaniel]

Bah. Evil is just as valid an alignment as Good or Neutral.

Just as valid, but not just as Good. :smallwink:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Just as valid, but not just as Good. :smallwink:Honestly, Good is just as evil as Evil in a lot of ways. After all, forcing something to become Good is literally forcing it to sacrifice itself for the betterment of others.

You know what else that's called? Slavery.

[Ajustusdaniel]

Honestly, Good is just as evil as Evil in a lot of ways. After all, forcing something to become Good is literally forcing it to sacrifice itself for the betterment of others.

You know what else that's called? Slavery.

Nonsense. If that were the case, Evil would be in favor of Good.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Nonsense. If that were the case, Evil would be in favor of Good.It's good for Evil if Good sacrifices itself for Evil. Just don't let Good know you're Evil and it's all good.

[edit] Actually, Evil SHOULD be in favor of Good, so long as it's not the target of said Good. After all, why would you want to sacrifice YOURSELF to keep the world spinning? It's not like Evil is monolithic, and not all Evil wants the world destroyed. Let the goody-two-shoes(es) save the world. It is, after all, where Evil keeps its stuff.

[Doctor Despair]

Feats to get it as a class skill?

Here's a good resource. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?451088-Alternative-ways-to-get-new-Class-skills)


Academy Graduate - Savage Tide Player's Guide
Aereni Focus - PGtE p 20
Apprentice (spellcaster) - DMG II
Flexible Mind (Anarchic) - Dragon 326 p 80
Skill knowledge - UA
Wedded to History - Dragon 354 p 54 - with the "Golden Ager" background

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Here's a good resource. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?451088-Alternative-ways-to-get-new-Class-skills)


Academy Graduate - Savage Tide Player's Guide
Aereni Focus - PGtE p 20
Apprentice (spellcaster) - DMG II
Flexible Mind (Anarchic) - Dragon 326 p 80
Skill knowledge - UA
Wedded to History - Dragon 354 p 54 - with the "Golden Ager" background
Able Learner and a level in a UMD-granting class. Factotum gains ALL skills as class skills, and it's great for any Int-based character -- including spellcasters, if you don't mind losing a level or three. But it definitely makes a good skillmonkey out of almost anyone.

[Crake]

That is incorrect. It's listed as a spell component and is produced via spells, unlike literally every actual alchemical item. It has no craft DC, and is not listed as an alchemical item anywhere in the BoED.

[edit] Distilled Joy is Permanent, not Instantaneous. Therefore, ambrosia is magical, and it's suppressed in antimagic. It's also an item. Therefore, it is a magical item. UMD should work on it.

That's the squintiest thing I've read all year.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's the squintiest thing I've read all year.Squint harder, then.

Is it magic? Is it an item? I believe you'll find that "yes" is the answer to both.

[Kalkra]

That's the squintiest thing I've read all year.

The dysfunction lies in the spell, not the interpretation thereof. The alternative is that the target is permanently affected, and therefore can only be the target of one Distilled Joy, ever (unless it's dispelled), but might continue producing ambrosia on its own.
Sure, it should have been Duration: Instantaneous, but it's Duration: Permanent, so you have to either say the spell is permanent, the ambrosia is permanent, or houserule it so that it works the way most people think it does.

Also, with regards to Good and Evil, the whole alignment system in D&D really makes no sense. I mean, sure you can say that the Archdukes of Hell get stronger when people are Evil, and therefore they try to make people do Evil things, but it doesn't explain why people would be Evil when anybody who can cast Plane Shift can tell them exactly where they're going. Nor are the definitions of Good and Evil entirely consistent, sensical, or mutually exclusive, and they're frequently ignored.
Like, I'm pretty sure that have a high enough Bluff and/or Diplomacy modifier to maybe be able to convince an attacking monster to become a farmer, you're morally obligated to try, and killing it would be Evil. If that's true, then you'd probably be morally obligated to try to get your modifier that high, even if it means selling your fancy sword for a skill shard or two. In that regard, all your generic murderhobo PCs are Evil, even if they only kill Evil opponents, as long as their opponents aren't "irredeemably evil", which I guess means that they have Alignment: Always Evil.
That's another thing. There are a huge amount of sentient creatures out there that don't seem to have free will. That all kinds of troubling. Also makes you wonder if you have any moral obligations towards them, and either way it causes huge problems. Like, if you see a dying demon, do you need to try administering medical aid? Can you torture it for Liquid Pain? Can you enslave it and send it to work in the coal mines? Is enslaving it better than letting it roam free? It's a mess.
All of that is ignoring the fact that Good and Evil in D&D are frequently depicted as selfishness and selflessness, which they clearly aren't. As Secret Wars taught us, Magneto is utterly selfless, and also Evil. For that matter, the Heroes for Hire are pretty selfish. I mean, that's the whole thing with the LE hospital Liquid Pain farm. Those people are providing free medical care solely for the purpose of harvesting Liquid Pain, and that's exactly the kind of thing devils would do.

Wow, that ended up much longer than I expected. I usually just kinda write whatever comes to mind, which isn't usually that much, when I'm writing about how some spell functions or whatnot, but there's just a lot to unpack with regards to Good and Evil, I suppose.

[Crake]

Squint harder, then.

Is it magic? Is it an item? I believe you'll find that "yes" is the answer to both.

By your definition, any mundane item with a spell cast on it counts as a magical item, as does any effect created by spells, temporary or otherwise. The DMG has a whole section on what constitutes a "magical item", and the book of exalted deeds also has a section on "magical items". You'll notice that ambrosia isn't listed there, nor does it fit any of what is described in the DMG, but I guess, keep peddling your cheesy ideas, you do you.


The dysfunction lies in the spell, not the interpretation thereof. The alternative is that the target is permanently affected, and therefore can only be the target of one Distilled Joy, ever (unless it's dispelled), but might continue producing ambrosia on its own.
Sure, it should have been Duration: Instantaneous, but it's Duration: Permanent, so you have to either say the spell is permanent, the ambrosia is permanent, or houserule it so that it works the way most people think it does.

My contention is the notion that any permanent magical effect makes something a "magical item". By that notion, applying a permanencied spell to an item makes it a "magical item", or hell, using polymorph any object to turn someone into a rock, makes that rock a "magic item", or the items you create with minor/major creation "magic items". Magic items have a quite specific meaning in the dnd 3.5 rules, they are items imbued with magic through the means of item crafting, and follow distinctly different rules.

If you decide to call ambrosia a magic item, then suddenly you're saying that it's only dispelled for 1d4 rounds should someone cast dispel magic on it, and that the same will need to go for everything else, including the aformentioned PAO rock, and the conjured items from minor/major creation.

The correct description would be to call ambrosia a magical effect, not a magical item, but then you couldn't squint your eyes and justify using UMD on it.

[Kalkra]

By your definition, any mundane item with a spell cast on it counts as a magical item, as does any effect created by spells, temporary or otherwise. The DMG has a whole section on what constitutes a "magical item", and the book of exalted deeds also has a section on "magical items". You'll notice that ambrosia isn't listed there, nor does it fit any of what is described in the DMG, but I guess, keep peddling your cheesy ideas, you do you.



My contention is the notion that any permanent magical effect makes something a "magical item". By that notion, applying a permanencied spell to an item makes it a "magical item", or hell, using polymorph any object to turn someone into a rock, makes that rock a "magic item", or the items you create with minor/major creation "magic items". Magic items have a quite specific meaning in the dnd 3.5 rules, they are items imbued with magic through the means of item crafting, and follow distinctly different rules.

If you decide to call ambrosia a magic item, then suddenly you're saying that it's only dispelled for 1d4 rounds should someone cast dispel magic on it, and that the same will need to go for everything else, including the aformentioned PAO rock, and the conjured items from minor/major creation.

The correct description would be to call ambrosia a magical effect, not a magical item, but then you couldn't squint your eyes and justify using UMD on it.

Ah, I'd misunderstood. Admittedly, saying it was squinty wasn't the most specific. Yeah, I'd be okay with it being a permanent magic effect.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

"Magic item" and "magic effect" aren't mutually exclusive.

For instance, a weapon created by minor creation that is affected by greater magic weapon is considered a magic item despite being the result of two magic effects. The Craft Contingent Spell feat produces magical items through magic effects. A scroll with the magic mouth or explosive runes spells cast on it is a magic item for the duration of its existence.

[Obak]

The DM have accepted the use of UMD to use the Ambrosia.
Not fan of the alignment system, but it's not my call in this case.

Dm also said that using Ambrosia might have side effects, but really, how bad could they be?

[Ajustusdaniel]

The DM have accepted the use of UMD to use the Ambrosia.
Not fan of the alignment system, but it's not my call in this case.

Dm also said that using Ambrosia might have side effects, but really, how bad could they be?

Immortal semi-deific arcane tumors?

[GrayDeath]

Depending on the Gods available, you might turn pinkish-gold, and smell of Fruits?

[Telonius]

The DM have accepted the use of UMD to use the Ambrosia.
Not fan of the alignment system, but it's not my call in this case.

Dm also said that using Ambrosia might have side effects, but really, how bad could they be?

...



but really, how bad could they be?


So, ah, how attached are you to that character?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The DM have accepted the use of UMD to use the Ambrosia.
Not fan of the alignment system, but it's not my call in this case.

Dm also said that using Ambrosia might have side effects, but really, how bad could they be?An evil creature using a magic item fueled by super-Good happiness and joy?

[Invoke Murphy] Obviously, nothing could possibly go wrong! [/Invoke Murphy]

[Efrate]

You are 20th level. Nothing a wish or 3 cannot cure.

[Obak]

I was mainly going to use the Ambrosia to fuel the xp cost of my demi plane (My char is TN), might end up turning the plane good aligned. But since we're not going to use it as a Doom Fort we might just get an influx of apple cheeked chubby kids running around in the villages.

[Obak]

Immortal semi-deific arcane tumors?
Excellent time to dip into the cancer mage prc then!

[Crake]

"Magic item" and "magic effect" aren't mutually exclusive.

For instance, a weapon created by minor creation that is affected by greater magic weapon is considered a magic item despite being the result of two magic effects. The Craft Contingent Spell feat produces magical items through magic effects. A scroll with the magic mouth or explosive runes spells cast on it is a magic item for the duration of its existence.

So you're saying that any minor creation enchanted with greater magic weapon cannot be dispelled except by a targetted dispel, and if it was, then it would only disappear for 1d4 rounds?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So you're saying that any minor creation enchanted with greater magic weapon cannot be dispelled except by a targetted dispel, and if it was, then it would only disappear for 1d4 rounds?Did I say the effect was only considered a magic item? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't.

[Darg]

It's good for Evil if Good sacrifices itself for Evil. Just don't let Good know you're Evil and it's all good.

[edit] Actually, Evil SHOULD be in favor of Good, so long as it's not the target of said Good. After all, why would you want to sacrifice YOURSELF to keep the world spinning? It's not like Evil is monolithic, and not all Evil wants the world destroyed. Let the goody-two-shoes(es) save the world. It is, after all, where Evil keeps its stuff.

We call the self sacrificial lamb a hero and we also reel in the not so magnanimous with the fictional currency we call "glory." They get to feel good until they are no longer useful and society spits them back out. The people in power call them "practically free labor" with the steal they make by subsidizing it all with society to reap most of the benefits.

[newguydude1]

Ambrosia is an alchemical item, not a magic item, so you can't fool it with UMD.

Edit: Not even an alchemical item, it's just an optional material component. Either way, it's not UMDable.

its an alchemical item. theres a craft alchemy dc for it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

its an alchemical item. theres a craft alchemy dc for it.What's the source for that? The DC isn't anywhere in the BoED, nor is it ever referred to as an alchemical item there.

[newguydude1]

What's the source for that? The DC isn't anywhere in the BoED, nor is it ever referred to as an alchemical item there.

i was thinking of liquid pain. my bad.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

i was thinking of liquid pain. my bad.'sokay. I was just wondering if I'd missed something.