Wizard or Sorcerer

[ChaosStar]

I need to determine weather I want Wizard or Sorcerer levels for my Arcane Hierophant. Winter Warden ACF means I need to take 4 levels of Druid to qualify due to it getting Trackless Step a level later. Sorcerer synergizes with the Saint Template's charisma bonus, but Wizard gets me in a level earlier. Neither would get me double 9ths though. Sorcerer would get me 16th Druid and 16th Sorcerer casting. Wizard would get me 17th Druid and 16th Wizard casting. Then again that depends on if I take 3 levels of Mystic Theurge, and I have been thinking of taking 1 level of Beastmaster due to the +4 Effective Druid Levels to Animal Companion.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Sorcerer's slower spell progression is already annoying single classed, but it's absolutely crippling if you're going for a theurge build imo.
You shouldn't just look at the build at level 20.
Most of your time playing it will be spent at lower levels after all, and just the normal-for-theurges delay of being 3 levels behind hurts a lot.
Getting your already late spells another level later will make it very difficult to be effective.

Same applies to Beastmaster - you're building a character that's very focused on being a caster and already diluted by being a theurge.
A slighly stronger animal companion is NOT worth losing more caster progression.
Or any really, Beastmaster isn't worth it on a straight druid either (though they can take the hit at least) even before you consider the feat tax of Skill Focus.

[Anthrowhale]

Druid 2/Wizard 1/Druid 2/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 3 might work well. You end up with Druid 19 casting and Wizard 16. You'll need Southern Magician or Alternative Source Spell for early qualification to Mystic Theurge.

Wizard might work a little better than Sorcerer due to better feat reuse across two prepared casters and avoiding the lost spell advancement.

[H_H_F_F]

Druid 2/Wizard 1/Druid 2/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 3 might work well. You end up with Druid 19 casting and Wizard 16. You'll need Southern Magician or Alternative Source Spell for early qualification to Mystic Theurge.

Wizard might work a little better than Sorcerer due to better feat reuse across two prepared casters and avoiding the lost spell advancement.

How would you qualify for MT with only one level of wizard?

[AnimeTheCat]

I need to determine weather I want Wizard or Sorcerer levels for my Arcane Hierophant. Winter Warden ACF means I need to take 4 levels of Druid to qualify due to it getting Trackless Step a level later. Sorcerer synergizes with the Saint Template's charisma bonus, but Wizard gets me in a level earlier. Neither would get me double 9ths though. Sorcerer would get me 16th Druid and 16th Sorcerer casting. Wizard would get me 17th Druid and 16th Wizard casting. Then again that depends on if I take 3 levels of Mystic Theurge, and I have been thinking of taking 1 level of Beastmaster due to the +4 Effective Druid Levels to Animal Companion.

It really depends on what you want out of the Arcane casting side of the equation. Judging by the fact that you're building a theurge and you're not using any sort of early entry tricks as far as I can see, your table is fine with what the Playground considers to be "sub-optimal" choices, so what you really need to be asking is what do you want your arcane side to do.

With sorcerer, you can pick up some of the bloodline feats and give yourself some interesting augmentation with your spellcasting. For example, the Draconic bloodline with the Draconic Claw feat might be really cool to use while wildshaped into large or larger creatures, as it lets you make a swift action claw attack after you cast an arcane spell. Sorcerer also could have value added from the Metamagic Specialist ACF in PHBII to make use of some Metamagic on the fly. Limitations are the normal ones; lack of spell diversity (this is less bad on a Theurge, but still not "great"), low HD (can be "fixed" with Stalwart or Battle Sorcerer, but I don't think that's necessary), low Skill Points on a non-int chassis, etc.

With Wizard, you get all the good arcane stuff. You could pick up specialist or focused specialist in a school that you can otherwise completely cover with your Druid half, to me Evocation comes to mind as an easy one to drop if you're doing a Druid Theurge. Alternatively, you could simply just use the Wizard side to bulk up on scrolls of highly situational spells. Typical Wizardry stuff. Limitations are the normal Wizard limitations; low HD (no real way to fix this one, but again I don't feel it's necessary), low skill points (but you do have a reason to have high int), way too many options and no way to take all of them (not really a problem, but can be frustrating).

It's all up to what you want out of your arcane spellcasting that will determine what class you pick.

EDIT:

How would you qualify for MT with only one level of wizard?

The feat Precocious Spellcaster from Complete Arcane technically allows you to cast a second level spell at level 1. You could take the feat with any arcane spellcasting class, it doesn't have to be wizard. It's just some early entry cheese that exists by technicality. I feel like it would have been better to have MT require CL 3 in an arcane and CL 3 in a divine spellcasting class, but then you would just have different early entry cheese.

[Anthrowhale]

How would you qualify for MT with only one level of wizard?

Southern Magician or Alternate Source Spell.

[Ruethgar]

How would you qualify for MT with only one level of wizard?

Test based prerequisites also works.

I personally prefer sorcerer as a Dragonspawn DWK for the juicy potential +10 sorcerer levels to make up for the slower progression. Even without that, I prefer sorcerers for the ‘can learn any spell they are familiar with’ thing, though in this case that would be a bit moot since I normally take from the druid list.

[ChaosStar]

Judging by the fact that you're building a theurge and you're not using any sort of early entry tricks as far as I can see, your table is fine with what the Playground considers to be "sub-optimal" choices, so what you really need to be asking is what do you want your arcane side to do.

It's more the fact that my DM wouldn't take kindly to early entry cheese, so I don't even try. Also we only get 1 ACF or variant per class.

Edit: Alright swapped some stats around. She now has 12/14/16/16/17/12 as a statline. Once she gets the Saint template it will be 12/14/18/16/19/16, without the Level 4 stat point.

[AnimeTheCat]

It's more the fact that my DM wouldn't take kindly to early entry cheese, so I don't even try. Also we only get 1 ACF or variant per class.

Edit: Alright swapped some stats around. She now has 12/14/16/16/17/12 as a statline. Once she gets the Saint template it will be 12/14/18/16/19/16, without the Level 4 stat point.

Well, and was the operative word there. Theurge classes tend to be suboptimal and theurge classes without early entry cheese even more so, so since you're even considering a theurge, I feel like the Arcane side is less about trying to be the best, and more about a cool or interesting character concept that works.

If you're getting the Saint template, what are your feat choices for your Exalted feats? Lots of people spit on it, but I quite like Vow of Poverty, and since you'll have magic to back yourself up, it's quite fun on a theurge build. I played a Healer/Sorcerer Theurge that was very fun and quite potent. She eventually got the Saint template as well, but I was playing her as a healer prejudice against undead, so I took Vow of Non-Violence and Vow of Peace, plus a whole host of other exalted feats. It was very fun. Anyway, I digress.

My point still stands, your arcane class choice is entirely dependent upon what you want out of it. I think I would personally prefer Sorcerer, but if that doesn't fit your image/character concept then go with Wizard. You could also go crazy and go for something else, like Beguiler or Bard (don't do bard, bad suggestion). You're not necessarily limited to Sorcerer/Wizard. Technically, you could do Warlock too, but I don't think you level your Eldritch Blast with non-eldritch theurge type classes, so that may not be received well. I can never remember the EB rules with theurges.

[ChaosStar]

Well, and was the operative word there. Theurge classes tend to be suboptimal and theurge classes without early entry cheese even more so, so since you're even considering a theurge, I feel like the Arcane side is less about trying to be the best, and more about a cool or interesting character concept that works.

If you're getting the Saint template, what are your feat choices for your Exalted feats? Lots of people spit on it, but I quite like Vow of Poverty, and since you'll have magic to back yourself up, it's quite fun on a theurge build. I played a Healer/Sorcerer Theurge that was very fun and quite potent. She eventually got the Saint template as well, but I was playing her as a healer prejudice against undead, so I took Vow of Non-Violence and Vow of Peace, plus a whole host of other exalted feats. It was very fun. Anyway, I digress.

My point still stands, your arcane class choice is entirely dependent upon what you want out of it. I think I would personally prefer Sorcerer, but if that doesn't fit your image/character concept then go with Wizard. You could also go crazy and go for something else, like Beguiler or Bard (don't do bard, bad suggestion). You're not necessarily limited to Sorcerer/Wizard. Technically, you could do Warlock too, but I don't think you level your Eldritch Blast with non-eldritch theurge type classes, so that may not be received well. I can never remember the EB rules with theurges.

1. My Exalted feats are Exalted Companion, Nymph's Kiss, and Touch of Golden Ice.

2. I could swap them around again and go for Sorcerer, so eh.

3. Warlock is progressed by +1 level of Spellcasting class bonuses, but it doesn't get spells so it doesn't satisfy the requirements for Arcane Hierophant.

4. Bard can be done for Arcane Hierophant, but it's a bit trickier.

[AnimeTheCat]

1. My Exalted feats are Exalted Companion, Nymph's Kiss, and Touch of Golden Ice.

2. I could swap them around again and go for Sorcerer, so eh.

3. Warlock is progressed by +1 level of Spellcasting class bonuses, but it doesn't get spells so it doesn't satisfy the requirements for Arcane Hierophant.

4. Bard can be done for Arcane Hierophant, but it's a bit trickier.

ok, so what do you want the Arcane half of the equation to do? is it just to cast arcane spells? What's the end goal?

[ChaosStar]

ok, so what do you want the Arcane half of the equation to do? is it just to cast arcane spells? What's the end goal?

Utility and more Cold Spells, basically.

[AnimeTheCat]

If you want utility, Wizard is your class. They get the bigger tool belt.

[liquidformat]

1. My Exalted feats are Exalted Companion, Nymph's Kiss, and Touch of Golden Ice.

2. I could swap them around again and go for Sorcerer, so eh.

3. Warlock is progressed by +1 level of Spellcasting class bonuses, but it doesn't get spells so it doesn't satisfy the requirements for Arcane Hierophant.

4. Bard can be done for Arcane Hierophant, but it's a bit trickier.

Bard is actually the easiest and probably best way into Arcane Hierophant as long as dragon mag content is allowed. Dragon #311 has Green Whisperer which is a druid/bard Theurge prc that can easily be entered with druid 4/bard 1. Heck you can actually enter with Druid 5 with greensinger initiate and and it will give you bard casting so druid 5/green whisperer 4/Arcane Hierophant 10/green whisperer 1 gets you druid casting 20, bard 15.

Or you could go Druid 4/bard 1/green singer 3/Arcane Hierophant 3/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant 7/green whisperer 1 which would get you to effective druid level of 18 and bard level 16 (SC 9) which does give you dual 9s without any tricks.