Uses For Favored Foe

[Vorpalchicken]

OK so Favored Foe is kinda bad. Maybe not even worth trading all those extra languages and tracking bonuses. But I can actually see a few uses.

1) It's near the end of a fight and you've lost concentration on hunter's mark (or whatever) and you just want a little damage boost to take that last baddie down more quickly. It doesn't cost a bonus action (nice for a variety of styles including of course dual wielding) or a spell slot.

2) You know as soon as a not so scary fight is done you are going to cast Pass Without Trace or maybe Healing Spirit (if it was perhaps a bit scary.) Since you need to give up concentration any way maybe you don't want to throw away a slot on Hunter's Mark.

3) You want to try out Nature's Veil and you can't spare that bonus action.

4) You want to cast a spell and also do Hunter's Mark's evil little buddy damage on an attack.

Yeah I know it's only on one hit (which is sorta ok before level 5) and while it is a d4 at first, it turns into a d6 once you are in the DnD sweet spot. (I wouldn't count on the d8 though.)

[dreast]

ItÂ’s not a bad ability at all, esp. when the ranger needs to be spell slot conscious. People are used to going nova, however, and it gets generally squeezed out there. Still, given that it is 1/turn damage, IÂ’m genuinely shocked they made it use concentration.

[Dork_Forge]

The best case scenario for it really are on builds that already have a busy bonus action:

-TWF builds can get a drop of damage without losing the first turn attack
-Crossbow experts as above
-Monster Hunters can use their version of HM and trigger this simultaneously pretty much

That said you can't move it around like Hunter's Mark so it's most applicable when you're going against a tougher opponent who won't immediately die and waste your ability.

[dreast]

-TWF builds can get a drop of damage without losing the first turn attack


Ooh, missed this one entirely. Yeah, rangers are so bonus-action overstuffed that it definitely has a niche.

Another: BMÂ’s can use it while using their second attack for their Beast of the X. No disadvantage against HunterÂ’s Mark (once it does at least d6 damage, the same time as you even get extra attack) against a single target there, esp. for melee hunters who must always consider concentration loss.

An ability that helps out melee rangers that archer rangers will almost never use is all plus in my book; IÂ’ve always loved melee rangers. (Evil, meet my sword. Sword, MEET EVIL!)

[stoutstien]

Could save it for critical hits. If I wasn't concentrating on anything else and happened to get lucky a couple of extra dice won't hurt.

[Dork_Forge]

Could save it for critical hits. If I wasn't concentrating on anything else and happened to get lucky a couple of extra dice won't hurt.

Don't you have to mark the creature beforehand though? I didn't interpret the wording as doing any damage when you mark them, but giving you the die on subsequent hits/per turn.

[stoutstien]

Don't you have to mark the creature beforehand though? I didn't interpret the wording as doing any damage when you mark them, but giving you the die on subsequent hits/per turn.

By my interpretation the last part of the second paragraph (section? Formatting is off in this book) states that the damage is included when you initially mark the target.

[Dork_Forge]

By my interpretation the last part of the second paragraph (section? Formatting is off in this book) states that the damage is included when you initially mark the target.

Oh jeez you're totally right, I read comlpetely over that. On demand crits bumping would be a good niche for it then assuming that you don't already have a concentration spell up.

[stoutstien]

Oh jeez you're totally right, I read comlpetely over that. On demand crits bumping would be a good niche for it then assuming that you don't already have a concentration spell up.

Wording is making it hard to catch these little changes. I'm currently on my 9th read through and finding more each time. There's bound to be a ton more cropping up in the next few weeks.

[Dork_Forge]

Wording is making it hard to catch these little changes. I'm currently on my 9th read through and finding more each time. There's bound to be a ton more cropping up in the next few weeks.

I'm glad it's not just me, the wording in many places is clunky at best and ambiguous at an alarming pace.

[stoutstien]

I'm glad it's not just me, the wording in many places is clunky at best and ambiguous at an alarming pace.
Power of a good editorial staff. They lost two good ones between ERLW and TCE

[Silpharon]

It makes ranger level 1 a bit more powerful. Starting the game as a ranger is about as bad as it gets.

[Kane0]

Okay, I don't like Favored Foe because I think we came up with something better here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?595643-By-request-Workshopping-another-Ranger), but for what it is I don't hate it.
- It doesn't use your BA which frees up TWF and other things
- It scales based on both prof bonus and ranger level, so helpful whether you MC/dip or not
- You get it at level 1, before spellcasting (granted this is a tiny factor, but no less true)
- Takes effect after a hit, like a smite (again a small factor, but limits wastage)
- It arguably should still work while you're concentrating anyways, just as the one instance of extra damage
- It arguably can be used against multiple targets if you use the same attack roll for them all

And honestly if it didn't take concentration I would expect most people to just take it as free extra damage and continue playing exactly as they did before with Hunter's Mark. Ranger has many failings but damage output isn't really one of them. This is another way to boost damage that isn't tied to spell slots, choice of subclass or bonus action.

So its good for TWF, Beastmasters, casting BA spells like Ensnaring strike and smite spells, and for longer days when you have fights where you want more damage output without using spells slots to do so.

[Asisreo1]

And honestly if it didn't take concentration I would expect most people to just take it as free extra damage and continue playing exactly as they did before with Hunter's Mark. Ranger has many failings but damage output isn't really one of them. This is another way to boost damage that isn't tied to spell slots, choice of subclass or bonus action.

The complaints about Favored Foe comes down to damage, as pure and simple as that.

The whole Concentration debacle is, in the same vein, about Damage.

One spell having concentration doesn't "prevent" casting another spell, it just means you drop the first. If you are consistently doing an extra 1d4 damage every turn except for one turn where you cast Ensnaring Strike and every turn thereafter, well, you don't get the additional damage. Again, its all about the damage.

Most combats don't last long enough that the additional damage is all that great. Most last for 3-5 rounds, meaning you might miss about 2-3d4 of damage overall once you drop your concentration (assuming your other effect isn't contributing to damage). Maybe 2-3d6 at higher level.

Favored Foe and Hunter's Mark are like Magic Missile. Its safe, reliable damage but that's just it. If the situation doesn't call for just damage, they shouldn't be so locked into it.

[Foxhound438]

ItÂ’s not a bad ability at all, esp. when the ranger needs to be spell slot conscious. People are used to going nova, however, and it gets generally squeezed out there. Still, given that it is 1/turn damage, IÂ’m genuinely shocked they made it use concentration.

rangers have so many stacking damage bonuses in the first few levels. It may be too good to have 2 attacks and 6 dice at level 3, so I would understand specifically not wanting it to stack on top of hunter's mark and everything else, even as a measily d4.

[Kane0]

The complaints about Favored Foe comes down to damage, as pure and simple as that.


Oh if that’s all, then ‘it does more than Favored Enemy’ should end the argument no?

[Nounverber]

As a disclaimer to the wall of text I wrote, I think the current favored foe is kinda weak compared to what other similar classes get (fighter, ranger), but it is at the very least better than the original favored enemy. It does have niche uses, but i think it doesn't match up with how fighter and paladin scale their damage abilities.

From what I can tell balance wise from the optional rules for ranger level 1 and 2, they wanted to give ranger an ability that is sorta useful but also doesn't make ranger an instant pick for multiclassing if you want best dps per encounter scenarios or some other hypothetical best niche build. If you look at abilities for fighter and paladin, they get similar abilities in levels 1 and 2: they get a low power heal, a fighting style, and a way to give themselves a quick nova boost to damage. Paladin gets spellcasting but his nova power is keyed off spellcasting so that way if he uses both his smites then he can't use casting.

Ranger meanwhile, gets a fighting style, two ribbon effects, and spellcasting. He might have a little low power damage move and a low power heal in spells, but he doesn't have it naturally. So, the solution is to give him favored foe, which is a low powered damage move but they have to give it to him at level 1 so that complicates things a little bit but not too much. For the explanation about why it's so limited, just look further down. Now that they have a damage ability that helps them out level 1 and 2 and scales at higher levels, they needed to fix the fact that ranger doesn't have a low power heal that scales. The solution in the ua was to give them options to pick like more movement speeds and movement (moving can mitigate damage), having an extra skill with expertise in it (proning someone with expertise in athletics helps mitigate damage or you can just take the free skill as a trade off), or getting a way to get temp health. The temp hp is neat because normally it's hard to get temp hp that lasts forever until someone knocks it out of you and it also can stack with second wind or lay on hands but it's still uniquely different than them. The issue with that was that balancing wise, if you pick that option you're guaranteed to be better at "healing" than fighter and paladin at low levels so instead of giving you a choice or trying to balance it at low levels they locked it away at higher levels as a solution. So, with the current change, fighter, paladin, and ranger get to be martial classes that get a fighting style, an extra dps option, and some kind of healing ability that scale slightly with levels while still being all martialy with some slight hiccups.

For why favored foe got nerfed so hard, I have a general idea about that. Since ranger gets their extra damage move earlier than the other two classes (except fighter can grab an average +2 ish damage from their fighting style), ranger extra damage move averages to about +2 damage. However, at higher levels, fighters get more attacks/uses of action surge and paladins get stronger and more smites. To fix that issue, favored foe gets scaling damage to help mitigate that. The restricted scaling helps deal with people multiclassing into ranger just for extra damage and expertise, like how the restrictions on sneak attack makes it so most martials don't dip rogue just for extra 1d6 and expertise. For why it's not a bonus action, that is to fix problems like why would a dual wielding ranger, something that would be common since it's the one melee damage fighting style that isn't dueling they get and since dual wielding ranger is iconic, ever use it. This also relates to stuff like horizon walker or beastmaster or fey wanderer ever using it since their bonus actions are usually full so they'd never use it unless they could outside of combat if it was a bonus action. Length being one minute means it lasts an entire encounter usually and it not being switchable means it's the slow burn damage that doesn't use slots vs instant payoff version that is smite but can maybe do as much damage as a single smite or action surge on one guy over multiple rounds. The thing about smite or action surge is you're doing a trade (sometimes you might want to action surge dash for extra movement or use the attacks to grapple and shove prone or instead of smiting you use a bless buff or emergency healing word). For favored foe, you just get the damage for free with no opportunity cost, so they have to put an opportunity cost baked into it to help balance. That opportunity cost is concentration: you can't ensnaring strike and also have bonus damage, you can't swift quiver and bonus damage, you can't hunters mark and also free bonus damage. Inbmy opinion, I don't see a lot of justification for needing to include the opportunity cost but I can at least see why.

Unfortunately, this combination of restrictions makes it way harder to want to multiclass ranger for these things unlike the other two classes: everyone, even casters will always appreciate action surge, and any martial can appreciate smiting with some caster focused gishes wanting big boy crit smites with their more plentiful spell slots. Most casters won't want favored foe because it eats up their concentration slot, fighter and paladin wouldn't want it because it would delay their extra attack/slot progression and an extra d4 wouldn't be worth it, barbarian can't use it while raging, and gishes could've gotten one of the two better for their use abilities from fighter or paladin instead. This leaves monk and rogue as maybe picking it except most monks would rather have 1 more use of stunning strike/flurry of blows more than 1d4. That leaves the rogue maybe picking it for extra damage since most of the drawbacks don't really affect them. They'd lose out on usually 1d6 of sneak attack and delay their class progression, but they'd get guaranteed 1d4 damage even if they can't sneak attack and a free expertise which could be something rogues care about. The problem with that again is that rogues now have the ability to give advantage to their next attack if they don't move which means they can at least guarantee the chance to sneak attack more often now

[Dork_Forge]

As a disclaimer to the wall of text I wrote, I think the current favored foe is kinda weak compared to what other similar classes get (fighter, ranger), but it is at the very least better than the original favored enemy. It does have niche uses, but i think it doesn't match up with how fighter and paladin scale their damage abilities.

SNIPPED FOR LENGTH

I think that your logic here is a bit flawed, by making it require concentration and tying its uses to proficiency bonus they made it a more attractive option for other classes rather than the Ranger themselves.

The Fighter doesn't usually have anything to concentrate on, the Paladin might use the odd conc spell, but having some low level damage that doesn't eat their slots let's them Smite more regularly with less remorse or use slots out of combat without worry that'd they'd completely kneecap their own damage.

Whereas for the Ranger, it completely shuts down the unique combat spells a Ranger might want to use for far subpar damage. It's useful at 1st level, but then quickly becomes redundant unless you are frequently in very long adventuring days that have encounters that warrant a damage boost frequently. There can be an argument that it frees up slots for casting, I don't think that's a strong argument given the cast gap in damage between it and Hunter's Mark but I think a bigger detractor to that is the rest of Tasha's:

-Primal Awareness gives the Ranger a bunch of spells that are free once a day

-Druidic Warrior gives them access to Druid cantrips

Both of which have a far more significant impact on the overall magic/casting level of the Ranger.

I think that whomever was working on the Ranger had a panic about it ending up too good and ultimately tanked it the other way:

-In Xanathar's we say single time damage bumps for the Ranger take the form of 1d8 (Gloom and Horizon) and more reuseable but limited damage getting a d6 (Monster Slayer)

-In contrast Tasha's shows us a new class wide ability that starts at a d4, along with the Fey Warden's damage bump being a d4.

-The Swarm keeper gets a d6 (still behind the Xanathar equivalent) but it's mundane piercing by the look of it and is competing for use with two other really solid options.

[Kane0]

I foresee many houserules/homebrew removing the concentration, most likely also removing the duration and increasing number of uses so it becomes a mini-smite 2x prof tomes per day or something.

Also, something pointed out to me today but I cannot confirm as I dont have my copy yet; it appears all classes got alternative class features that were basically in addition to their oroginal ones except the ranger, who Is the only one that has to choose which ones they get? Sad if true.

[Darzil]

I think UA Revised Ranger was too strong as a single level dip, especially with the later optional rules. Advantage on initiative, ignore difficult ground, advantage on first round attacks (sometimes), and multiple uses of concentrationless hunters mark, on top of its basic situational party overground bonus.

However, seems like now it’s down to just a weak concentration ability and the situational party bonus.

Whilst Twilight cleric gets cantrips, spells, heavy armour, advantage on initiative (for whomever they pick), improved darkvision (that they can share) for a single level dip.

(That is of course one of the extreme examples)

[bendking]

It's actually useful for Beast Master, since he can't spare a BA to cast Hunter's Mark. Especially past 11th level when his companion gets an extra attack.
It's also useful if you're going to do a Crossbow Expert build or any build with a busy BA.

That said, an extra 1d6 once per turn isn't huge by any means, but when it's still somewhat nice for those BA hungry builds.

[Darzil]

Yes, it’s not that bad for non Ranger builds without bonus actions (though there are much better dips), first level Rangers. or Rangers who have already used their spells.

The issue that TWF Rangers, Beastmaster Rangers etc have is that their spells compete with their abilities, but do not for other builds. That is really the problem to address.

Something along the lines of when casting a Ranger spell that uses a Bonus Action, a Ranger can still use an offhand attack as part of the Bonus Action and a Beastmaster can still command their Beast to attack. I am sure I saw a similar ability somewhere but I cannot recall where or find it.

[Emongnome777]

I’m thinking about doing one of the following (not both):

1) Remove concentration.
2) Remove the 1/turn limitation

If you go with 1), it stacks with HM, but it’s still 1/turn and only one creature per use. If you go with 2), it’s more damage, but eats concentration and still ends up being used for one creature per PB per day.

I don’t normally worry about the multiclassing abuse as my group only does single classes or non-dip multiclassing, but I can see how these buffs would make it more attractive as a dip.

[Darzil]

Maybe allow it to reset each short rest? Rangers have nothing else that does, and this isn’t very powerful