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View Full Version : Sage is OP (Spheres in Review)



SangoProduction
2020-11-20, 02:47 PM
Well, It's been a long held belief of mine that Sage is stupidly overpowered (by spheres standard, not vancian), as an attempt to become a monk that is more than a monk. But I never codified it. So let's do that.

Edit: OK, all my suspicions have been cleared. It is, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the E-peen of spheres classes. Although there are options for building it intentionally poorly within the class itself.


Ranking system:
(S) Superb: You always want this. It's awesome.
(G) Good: You would certainly not complain about having this, especially in the right builds / situations.
(B) Bad: While perhaps better than nothing, you are giving up something for it, so probably shouldn't without a good reason.
(N) No.
(C) Cheese: A talent so broken that it will be instantly banned if you use it as you could.
(I) Impossible: Can't be rated because it is just not defined enough to give a meaningful rating - it depends too much on DM ruling, or personal use. I'll just place it where I guess the average result would put it.
<Angle brackets> around a rating indicates situational usefulness, and how good it is in that favorable situation.


Base Attack Bonus (B): Caster Progression. You'd think that'd be a problem for a martial type, but it largely isn't. Plus your primary damage is touch attack. And if you're going hard into natural attacks, Enhancer grants enough Strength to negate the lost BAB. And even then you could make your natural attacks target touch.
Saves (S): Best it can be.
Proficiencies (B): Only Proficient in simple weapons, and no armor. But, unlike a monk, who would get an N, this also gains a martial tradition of choice.

AC Bonus (G-S): Adds Wisdom to AC, like a monk. Unlike a monk, there's also other good incentives to have good Wisdom...like spell casting and SoM talents...and most esoteries can get Mental Escalation for a free +10 Wisdom score.
Chi Gong (S): The primary way Sages scale their damage. With each attack, they deal the equivalent of a free destructive blast. It can be used stand-alone as a touch attack that can be used in place of other attacks, or to add the damage to natural weapons. And it can heal up to half HP, for no cost.

Combat Training (B): "Only" gains 1/2 a combat talent per level...from this one feature.
Style Talent (G-S): Gains 1/2 level + 1 combat or magic talent, and counts as a full caster for magic. You arguably don't get the free +2 magic talents for just having casting, since you don't have the casting ability...despite being able to cast. So I have to dock it down to a G. Strike that, It's the entire casting deal, including the +2 magic talents. Casting as full caster is always incredible.
Ki Pool (G): Basically spell pool, but with some minor abilities added in.

Esoteric Training (S): Discussed in more detail later, but just let it be said that this is the defining feature of the class, and they get it at level 1, and it's actually really good and scales.
Esotery (<S>): Some are OK, others are good, and then there's Mental Escalation. Will discuss specifics in a bit.

Meditation (G): Investigator Inspiration, but exchanges pool size for recharge rate, and can apply to more things, and can use multiple dice on one check. So...better than Investigator Inspiration, and people talk so much about how that's so good. I don't really buy it.

Skill Focus (B-G): I mean...it's there. You wouldn't complain about getting it.

Signature Technique (G): Largely just doing more of the same, although they are actually quite neat, and I like them.


It is either busted, or it freaking sucks. There is no middle ground.
Infuser (S+): Gains IUS bonus feat, and can replace unarmed strikes and entitlements to combat maneuvers (on his turn) with reflex saves to grapple, trip, or disarm. Minimizes/negates size bonuses vs these, and can force a roll with disadvantage for a spell point. And whenever he could use a Combat Maneuver, he can instead force a reflex save to achieve the effect instead. AND this baby gets bonus combat talents. What the hell?
-Sure, there is no real way to increase this DC, unlike you can with CM, but... average and median reflex saves scale at roughly 1/2 CR. This save scales at 1/2 CL + ability modifier (which also increases by 1/2 CL, with Mental Escalation, before items). Compared to CMD, which increases by 2 per CR increase. And because you don't have any other feats you even can take to increase it, you can instead spend those resources elsewhere.
-Granted: This is saying more about how horribly trounced martials are by CM rules, compared to magic users. This ONLY looks absurd by the comparison to martial combat maneuvers. Grease making people fall prone was never considered the primary reason why it's busted. It was the entire package Grease came with. But that's not the point. Martials aren't allowed to have nice things! This is busted!

Ki Blaster (C+): Now, you can effectively use Destruction sphere. Except... Where a destruction sphere user might use 1 spell point per full powered blast, you get to use one spell point, and fully power your blast for 3 rounds by level 10. And he can use it anytime he would otherwise be able to make a ranged attack. And he gets bonus blast type talents which can augment this already busted ability. DMs may actually ban this because it's big numbers, and DMs fear big numbers. It's like their natural predators. Which is why it's not rated even higher.

Enhancer (S): Up to +10 to a stat (or spread between stats) by level 9, essentially permanently. Pretty hecking good. Also grants bonus Enhance talents, and lets you cast them as swift actions, and not need to pick up the base sphere...which...interacts oddly with casting traditions, but ignore that. Only works on items until you get Natural Enhancement talent.



Manipulator (B): Will save or treat damage dealt by Chi Gong as continuous damage. Woo... And as an immediate action, can establish a manabond with the target for a spell point... Woo... There aren't a bunch of good manabonds anyway...or many manabonds, period. But at least you get some free talents. So overall, it's weak and narrow in its application, but gets a comparative bump because it's not Chakra Disruptor.

Chakra Distruptor (N-B): Although the penalty is pretty reliable, thanks to how many time you can freely attempt it, the effect is small unless you spend points on it, at which point it's not reliable. And if you have Infuser, this is actually irrelevant. Not even a single bonus talent. The free CM attempt (which can be swapped with a Reflex, if you have Infuser) is like a consolation prize.


Now for the Esoteries.

Ki Weapon (<C>): Ki Blasters suddenly can apply weapon enhancements to their destructive blasts. Sure. Sure thing. You really bloody needed that, didn't you? Non-blasters can still benefit from using a greatsword as opposed some piddly fisticuffs. But at least it's not stupid.

Phantom Strike (G): All attacks for a round resolve as touch attacks. I told you the BAB didn't really matter.

Flight (B-G): Meh. Comes on relatively late, and is beaten out by simply shapeshifting and having the Elemental Form (Dedicated) Air Elemental's fly speed. At least until level 10 where it lasts an hour per level, even though it's still much, much slower.
Ki Power (B): In comparison to what you could get with real esoteries, monk ki powers, are probably not what you are looking for.



Combat Form (C+++): Hey, you know how Mental Escalation can grant +5 to your save by level 9? Well, this can do it by level 2. That's 10 CR worth of scaling in 2 levels. What in the literal hell. Who thought this was a good idea?
Mental Escalation (S++): +10 to a casting stat is absurd. Even without the caster stuff, that's +5 AC, and bonuses to saves and save DCs of class abilities.
Rubber Ki (S): Bonus reach, and free repositions of enemies.
Soul Stitching (S): 3x Level points of healing is equivalent to 3 talents in the life sphere, discounting the initial 1d6 it has. But you simultaneously restore ability damage, and explicitly grant Regeneration-like healing.

Attune with Light (G-S): Two bonus talents, and Encompassing Light is basically the "Imma Smash Yer Face In" talent of the light sphere. Grants bonus reach and damage. Both great things for an Infuser.
Revivifying Ki Blast (<G-S>): If you have a remotely lethal game, this can basically give you a "0 to full" revive. Probably won't save you a second time. But it could theoretically infinitely cycle, so long as you kept getting lucky on that heal, and they never move your body.

Maneuver Master (G): Really, it is overkill between Combat Form and Mental Escalation, but gosh golly, you just want to guarantee no natural 20s are rolled.
Elemental Aura (G): Light damage, but it's just tacked on, and gives enemies incentives to not murder you. Relatively cheap, and long-lasting at that.
Ki Clone (G): A bonus fighting buddy, that instantly dies on first hit. But he soaked that hit with your stats. And he probably had reach and stuff to make that hit really costly.
Restore Life (G): Raise Dead as a feat-equivalent. That's better than most feats.

Ponderous Touch (B-G): Hey, that thing you're doing all the time, add some more penalties to your enemies when you do it. You have better choices, but still.
Ki Wall (B-G): Immediate action and spell point for decent bump to defenses against a particular effect. Only ever need to spend when it's just enough to push you over the edge to safety.
Attune With Darkness (B-G): Two bonus talents, but neither particularly good, and you don't really want to be using Dark sphere if you can't make your allies immune, which requires more investment. But it is two bonus talents.

Ki Trance (B): Not useless, but the bonuses are small, and it costs a spell point to invoke.

Mental Escalation (S++): +10 to a casting stat is absurd. Even without the caster stuff, that's +5 AC, and bonuses to saves and save DCs of class abilities.
Stunning Fist (S): "Wait, isn't this the monk deal that no one uses?" Well, yes. But you can attempt it on touch attacks, and stunned is really, really strong. And you have Mental Escalation right above.

Healing Factor (<G-S>): Regeneration 1 for minute / CL is essentially life sphere revitalization, and only on self. But it also increases in potency without further expenditure of feat-equivalents and if your DM's a ****, Regeneration explicitly heals basically any wound. Even those wounds. Yes, Jerry, stop asking.
Enhance Armaments (G-S): Two bonus talents, including Natural Enhancement. You could already enhance carried weapons as a swift action, but they just want to be really sure you know.

Combat Form (G): Gains 1/2 CL DR, unarmed damage of monk of his level, and treats self as full BAB for the purposes of saves reliant on BAB. Again, having low BAB made irrelevant.
Hardened Skin (G): +1/2 CL as armor. Cool.

Ki Trance (B): Not useless, but the bonuses are small, and it costs a spell point to invoke.

Maneuver Master (N-B): Better than Hardened Combatant for CMD. Still irrelevant for CMB if you take Infuser, which you'd do if you wanted a CM-based character.

Hardened Combatant (N): Gain an absolutely miniscule bonus to CMB and CMD. Infuser makes the CMB part completely irrelevant as well. But hey. You might not have that immediately But this is still really not good.

Restorative Blast (S+): You can now heal your entire party with one attack, and kill the enemy in another, all on the same turn. Yeah. This is good.

Ki Bomb (G-S): Adds a sizable burst to an attack you make for a spell point. And the area improves as you level up. And it's not overwriting your chance to dish out single target damage either.

Severing Ki Disc (G): Vorpal ki blasts. Neat. And you can go Improved Critical for 15-20 crit chance for 3x damage. So an additional 25% chance for 200% increased damage, and +100% on the normal 20. An average of +55% damage. Considering the frack tons of damage you already do... Yeah. Overkill. And expensive at 1 spell point each time. But you can definitely afford it.

Meteor Shower (B-G): Grants Barrage as a bonus talent (probably a core sphere). Ki Bomb probably serves its AoE purposes much better though. Niche use for wide open spaces.

Ki Wall (B): Immediate action and spell point for decent bump to defenses against a particular effect. Only ever need to spend when it's just enough to push you over the edge to safety. But you generally don't need it as much as other sages would

Elemental Aura (N-B): The boost to damage is really nothing compared to what you do really efficiently already. You also don't need the incentive to not punch you in the face, as you do much more than that each time you breathe. Oh, you're also not generally in the thick of things either.
Revivifying Ki Blast (N-B): Restorative Blast does more proactive and efficient healing unless you get one shot.

Scatter Blast (N): Hey! Look! For the same cost as Ki Bomb, you instead get an inferior blast shape
Piercing Beam (N): Targets in a short line. For the same cost as Ki Bomb, you target in a line rather than a burst around the target. And it's immediately a lesser diameter as soon as you get to level 5. This is garbo.


Soul Stitching (S): 3x Level points of healing is equivalent to 3 talents in the life sphere, discounting the initial 1d6 it has. But you simultaneously restore ability damage, and explicitly grant Regeneration-like healing.
Stunning Fist (G-S): "Wait, isn't this the monk deal that no one uses?" Well, yes. But you can attempt it on touch attacks, and stunned is really, really strong. And you can easily escalate your wisdom modifier into a powerful save.

Absorb Magic (G): Can attempt to counterspell a damaged target for a spell point. And for an additional spell point, use the effect for himself...only for Wis mod rounds...but still.
Restore Life (G): Raise Dead as a feat-equivalent. That's better than most feats.

Shattering Touch (<B-G>): If you consistently face constructs, this might be worth your time. Why does it only apply to unattended objects and surfaces though? Like, Sunder isn't good. You didn't have to basically call it out as not being compatible.

Ponderous Touch (B): Got indirectly nerfed by the new Slow not staggering. Used to be incredibly OP. Now you've got better options.

Slow Reflexes (N-B): Deal damage, spend a spell point, and then have them fail a save. After all that, you give them a small penalty to reflex saves and attack rolls (for AoOs only...) for 1 round.

Hinder Movement (N-): Damage enemy, spend a spell point, and then have them fail a fort save. At the end of that, you slightly reduce enemy speed for 1 round. 1 round. I repeat. 1 freaking round. They don't even need to use an action to restore their movement. They just stand and punch you and then walk away.
Maneuver Master (N-): Completely irrelevant, unless you're an infuser, because Infusers actually do this well.
Disrupt Acumen (I): Looks like garbage, unless you're specifically facing someone who likes counterspell. Maybe I am just human garbage, and unable to comprehend the majesty of this. But I think it sucks.


Already rated each of these. There are no special synergies with any of these, let alone with the base ability.



Heart Stopper: Save or Die.
Desiccate Essence: Full round action to touch attack, and force a will save. If they fail the will save, they lose all spell points, and martial focus, and suffer negative levels. This is an absolute devastator of any mage. But Heart Stopper is save or die. Not just save or lose spells.

Devastation wave: D10s instead of D6s. An average of 5.5 vs 3.5 damage per die. So yeah, around 1.5 times average damage. Probably supreme overkill.
Spider's Web: Massive Area Control.

Physical Perfection: So you can save on those items that increases inherent bonuses. If you can be sure to ever make it to level 20. More ki points is cool, and DR...is kinda low by this level. Free benefits from aging though


Now for the Archetypes

Physical Focus (G): Forces Enhancer. You probably wanted that anyway if you took this.
Advanced Form Manipulation (B-G): Giving up an esotery for a talent plus move action cast and maintenance. Have you not seen an Enhancer Esotery?
Keen Senses (G): Alertness replacing a skill focus, which can stack with a skill focus later. Neat.

Implacable Resilience (B): Really inefficient healing, and replaces an esotery. It at least prevents you from getting one shot. Although Revivifying Ki would do that better and more efficiently, if less reliably.
Final Form (G): Physical Perfection may be the weakest of the Signature Techniques, but also tacking on anti-magic immunity makes it rather good.


Combat-Hardened (N-B): Lose AC bonus for light armor and buckler proficiency. Mental Escalation, even if you start with only +0 Wisdom is more effective AC boost than light armor and buckler. Toughness is much derided, and eventually getting more toughness isn't too great.

Stalwart (G): Negate a partial fort or will save. Would not be a bad esotery. But man, have you seen those esoteries?


Devout Vows (C): Oaths are generally cheesy power bumps. You get more access to better power bumps.

Ki Magic (G): Just adds another couple abilities to the ki pool.

Chi Gong Wand Strike (G): Neat. Style talents aren't bad things to lose in exchange.

Retaliatory Wand Magic (G): Trade the second esotery you get for the ability to tell mages to knock it off, and gain counterspell feat for free. Neat.

Dr_Dinosaur
2020-11-21, 03:41 PM
One thing that should be noted is that Ki Blaster has the unique ability to Barrage with destructive blasts, so meteor shower is probably a better pick than it looks

SangoProduction
2020-11-21, 04:34 PM
One thing that should be noted is that Ki Blaster has the unique ability to Barrage with destructive blasts, so meteor shower is probably a better pick than it looks

Yeah, in fact, any method of getting more attacks means more ki blasts, ridiculously enough. Dual Wield Light Crossbows (if you even need to to dual wield Ki Blast), and replace your attacks with ki blasts. You can easily be dishing out 60d6+ of damage touch attacks a round by level 10 if you tried.

However, 1 bonus talent added to a somewhat mediocre (and not really well-explained) effect. Eh. It's nice.

Thunder999
2020-11-21, 06:22 PM
I finally understand why people say sage is OP.

StSword
2020-11-21, 07:19 PM
While I know that one of the benefits of SoP is that casters do have options that they can call on all day every day, I would think Ki Leech would be a decent choice for a Sage, since it would allow one to replenish their ki pool.

At least, for any Sage that focuses more on SoP than SoM options.

Or is that just too niche, considering Sages are a champion class, so they have SoM options and all day SoP options?

SangoProduction
2020-11-21, 07:24 PM
While I know that one of the benefits of SoP is that casters do have options that they can call on all day every day, I would think Ki Leech would be a decent choice for a Sage, since it would allow one to replenish their ki pool.

At least, for any Sage that focuses more on SoP than SoM options.

Or is that just too niche, considering Sages are a champion class, so they have SoM options and all day SoP options?

Oh my. That's a nice find. Especially if you also took some healing / otherwise supportive magic talents, and just tax the vancian caster put that on you. And just have your martials deal at least 1 hit of nonlethal damage per target, so that you can guarantee the bonus ki refresh.

TheTeaMustFlow
2020-11-22, 07:00 AM
Style Talent (G): Gains 1/2 level + 1 combat or magic talent, and counts as a full caster for magic. You arguably don't get the free +2 magic talents for just having casting, since you don't have the casting ability...despite being able to cast. So I have to dock it down to a G.

Incorrect as per the errata for ki pool:
(http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/sage#toc11)

Errata: This counts as both the casting and spell pool class features; a sage who gains a spell pool from another source calculates their total from both sources into a single pool as normal for a multiclass sphere caster. Sages gain two bonus talents if this is their first level in a casting class and qualify for a unified tradition, applying any appropriate casting limitations to their ki powers (so a sage with a casting tradition that includes the Verbal Casting drawback would apply that limitation to all of their ki powers, not just those that use magic talents).

SangoProduction
2020-11-22, 09:11 AM
Incorrect as per the errata for ki pool:
(http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/sage#toc11)

OK. I was quite certain that was the case, as I've seen it before. I simply had no idea where I saw it, nor did I find evidence for my suspicion within the text on the class.

I'll edit the deal right away.

Thealtruistorc
2020-11-22, 02:52 PM
Speaking as somebody who wrote two of the archetypes here, I want to say thank you for doing what you do here. Compilations like this help a lot in making sense of the classes' problems and addressing how we can fix them in future iterations.

SangoProduction
2020-11-22, 03:18 PM
Speaking as somebody who wrote two of the archetypes here, I want to say thank you for doing what you do here. Compilations like this help a lot in making sense of the classes' problems and addressing how we can fix them in future iterations.

Awesome. Glad you enjoyed it.