Does Steady Aim make Versatile Trickster pretty pointless?

[nickl_2000]

So Steady Aim from Tasha's, you can use a bonus action and not move to get advantage. Or Versatile Trickster where you can use a bonus action of a pre-existing Mage Hand to get advantage against something within 5 feet of it.


Seems like there is even less reason to use Versatile Trickster than there was before, or am I missing something?

[JackPhoenix]

Well, Versatile Trickster doesn't prevent you from moving and works with multiple attacks.

[stoutstien]

The whole mage hand in combat angle is pretty bad to begin with for AT. The utility potential for it is awesome but action wise it's a joke. even then steady aim still has the movement cost which isn't something to overlook.

[x3n0n]

So Steady Aim from Tasha's, you can use a bonus action and not move to get advantage. Or Versatile Trickster where you can use a bonus action of a pre-existing Mage Hand to get advantage against something within 5 feet of it.

Seems like there is even less reason to use Versatile Trickster than there was before, or am I missing something?

Yes, Careful Aim can be used in some of the situations in which you could have used Versatile Trickster.

Typical ways to get advantage:
* Cunning Action Hide: need cover and a Stealth roll, potential DM issues, offers defense as well
* Ally (probably owl familiar) Help: great action economy and range, vulnerable familiar, "cheesy" according to some
* Versatile Trickster: 30' range, needs pre-cast Mage Hand
* Careful Aim: can't move, including getting up from prone, positioning for cover purposes, or getting into melee.

Any other obvious ones?

[JackPhoenix]

Careful Aim: can't move, including getting up from prone, positioning for cover purposes, or getting into melee.

You can get up from prone before you use Steady Aim. It doesn't count as movement, despite using up your movement allowance for the turn. Your speed is 0 afterwards, but you shouldn't be prone by then anyway.

[x3n0n]

You can get up from prone before you use Steady Aim. It doesn't count as movement, despite using up your movement allowance for the turn. Your speed is 0 afterwards, but you shouldn't be prone by then anyway.

That works for me, and means that "stand up, careful aim, attack, drop prone" becomes a pretty nice attack routine at range.

[JackPhoenix]

That works for me, and means that "stand up, careful aim, attack, drop prone" becomes a pretty nice attack routine at range.

It's not that different from the usual "pop from cover, shoot from hiding, back into cover, hide as bonus action" tactic rogues have been doing for years.

[Greywander]

That works for me, and means that "stand up, careful aim, attack, drop prone" becomes a pretty nice attack routine at range.
Why stand up? If you're making ranged attacks, there's no penalty for attacking from prone, IIRC. And if you're making melee attacks, well, you don't want to be prone in melee.

[x3n0n]

Why stand up? If you're making ranged attacks, there's no penalty for attacking from prone, IIRC. And if you're making melee attacks, well, you don't want to be prone in melee.


FWIW, it really does matter:


Prone
* A prone creature's only movement option is to crawl, unless it stands up and thereby ends the condition.
* The creature has disadvantage on attack rolls.
* An attack roll against the creature has advantage if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature. Otherwise, the attack roll has disadvantage.


The difference for ranged is only for incoming. (It definitely feels a little weird given our modern concept of a sniper, but makes sense for a bow or sling, if not a crossbow.)

[Greywander]

Ah, I stand corrected. Nevermind then.

[Tanarii]

Or Versatile Trickster where you can use a bonus action of a pre-existing Mage Hand to get advantage against something within 5 feet of it.
That feature was already close to pointless. The likelihood an AT will waste an action to cast MH in combat is very low. You have to know combat is coming in the next thirty seconds or so and be willing to reveal yourself to the enemy to get it in before combat.

[Segev]

That feature was already close to pointless. The likelihood an AT will waste an action to cast MH in combat is very low. You have to know combat is coming in the next thirty seconds or so and be willing to reveal yourself to the enemy to get it in before combat.

I question the "...be willing to reveal yourself to the enemy..." part. If you're Hidden, nothing about casting a spell that doesn't target anybody automatically breaks Stealth. You could certainly allow a reflexive Wisdom(Perception) check from all the monsters to see if the vocalization was unusual/loud enough to let them overcome it, but it isn't a guarantee. You are only guaranteed to break Stealth if you attack something.

It's one reason the Arcane Trickster doesn't "need" the Telekinetic feat to be viable, even though that feat is tempting for anybody who really likes their mage hand spells. Yes, it certainly helps - more range and silent, undetectable casting - but a rogue is going to have options to get out of sight and cast their invisible mage hand undetected, anyway.

An Arcane Trickster will be perfectly capable of scouting out a combat situation, casting mage hand while hiding, and alerting his party to the enemies' presence either with some sort of mage hand-enabled object interaction or with message or something.

[Gignere]

That feature was already close to pointless. The likelihood an AT will waste an action to cast MH in combat is very low. You have to know combat is coming in the next thirty seconds or so and be willing to reveal yourself to the enemy to get it in before combat.

Nah cast mage hand bonus action sleight of hand to steal arcane/holy/Druidic/ focuses or spell component pouch is worth an action. But yeah versatile trickster is worthless.

[Tanarii]

I question the "...be willing to reveal yourself to the enemy..." part. If you're Hidden, nothing about casting a spell that doesn't target anybody automatically breaks Stealth. You could certainly allow a reflexive Wisdom(Perception) check from all the monsters to see if the vocalization was unusual/loud enough to let them overcome it, but it isn't a guarantee. You are only guaranteed to break Stealth if you attack something.
Fair. If you're far enough away they might not hear you. If you're willing to blow some of the duration to move into ambush range (or whatever range you want to start combat within if not ambushing) it's possible to pull off.

But it's certainly not worth assuming it will be available. OTOH if there's no other way to get advantage (or adjacent allies) in a fight, it could be worth the action in combat.

[Segev]

Fair. If you're far enough away they might not hear you. If you're willing to blow some of the duration to move into ambush range (or whatever range you want to start combat within if not ambushing) it's possible to pull off.

But it's certainly not worth assuming it will be available. OTOH if there's no other way to get advantage (or adjacent allies) in a fight, it could be worth the action in combat.

Yeah, it's not a very promising ability even if you can have mage hand up and running. You're almost certainly better off entering the fight already Hiding, and then bonus-action Hiding after you attack.

[Morty]

Kind of feels like Steady Aim would obsolete more than one archer rogue strategy, since you can often stay put and just make one attack with advantage after another. Only relocating when enemies come into melee with you or targets aren't in range (and Sharpshooter helps with the second part).

[EggKookoo]

You can get up from prone before you use Steady Aim. It doesn't count as movement, despite using up your movement allowance for the turn.

Wait, is that true? Getting up from prone costs half your movement but doesn't count as "moving?"

[nickl_2000]

Wait, is that true? Getting up from prone costs half your movement but doesn't count as "moving?"

According to this standing from prone doesn't trigger Booming Blade, so it shouldn't count for this either.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/09/booming-blade-stand-up/

[elyktsorb]

According to this standing from prone doesn't trigger Booming Blade, so it shouldn't count for this either.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/09/booming-blade-stand-up/

To be fair, getting up from being prone just halves your movement speed, it doesn't spend your movement speed. And likewise I don't think you going prone counts as moving either, just as going prone.

I just like Steady Aim since it gets rid of the whole 'hide as a bonus action every turn thing' especially since dm's have to keep track of your ever changing stealth score and then you always have to ask 'well do I have advantage from hiding last turn or not?'

[Tanarii]

To be fair, getting up from being prone just halves your movement speed, it doesn't spend your movement speed. And likewise I don't think you going prone counts as moving either, just as going prone.standing up uses movement.

They really should have any feature that requires movement (or a lack of it) to trigger specify "move 1ft or more from your current position" or something like that, if that's what they mean.

[PhoenixPhyre]

standing up uses movement.

They really should have any feature that requires movement (or a lack of it) to trigger specify "move 1ft or more from your current position" or something like that, if that's what they mean.

That's something I noticed about the BB reprint. I does specify that the extra damage happens when the target willingly moves 5' or more.

[MaxWilson]

To be fair, getting up from being prone just halves your movement speed, it doesn't spend your movement speed.

That isn't right.

You can drop prone without using any of your speed. Standing up takes more effort; doing so costs an amount of movement equal to half your speed. For example, if your speed is 30 feet, you must spend 15 feet of movement to stand up. You can’t stand up if you don’t have enough movement left or if your speed is 0.

If you have 30' movement and you stand up and then Dash, you have 60' of movement and you spent 15' on standing up, so you move 45'. If standing up halved your speed, you would only move 30' instead. They're different.

[Segev]

That isn't right.

You can drop prone without using any of your speed. Standing up takes more effort; doing so costs an amount of movement equal to half your speed. For example, if your speed is 30 feet, you must spend 15 feet of movement to stand up. You can’t stand up if you don’t have enough movement left or if your speed is 0.

If you have 30' movement and you stand up and then Dash, you have 60' of movement and you spent 15' on standing up, so you move 45'. If standing up halved your speed, you would only move 30' instead. They're different.

There's also the interesting discussion to be had over whether having 0 movement means you can stand up from prone by spending half of 0 (i.e. 0), or means you can't stand up from prone.

[Gignere]

There's also the interesting discussion to be had over whether having 0 movement means you can stand up from prone by spending half of 0 (i.e. 0), or means you can't stand up from prone.

I thought the consensus was that 0 movement prevented one from standing up, that’s the basis of a lot of grapplers build. Push prone and grapple now with 0 movement they can’t stand up.

[Segev]

I thought the consensus was that 0 movement prevented one from standing up, that’s the basis of a lot of grapplers build. Push prone and grapple now with 0 movement they can’t stand up.

I've heard that argument, and I like it (as a person about to play a grappler), but I don't recall the rationale.

[Amechra]

Umm... there's a specific exception for having a movement speed of 0 in the "standing from prone" rules. It's in the first paragraph of page 191, as well as the rules that MaxWilson quoted.

[Segev]

Umm... there's a specific exception for having a movement speed of 0 in the "standing from prone" rules. It's in the first paragraph of page 191, as well as the rules that MaxWilson quoted.

::smacks forehead::

Apparently I'm blind. Ignore me.

[iTreeby]

From how it's worded, it seems like steady aim combos well with manifest echo. It is really good for reducing the overlap between cunning action and manifest echo's movement. Obviously it doesn't work on the turn the echo is manifested but it's the kind of ability that you should have up anyway.