TPK Time?

[brian 333]

TPK is a trope in fantasy gaming. Long before Leroy Jenkins was born gamers have screamed and thrown dice at the DM when the party HP pool hit zero.

OotS has yet to feature this time honored rite of passage. Yet...

Now would be a perfect time for it to happen for several reasons:

It would give a plausible reason for Belkar being animated as an undead.

It would give us a glimpse into Haley and Elan's happily ever after.

It would create an early-in-the-book setback the protagonists have to overcome.

It would give us another page of Eugene and Roy.

With Scar and Sharkey running around with new allies there wouldn't even be need of a deus ex raise. Green and Orange could simply wait until Team Evil goes into another door and rescue the dead party.

I don't want it to happen, but if it does, now would be an almost perfect time for it.

[ebarde]

If literally the entire party dies, there really isn't a lot of tension cause it's a bit obvious that would get done away with fairly quickly. Also, you'd have to go in everyone's specific afterlifes since they're all going to separate ones, and it would be just very messy to do for very little actual payoff. I think it would de-rail things more than anything, and if the entire party just get's revived no problem that sorta will make it so the stakes of the comic severely lower, when Rich went through a lot of care to make sure death somehow still sticks or at least requires a bit of effort to undo in a world where death is a literal revolving door.

I mean, even with all his efforts I'm sure there is probably a few moments where someone could go "why didn't they just revive that guy" or whatever. Whenever there is literally any even somewhat meaningful character death Rich has to go through all the trouble of justifying why they don't just automatically undo it.

[Goblin_Priest]

"What is no, final answer."

[Quartz]

TPK is a trope in fantasy gaming. Long before Leroy Jenkins was born gamers have screamed and thrown dice at the DM when the party HP pool hit zero.

OotS has yet to feature this time honored rite of passage. Yet...

We sort of had this when the party activated Girard's Wierd trap.

[Darth V]

We had that already. Look closely at the last panel. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1128.html)

[deltamire]

O-Chul and Lien are paladins; as far as I can see, paladins in 3.5E don't get any reviving spells like they do in later editions*. Unless Hilgya has somehow stowed away in someone's bag of holding, or another cleric of a level high enough to cast raise dead / resurrection seven (not even considering monetary requirements) times over a short period of time and the will to do so is just wandering about in the artic wilderness, it seems unlikely the Order has anyone allied to their cause who could do it. The gods can't directly help, and we've had proof with the godsmoot arc that there are very few clerics of high enough level to cast it on the road right now, because most of them are stuck puttering about in the northern godsmoot. We've already had the whole 'we need to find a way to resurrect someone while the enemy is breathing down our neck!' arc with DSTP, anyhow.

Even if we did, then every other event after becomes suspect - if you could muster the power to resurrect seven people with ease ten, twenty pages ago, why can't you do it now? It would play havoc with the stakes of the story. Resurrection isn't all that cheap in OOTS, even if it is in actual dnd's higher tiers. The idea of going against that for a single joke of a TPK seems strange with the current trend of the comic using dnd tropes as a framework for the story to be read, not as an actual narrative structure.

*And even if OOTS was using 5E, paladins only get Resurrection's woebegone little cousin, Revivify, which needs to be cast within a minute of death, and Raise Dead, a fifth level spell of which you get a single slot of at 17th and then another at 19th, to a shocking two whole fifth level spell slots (that's the 1/2 caster lifestyle at work, alas) at 20th. Not exactly enough to raise an entire party, a good portion of who would be probably be corpseless, on account of the fact that destroying the body to prevent resurrection (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html) is a tactic used by someone who'd probably be involved with killing 'em. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html)

[InvisibleBison]

time honored rite of passage.

Say what? Where I come from, a TPK is failure, defeat, the end of the adventure, not something that every party is inevitably going to go through sooner or later.

[KorvinStarmast]

Say what? Where I come from, a TPK is failure, defeat, the end of the adventure, not something that every party is inevitably going to go through sooner or later.
Where I come from, it's an opportunity to roll up new characters. :smallcool:

OR

It sets the stage for the DM to say "Well, who is the next DM?"

[Metastachydium]

O-Chul and Lien are paladins; as far as I can see, paladins in 3.5E don't get any reviving spells like they do in later editions*. Unless Hilgya has somehow stowed away in someone's bag of holding, or another cleric of a level high enough to cast raise dead / resurrection seven (not even considering monetary requirements) times over a short period of time and the will to do so is just wandering about in the artic wilderness, it seems unlikely the Order has anyone allied to their cause who could do it. The gods can't directly help, and we've had proof with the godsmoot arc that there are very few clerics of high enough level to cast it on the road right now, because most of them are stuck puttering about in the northern godsmoot. We've already had the whole 'we need to find a way to resurrect someone while the enemy is breathing down our neck!' arc with DSTP, anyhow.

Even if we did, then every other event after becomes suspect - if you could muster the power to resurrect seven people with ease ten, twenty pages ago, why can't you do it now? It would play havoc with the stakes of the story. Resurrection isn't all that cheap in OOTS, even if it is in actual dnd's higher tiers. The idea of going against that for a single joke of a TPK seems strange with the current trend of the comic using dnd tropes as a framework for the story to be read, not as an actual narrative structure.


(Technically it could be manageable, were Team Tiamat to begin pulling its weight. Plenty of clerics available on the chassis of all-out divine foreknowledge. (Please note that even I find this unlikely, but hey. The possibility's there.))

[brian 333]

Where others see the improbable I see what might be possible.

The idea would not invalidate previous storytelling if handled properly, and you don't have a TPK until you see the Xs in their eyes.

It would give Green a reason to become visible.

It would give us an opportunity to see how the dungeons repopulate after adventurers, (or bugbears,) kill the monsters.

It would give the OotS a reason to back off and regroup, and not have the story climax here at the beginning of the last book.

I don't predict it happening, but if it was going to, now is the best opportunity for it to do so, at a time and in a place where the secondary team can fix it and perhaps get the story going in an unexpected direction.

[hroþila]

We had that already. Look closely at the last panel. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1128.html)
Total party knockout?

[dancrilis]

We had that already. Look closely at the last panel. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1128.html)

Mr. Scruffy was up and active - and he awoke Belkar who then defeated the vampires.

[Darth V]

The party was down, the only thing saving them from being butchered right there and then was author/DM fiat to push for the next step in Belkar's hippie vision quest. Mr Scruffy is an NPC.

[Grey Watcher]

TPK is a trope in fantasy gaming. Long before Leroy Jenkins was born gamers have screamed and thrown dice at the DM when the party HP pool hit zero.

I'd argue it's less a trope (a deliberate story device) and more of a consequence of the rules. Apart from the rare Killer DM, most DM's don't want a TPK, because then the players don't get to see all the content they've been slaving over.


OotS has yet to feature this time honored rite of passage. Yet...

Now would be a perfect time for it to happen for several reasons:

It would give a plausible reason for Belkar being animated as an undead.

By whom? And why?


It would give us a glimpse into Haley and Elan's happily ever after.

Howso? While I'm sure they'd go to a pleasant afterlife, I highly doubt that Elan would consider that a proper "happily ever after." And there's a strong possibility that Haley would blame herself and get all depressed that way.


It would create an early-in-the-book setback the protagonists have to overcome.

So Durkon blowing their one chance at surprise and being forced to retreat into the dungeon full of epic and near-epic creatures isn't a setback?


It would give us another page of Eugene and Roy.

And that would get us...? Roy's gotten considerably better at not letting Eugene bait him, and Eugene has just sort of given up, figuring either Roy's somehow going to pull it off or he'll fail and Xykon will get destroyed along with the rest of creation, so he doesn't have nearly as much motivation to henpeck Roy to begin with. Plus I feel like a lot of their verbal sparring is played out, and more of it would just get tedious.


With Scar and Sharkey running around with new allies there wouldn't even be need of a deus ex raise. Green and Orange could simply wait until Team Evil goes into another door and rescue the dead party.

There's no indication that Green and Orange would be remotely sympathetic to the Order. In fact, given that they attacked when the paladins mentioned that Order would want to secure the Gate, they almost certainly think the Order are their enemies at this point.


I don't want it to happen, but if it does, now would be an almost perfect time for it.

In the midst of setting off into a new part of the setting. I, for one, feel like we the audience should get a chance to see what the deal with Kraagor's Tomb is beyond the entrance.

[Goblin_Priest]

The party was down, the only thing saving them from being butchered right there and then was author/DM fiat to push for the next step in Belkar's hippie vision quest. Mr Scruffy is an NPC.

I concur with this guy.

[dancrilis]

The party was down, the only thing saving them from being butchered right there and then was author/DM fiat to push for the next step in Belkar's hippie vision quest. Mr Scruffy is an NPC.

He would either be a class feature or a member of the party - either way he would count.

Also Roy seemed to knock Belkar out without damaging him (possibly the sword has some kindof a sleep effect) then Durkon exploited a loophole in the vampire creation spell to incapacitate not-Durkon, Mr. Scruffy woke up Belkar, Belkar used his high ranks in hide and move silently to ambush a vampire and kill her (and cause the other one to flee rather then likely suffer the same) before finishing off not-Durkon.

That is some high end teamwork right there - no doubt even Nale would be impressed at the level of planning that went into it and anyone should be impressed that they managed to pull it off.

[The Pilgrim]

TPK already happened in the last book.

[brian 333]

TPK already happened in the last book.

I disagree. The only one with Xs in her eyes was Hilgya. So long as the party HP pool is greater than 0 it's not a TPK.

We can disagree on the meaning of TPK, but the definition I am using is Total Party Kill, not Total Party Knockout.

[Riftwolf]

I disagree. The only one with Xs in her eyes was Hilgya. So long as the party HP pool is greater than 0 it's not a TPK.

We can disagree on the meaning of TPK, but the definition I am using is Total Party Kill, not Total Party Knockout.

You mean Minrah.

And... No, TPK isn't some rite of passage for a gaming group. Also killing off every member of the Order and having them resurrected by... Oh, let's say... Fura Morrard/Bloodmouth from Skyrim would be a pretty crummy way for the story to go. I dislike stories where characters are robbed of agency at key points but survive because of plot say-so.
Also from a technical standpoint, how do you think the Order would be better served by becoming weaker than they already are? If a DM said 'oh btw, just before the final boss, you all die and get rezzed lol drop a level', the table would be flipped so hard the centrifugal force would hold the miniatures in place.



Also Roy seemed to knock Belkar out without damaging him (possibly the sword has some kindof a sleep effect)


He struck with the flat of the blade to deal nonlethal damage. The pain of the clasp spell was enough to shock Belkar awake, then he raged so he could make attack actions again. (we don't see what happened after his rage ended, but by that point Hilgya was free of mind control, so he probably got a CLW after passing out again.)

[dancrilis]

f a DM said 'oh btw, just before the final boss, you all die and get rezzed lol drop a level', the table would be flipped so hard the centrifugal force would hold the miniatures in place.

So no harm done.

[woweedd]

The party was down, the only thing saving them from being butchered right there and then was author/DM fiat to push for the next step in Belkar's hippie vision quest. Mr Scruffy is an NPC.
Mr. Scruffy's is Belkar's Animal Companion. He's a class feature of a PC.

[Goblin_Priest]

Mr. Scruffy's is Belkar's Animal Companion. He's a class feature of a PC.

Yea, like Leadership is a character feat. Those are still NPCs, though there's some table variation as to how true this is.

Besides, the whole battle was the fruit of DM fiat, from the PCs failing all the saves they needed to fail, to then being KOed as quickly as they needed, to then Belkar being wakened by something that heals no HP, to finally Durkon overtaking his vampiric parasite. No other battle in this comic comes as much as this one as the GM just having made up his idea of what would be cool and dramatic, and then hamfisting everything into playing out as he had planned for it to.

[Grey Watcher]

Yea, like Leadership is a character feat. Those are still NPCs, though there's some table variation as to how true this is.

Besides, the whole battle was the fruit of DM fiat, from the PCs failing all the saves they needed to fail, to then being KOed as quickly as they needed, to then Belkar being wakened by something that heals no HP, to finally Durkon overtaking his vampiric parasite. No other battle in this comic comes as much as this one as the GM just having made up his idea of what would be cool and dramatic, and then hamfisting everything into playing out as he had planned for it to.

I don't know that it's as hamfisted. Yeah, the exact mechanics of Belkar getting knocked out and awakened don't square very well with D&D rules, but otherwise a battle goes the way it goes by a combination of what the DM, the players, and the dice say. It's just in this case, all three of those are Rich Burlew.

[dancrilis]

Yeah, the exact mechanics of Belkar getting knocked out and awakened don't square very well with D&D rules

Squares fairly well if Roy's sword can apply the 'Hiss of Sleep' spell on hit.

[woweedd]

Yea, like Leadership is a character feat. Those are still NPCs, though there's some table variation as to how true this is.

Besides, the whole battle was the fruit of DM fiat, from the PCs failing all the saves they needed to fail, to then being KOed as quickly as they needed, to then Belkar being wakened by something that heals no HP, to finally Durkon overtaking his vampiric parasite. No other battle in this comic comes as much as this one as the GM just having made up his idea of what would be cool and dramatic, and then hamfisting everything into playing out as he had planned for it to.
No, the ability doesn't heal HP, but it does cause pain, which tends to wake people up: Presumably, this is OOTS house rule's flavoring the XP penalty from using an item of an alignment that doesn't match yours. As for the HP...I would note that Belkar is a Barbarian, as easy as it is to forget: And raging happens to grant a Constitution bonus, and, with it, a few temporary hit points, which brought him back up from zero. Mind, that means that, if he had gotten hit during the fight, he'd have started dying once it wore off, but A. He managed to avoid taking any hits while enraged, and B. Even if he did, there was a Cleric right there.

[Morty]

Yea, like Leadership is a character feat. Those are still NPCs, though there's some table variation as to how true this is.

Besides, the whole battle was the fruit of DM fiat, from the PCs failing all the saves they needed to fail, to then being KOed as quickly as they needed, to then Belkar being wakened by something that heals no HP, to finally Durkon overtaking his vampiric parasite. No other battle in this comic comes as much as this one as the GM just having made up his idea of what would be cool and dramatic, and then hamfisting everything into playing out as he had planned for it to.

Considering that this is a story and not a tabletop campaign, the "GM" making up an idea of what needs to happen is indeed the only possible way for anything to happen.

[Riftwolf]

So no harm done.

After trying to rage quit a little *too* hard, the party has no choice but to sit back down and continue as if nothing happened.

[SlashDash]

Ummm... No. Seriously No.

The reason for the total wipeout last book was to give Durkon a moment to shine. There is no way Greg would have such a dramatic dialogue with Durkon if the battle was still going on.
The only way to make that happen is to stop the battle and it Greg that wins it or he would be busy running. Greg would only do that, as he says himself, if he wins.

Also, the story needed to make it clear how powerful the vampires are. We're talking a global threat here and even more so -
The whole point was to focus on Durkon and Sigdi in the last arc and thus their family involved in the last battle.

Yes, the author used the convenient trick that only Dwarves can go inside, but he also needed to justify the need for them in the first place. If the vampires didn't absolutely win the fight, why would backup be needed?

The order are high level PCs. They were stronger than practically anything Azure City had (short of Miko) so to let the dwarves take over the battle, they needed the party to be taken down a peg.
Wiping out the party served the narrative perfectly.





Now, this isn't needed at all. Xykon is already the supreme threat that he is. On top of that, this would be two wipes in a row - there's no need in repeating it at all.
The only farfetched reason I would think that the narative would require the party to go down is to put a huge emphasis on the person saving them.
So unless that's Redcloak turning sides, it isn't needed at all.

This is the last book. It should focus on the party, how they evolved and giving them their heroic arcs etc.
Killing them would ruin that.



P.S
Also, Belkar won't be coming back as an undead. File it under the same category as "been there, done that".

[Ruck]

The idea would not invalidate previous storytelling if handled properly

That is easy to say in theory, and in this case I would wager impossible to do in practice.

[Psepha]

I can understand the idea of a TPK being a "rite of passage", but one of the key things is who it's a rite of passage for.

I'd argue that it could be considered that for the players, but not for the characters themselves. Players can all expect to go through a TPK at some point or other, and it's often a learning experience about tactics or just that sometimes the dice are against you (assuming it's not the result of a killer DM). However the characters themselves never have that lesson - if you have a TPK then those characters' stories are just over. TPK almost always means the end of that game. And on that basis, since there's no actual game and no actual players, just the characters, I don't think the logic stands.

Also we know that Elan's due a happy ending, so it's hard to picture how that fits with Elan and all of his friends dying.

[KorvinStarmast]

I can understand the idea of a TPK being a "rite of passage", but one of the key things is who it's a rite of passage for.

I'd argue that it could be considered that for the players, but not for the characters themselves. while I mostly agree, for the characters it is a part of the rite of passage into the afterlife ... or into legends and lore ... bardic tales of tragedy or comedy ...

[Goblin_Priest]

Personally, and to each their own, but personally, I would have much rather that Durkon do his thing /during/ the battle, at a climactic moment, without

*Roy putting all his team mates to sleep with his sword
*every single save made by the PCs failing
*Durkula actually handling Durkon at speed of thought instead of constantly skipping his turn
*Belkar coming back from KO without a heal
*Belkar then soloing all the other vampires when Roy couldn't

I get that Durkon needed to do his thing at a pivotal moment, but I don't think that incapacitating the whole party was needed for this nor made it better. Everything felt way more contrived than it usually is.

[dancrilis]

Everything felt way more contrived than it usually is.

I don't know.
Here (panel 1) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0930.html) not-Durkon is set to be destroyed in a round, Belkar is down, Roy is down, Haley is stunned, Vaarsuvius is grappled so effectively incapacitated.

And the only thing that saved them was 'the DM' delivering an NPC (and cover) at exactly the right round.

You could also nitpick the first battle with Xykon, where Redcloak and The Monster in the Darkness both leave when between them they likely had the power to finish the order then and there (and save the gate), and that is ignoring Roy successfully grappling and throwing Xykon after making an unarmed strike to take his head off.

Of course since this is a story not a game these things are to be expected - and in that context I think all the above seem to work well enough.

[Yanisa]

Personally, and to each their own, but personally, I would have much rather that Durkon do his thing /during/ the battle, at a climactic moment, without

I get that Durkon needed to do his thing at a pivotal moment, but I don't think that incapacitating the whole party was needed for this nor made it better. Everything felt way more contrived than it usually is.

I can't take away all your grievances, but let me try to add some D&D rules to give some context. To a hardcore nerd as myself scenes like this just really click. And list also really click with me, so I just needed to counter-list. :smalltongue:


*Roy putting all his team mates to sleep with his sword
I saw that as non lethal damage, and Roy should have enough attack to take the -4 to hit and still be able to hit Haley. And his damage is high enough to knock them down in one or two hits.

*every single save made by the PCs failing
In general the vampires seem to have high DCs. We don't see them fail often.
Besides, it's a will save and Belkar has no will save to speak off, Haley is pretty low and Elan is decent. Only Hylga's is the outlier, she probably had like a 5-10% chance of failure.

*Belkar coming back from KO without a heal
My favorite theory is that Belkar went in rage from the pain. That would give him temporary hit points.

*Belkar then soloing all the other vampires when Roy couldn't
Most vampires are killed, even Roy managed to kill one (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1126.html) when most of the team was dominated.
Belkar killed 1 additional vampire, that maybe was still injured (unsure if drinking blood heals vampires), and clearly was unware of him (Flat footed), when he was also in rage. The second one fled (a character flaw of that vampire). The third one was Durkon, who scarified himself.

I still give you that scenes like these contrived, you won't probably see them in any real D&D game. But for me it could happen in a game, and that's what I like about Richard's writing.

[woweedd]

I can't take away all your grievances, but let me try to add some D&D rules to give some context. To a hardcore nerd as myself scenes like this just really click. And list also really click with me, so I just needed to counter-list. :smalltongue:


I saw that as non lethal damage, and Roy should have enough attack to take the -4 to hit and still be able to hit Haley. And his damage is high enough to knock them down in one or two hits.

In general the vampires seem to have high DCs. We don't see them fail often.
Besides, it's a will save and Belkar has no will save to speak off, Haley is pretty low and Elan is decent. Only Hylga's is the outlier, she probably had like a 5-10% chance of failure.

My favorite theory is that Belkar went in rage from the pain. That would give him temporary hit points.

Most vampires are killed, even Roy managed to kill one (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1126.html) when most of the team was dominated.
Belkar killed 1 additional vampire, that maybe was still injured (unsure if drinking blood heals vampires), and clearly was unware of him (Flat footed), when he was also in rage. The second one fled (a character flaw of that vampire). The third one was Durkon, who scarified himself.

I still give you that scenes like these contrived, you won't probably see them in any real D&D game. But for me it could happen in a game, and that's what I like about Richard's writing.

I think how Belkar killed those is A. Crit on the first (as shown in the narrative by a straight-up beheading), B. Successful Intimidate check on the second, and, of course, Durkon pretty much giftwrapped himself.

[skim172]

Personally, and to each their own, but personally, I would have much rather that Durkon do his thing /during/ the battle, at a climactic moment, without

*Roy putting all his team mates to sleep with his sword
*every single save made by the PCs failing
*Durkula actually handling Durkon at speed of thought instead of constantly skipping his turn
*Belkar coming back from KO without a heal
*Belkar then soloing all the other vampires when Roy couldn't

I get that Durkon needed to do his thing at a pivotal moment, but I don't think that incapacitating the whole party was needed for this nor made it better. Everything felt way more contrived than it usually is.

I'm willing to set that aside, as it's not the "deus ex machina" type of contrivance that will disrupt a story. All the elements of that scene were introduced or foreshadowed beforehand - vampiric mind control, Hilgya's firestorm, Belkar's broach, Durkon's memory games - none of it suddenly came out of nowhere. I suppose the only new thing is Roy's ability to KO people - which isn't particularly a shock. Hilgya losing her will save was surprising - but not impossible.

Yes, the scenario was designed to build dramatic tension to its height - but that is kind of the purpose of a story. All fiction, by definition, involves some contrivance, and generally the most entertaining stories are not reflective of the mean experience of reality.

Also, I would point out that Rich has said that while this world is structured on D&D rules, it's not intended to reflect a D&D gaming session. It doesn't always stick to the rules.

Also, if we're gonna complain about contrivance when discussing a battle with vampires, a fictional species of magically-puppeted walking dead that drinks blood and can't take a suntan - well, our disbelief is already well-suspended.

I could argue from the other side how massively contrived D&D vampires are anyway. There was a guy in my middle school D&D group whose character was a vampire half-dragon mage who had amazing magical powers, could not be killed, and commanded an army of mind-controlled slaves from his doom fortress, and every time his character faced any sort of threat, he would reveal yet another goddamn vampire power or trait from some monster manual that made him invincible to it. Playing D&D with him quickly became very, very dull.

[Goblin_Priest]

I don't know.
Here (panel 1) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0930.html) not-Durkon is set to be destroyed in a round, Belkar is down, Roy is down, Haley is stunned, Vaarsuvius is grappled so effectively incapacitated.

And the only thing that saved them was 'the DM' delivering an NPC (and cover) at exactly the right round.

You could also nitpick the first battle with Xykon, where Redcloak and The Monster in the Darkness both leave when between them they likely had the power to finish the order then and there (and save the gate), and that is ignoring Roy successfully grappling and throwing Xykon after making an unarmed strike to take his head off.

Of course since this is a story not a game these things are to be expected - and in that context I think all the above seem to work well enough.

That battle didn't really bother me, because the Legion was set up to be a formidable opponent. Durkula, not so much. He's a single cleric of at most the same level as the party, and all of his mooks are way, way weaker, and the Order for once had proper time and intent to prepare. Though it wouldn't have been as dramatic, I would have expected the Order to wipe out the vampires without much difficulty, as things were set up.


I can't take away all your grievances, but let me try to add some D&D rules to give some context. To a hardcore nerd as myself scenes like this just really click. And list also really click with me, so I just needed to counter-list. :smalltongue:


I saw that as non lethal damage, and Roy should have enough attack to take the -4 to hit and still be able to hit Haley. And his damage is high enough to knock them down in one or two hits.

In general the vampires seem to have high DCs. We don't see them fail often.
Besides, it's a will save and Belkar has no will save to speak off, Haley is pretty low and Elan is decent. Only Hylga's is the outlier, she probably had like a 5-10% chance of failure.

My favorite theory is that Belkar went in rage from the pain. That would give him temporary hit points.

Most vampires are killed, even Roy managed to kill one (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1126.html) when most of the team was dominated.
Belkar killed 1 additional vampire, that maybe was still injured (unsure if drinking blood heals vampires), and clearly was unware of him (Flat footed), when he was also in rage. The second one fled (a character flaw of that vampire). The third one was Durkon, who scarified himself.

I still give you that scenes like these contrived, you won't probably see them in any real D&D game. But for me it could happen in a game, and that's what I like about Richard's writing.


I think how Belkar killed those is A. Crit on the first (as shown in the narrative by a straight-up beheading), B. Successful Intimidate check on the second, and, of course, Durkon pretty much giftwrapped himself.

I'm familiar with D&D rules. The DC on the dominate would have been around what, 17? I'd have expected at this level for classes with weak will saves to still have around +8 total. Like, why is Roy always resisting, even with a good wisdom score he still has a bad will save progression. Belkar, even with a negative wisdom modifier, would probably be able to get a better will save than he does, or at least pretty comparable, and yet Belkar always fails. Hylgia should have passed that save on a 2, and yet she fails. Haley and Elan wouldn't have been guaranteed to make the save, but still have a decent chance of making it.

And yet, only Roy ever saves, everyone else always fails. And when ordered to attack their team mates, they should have gotten a new save, with a +2, and yet nobody ever breaks the enchantment.

Similarly, dispel magic requires a check, and most of these casters should be pretty low level, yet no buffs remain at the end. Plus I only see 5 casters do dispel, and they had more than 5 buffs on. So it couldn't have been an area dispel, as the limit is 1 spell per target in the area, and if targetted then it needed for each dispeller to succeed on each of his dispel checks.

On top of the bad guys making every single save, and the good guys failing every single save... then you've got all the horrible tactical decisions, like Roy wasting time breaking Haley's bow, Minrah... honestly I'm not even sure, is that an attack of opportunity she provoked from Belkar when trying to heal V? Why not just heal from a bit further. Or use a Mass heal spell, those have reach.

And then the order always seems to roll minimum when convenient, and maximum when likewise convenient. Sure, I know about nonlethal (or subdual) damage. But he still knocks off Belkar way too easily, despite Belkar probably having quite a bit of HP.


I'm willing to set that aside, as it's not the "deus ex machina" type of contrivance that will disrupt a story. All the elements of that scene were introduced or foreshadowed beforehand - vampiric mind control, Hilgya's firestorm, Belkar's broach, Durkon's memory games - none of it suddenly came out of nowhere. I suppose the only new thing is Roy's ability to KO people - which isn't particularly a shock. Hilgya losing her will save was surprising - but not impossible.

Yes, the scenario was designed to build dramatic tension to its height - but that is kind of the purpose of a story. All fiction, by definition, involves some contrivance, and generally the most entertaining stories are not reflective of the mean experience of reality.

Also, I would point out that Rich has said that while this world is structured on D&D rules, it's not intended to reflect a D&D gaming session. It doesn't always stick to the rules.

Also, if we're gonna complain about contrivance when discussing a battle with vampires, a fictional species of magically-puppeted walking dead that drinks blood and can't take a suntan - well, our disbelief is already well-suspended.

I could argue from the other side how massively contrived D&D vampires are anyway. There was a guy in my middle school D&D group whose character was a vampire half-dragon mage who had amazing magical powers, could not be killed, and commanded an army of mind-controlled slaves from his doom fortress, and every time his character faced any sort of threat, he would reveal yet another goddamn vampire power or trait from some monster manual that made him invincible to it. Playing D&D with him quickly became very, very dull.

I recognize the setup. It certainly could have been way worse. I just feel like the execution could also have been better, and not rely on all rolls being nat 1s or nat 20s depending on what makes it more dramatic.

[brian 333]

Issues with the previous TPK(nockout) aside, where do we go from here?

The party is unprepared for the ultimate battle and they have boxed themselves into a dungeon with only one exit, where they face two, possibly three foes, (if MitD shows up,) any one of whom could defeat the party on a good day.

It is far too early in the book for Xykon to loose, unless he's been the McGuffin all along, (contrary to Mr.Burlews statements on the subject.)

So, the party can force Xykon to retreat, possibly opening up an opportunity to visit the Astral Fortress, or the party can lose, with nowhere to hide.

This leaves intervention by Green and the paladins. Green seems like the kind to watch things unfold rather than directly interfere, so I assume her help will come after the fact.

Also, Xykon's thing with coffee forshadows Belkar's inability to savor his next birthday cake.
(that last bit is a joke, just in case you didn't know)

[Metastachydium]

Issues with the previous TPK(nockout) aside, where do we go from here?

The party is unprepared for the ultimate battle and they have boxed themselves into a dungeon with only one exit, where they face two, possibly three foes, (if MitD shows up,) any one of whom could defeat the party on a good day.

It is far too early in the book for Xykon to loose, unless he's been the McGuffin all along, (contrary to Mr.Burlews statements on the subject.)

So, the party can force Xykon to retreat, possibly opening up an opportunity to visit the Astral Fortress, or the party can lose, with nowhere to hide.

Except not really. You seem to think that Xykon will catch up with the Order here and now, no matter what, which is not a given, and in fact quite unlikely. The Order ran into a dungeon and went out of their way to erase their trails precisely because they intend not to fight Team Evil at this point.


Green seems like the kind to watch things unfold rather than directly interfere, so I assume her help will come after the fact.

We have only seen heard Green once thus far, and all Green did was to directly interfere with what was happening at that point. (Also, since when do we know Green is a she?)

[Goblin_Priest]

Issues with the previous TPK(nockout) aside, where do we go from here?

The party is unprepared for the ultimate battle and they have boxed themselves into a dungeon with only one exit, where they face two, possibly three foes, (if MitD shows up,) any one of whom could defeat the party on a good day.

It is far too early in the book for Xykon to loose, unless he's been the McGuffin all along, (contrary to Mr.Burlews statements on the subject.)

So, the party can force Xykon to retreat, possibly opening up an opportunity to visit the Astral Fortress, or the party can lose, with nowhere to hide.

This leaves intervention by Green and the paladins. Green seems like the kind to watch things unfold rather than directly interfere, so I assume her help will come after the fact.

Also, Xykon's thing with coffee forshadows Belkar's inability to savor his next birthday cake.
(that last bit is a joke, just in case you didn't know)

I don't follow. Xykon can maybe take on the order solo, maybe. MitD can maybe do it, too. Redcloak can't. Oona presumably can't, though for all we know she's a level 64 character. Grewview presumably can't, but again, we don't know much about his strength and what perks he'd get from a level 64 master. So who are the two you are refering to, excluding MitD?

The dungeon could have loops. It's entirely possible to lure Team Evil into the right dungeon, and then still escape without a battle. The only way Team Evil can block an escape is to camp the exit.

So yea, escape without a battle is entirely a possibility.

Then there's battle, and there's no reason that needs to be conclusive. Durkon and Minrah escaped Xykon once, they could perhaps do it again. Escape following battle is another possibility.

Defeat and capture is another alternative to defeat and death.

Party splitting where some are defeated and others escape is another possibility. V is protected while in the IFCC's charge, so that's another venue.

There's also victory, albeit presumably partial. I don't expect Xykon to die now, though who knows. His death would force the resolution of all the questions around the phylactery con. Though Team Evil is stronger, they might have depleted resources on a door earlier, they did deplete some resources on the dwarves, they might be forced to deplete resources on the door they just entered, and finally, the trap that Haley is bypassing might be the mechanism that renews monsters inside so they might again be faced with epic or near-epic challenges. Team Evil has been defeated plenty of times before, they could be once again.

[Kish]

I think how Belkar killed those is A. Crit on the first (as shown in the narrative by a straight-up beheading),
Not at all to support Goblin_Priest's complaints here, but vampires are immune to crits.

[Ruck]

I saw that as non lethal damage, and Roy should have enough attack to take the -4 to hit and still be able to hit Haley. And his damage is high enough to knock them down in one or two hits.

I'm not a D&D rules stickler or even someone who could be considered knowledgeable, but this is what I assumed too.

[woweedd]

That battle didn't really bother me, because the Legion was set up to be a formidable opponent. Durkula, not so much. He's a single cleric of at most the same level as the party, and all of his mooks are way, way weaker, and the Order for once had proper time and intent to prepare. Though it wouldn't have been as dramatic, I would have expected the Order to wipe out the vampires without much difficulty, as things were set up.





I'm familiar with D&D rules. The DC on the dominate would have been around what, 17? I'd have expected at this level for classes with weak will saves to still have around +8 total. Like, why is Roy always resisting, even with a good wisdom score he still has a bad will save progression. Belkar, even with a negative wisdom modifier, would probably be able to get a better will save than he does, or at least pretty comparable, and yet Belkar always fails. Hylgia should have passed that save on a 2, and yet she fails. Haley and Elan wouldn't have been guaranteed to make the save, but still have a decent chance of making it.

And yet, only Roy ever saves, everyone else always fails. And when ordered to attack their team mates, they should have gotten a new save, with a +2, and yet nobody ever breaks the enchantment.

Similarly, dispel magic requires a check, and most of these casters should be pretty low level, yet no buffs remain at the end. Plus I only see 5 casters do dispel, and they had more than 5 buffs on. So it couldn't have been an area dispel, as the limit is 1 spell per target in the area, and if targetted then it needed for each dispeller to succeed on each of his dispel checks.

On top of the bad guys making every single save, and the good guys failing every single save... then you've got all the horrible tactical decisions, like Roy wasting time breaking Haley's bow, Minrah... honestly I'm not even sure, is that an attack of opportunity she provoked from Belkar when trying to heal V? Why not just heal from a bit further. Or use a Mass heal spell, those have reach.

And then the order always seems to roll minimum when convenient, and maximum when likewise convenient. Sure, I know about nonlethal (or subdual) damage. But he still knocks off Belkar way too easily, despite Belkar probably having quite a bit of HP.



I recognize the setup. It certainly could have been way worse. I just feel like the execution could also have been better, and not rely on all rolls being nat 1s or nat 20s depending on what makes it more dramatic.
Yes, that is how stories work. There are no die rolls here: It happens based on what it makes for a better story. Most stories do not adhere to strict rules of probability.

[Ruck]

Yes, that is how stories work. There are no die rolls here: It happens based on what it makes for a better story. Most stories do not adhere to strict rules of probability.

To follow up-- what makes for the better story still must be plausible, but it doesn't have to be the most likely outcome, or even a foreseeable one. (Aside, I have been impressed with how often The Giant has come up with storytelling turns that make sense but I still didn't foresee, especially the longer the story has gone on.)

[Goblin_Priest]

To follow up-- what makes for the better story still must be plausible, but it doesn't have to be the most likely outcome, or even a foreseeable one. (Aside, I have been impressed with how often The Giant has come up with storytelling turns that make sense but I still didn't foresee, especially the longer the story has gone on.)

Indeed. A predictable story would be boring. But there's a huge difference between predictable and plausible.

And going from "the whole Order is down and all the vampires reign supreme, with all of their important assets intact" to "one beat up order of the Order wakes up and suddenly kills all the vampires solo"... strains plausibility. In 3.5, undead are immune to critical hits and sneak attack. Not only does she appear to have healed while Roy was fighting the others of the Order (no more damage marks and, seriously, she had plenty of rounds), but she also drained blood after leaving the antilife shell, which would have given her a ton of temporary HP. There's zero reason she should be one-shoted by Belkar. We've even seen her tank a hit from Roy without much issue.

And I just don't see what it brings to the story to have the whole party defeated at that point. They finally had preparation, and there was zero pay-off, so it kinda nulled their growth as a team. And the reversal was both inexplicable by game mechanics and came out of the blue, a deus ex machina.

I just think the story would have been better served by having the order struggle, and perhaps do a few mistakes, but not an actual TPK, with Durkon overtaking Durkula during the actual fight, or just fooling him into making a critical mistake. You know, show us how they've matured as a team (albeit less than the point they are at now), and have the fight play out in a more organic and plausible manner, than just "oh yea, every save the order makes fails, every dispell check the bad guys make succeed".

[brian 333]

We have spent a lot of time discussing what happened last book, but I had hoped to discuss what is coming next.

Unless G+O intervene it looks bad for the home team. If you don't think a TPK is about to happen, please explain why or offer better solutions to the current crisis. I don't see Xykon saying, "Well, they're gone. Let's go for coffee and donuts."

I do expect Green to intervene, but only after the party fails. The shape of that failure could be other than a TPK, but a TPK at this time would allow Team Evil to go back to business as usual while the Order learns, grows, and prepares for the next fight at the end of the book.

And anything short of a TPK leaves Team Evil hunting for them.

[Metastachydium]

We have spent a lot of time discussing what happened last book, but I had hoped to discuss what is coming next.

Unless G+O intervene it looks bad for the home team. If you don't think a TPK is about to happen, please explain why or offer better solutions to the current crisis. I don't see Xykon saying, "Well, they're gone. Let's go for coffee and donuts."

I do expect Green to intervene, but only after the party fails. The shape of that failure could be other than a TPK, but a TPK at this time would allow Team Evil to go back to business as usual while the Order learns, grows, and prepares for the next fight at the end of the book.

And anything short of a TPK leaves Team Evil hunting for them.

Again, X. looking for the Order and X. finding the Order are two vastly different things. Running into the Voices or the Mystery Ally could easily propel the plot forward without anyone dying. (Also, the Order cannot learn, grow or prepare much while dead, and losing a level will not do good service to any of them, least of all to Durkon.)

[Gurgeh]

Like, why is Roy always resisting, even with a good wisdom score he still has a bad will save progression. Belkar, even with a negative wisdom modifier, would probably be able to get a better will save than he does, or at least pretty comparable, and yet Belkar always fails.
Just nitpicking about this point in particular - Belkar's will save progression is worse than Roy's, since he's a multiclass character and all of his classes have bad will progression. (Ranger has good fortitude/reflex, barbarian only has good fortitude). The absolute best-case scenario for Belkar is that every single one of his classes has a total level divisible by three, which would make his base will save exactly the same as a single-classed character with bad will save progression. Rage can give Belkar a +2 bonus which will still likely leave him behind Roy due to the difference in ability score modifiers (and also doesn't stack with any bonus that Elan might apply with Inspire Courage or Inspire Heroics.

Roy does save more often than he probably ought to if it were a matter of simple statistics, but even in a scenario where that was the rule, he ought to be doing so more frequently than Belkar.

[Goblin_Priest]

Just nitpicking about this point in particular - Belkar's will save progression is worse than Roy's, since he's a multiclass character and all of his classes have bad will progression. (Ranger has good fortitude/reflex, barbarian only has good fortitude). The absolute best-case scenario for Belkar is that every single one of his classes has a total level divisible by three, which would make his base will save exactly the same as a single-classed character with bad will save progression. Rage can give Belkar a +2 bonus which will still likely leave him behind Roy due to the difference in ability score modifiers (and also doesn't stack with any bonus that Elan might apply with Inspire Courage or Inspire Heroics.

Roy does save more often than he probably ought to if it were a matter of simple statistics, but even in a scenario where that was the rule, he ought to be doing so more frequently than Belkar.

Huh, when I looked up ranger, I thought I saw good will save progression. Guess you are right on that, and that Belkar probably has the worst will save of them all.

But it remains that Roy is the only character who ever resists and shrugs off domination, even when there are clearly other characters with better will saves and many others with close enough will saves.

[ebarde]

While I guess that scene was a bit contrived fight wise, I thought it was really cool that despite being able to go through memories at the speed of thought he was still paralyzed by that moment. Because it doesn't matter how much he went over that memory, he would still lack any sort of living experience to properly deal with that, the only way to really come to terms with it he had to experience every single memory Durkon had it since. The fact that he actually stopped for several rounds, made me think that he was just playing that memory on loop just constantly, to a degree where even in relative time he couldn't shake off the traumatic shock of it all.

[Morty]

We have spent a lot of time discussing what happened last book, but I had hoped to discuss what is coming next.

Unless G+O intervene it looks bad for the home team. If you don't think a TPK is about to happen, please explain why or offer better solutions to the current crisis. I don't see Xykon saying, "Well, they're gone. Let's go for coffee and donuts."

I do expect Green to intervene, but only after the party fails. The shape of that failure could be other than a TPK, but a TPK at this time would allow Team Evil to go back to business as usual while the Order learns, grows, and prepares for the next fight at the end of the book.

And anything short of a TPK leaves Team Evil hunting for them.

How are we supposed to tell you what's going to happen? We don't know what's going to happen, that's why we're still reading the story. Your claim is that it "has" to end in a TPK and it's on you to prove it. People don't need to present alternate predictions to refute it.

[ebarde]

I mean, even if Xykon cares enough to chase them down, all we get is that classical Scooby Doo scene with them chasing each other through various doors lol it ends with Xykon running into himself

[RatElemental]

Huh, when I looked up ranger, I thought I saw good will save progression. Guess you are right on that, and that Belkar probably has the worst will save of them all.

But it remains that Roy is the only character who ever resists and shrugs off domination, even when there are clearly other characters with better will saves and many others with close enough will saves.

Roy's a human fighter, so he's got feats to spare too. I wouldn't be surprised if he picked up iron will, steadfast determination or that ACF that lets fighters trade a bonus feat for the ability to apply their BAB to will saves.

[Kish]

Huh, when I looked up ranger, I thought I saw good will save progression. Guess you are right on that, and that Belkar probably has the worst will save of them all.

But it remains that Roy is the only character who ever resists and shrugs off domination, even when there are clearly other characters with better will saves and many others with close enough will saves.
Neither Durkon nor Vaarsuvius has ever been mind-controlled. So...who are these Clearly Other Characters?

[Riftwolf]

Also, we remember that V and Roy had Mind Blank right? From what I recall, dispel tries to dispel the highest rank spell first, then if it fails the second highest etc till it is successful. Elan, Haley, Hilgya and Belkar (and presumably Kudzu) had Protection from Law from a wand. Wands have the lowest possible caster level for the spell they hold.
So the vampires dispel-spammed, but none of them were high enough to hit the Mind Blanks, but still hit the Prot. Vs Law (as well as the spawn protections). Other buff spells we don't know if they were dispelled or not; Haley could've easily gotten enough damage with sneak attacks to beat Stoneskin.

[skim172]

We have spent a lot of time discussing what happened last book, but I had hoped to discuss what is coming next.

Unless G+O intervene it looks bad for the home team. If you don't think a TPK is about to happen, please explain why or offer better solutions to the current crisis. I don't see Xykon saying, "Well, they're gone. Let's go for coffee and donuts."

I do expect Green to intervene, but only after the party fails. The shape of that failure could be other than a TPK, but a TPK at this time would allow Team Evil to go back to business as usual while the Order learns, grows, and prepares for the next fight at the end of the book.

And anything short of a TPK leaves Team Evil hunting for them.

I doubt a TPK is incoming. As Elan points out, it doesn't feel like a moment for a climactic battle. And if it were setting up a false climax that would lead to a major moment of loss from which the party must recover, then I think the Giant would at least try to make it feel climactic, so it would feel all the more shocking to the reader when the party is defeated.


As for what saves them, I would assume it has something to do with this trap. I feel it's notable that the dialogue specifically states that the trap will be disabled to allow the Order through, but will reactivate before Team Evil arrives.

My bet would be that the trap activates some sort of teleportation or dimensional portal or magic-thingamob so the corridor will lead to somewhere else if you trip the trap. Perhaps it randomizes the linked destination, so the same door will lead to a different place each time you go through, so the systematic approach is entirely useless. Or maybe it leads to a whole other location entirely, far away from the Gate.

Obviously, it wouldn't work on every group of intruders, if they happened to have a rogue with them - but it'd be a helluva first-line defense mechanism that could utterly stymie any attempts to get at the Gate without the intruders even being aware of the deception.

In any case, the Order and Team Evil will end up in different locations, and the story will advance from there.

[Goblin_Priest]

While I guess that scene was a bit contrived fight wise, I thought it was really cool that despite being able to go through memories at the speed of thought he was still paralyzed by that moment. Because it doesn't matter how much he went over that memory, he would still lack any sort of living experience to properly deal with that, the only way to really come to terms with it he had to experience every single memory Durkon had it since. The fact that he actually stopped for several rounds, made me think that he was just playing that memory on loop just constantly, to a degree where even in relative time he couldn't shake off the traumatic shock of it all.

We don't see any evidence of him ever looping memories, though, and every depiction of the memory thing states it works at the speed of thought and is unable to distract him. In fact, I think it was stated pretty clearly that this memory was going to be played in one run, without pauses or skips, and every panel about it seems to suggest it to be so.


Neither Durkon nor Vaarsuvius has ever been mind-controlled. So...who are these Clearly Other Characters?

We don't see them fail, true, we don't see them succeed either. Belkar fails in this fight, he also fails at the pyramid, and fails every time on the Mechane, that we could see. Haley failed. Elan failed. Most egregious of all, Hylgia failed. And presumably failed twice, even with a bonus, by handing her baby over as meatshield. Whereas Roy broke it off in the fight at the Godsmoot because... Durkula was being hyperbolic?

[Yirggzmb]

and every depiction of the memory thing states it works at the speed of thought and is unable to distract him

I could see argument that some of that was Durkula being overly sure of himself. I've certainly had a memory pop up "at the speed of thought", but then get utterly distracted by it for the next several minutes or whatever. I'd also argue that "speed of thought" is inherently variable - An idea or memory popping up is a different timescale (more or less instant) than then mulling over the idea or memory (effectively real time).



Most egregious of all, Hylgia failed. And presumably failed twice, even with a bonus, by handing her baby over as meatshield.

Might depend on how the command was formatted. She clearly didn't have a real problem letting Durkon hold the baby later, so "The baby's father would like to hold him" could have been effective and not trigger a save.

[ebarde]

One memory did make him confused though, which showed he could very well be affected by them. Difference is that none of the memories he saw before that point had enough context or emotional weight to be traumatic, just because he can experience a memory in a very short period of time doesn't mean that he can proccess and cope with it any faster. Especially if he doesn't have much emotional intelligence to rely on.

[brian 333]

@Morty:
Sorry, I missed your post behind the other, more important discussion.

I don't think a TPK is the only, or even the probable direction the comic is headed. I think that this is a thematically and dramatically good time for it. There are allies and potential allies on hand to reset the clock, so to speak, and a TPK will allow Team Evil to go back to business as usual rather than to devote time and resources to hunting down the missing dwarves.

Having reread my post, it does appear, if one has missed or forgotten my OP, that I posed it as the only option. My apologies. My intent was to make it clear that I am not interested in discussing the event from the previous book, but would like to discuss the current situation.

For example, it never occurred to me that bypassing the trap might take the party to a different destination. This is an awesome possible outcome.

[woweedd]

The answer is because it's pretty clear at this point that Will Saves in this comic, in addition to being like all saves dictated by plot needs, are dictated not by class but, mostly, by person. Yes, Elan, mechanically, should have a better Will save then Roy, but, this isn't a game, it's a story. And, in narrative terms, Roy is a strong-willed leader, while Elan is an idiot, who knows full well he is one, and, thus, prefers to let others do his thinking. Viewed from that standpoint, it makes perfect sense that Roy would fight off mind-control, and Elan wouldn't.

[Goblin_Priest]

Might depend on how the command was formatted. She clearly didn't have a real problem letting Durkon hold the baby later, so "The baby's father would like to hold him" could have been effective and not trigger a save.

Durkon didn't have big swords thrown constantly in his direction at that moment. And Hylgia had made it plenty clear she thought that she was the only safe place for her baby to be, in the face of danger.

[Doug Lampert]

Might depend on how the command was formatted. She clearly didn't have a real problem letting Durkon hold the baby later, so "The baby's father would like to hold him" could have been effective and not trigger a save.

All true, but since Goblin_Priest doesn't believe that, don't issue a command at all. Just reach out and take the baby.

Because the ONLY things that gives a new saving throw are no orders for a full day and an order against her basic nature.

The only command is "Come stand here". That doesn't give a save. Then Hilgya does NOTHING when Greg takes Kudzu because once she accepts the command to come here (which is where she was trying to go), she does that "to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth)."

Holding onto Kudzu is not necessary for day to day survival. Resisting when Greg takes Kudzu isn't neccessary for day to day survival. It's just a thing she'd want to do. No second save. No reason for a second save. No resistance, because she doesn't do that while under orders.

She'd stand there and let Greg kill her, that's within a dominate. She'll stand there and let him hold the baby too.

[Goblin_Priest]

All true, but since Goblin_Priest doesn't believe that, don't issue a command at all. Just reach out and take the baby.

Because the ONLY things that gives a new saving throw are no orders for a full day and an order against her basic nature.

The only command is "Come stand here". That doesn't give a save. Then Hilgya does NOTHING when Greg takes Kudzu because once she accepts the command to come here (which is where she was trying to go), she does that "to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth)."

Holding onto Kudzu is not necessary for day to day survival. Resisting when Greg takes Kudzu isn't neccessary for day to day survival. It's just a thing she'd want to do. No second save. No reason for a second save. No resistance, because she doesn't do that while under orders.

She'd stand there and let Greg kill her, that's within a dominate. She'll stand there and let him hold the baby too.

Let's be clear, here, while I'm not found of how that battle was handled, it's still better story telling than anything JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson did with Star Wars.

I'm nitpicking about things that I don't feel super strongly about. I'm pretty firm in my position, but I don't think it's the worst sin ever.

But to go back to the nitpicking, because that's what we do, Roy broke the domination when Durkula merely taunted him. Spell mechanics need to work consistently. If Roy got a new save for that, it seems silly to me to say that Hilgia didn't get a new save for putting her baby in harm's way.

[DBear]

Come on, has everyone forgotten that we already had a TPK by Redcloak on Team Peregrine? Not happening to the Order.

[woweedd]

Let's be clear, here, while I'm not found of how that battle was handled, it's still better story telling than anything JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson did with Star Wars.

I'm nitpicking about things that I don't feel super strongly about. I'm pretty firm in my position, but I don't think it's the worst sin ever.

But to go back to the nitpicking, because that's what we do, Roy broke the domination when Durkula merely taunted him. Spell mechanics need to work consistently. If Roy got a new save for that, it seems silly to me to say that Hilgia didn't get a new save for putting her baby in harm's way.
No, in that case, Drakula gave him an order, namely, "give up".

[Metastachydium]

No, in that case, Drakula gave him an order, namely, "give up".

…which was probably a hard sell when Roy realised the bearded giant dwarflike creature is not, in fact, Durkon but rather an Evil creature who probably destroyed his best friend.
Personally, I would argue that not avenging Durkon would very much be against Roy's nature, and Greg's order conflicted with that.

[Kardwill]

I disagree. The only one with Xs in her eyes was Hilgya. So long as the party HP pool is greater than 0 it's not a TPK.

Even by your narrow definition, 0 HP does not mean "immediately dead", but "down and potentially dying". Been this way for several editions in D&D. So "party HP pool at 0" and "only a few dead characters" are not mutually exclusive.

But even without going into pure D&D rule details, the ways I heard TPK used were either "Entire party out of the fight", or "Party wiped out, the players have to create new characters". "Entire party has to be dead, but will come back after a resurection" feels like a weird in-between. I mean, what's the difference between "everyone is knocked out, and will come to their sense later" and "everyone is dead, and will be resurected later"? Apart from the fact the second proposition feels even more contrived than the first and cheapens character death, they're functionally the same.

[Goblin_Priest]

Even by your narrow definition, 0 HP does not mean "immediately dead", but "down and potentially dying". Been this way for several editions in D&D. So "party HP pool at 0" and "only a few dead characters" are not mutually exclusive.

But even without going into pure D&D rule details, the ways I heard TPK used were either "Entire party out of the fight", or "Party wiped out, the players have to create new characters". "Entire party has to be dead, but will come back after a resurection" feels like a weird in-between. I mean, what's the difference between "everyone is knocked out, and will come to their sense later" and "everyone is dead, and will be resurected later"? Apart from the fact the second proposition feels even more contrived than the first and cheapens character death, they're functionally the same.

It's easier to kill a whole party than to knock them all out without killing any of them.

I had once given my party rejuvenation, without telling them. I don't know if that was a good or a bad idea, none of them died afterwards before we ended the campaign. I hate being forced to roll a new character just because of bad luck (scythe crit), and I hate causing that on others. The idea was to find a compromise between "immortal so can't lose battles" and "fragile and a single slip will force me to make a new character", especially since the story was very character-centric (had many long-panning arcs planned out) and those characters had accomplished unique feats in the game world, being blessed by a primal deity).

[Kardwill]

It's easier to kill a whole party than to knock them all out without killing any of them.


With D&D, yeah. But "a few dead PCs, and the rest knocked out" (meaning at 0HP, but not dead yet) is a common result. Especially in D&D5, where you have a fair chance of stabilizing on your own if the bad guys don't try to finish you off.

With other games, "everybody out of the fight, but not necessarily dead when they hit 0HP" can be the default. Fate, for example. I like those : They mean that defeat doesn't have to mean "start a new campaign" ^^

[Goblin_Priest]

With D&D, yeah. But "a few dead PCs, and the rest knocked out" (meaning at 0HP, but not dead yet) is a common result. Especially in D&D5, where you have a fair chance of stabilizing on your own if the bad guys don't try to finish you off.

With other games, "everybody out of the fight, but not necessarily dead when they hit 0HP" can be the default. Fate, for example. I like those : They mean that defeat doesn't have to mean "start a new campaign" ^^

Well, by default, awe can assume all rules talk here to be D&D 3.5-relevant. ;)

[brian 333]

I think The Giant has rendered this thread moot,
and the poster suggesting that bypassing the trap actually leads to another room is looking to have the correct answer. We shall see soon.

Some questions remain unanswered. Two stand out at this time:

How does OotS evade TE's pursuit? This is far too early in the book for the final confrontation and now that they are on the track. I don't forsee TE just giving up the chase and letting the dwarves leave.

If the OotS does have a shortcut to the gate, how are they going to avoid leading TE there?

[RatElemental]

I think The Giant has rendered this thread moot,
and the poster suggesting that bypassing the trap actually leads to another room is looking to have the correct answer. We shall see soon.

Some questions remain unanswered. Two stand out at this time:

How does OotS evade TE's pursuit? This is far too early in the book for the final confrontation and now that they are on the track. I don't forsee TE just giving up the chase and letting the dwarves leave.

If the OotS does have a shortcut to the gate, how are they going to avoid leading TE there?

I'm thinking Oona tracks the party into the door they went in because Belkar didn't finish with the tracks, and then TE goes to the "normal" instance of the dungeon. The party see them disappear before their very eyes and use that chance to escape. Or TE sees the party, party flees, TE crosses the runes and are sent to another dungeon, while the OotS are "chased" into a meeting with the mysterious ally the giant referenced last book.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm thinking Oona tracks the party into the door they went in because Belkar didn't finish with the tracks, and then TE goes to the "normal" instance of the dungeon. The party see them disappear before their very eyes and use that chance to escape. Or TE sees the party, party flees, TE crosses the runes and are sent to another dungeon, while the OotS are "chased" into a meeting with the mysterious ally the giant referenced last book. I like this hypothesis, and will drop a quataloo wager on this being the serial to what we are seeing now. :smallcool:

[Dion]

I’m going to go totally off topic and reply to the original comment: was Leeroy Jenkins really a TPK?

I thought it was just one mook running into battle while everyone else watched him get shredded? Like if Elan charged into battle against the Death Wyrm while the rest of the team watched in disbelief?

[RatElemental]

I’m going to go totally off topic and reply to the original comment: was Leeroy Jenkins really a TPK?

I thought it was just one mook running into battle while everyone else watched him get shredded? Like if Elan charged into battle against the Death Wyrm while the rest of the team watched in disbelief?

In the scenario of the eponymous Leeroy Jenkins, the rest of his party tried to salvage the situation by charging in after him and trying to follow their plan, and they all died.

[KorvinStarmast]

In the scenario of the eponymous Leeroy Jenkins, the rest of his party tried to salvage the situation by charging in after him and trying to follow their plan, and they all died. It was glorious, and at least someone got chicken.