A question for you as a dm

[Gamerawsome101]

Would you as a dm allow me to change magical secrets with other magical secrets? Because if I am a lore bard and hit 6th level I get magic secrets but I have to wait until level 10 to get 4th level spells with magic secrets according to dnd beyond and same thin with 7th and level 10
If I wanted to swap a 3rd for 4th at level 7 would you let me?

[Torgairon]

questions like these are always evaluated on a case-by-case basis, usually coming down to why you would want the rule exception. if it's to pick a cool, flavorful 4th level spell from another spell list that suits your character and the party, probably yes! if it's obviously to pick the #1 pick from "TOP 10 4TH LEVEL SPELLS FOR THE BEST 5E CHARS!", slightly less inclined.

in my experience 4th level spells, bar a few standouts, don't rock the boat as much as many of the iconic 3rd level spells do anyway.

[Keravath]

In my game, in general, probably not.

The bard class gets magical secrets as a "special" feature at levels 10, 14, 18 and if a lore bard at level 6. It enhances their total spells known and at the level they receive them they can both be of the highest level they have spell slots for. Allowing a bard to swap out magical secrets for other magical secrets on each level up wouldn't be game breaking but it would be a bump in power since they could always pick several spells from ANY class at the highest level they could currently cast (Keep in mind that by level 14 a bard has 6 magical secrets spells they could swap out under such a system).

With this change, a bard could pick up Wish at level 17 instead of 18 and could get it without ever needing to get the level 18 magical secrets.

However, with that said, if a situation came up in the game where the bard character had some sort of in game experience that might drive the character to discovering the secrets of a level 4 spell for specific in game reasons ... maybe they had a bad encounter with demons who killed someone important to them and as a result the bard really wanted to find the secret of the Banishment spell to replace one of their other secrets then I would likely allow it as a one time event.

So, my answer as a DM would be generally no but with possible exceptions for storyline/plot/character reasons.

[PhantomSoul]

In my games, no -- I could see having in-game events for special cases, but I'd stick with RAW for the base rules for this for sure. It's already an exceptionally powerful feature, and it's not just the ability to change your 3rd level for a 4th... letting you change them means you could later get an extra 5th or 6th or anything.

I would be more favourable to someone suggesting they wait to take any Magical Secrets spell until the level of their target spell, but that's a lot more potent and I think I'd just skip agreeing to that. If it's really needed for their character concept, there's usually better ways (namely having in-game growth), and I already wish Magical Secrets were more narratively interesting in play than a spell-steal.

You can, of course, replace your Magical Secrets spell with a Bard spell of a higher level, though.

[OldTrees1]

At 6th level you got Magical Secrets with 2 spells capped at 3rd level spells. I might allow you to retrain your 2 spells from 6th level Magical Secrets spells to 2 other spells (still capped at 3rd level spells). However I would not allow you to upgrade them to 4th+ level spells.

[MaxWilson]

Would you as a dm allow me to change magical secrets with other magical secrets? Because if I am a lore bard and hit 6th level I get magic secrets but I have to wait until level 10 to get 4th level spells with magic secrets according to dnd beyond and same thin with 7th and level 10
If I wanted to swap a 3rd for 4th at level 7 would you let me?

Only if you were a new player and I felt sorry for you for not understanding the rules when you first chose your secret. Then I'd help you retcon your mistake. In general, no.

Edit: that means you wouldn't be able to pick a 4th level spell as your level 6 magical secret.

[Pex]

Would you as a dm allow me to change magical secrets with other magical secrets? Because if I am a lore bard and hit 6th level I get magic secrets but I have to wait until level 10 to get 4th level spells with magic secrets according to dnd beyond and same thin with 7th and level 10
If I wanted to swap a 3rd for 4th at level 7 would you let me?

No because that's the inherent feature of the ability. Lore Bard gets access to other class spells earlier than other bards. It's a privelege of that subclass, but you get access to up to 3rd level spells. You get the extra spells but have to settle for normal bard spells if you want to switch them. You still have more spells. You just have to be patient for 10th level to get the 4th level spells you want when all bards can do it.


questions like these are always evaluated on a case-by-case basis, usually coming down to why you would want the rule exception. if it's to pick a cool, flavorful 4th level spell from another spell list that suits your character and the party, probably yes! if it's obviously to pick the #1 pick from "TOP 10 4TH LEVEL SPELLS FOR THE BEST 5E CHARS!", slightly less inclined.

in my experience 4th level spells, bar a few standouts, don't rock the boat as much as many of the iconic 3rd level spells do anyway.

What constitutes the BEST 4th LEVEL SPELLS? A player always wants what's best for him in his mind. Others may disagree on the value of the choice, but for that player it's THE BEST THING EVAR! At 10th level he can have the MOST AWESOME 4th level spells he wants.

It's ok for a DM to say no to a player request, but say no because it doesn't fit the theme of the campaign or it would unbalance the acceptable power level. Don't say no just because the player wants it questioning his motives. That's being adversarial. It does go both ways. I acknowledge the existence of the munchkin player continuously asking for everything and anything. That player needs to learn to play with the rules that are not what he wants them to be. Let's not presume the extremes. Just because a player asks for something doesn't mean he wants to Win D&D even if you decide the answer is no.

[loki_ragnarock]

Only if you were a new player and I felt sorry for you for not understanding the rules when you first chose your secret. Then I'd help you retcon your mistake. In general, no.

Edit: that means you wouldn't be able to pick a 4th level spell as your level 6 magical secret.

95% this.

I'm also typically open to people saying things like, "I've never used this spell. ((Not even once.) or (Once, like five levels ago.)) Can I change it?"

I'll give that a pass maybe once. Not twice.

[Wuzza]

As long as you can talk me around, and it doesn't impact the game negatively, sure.

[MaxWilson]

95% this.

I'm also typically open to people saying things like, "I've never used this spell. ((Not even once.) or (Once, like five levels ago.)) Can I change it?"

Me too, I think I've said yes to all retcon requests along these lines.

[Hellpyre]

I've generally been willing to allow Magical Secrets to be swapped out at level-up, but with the caveat that you can only pick a spell of a level you could have chosen when you acquired the feature. So you could swap a 3rd you got from one list to another 3rd when you hit level 7, but you couldn't take a 4th level spell (since you couldn't have gained that with the feature in the first place).

[Laserlight]

I'd be okay with your swapping an N level spell with another N level spell, but it either needs to be something you've very rarely used or you have to give me an explanation to justify it. If you can't bother to say "Jebediah is a priest of Pelor, and we've been hanging out for a while now, and I've gotten some insight into Fireball", or something at least that plausible, then no.

I wouldn't allow upgrade. Your L3 stays an L3.

[KorvinStarmast]

At 6th level you got Magical Secrets with 2 spells capped at 3rd level spells. I might allow you to retrain your 2 spells from 6th level Magical Secrets spells to 2 other spells (still capped at 3rd level spells). However I would not allow you to upgrade them to 4th+ level spells. That's my stance.

Me too, I think I've said yes to all retcon requests along these lines. Yes, on a case by case basis, particularly if the person thought the spell sounded cool but we were never in a situation where it was needed.


I wouldn't allow upgrade. Your L3 stays an L3. Amen, Deacon.

[Sigreid]

No I would not. As a bard you already have unprecedented flexibility in the game. You don't need more.

[Amdy_vill]

Would you as a dm allow me to change magical secrets with other magical secrets? Because if I am a lore bard and hit 6th level I get magic secrets but I have to wait until level 10 to get 4th level spells with magic secrets according to dnd beyond and same thin with 7th and level 10
If I wanted to swap a 3rd for 4th at level 7 would you let me?

I would say no. if you were swapping a 3rd for a 3rd or a 3rd for a 4th and you had the 4th level one already. but this seems to be just an upgrade. if some games maybe but for the most part no.

[Tangleweed]

If it was because of a regretted choice, yeah. Like you missread the spell or whatnot. But then I would just let you swap, no need to wait for a level or anything. But the secrets you get al level 6 would be capped at lvl 6.

Later, I would not allow swapping magical secrets for other "magical secrets" spell that you can choose from any list. Thats simply not what the feature do. I would let you sap magical secrets out for spells from the bard list as normal though.

[Vegan Squirrel]

If it was because of a regretted choice, yeah. Like you missread the spell or whatnot. But then I would just let you swap, no need to wait for a level or anything. But the secrets you get al level 6 would be capped at lvl 6.

Later, I would not allow swapping magical secrets for other "magical secrets" spell that you can choose from any list. Thats simply not what the feature do. I would let you sap magical secrets out for spells from the bard list as normal though.

Pretty much exactly what I was going to say.

I suppose I could be talked into allowing it if there's a particular spell you really wanted for good character/flavor reasons and it wasn't a particularly powerful spell, but this would still count as your only spell swap for that level (so you'd still be limited to 2 known 4th level spells at level 7). But that would strictly be construed as a one-time DM's boon, not a precedent-setting ruling.

[da newt]

I would allow a PC to chose to save your magical secrets until you could learn 4th level spells if they wanted to. This way there is a cost (waiting) for the benefit (choosing a 4th lvl spell instead of a 3rd).

I would not allow a PC to pick a lower level spell, and then trade it out later for a higher level spell later (especially because that would allow them to do it over and over again).

[TyGuy]

Holy **** what a bunch of stingy people in here.
I would say yes if you know exactly what you want and make a case for why it's thematic/ important for the PC.

I would also consider allowing you to leave the pick open until the next level when you get 4th level spells. I think going a level without one or two magic secret picks is enough of a payment to grab something higher than 3rd level.

[Anymage]

Agreeing with the majority here.

RAW, your secrets are locked in. While you could always swap that spell out for a bard spell of a higher level, you never get to change what spell you added to your list. And you definitely don't get to swap your secret out for a higher level secret.

I'd probably allow you to swap your secret spell out for a different one of the same level if you gave a fair RP justification, because there's always the alternative of retiring your character and replacing him with his nearly identical twin who just happened to pick the different spell instead. I'd make you work for it a bit, though, since you probably got good mileage out of that spell when it was level appropriate. (I'm thinking Fireball here as you gain levels here and it gets a little long in the tooth.)

Allowing a secret to be a higher level spell would be a much bigger ask, because allowing it as a matter of course means that all your secrets would scale as high as you like. That's an awful lot of power and flexibility, when you gain more secrets as you level up precisely to fill with higher level slots.

[MrStabby]

I would allow a PC to chose to save your magical secrets until you could learn 4th level spells if they wanted to. This way there is a cost (waiting) for the benefit (choosing a 4th lvl spell instead of a 3rd).

I would not allow a PC to pick a lower level spell, and then trade it out later for a higher level spell later (especially because that would allow them to do it over and over again).

I think I would go for this.

There might be other reasons... as DM there might be things I missed from session zero. Like if the campaign was largely around fire giants, fire elemental, demons, fire giants and the player picked fireball... so yeah a special case.

Also if the player was trying to create a specific type of character. So I have had a player use a bard to create a Preacher Priest and had they wanted to swap spells for a cleric spell or a domain spell then I wouldnt have had much of an issue.

Also, it might depend on how I was treating other players. If everyone else was getting something then they would be more likely for me to accede to their request.

There are also other options that might be on the table through wands and similar items (again in that type of campaign with mega magic and super loot)

[OldTrees1]

Holy **** what a bunch of stingy people in here.
I would say yes if you know exactly what you want and make a case for why it's thematic/ important for the PC.

I would also consider allowing you to leave the pick open until the next level when you get 4th level spells. I think going a level without one or two magic secret picks is enough of a payment to grab something higher than 3rd level.

Stingy? The common answer seems to be
"Yes, but Lore Bard 6 Magical Secrets remains capped at 3rd level spells."

That does not sounds stingy to me. Allowing a 4th level spell bypasses an intentional limitation. Which is fine, but it is not stingy to keep the intentional limitations.

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

I'd let someone swap for any equal-leveled spell or lower, though not more than once. Though I'd likely make an exception if someone was desperately looking forward to a certain spell higher leveled spell for a theming/roleplaying reason, but I also might just allow them to add that to their regular spell list if it makes enough sense.

[TyGuy]

Stingy? The common answer seems to be
"Yes, but Lore Bard 6 Magical Secrets remains capped at 3rd level spells."

That does not sounds stingy to me. Allowing a 4th level spell bypasses an intentional limitation. Which is fine, but it is not stingy to keep the intentional limitations.
At the time of my comment there were about 13 of the 15 opinions saying no to upgrading 3rd level magic secrets to 4th level. Which is what the OP is after. Most said no to or didn't mention waiting to choose at level 7 as well.

[Pex]

At the time of my comment there were about 13 of the 15 opinions saying no to upgrading 3rd level magic secrets to 4th level. Which is what the OP is after. Most said no to or didn't mention waiting to choose at level 7 as well.

The ask is to break a limitation of the ability, but the DM thinks that limitation is worth keeping. The player is not wrong in the asking, but not all askings must be yes. Normally a player wanting to swap that spell has to choose a bard spell, which can be 4th level at level 7. Changing a Magical Secret spell to a non-bard spell but still capped at 3rd level also breaks the limitation, but that's more palatable to some DMs so a few will give a yes to that. Making it a higher level spell is the deal-breaker. If a DM is willing to say yes to the request, great. Wonderful for them. As of now, though, Court of Opinion from Strangers on the Internet leans toward it being a hard sell. Try asking to swap for a different 3rd level spell or possibly upgrade a non-bard lower level spell choice to a non-bard 3rd level spell.

[OldTrees1]

At the time of my comment there were about 13 of the 15 opinions saying no to upgrading 3rd level magic secrets to 4th level. Which is what the OP is after. Most said no to or didn't mention waiting to choose at level 7 as well.

Thank you for clarifying. I don't think that is "stingy". Saying "Yes, you can retrain but no you can't upgrade" is a flexible retraining position that does not inadvertently remove an intentional limitation. It is a partial fulfillment to what the OP is after, but the OP is asking for 2 things and one of them is a retrain and the other is a strict buff.

However that might just be a difference of opinion.

[TyGuy]

The ask is to break a limitation of the ability...
As of now, though, Court of Opinion from Strangers on the Internet leans toward it being a hard sell.


I don't think that is "stingy"...
However that might just be a difference of opinion.

I get all that guys. I'm saying, in my opinion, the majority is being stingy. As in, I wouldn't play with such inflexible DMs if I had to wait to level 10 for an important 4th lvl spell choice.

1) The average campaign fizzles around level 10. Which is nothing to say about possible PC deaths. So saying no is putting it at very low odds that the 4th lvl spell in question will get much use if any at all.

2) 4th level spells are in the same tier as 3rd level. The big uptick in power happens between 2-3, not 3-4. What 4th level spells are far more powerful than counterspell or fireball, to the point of breaking the game?

I stand by my stance that it's stingy to not allow a level 7 lore bard to grab 4th lvl spell magic secrets either by swapping or by waiting with an "open" pick. I find the latter to be the fairest compromise.

I also find it rich that GitPG is chock full of theory crafters constantly trying to make broken builds through RAW. But whenever there's a strong homebrew or house rule suggested, it's met with the above reaction. No no no, things can't deviate from RAW if it makes them stronger. Now about my vuman, crossbow expert, sharpshooter, hexblade dip...

[Hellpyre]

I also find it rich that GitPG is chock full of theory crafters constantly trying to make broken builds through RAW. But whenever there's a strong homebrew or house rule suggested, it's met with the above reaction. No no no, things can't deviate from RAW if it makes them stronger. Now about my vuman, crossbow expert, sharpshooter, hexblade dip...
You're getting rather heated by the end of this, but it's a good idea to address. A lot of people enjoy the exercise of theorycrafting, without ever expecting or even wanting to play such a build at an actual game. In this particular scenario, a player asked for people who DM to weigh in on a question of what they would allow.

Most of us chimed in somewhere between 'hard no, reserving the right to allow in certain circumstances' to 'partial yes, you can exchange within the normal power limit of the ability'. Those who stated their reasons for staying within those bounds generally stressed that it is about (and I am paraphrasing here) keeping the ability within the power expected by the design. I don't think it's unreasonable to do so.

On a broader note - if you do something to explicitly improve one of the more powerful abilities of one of the more powerful classes, but you don't also do something similarly expanding the capabilities of other players (and do so reasonably contemporaneously), you run the very real risk of causing division and unhappiness among your players by doing what could be viewed as favoritism. That's something that can kill campaigns, and avoiding that possibility is something I would hope any long-term DM would set as a priority.

[OldTrees1]

I get all that guys. I'm saying, in my opinion, the majority is being stingy. As in, I wouldn't play with such inflexible DMs if I had to wait to level 10 for an important 4th lvl spell choice.

Thank you for clarifying. I do not think these other GM rulings were "stingy", you do think they are "stingy". That is a difference of opinion that deserved commentary & clarification, but I agree to disagree about how reasonable & flexible these GMs have been.


I also find it rich that GitPG is chock full of

Chock full of a diverse group of people that it best to not overgeneralize as all doing the same thing and participating in every thread. I think it is best if we leave that non sequitur alone.

[MrStabby]

I get all that guys. I'm saying, in my opinion, the majority is being stingy. As in, I wouldn't play with such inflexible DMs if I had to wait to level 10 for an important 4th lvl spell choice.

1) The average campaign fizzles around level 10. Which is nothing to say about possible PC deaths. So saying no is putting it at very low odds that the 4th lvl spell in question will get much use if any at all.

2) 4th level spells are in the same tier as 3rd level. The big uptick in power happens between 2-3, not 3-4. What 4th level spells are far more powerful than counterspell or fireball, to the point of breaking the game?

I stand by my stance that it's stingy to not allow a level 7 lore bard to grab 4th lvl spell magic secrets either by swapping or by waiting with an "open" pick. I find the latter to be the fairest compromise.

I also find it rich that GitPG is chock full of theory crafters constantly trying to make broken builds through RAW. But whenever there's a strong homebrew or house rule suggested, it's met with the above reaction. No no no, things can't deviate from RAW if it makes them stronger. Now about my vuman, crossbow expert, sharpshooter, hexblade dip...

Find greater steed
Banishment
Shadow of Moil
Conjure woodland beings (under certain rulings)

Of these, I would worry most about find greater steed as it potentially has interactions than other spells when added to the bard list.



As for not wanting to play with these DMs... I guess they would be in absolute agreement that you would be a poor fit for their table. What a happy coincidence that would be.

[Kane0]

I’d let you swap them for other spells of the same levels that were available to you when you got the feature

[Vegan Squirrel]

I get all that guys. I'm saying, in my opinion, the majority is being stingy. As in, I wouldn't play with such inflexible DMs if I had to wait to level 10 for an important 4th lvl spell choice.

1) The average campaign fizzles around level 10. Which is nothing to say about possible PC deaths. So saying no is putting it at very low odds that the 4th lvl spell in question will get much use if any at all.

2) 4th level spells are in the same tier as 3rd level. The big uptick in power happens between 2-3, not 3-4. What 4th level spells are far more powerful than counterspell or fireball, to the point of breaking the game?

I stand by my stance that it's stingy to not allow a level 7 lore bard to grab 4th lvl spell magic secrets either by swapping or by waiting with an "open" pick. I find the latter to be the fairest compromise.

I do find it legitimately surprising that you find these opinions to be so inflexible that you wouldn't play with such a DM. While I can't recall having had a player request something on the order of a higher level spell than their abilities allow them before, in my experience I also can't recall ever turning down a player's request to adjust the rules for character reasons. In fact, I'm more likely to suggest a bend in the rules for a player than they are to ask for one. And as a player, I'd never make a request like this without considering it completely fair for the DM to shoot it down; after all, I'm asking for something beyond what the rules already allow my character to have. And 5th edition really empowers characters pretty strongly even within the rules.

Also, many of us pointed out that context matters, and the reasoning behind the request. I just glanced at a list of 4th level spells, and it's a good level with a lot of good spells. 4th level brings banishment and conjure woodland beings, among others, so there are legitimately powerful and potentially game-altering spells in there (I don't think it would break the game to give out even 5th level spells at 7th level either, but whether the game breaks isn't the only factor guiding my decisions).

If there's a compelling reason for the request, then a discussion is merited, but what 4th level spells are so character-defining that it's so important to break the rules to get them? And why, if they're so important, would you be playing a bard instead of a class with that important spell on its list? If that spell on a bard is so important to you, then maybe we should instead be designing a custom bard subclass that gets that spell as well as other abilities that reflect the same essential character traits. Or maybe your character should embark on a quest to find a magic item that grants the spell; that sounds like an awesome solution to me, which you can even undertake before 7th level.

Still speaking very generically, without knowing the spell, the character, the reasons, or the campaign, my first inclination is still to say no to the straight buff of getting a higher level spell with such a specific class feature. But I'll still listen to the specific reasons first, and all of those quests, items, and customized rules are potentially on the table. Does that still sound inflexible?

[TyGuy]

Find greater steed
Banishment
Shadow of Moil
Conjure woodland beings (under certain rulings)

You're right, find greater steed is the most unfair because the bard would get it well before a paladin. Shadow of moil on a character without extra attack, fine. Banishment at the same level as the cleric, fine. Conjure woodlands brings, not bad under RAW. If you want to let the player pick and you sense powergaming then you can draw the line there instead of putting a hard stop on someone who might just be wanting leomund's secret chest for RP reasons.

As for not wanting to play with these DMs... I guess they would be in absolute agreement that you would be a poor fit for their table. What a happy coincidence that would be.
Agreed :)

[Vegan Squirrel]

Leomund's secret chest, now that you've given an example, is a pretty easy spell to say yes to. It's a flavorful spell that I've never seen a spellcaster select before but opens up fun possibilities for the character. Finding/ordering the 5,000 gp chest will take some doing, but that's to be expected.

[MaxWilson]

I get all that guys. I'm saying, in my opinion, the majority is being stingy. As in, I wouldn't play with such inflexible DMs if I had to wait to level 10 for an important 4th lvl spell choice.

Well, you're certainly free to leave a game. IMO that's why it's important not to take months or years to provide dramatic closure to players--you never know when someone is going to stop playing, for whatever reason, and ideally you want everyone to have experienced real victories (and/or defeats) by that point instead of months of setup (e.g. searching for artifacts with which to kill Strahd) that turns out not to have any payoff because someone left and the campaign fizzled (never actually fought Strahd).

Still, it's better IMO if you let the other players know in advance what your non-negotiable issues like this are. "I absolutely insist that I must be able to upgrade my Magical Secrets to even better secrets or I don't want to play the game" is something they deserve to know. Maybe they won't want to play like that.

[micahaphone]

If you haven't gotten much use out of one of your magical secrets, sure. I'd let you swap it. I once had a wizard player ask me if they could retcon/swap out a spell they had picked at the previous level up, and hadn't gotten any use out of, finding it harder to use than they thought. I was fine with that. But if you take Fireball at 6, use it every day, then want to swap it out at level 9? I'd be against that.