Weather CR0?

[PraxisVetli]

So I don't know about most DM's, but every table I've ever played at, weather was rarely more complex than "Sunny", "Cloudy", or "Nighttime." Now I'm running a campaign, and trying to make it matter, at least a little. I was pretty surprised at how complex weather actually is in dnd, with things like temperature bands, and different wind strengths and all that. I'd just really never cared to look at it, you know? How much could it really matter?
Of course, then I made my players try to steer a ship in a hurricane, and uh, it mattered! But according to the DMG, unless it's at least a Tornado, they get no XP for it, at least RAW. Not only that, but if it is a Tornado, it's CR 10. How does it go from 0-10?
The three environmental supplements didn't provide much help either!
EDIT: Duststorms are CR 3.
Even Supernatural Hazards don't provide a CR, Sandstorm's Devil Dunes, indestructible 60' speed opponent that doesn't need rest is apparently just a default thing? That they get no xp for solving/surviving?
Has anyone else dealt with this, and found a solution?

Obviously, if they have trouble but prevail, give them xp. I know that. But I was hoping there would be some sort of way to identify how much trouble I can expect them to have, before doing it. Eyeballing it is fine, but I hoped for something.. consistent?
inb4 CR system ≠ consistent

[Crake]

Weather rarely on it's own provides a significant enough challenge to warrant having a CR, but you could use it to justify an ad-hoc adjustment to an encounter.

[PraxisVetli]

Weather rarely on it's own provides a significant enough challenge to warrant having a CR, but you could use it to justify an ad-hoc adjustment to an encounter.
Yet manifesting a Blizzard is a 4th level spell, and that only lasts rounds, minutes at best, and a full blizzard is 1d3 days. Doesn't that seem odd? If there was a creature who could do this, would it not affect an encounter? Or would a magic item that could do this not affect the players' strength?
Yes, it could be an ad-hoc extra challenge, but why is "traverse 50 miles to the next village in this blizzard" not worth anything, since "travers 50 miles in the warm sunshine" is also worth nothing?
Is there really no significant difference?


For clarity, a Blizzard presents:


Wind: Fort DC 18 vs:
Small or smaller Blown away
Medium Knocked down
Large or Huge Checked
Gargantuan or Colossal None

Snow:
Visibility by ½; -4 to Spot, -8 to Listen specific
Ranged siege attacks at -4 penalty, regular are impossible
4x movement penalty
10% chance of Lightning
No visibility past 5', so creatures >5' get concealment (20% Miss Chance)

And also causes Whiteout:


Whiteout conditions occur in snowstorms or blizzards
accompanied by a strong or stronger wind force. However,
it doesn’t have to be precipitating to create whiteout conditions.
Snow fields buffeted by severe or stronger winds can
also cause creatures to experience a whiteout.
Characters in whiteout conditions take a –2 penalty to
AC, lose any Dexterity bonus to AC, move at half speed, and
take a –4 penalty on Dexterity-based skill checks, as well as
Search, Spot, and any other checks that rely on vision. The
character also gains total concealment (50% miss chance).
These effects end when the character leaves the area of
whiteout. Whiteout conditions stack with wind and snowfall.
Visibility is 5 feet.

[Seto]

So, from what I'm reading, the Blizzard is not a challenge, because it carries no consequences. It is unfailable, and doesn't drain any resources. It doesn't cause damage, etc. The only thing that could justify it being an encounter in itself, is the need for Fort saves to progress at all. Indeed that could be a skill challenge (Survival to find a clever way to anchor yourself in the ground?).
But ultimately, if you try to play up the Blizzard as a RAW mechanical challenge, I don't see it being interesting. Either your players have a way to bypass the Fort saves, and they can progress, or they don't and they keep getting blown back until they get enough good rolls in a row. Since there's no consequence for failing and nothing preventing them from attempting it indefinitely, it's better to just spend one minute on roleplaying the thing, rather than an infinite series of dice rolls without anything at stake.

What the Blizzard is, however, is an incredibly brutal debuff. Notice how, with the exception of the Fort save, everything it gives you is penalties to combat/perception etc.? Meaning the Blizzard is best used in conjunction with something else that causes actual danger and consequences (and the Blizzard should increase the CR, in this case). A monster attacking you in blizzard? That's interesting. Trying to steer a ship that might crash or sink, as you described? Interesting. Just going to a town 50 miles away? Not so much.

That's my answer based on the mechanics as-written, but of course you are right that crossing a blizzard could and should be a challenge worth XP in itself. But that won't work with the blizzard as-written. You'd need to add home-brewed consequences and stakes: cold damage, risk of getting buried under snow, risk of the party getting split up and lost in dangerous places...

[Falontani]

Yet manifesting a Blizzard is a 4th level spell, and that only lasts rounds, minutes at best, and a full blizzard is 1d3 days. Doesn't that seem odd? If there was a creature who could do this, would it not affect an encounter? Or would a magic item that could do this not affect the players' strength?
Yes, it could be an ad-hoc extra challenge, but why is "traverse 50 miles to the next village in this blizzard" not worth anything, since "travers 50 miles in the warm sunshine" is also worth nothing?
Is there really no significant difference?


For clarity, a Blizzard presents:

And also causes Whiteout:

Don't forget the following:

Blizzard: Increase the DC to avoid becoming lost by 6. Whiteout: Increase the DC to avoid becoming lost by 10. Yes they are separate stacking increases to the DC. Meaning in the mountains during a Blizzard+Whiteout (relatively best chance in most cold environment) you have a DC 28 survival check to not get lost per hour. If they do get lost, then for every hour they are lost in this blizzard+whiteout they need to make an increasingly difficult DC 31 +2/hour they've been lost survival check. Most non druids or non rangers aren't finding their way.

Next up we have the cold. For a blizzard to exist nonmagically, you require a temperature of at least the Cold temperature band, from 0 to 40 F or from 4 to -18 C. The Windspeed of a blizzard decreases the effective temperature band to at least Severe Cold -18 to -29 C. This requires con checks every 10 minutes unless you have magical aid, or a good amount of mundane aid. Failure indicates you will start getting hypothermia, which is fatigue, exhausted, and then disabled. In as little as a half hour the Elf Wizard in robes is going to be disabled.

[PraxisVetli]

So, from what I'm reading, the Blizzard is not a challenge, because it carries no consequences. It is unfailable, and doesn't drain any resources. It doesn't cause damage, etc. The only thing that could justify it being an encounter in itself, is the need for Fort saves to progress at all. Indeed that could be a skill challenge (Survival to find a clever way to anchor yourself in the ground?).
But ultimately, if you try to play up the Blizzard as a RAW mechanical challenge, I don't see it being interesting. Either your players have a way to bypass the Fort saves, and they can progress, or they don't and they keep getting blown back until they get enough good rolls in a row. Since there's no consequence for failing and nothing preventing them from attempting it indefinitely, it's better to just spend one minute on roleplaying the thing, rather than an infinite series of dice rolls without anything at stake.

What the Blizzard is, however, is an incredibly brutal debuff. Notice how, with the exception of the Fort save, everything it gives you is penalties to combat/perception etc.? Meaning the Blizzard is best used in conjunction with something else that causes actual danger and consequences (and the Blizzard should increase the CR, in this case). A monster attacking you in blizzard? That's interesting. Trying to steer a ship that might crash or sink, as you described? Interesting. Just going to a town 50 miles away? Not so much.

That's my answer based on the mechanics as-written, but of course you are right that crossing a blizzard could and should be a challenge worth XP in itself. But that won't work with the blizzard as-written. You'd need to add home-brewed consequences and stakes: cold damage, risk of getting buried under snow, risk of the party getting split up and lost in dangerous places...
This makes a lot of sense, actually, so thank you.
Though on the note of home-brewed consequences, the cold is already a thing, thanks to the weather bands, assuming the players lack protection. Really depends if they see the blizzard coming. Getting buried, maybe if they're asleep, unsheltered? But that's kinda their fault, I think. Getting lost, well, if visibility is 5', and someone loses sight of whoever has the Survival ranks that's been keeping them headed in the right direction, well, then they're rolling on their own. And as Falontani points out:

Don't forget the following:

Blizzard: Increase the DC to avoid becoming lost by 6. Whiteout: Increase the DC to avoid becoming lost by 10. Yes they are separate stacking increases to the DC. Meaning in the mountains during a Blizzard+Whiteout (relatively best chance in most cold environment) you have a DC 28 survival check to not get lost per hour. If they do get lost, then for every hour they are lost in this blizzard+whiteout they need to make an increasingly difficult DC 31 +2/hour they've been lost survival check. Most non druids or non rangers aren't finding their way.

Next up we have the cold. For a blizzard to exist nonmagically, you require a temperature of at least the Cold temperature band, from 0 to 40 F or from 4 to -18 C. The Windspeed of a blizzard decreases the effective temperature band to at least Severe Cold -18 to -29 C. This requires con checks every 10 minutes unless you have magical aid, or a good amount of mundane aid. Failure indicates you will start getting hypothermia, which is fatigue, exhausted, and then disabled. In as little as a half hour the Elf Wizard in robes is going to be disabled.
I somehow missed the stacking penalty to Survival, but did catch the temperature band change. Thanks!


OK, but really guys.
This is all well and good, for the Blizzard.
But can we please talk about the predatory sand dune??
What is THAT about??

[Crake]

Next up we have the cold. For a blizzard to exist nonmagically, you require a temperature of at least the Cold temperature band, from 0 to 40 F or from 4 to -18 C. The Windspeed of a blizzard decreases the effective temperature band to at least Severe Cold -18 to -29 C. This requires con checks every 10 minutes unless you have magical aid, or a good amount of mundane aid. Failure indicates you will start getting hypothermia, which is fatigue, exhausted, and then disabled. In as little as a half hour the Elf Wizard in robes is going to be disabled.

Endure elements handles severe cold like a champ, a level 1 spell, keep that in mind. With frostburn, and the introduction of a cold band beyond severe cold, unearthly cold, you can get around with just endure elementals and some furs...

That being said, even without endure elements, an improvised shelter gives you the same protection vs the cold as endure elements does, so even an inexperienced group could bunker down, put on some warm clothes, and just aim to wait out the blizzard. Also keep in mind that it's a mere DC15 survival check to predict the weather 24 hours in advance, so most groups shouldn't be caught completely off guard by an incoming blizzard, as, even with a +0 modifier on everyone in the group, odds are SOMEONE's gonna beat DC15.

[Falontani]

Endure elements handles severe cold like a champ, a level 1 spell, keep that in mind. With frostburn, and the introduction of a cold band beyond severe cold, unearthly cold, you can get around with just endure elementals and some furs...

That being said, even without endure elements, an improvised shelter gives you the same protection vs the cold as endure elements does, so even an inexperienced group could bunker down, put on some warm clothes, and just aim to wait out the blizzard. Also keep in mind that it's a mere DC15 survival check to predict the weather 24 hours in advance, so most groups shouldn't be caught completely off guard by an incoming blizzard, as, even with a +0 modifier on everyone in the group, odds are SOMEONE's gonna beat DC15.

Isn't weather prediction a specific action that people can take, or does everyone with view of the sky just kind of roll that unconsciously?

[Zaq]

Isn't weather prediction a specific action that people can take, or does everyone with view of the sky just kind of roll that unconsciously?

Yeah, it's a Survival check. DC 15 to accurately predict the weather 24 hours in advance, plus one day for every 5 points by which you beat 15.

I got nothing on the devil dunes, though. I don't think it was necessarily an intent for them to say "no CR = no challenge and therefore no XP." But you're right that by RAW you've got nothing beyond ad-hoc.

Of course, the fact that it takes high-level magic to "beat" it fully makes it seem like it's supposed to be a "low-level adventurers better not go out into the waste" plot wall rather than an actual challenge to overcome, but that's just an interpretation and not the only way to read things...

[Doctor Despair]

Well, if a CR-appropriate encounter is supposed to take 25% of your daily resources to navigate, and Endure Elements is a first level spell, I suppose you could treat inclement weather as an encounter based on that ratio. A typical party has four members, so that means four castings of a first level spell.

Wizards, clerics, and druids start with 1 level 1 spell slot, but sorcerers have 3, not accounting for ACFs and specialties and whatnot. If we toss each of these folks a bonus spell slot for their attribute, that's 2 and 4 respectively. If a party has some combination of two prepared casters or one spontaneous caster, they could navigate the encounter at level 1, but that would use all of their level 1 spells. The other two or three party members aren't doing anything, so we should account for that, too. If the sorcerer uses all their spell slots to solve the encounter, that would technically be CR1, right? Likewise, if the prepared casters used 50% each of their level 1 spells, that would be CR1. However, that would consume all the prepared caster's spell slots, so the math doesn't work out unless they have a sorcerer specifically (and one who took Endure Elements at that!)

At level 2, prepared casters have 3 level 1 spells (accounting for attributes). While there will be different party compositions, again, assuming they can muster up two prepared casters, that's 66% of their level 1 spells accounted for, but leaves level 0s untouched, as well. That's arguably 50% of the prepared caster's resources for the day, and that should be 25% of the party's total resources.

Based on that, a storm that requires Endure Elements to survive would probably be CR2 then, right?

[noob]

Well, if a CR-appropriate encounter is supposed to take 25% of your daily resources to navigate, and Endure Elements is a first level spell, I suppose you could treat inclement weather as an encounter based on that ratio. A typical party has four members, so that means four castings of a first level spell.

Wizards, clerics, and druids start with 1 level 1 spell slot, but sorcerers have 3, not accounting for ACFs and specialties and whatnot. If we toss each of these folks a bonus spell slot for their attribute, that's 2 and 4 respectively. If a party has some combination of two prepared casters or one spontaneous caster, they could navigate the encounter at level 1, but that would use all of their level 1 spells. The other two or three party members aren't doing anything, so we should account for that, too. If the sorcerer uses all their spell slots to solve the encounter, that would technically be CR1, right? Likewise, if the prepared casters used 50% each of their level 1 spells, that would be CR1. However, that would consume all the prepared caster's spell slots, so the math doesn't work out unless they have a sorcerer specifically (and one who took Endure Elements at that!)

At level 2, prepared casters have 3 level 1 spells (accounting for attributes). While there will be different party compositions, again, assuming they can muster up two prepared casters, that's 66% of their level 1 spells accounted for, but leaves level 0s untouched, as well. That's arguably 50% of the prepared caster's resources for the day, and that should be 25% of the party's total resources.

Based on that, a storm that requires Endure Elements to survive would probably be CR2 then, right?

Failure is not necessarily death.
For example if you lost two days navigating the storm and did reach the goblin village you needed to save a day too late it means you failed the storm encounter.

[Fouredged Sword]

Weather on it's own as a challenge is best treated as a skill check encounter and has it's DC's determine it's CR accordingly.

But for the most part even really bad weather is going to end up CR 1 or so by itself and even then only in really nasty forms. A CR 1 encounter being rendered moot by 4 level 1 spells is perfectly in line with expectations. Magic missile x4 solves almost any CR 1 combat encounter.

[noob]

Weather on it's own as a challenge is best treated as a skill check encounter and has it's DC's determine it's CR accordingly.

But for the most part even really bad weather is going to end up CR 1 or so by itself and even then only in really nasty forms. A CR 1 encounter being rendered moot by 4 level 1 spells is perfectly in line with expectations. Magic missile x4 solves almost any CR 1 combat encounter.

In the time limit case you need both to survive and to find your way out in time.
Finding your way out in time can need extra checks over just guaranteeing you survive.(or using a compass and knowing the exact position of your destination)

[Doctor Despair]

Weather on it's own as a challenge is best treated as a skill check encounter and has it's DC's determine it's CR accordingly.

But for the most part even really bad weather is going to end up CR 1 or so by itself and even then only in really nasty forms. A CR 1 encounter being rendered moot by 4 level 1 spells is perfectly in line with expectations. Magic missile x4 solves almost any CR 1 combat encounter.

Wouldn't an encounter that requires four level 1 spells be CR2 though, even without the skill check requirements, or time constraints?

[awa]

Environmental conditions that can simply be solved with endure elements should typically not have a CR in my opinion.
endure elements completely negates it for 24 hours with no rolls. A magic missile doesn't kill every orc you meet for the rest of the day.

Even without it, if there is no other threat or time limit you can typically just hunker down in your tent to wait it out without any resources spent.

I personally feel that it should only be worth Xp if it has other factors involved like a time limit or monsters in which case it has some value. But if they just bump into a storm and then take a nap to wait it out or recover from the damage that should not be worth anything.

In the grand scheme of things for environment hazards the dm should look at the situation and simply give ad hoc xp based on the nature of the situation and the associated factors. Your the Dm, CR is a guideline to help you prepare encounters and not a straight jacket. In particular something like this which can be either trivial or deadly depending on the situation is a lousy fit for CR (and a lot of monsters are no better).

The storm could delay the part but so could a failed survival check to increase the parties speed in the wilderness but we wouldn't consider that worth xp and its really not so different.

[noob]

Environmental conditions that can simply be solved with endure elements should typically not have a CR in my opinion.
endure elements completely negates it for 24 hours with no rolls. A magic missile doesn't kill every orc you meet for the rest of the day.

Even without it, if there is no other threat or time limit you can typically just hunker down in your tent to wait it out without any resources spent.

I personally feel that it should only be worth Xp if it has other factors involved like a time limit or monsters in which case it has some value. But if they just bump into a storm and then take a nap to wait it out or recover from the damage that should not be worth anything.

In the grand scheme of things for environment hazards the dm should look at the situation and simply give ad hoc xp based on the nature of the situation and the associated factors. Your the Dm, CR is a guideline to help you prepare encounters and not a straight jacket. In particular something like this which can be either trivial or deadly depending on the situation is a lousy fit for CR (and a lot of monsters are no better).

The storm could delay the part but so could a failed survival check to increase the parties speed in the wilderness but we wouldn't consider that worth xp and its really not so different.

I think a survival check that is needed to meet deadlines should count as an encounter.
If you could have just taken a road and not made any survival check and met the deadlines then there was no skill check encounter.

[Fouredged Sword]

Wouldn't an encounter that requires four level 1 spells be CR2 though, even without the skill check requirements, or time constraints?

A CR 1 encounter is supposed to take 25% of the player's resources for the day for a CR 1 party. With bonus spells, 4 level 1 spells is about what a level 1 wizard will have. For a 4 person party tapping out one of the party members is 25% of their resources. Well, more like 3, but the cleric or druid may also have a spell and the other characters have means of dealing with weather in more mundane manners. And the wizard will have SOME ability to contribute beyond their 1st level spells if nothing more than their cantrips and crossbow, still useful features at level 1.

I could see an argument for especially bad weather in already extreme climates being CR 2 or even 3, but those would be extreme circumstances.

[PraxisVetli]

What if you took away Endure Elements? That seems like the default solution to anything weather based, so if we drop that, and you need to buy fur coats and bring shelter with you, obviously that changes things, but how much?
This seems like one of those Protection from Arrows moments where a single low level spell solves an entire aspect of the game. At least three books dedicated to environments and weather, and a 1st level spell wins. Classic.
So let's ditch the spell. Now how much does it matter?
In an arid, high altitude location with high wind (at least Strong, and Blizzards clock in at Windstorm strength winds, according to pg94 of the DMG), nighttime brings an effective 9th band. This guesstimates to about -170° F, or -112°C. This is certainly extreme, past any Earth precedence. To counter, PC's would need Cold Resistance >5, Armour Insulation/ Cold Weather Outfit and Fur Clothing, and an Improvised Shelter. This brings them down to Cold, so Fort save 15+1/previous, vs 1d6 nonlethal cold, which their Cold Resistance 5 should cover pretty reliably. Until, however, someone eventually takes 6 damage, and the 1 remaining point triggers Frostbite, and then Hypothermia. Just to milk the example for all it's worth, let's assume they fail the 7th save of the evening, and their 8th hour of rest is now a:
Base DC 22
Cold Outfit, +5
Fur Clothing, +5
Fatigued, -2
So figurative DC 14. When can you expect a player to reliably make a DC 19? Con might provide a +2, so the remaining +2 can be provided by 1st level.
I uh.. I guess it still doesn't really matter, does it? Looks like I shouldn't blame Endure Elements, all it did was streamline the process, especially because this roll that a 1st level character could reasonably make is only going to occur under the most brutal circumstances possible, with the sole exception of the Cold Resistance 5.

So what does it all mean? Can I just dump Blizzard after Hurricane after Sandstorm over and over, and expect them to be fine? So it would seem, at least by the numbers, and assuming they thought ahead and bought the proper gear, and can remember to check the skies every morning.
Sorry to be the guy that makes a thread and then proves to himself he's wrong. My only defense is, as I said, I've never seen weather really utilized, so I never thought about it. I suppose now I see why, it's got all sorts of minuses and penalties and rules, but at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter too much. Wild.






Sorry I abandoned thread, it wasn't intentional. Real life got real hectic real fast.

[noob]

What if you took away Endure Elements? That seems like the default solution to anything weather based, so if we drop that, and you need to buy fur coats and bring shelter with you, obviously that changes things, but how much?
This seems like one of those Protection from Arrows moments where a single low level spell solves an entire aspect of the game. At least three books dedicated to environments and weather, and a 1st level spell wins. Classic.
So let's ditch the spell. Now how much does it matter?
In an arid, high altitude location with high wind (at least Strong, and Blizzards clock in at Windstorm strength winds, according to pg94 of the DMG), nighttime brings an effective 9th band. This guesstimates to about -170° F, or -112°C. This is certainly extreme, past any Earth precedence. To counter, PC's would need Cold Resistance >5, Armour Insulation/ Cold Weather Outfit and Fur Clothing, and an Improvised Shelter. This brings them down to Cold, so Fort save 15+1/previous, vs 1d6 nonlethal cold, which their Cold Resistance 5 should cover pretty reliably. Until, however, someone eventually takes 6 damage, and the 1 remaining point triggers Frostbite, and then Hypothermia. Just to milk the example for all it's worth, let's assume they fail the 7th save of the evening, and their 8th hour of rest is now a:
Base DC 22
Cold Outfit, +5
Fur Clothing, +5
Fatigued, -2
So figurative DC 14. When can you expect a player to reliably make a DC 19? Con might provide a +2, so the remaining +2 can be provided by 1st level.
I uh.. I guess it still doesn't really matter, does it? Looks like I shouldn't blame Endure Elements, all it did was streamline the process, especially because this roll that a 1st level character could reasonably make is only going to occur under the most brutal circumstances possible, with the sole exception of the Cold Resistance 5.

So what does it all mean? Can I just dump Blizzard after Hurricane after Sandstorm over and over, and expect them to be fine? So it would seem, at least by the numbers, and assuming they thought ahead and bought the proper gear, and can remember to check the skies every morning.
Sorry to be the guy that makes a thread and then proves to himself he's wrong. My only defense is, as I said, I've never seen weather really utilized, so I never thought about it. I suppose now I see why, it's got all sorts of minuses and penalties and rules, but at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter too much. Wild.






Sorry I abandoned thread, it wasn't intentional. Real life got real hectic real fast.
In some cases sitting a whole day is defeat because it was too much time lost.

[SirNibbles]

What if you took away Endure Elements? That seems like the default solution to anything weather based, so if we drop that, and you need to buy fur coats and bring shelter with you, obviously that changes things, but how much?
This seems like one of those Protection from Arrows moments where a single low level spell solves an entire aspect of the game. At least three books dedicated to environments and weather, and a 1st level spell wins. Classic.
So let's ditch the spell. Now how much does it matter?
In an arid, high altitude location with high wind (at least Strong, and Blizzards clock in at Windstorm strength winds, according to pg94 of the DMG), nighttime brings an effective 9th band. This guesstimates to about -170° F, or -112°C. This is certainly extreme, past any Earth precedence. To counter, PC's would need Cold Resistance >5, Armour Insulation/ Cold Weather Outfit and Fur Clothing, and an Improvised Shelter. This brings them down to Cold, so Fort save 15+1/previous, vs 1d6 nonlethal cold, which their Cold Resistance 5 should cover pretty reliably. Until, however, someone eventually takes 6 damage, and the 1 remaining point triggers Frostbite, and then Hypothermia. Just to milk the example for all it's worth, let's assume they fail the 7th save of the evening, and their 8th hour of rest is now a:
Base DC 22
Cold Outfit, +5
Fur Clothing, +5
Fatigued, -2
So figurative DC 14. When can you expect a player to reliably make a DC 19? Con might provide a +2, so the remaining +2 can be provided by 1st level.
I uh.. I guess it still doesn't really matter, does it? Looks like I shouldn't blame Endure Elements, all it did was streamline the process, especially because this roll that a 1st level character could reasonably make is only going to occur under the most brutal circumstances possible, with the sole exception of the Cold Resistance 5.

So what does it all mean? Can I just dump Blizzard after Hurricane after Sandstorm over and over, and expect them to be fine? So it would seem, at least by the numbers, and assuming they thought ahead and bought the proper gear, and can remember to check the skies every morning.
Sorry to be the guy that makes a thread and then proves to himself he's wrong. My only defense is, as I said, I've never seen weather really utilized, so I never thought about it. I suppose now I see why, it's got all sorts of minuses and penalties and rules, but at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter too much. Wild.


A few points:
1. Cost of being prepared: Armor Insulation costs 50 gp for 24 hours. That's a not-insignificant expenditure at level 1. A Cold Weather Outfit (Player's Handbook, page 129) is only 8 gp so it's not so bad. Furs are a further 8 gp and -2 ACP if you wear armor. It's not a big cost but it's not nothing either. Carrying all that extra weight also adds up.

The fact that your players are prepared for the weather doesn't mean it wasn't a challenge any more than preparing for a dungeon with spells and armor means that dungeon wasn't a challenge, especially if they ended up expending resources, whether gold or spells, which could have helped them elsewhere.

2. Time delay caused by a weather event vs the risk of travelling through it: in addition to not accomplishing whatever mission you were going to do on time, you also expend resources. Food and water are essentially unlimited at higher levels but at low levels, being delayed a day or two while travelling through inhospitable zones can result in the beginning of starvation.

3. Wet clothing- does it still work?

I also think it's an oversight that your soaking wet cold weather gear will still function for keeping you warm. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610242-Cold-and-Wet-(3-5)

[PraxisVetli]

In some cases sitting a whole day is defeat because it was too much time lost.
This is true, and worth noting, especially when the blizzard might be 3 days- that's a lot of lost travel.

A few points:
1. Cost of being prepared: Armor Insulation costs 50 gp for 24 hours. That's a not-insignificant expenditure at level 1. A Cold Weather Outfit (Player's Handbook, page 129) is only 8 gp so it's not so bad. Furs are a further 8 gp and -2 ACP if you wear armor. It's not a big cost but it's not nothing either. Carrying all that extra weight also adds up.

The fact that your players are prepared for the weather doesn't mean it wasn't a challenge any more than preparing for a dungeon with spells and armor means that dungeon wasn't a challenge, especially if they ended up expending resources, whether gold or spells, which could have helped them elsewhere.

2. Time delay caused by a weather event vs the risk of travelling through it: in addition to not accomplishing whatever mission you were going to do on time, you also expend resources. Food and water are essentially unlimited at higher levels but at low levels, being delayed a day or two while travelling through inhospitable zones can result in the beginning of starvation.

3. Wet clothing- does it still work?

I also think it's an oversight that your soaking wet cold weather gear will still function for keeping you warm. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610242-Cold-and-Wet-(3-5)
This particular campaign is Zero Magic™, hence my concern with Endure Elements. This also plays into your first two points, because it's also devoid of domesticable creatures. This makes carry weight and food pretty crucial factors.
Wet clothes provide a +2 to the DC of healing Hypothermia, not much, but it's something I guess. I'd also argue that it counts as still being cold, so an additional +3 towards treating Frostbite. A fair houserule might argue that the wet clothes provide the +2/+3, so potentially +5, to the DC vs Hypothermia and Frostbite.



Mildly off topic: can potions freeze? I would think the fact that they're magic liquid would say no, but Black Dragons use Corrupt Water on potions, so... Admittedly, that's magic too, and as Uncle say, Magic must defeat Magic!

[noob]

Maybe potions can freeze but potions are often liquids with exotic stuff mixed in so their freezing temperature would be lower than the one of water so if you keep your potions within your clothes it would probably protect them.

[PraxisVetli]

Maybe potions can freeze but potions are often liquids with exotic stuff mixed in so their freezing temperature would be lower than the one of water so if you keep your potions within your clothes it would probably protect them.

You think it's crazy to say that if the player is exposed to Severe Cold, 0 to -20°F, then it could freeze?

[noob]

You think it's crazy to say that if the player is exposed to Severe Cold, 0 to -20°F, then it could freeze?

Let us assume healing potions are alcohol.(you drink it and are fight ready again)
What is the freezing temperature of alcohol?
-20f can freeze alcohol that is at 80% so I can see -20 freezing most potions but since body temperature going below a given value is instantly lethal if you have enough frost protection to not suffer from instant cold death it means your body is above that temperature(but few people put the potions within their bodies so they will be at a lower temperature and could still freeze) or that you follow the hp is meat points philosophy.
Of course healing potions made in area where cold is uncommon might be less frost resistant.
If you wanted to do it the D20 way potions would do a fortitude save.

If however the healing potion is 98% alcohol it would probably while resist most cold weathers while being carried close to your body but reaching such high alcohol content is hard if not impossible with old methods.
It can be argued that as magic potions are magical they would get the magical item benefit of being supernaturally resilient(like how armour and weapons that are magical are tougher)

[PraxisVetli]

Let us assume healing potions are alcohol.(you drink it and are fight ready again)
What is the freezing temperature of alcohol?
-20f can freeze alcohol that is at 80% so I can see -20 freezing most potions but since body temperature going below a given value is instantly lethal if you have enough frost protection to not suffer from instant cold death it means your body is above that temperature(but few people put the potions within their bodies so they will be at a lower temperature and could still freeze) or that you follow the hp is meat points philosophy.
Of course healing potions made in area where cold is uncommon might be less frost resistant.
If you wanted to do it the D20 way potions would do a fortitude save.

If however the healing potion is 98% alcohol it would probably while resist most cold weathers while being carried close to your body but reaching such high alcohol content is hard if not impossible with old methods.
It can be argued that as magic potions are magical they would get the magical item benefit of being supernaturally resilient(like how armour and weapons that are magical are tougher)

Do we have any reason to assume the alcohol content?
I think I might have them roll the fort save, but that might be one of those times where I roll behind the scenes, and if anyone does anything that might warrant them realize it, I'll let them roll to notice.

[noob]

Do we have any reason to assume the alcohol content?
I think I might have them roll the fort save, but that might be one of those times where I roll behind the scenes, and if anyone does anything that might warrant them realize it, I'll let them roll to notice.

You can make magical items with any material provided you reach the right cost.
Alcohol is drinkable and frost resistant and expensive when highly distilled so it stands as a potential material for potions especially since it could possibly cover the bad taste of other worse tasting things in the potion.
Some other alternative liquids would probably be water with a lot of sugar to hide the taste of other ingredients and possibly oil(a fancy oil because it is needed to make an expensive potion).

Potions mass produced by an artificer that does enough cost reduction shenanigans would probably be just water if the cost gets to the cost of the glass containing the liquid.(that is what you get for buying the cheap potions) so artificers skilled enough would probably never use alcohol on basic potions and this mean that most level 1 potions do not have alcohol in a setting allowing artificers that optimise potion cost because artificers that specialises in potion production have insane outputs.

What makes alcohol stands out is the low odds of spoiling due to alcohol killing varied organisms that could live in the potion unlike water with sugar or oil that would have high risks of spoiling if the seal is compromised.
(by raw there is potions that can spoil and become poisons: see the cursed items in DMG)

Also if you were to sell a potion that you looted and that it was not alcohol based people would worry it was spoiled so alcohol based potions are probably circulating more and thus more often seen.
(note that some potions will never use alcohol like the potion of cure alcoholism)

Personally if you were crafting an healing potion which liquid would you use?

[PraxisVetli]

You can make magical items with any material provided you reach the right cost.
Alcohol is drinkable and frost resistant and expensive when highly distilled so it stands as a potential material for potions especially since it could possibly cover the bad taste of other worse tasting things in the potion.
Some other alternative liquids would probably be water with a lot of sugar to hide the taste of other ingredients and possibly oil(a fancy oil because it is needed to make an expensive potion).

Potions mass produced by an artificer that does enough cost reduction shenanigans would probably be just water if the cost gets to the cost of the glass containing the liquid.(that is what you get for buying the cheap potions) so artificers skilled enough would probably never use alcohol on basic potions and this mean that most level 1 potions do not have alcohol in a setting allowing artificers that optimise potion cost because artificers that specialises in potion production have insane outputs.

What makes alcohol stands out is the low odds of spoiling due to alcohol killing varied organisms that could live in the potion unlike water with sugar or oil that would have high risks of spoiling if the seal is compromised.
(by raw there is potions that can spoil and become poisons: see the cursed items in DMG)

Also if you were to sell a potion that you looted and that it was not alcohol based people would worry it was spoiled so alcohol based potions are probably circulating more and thus more often seen.
(note that some potions will never use alcohol like the potion of cure alcoholism)

Personally if you were crafting an healing potion which liquid would you use?

I always just kind of assumed it was newt blood or something.

[noob]

I always just kind of assumed it was newt blood or something.
You can use newt blood or something if you are going to use it fast which is normal for a party that have tough characters.
You might want gentle repose if you do not plan to use the potions fast.
Or have a gm saying that the magical radiation kills stuff in the potion or something like that.

[SirNibbles]

This is true, and worth noting, especially when the blizzard might be 3 days- that's a lot of lost travel.

This particular campaign is Zero Magic™, hence my concern with Endure Elements. This also plays into your first two points, because it's also devoid of domesticable creatures. This makes carry weight and food pretty crucial factors.
Wet clothes provide a +2 to the DC of healing Hypothermia, not much, but it's something I guess. I'd also argue that it counts as still being cold, so an additional +3 towards treating Frostbite. A fair houserule might argue that the wet clothes provide the +2/+3, so potentially +5, to the DC vs Hypothermia and Frostbite.



Mildly off topic: can potions freeze? I would think the fact that they're magic liquid would say no, but Black Dragons use Corrupt Water on potions, so... Admittedly, that's magic too, and as Uncle say, Magic must defeat Magic!

In addition to the -2 for hypothermia for wet clothes and the -10 to all cold-related effects for clothes which have been fully immersed in cold water, there's this little piece from the Winter's Heart Glacier web module:




The water also soaks the character's footgear, and a character with wet feet takes a -4 penalty on all checks and saves to resist the effects of environmental cold, such as the hourly save a character must make to avoid the effects of cold or severe cold on the glacier.

Vicious Venues: Winter's Heart Glacier (Web Module): Ice Caves


___

I can't find anything that says potions freeze (or evaporate) at certain temperatures.

[PraxisVetli]

You can use newt blood or something if you are going to use it fast which is normal for a party that have tough characters.
You might want gentle repose if you do not plan to use the potions fast.
Or have a gm saying that the magical radiation kills stuff in the potion or something like that.
For me personally,that's more science than I want in my magic.


Winter's Heart Glacier web module:




The water also soaks the character's footgear, and a character with wet feet takes a -4 penalty on all checks and saves to resist the effects of environmental cold, such as the hourly save a character must make to avoid the effects of cold or severe cold on the glacier.

Vicious Venues: Winter's Heart Glacier (Web Module): Ice Caves


___

I can't find anything that says potions freeze (or evaporate) at certain temperatures.

Nice! That's an untyped penalty, brutal!

[Quentinas]

From Frostburn there is this phrase in the Delzomer forge module

This compartment is magic, similar in effect to the power of a cube of frost resistance, in that the inside of the 1-foot square compartment remains at a constant tem-perature of 65° F. Delzomen created this magic compartment when he realized he needed somewhere to store potions of healing for emergencies where the potions wouldn’t freeze solid. Four potions of cure moderate wounds, a potion of remove disease, and a potion of cure serious wounds sit in the compart-ment, each neatly labeled

So the potions can freeze if under a certain temperature it seems, in this case in rooms with blue ice plating that means 20° F so at least at that temperature the potions freeze, probably something more, but at 65 F the potions will not freeze

[SirNibbles]

From Frostburn there is this phrase in the Delzomer forge module


So the potions can freeze if under a certain temperature it seems, in this case in rooms with blue ice plating that means 20° F so at least at that temperature the potions freeze, probably something more, but at 65 F the potions will not freeze

Well, looks like we both failed somehow to find this obvious ruling:




Any liquid exposed to freezing temperatures freezes after 1 hour of continued exposure. Frozen liquid must be thawed before it can be used; one serving of frozen liquid can be thawed by a single torch’s flame in 10 minutes. The thaw spell can do the same in the matter of an instant. Water freezes at 32° F, but most potions are made of hardier stuff and freeze at temperatures of 20° F or lower. Oils are even more difficult to freeze, and only do so at temperatures of –20° F or lower. A frozen potion’s or oil’s magical qualities are unharmed by freezing, although the liquid must be thawed before it can be used.

Frostburn, page 79


This is in line with the idea that a room kept at a constant 20 degrees would be too cold for potions and the compartment would be necessary.

__

Here's the one for hot weather:





Burning Heat: At some point, increasing temperatures push past even unearthly heat and graduate to actual burning—when material objects catch fire spontaneously due to the heat. For instance, paper catches fire at 451º F (and dried-out skin catches fire at around the same temperature). Characters carrying fuel for their lamps or other combustibles discover that it catches fire at around 260º F. Water boils at approximately 212º F (depending on barometric pressure), and many potions or elixirs could quickly boil away to nothing somewhere near that temperature range.

Sandstorm, page 13


I don't know if the intent is for a sealed potion to turn to steam and destroy its container, or if it simply squeezes out of its container, or if it just evaporates when you try to open the potion to drink it.

[PraxisVetli]

From Frostburn there is this phrase in the Delzomer forge module


So the potions can freeze if under a certain temperature it seems, in this case in rooms with blue ice plating that means 20° F so at least at that temperature the potions freeze, probably something more, but at 65 F the potions will not freeze


Well, looks like we both failed somehow to find this obvious ruling:




Any liquid exposed to freezing temperatures freezes after 1 hour of continued exposure. Frozen liquid must be thawed before it can be used; one serving of frozen liquid can be thawed by a single torch’s flame in 10 minutes. The thaw spell can do the same in the matter of an instant. Water freezes at 32° F, but most potions are made of hardier stuff and freeze at temperatures of 20° F or lower. Oils are even more difficult to freeze, and only do so at temperatures of –20° F or lower. A frozen potion’s or oil’s magical qualities are unharmed by freezing, although the liquid must be thawed before it can be used.

Frostburn, page 79


This is in line with the idea that a room kept at a constant 20 degrees would be too cold for potions and the compartment would be necessary.

__

Here's the one for hot weather:





Burning Heat: At some point, increasing temperatures push past even unearthly heat and graduate to actual burning—when material objects catch fire spontaneously due to the heat. For instance, paper catches fire at 451º F (and dried-out skin catches fire at around the same temperature). Characters carrying fuel for their lamps or other combustibles discover that it catches fire at around 260º F. Water boils at approximately 212º F (depending on barometric pressure), and many potions or elixirs could quickly boil away to nothing somewhere near that temperature range.

Sandstorm, page 13


I don't know if the intent is for a sealed potion to turn to steam and destroy its container, or if it simply squeezes out of its container, or if it just evaporates when you try to open the potion to drink it.

My players hate you, but I thank you!
I wonder if any of them will think of these things before they're way out in the wastelands and it's far too late.

[SirNibbles]

My players hate you, but I thank you!
I wonder if any of them will think of these things before they're way out in the wastelands and it's far too late.

One hour of continued exposure isn't a well-defined term. If you keep your potions under your cloak, are they still exposed? How much do they benefit from your body heat? Would they freeze more slowly or not at all? Additionally, potions stored in something like a Bag of Holding should be perfectly fine since they're in a different dimension.

Also, before springing this on your players, I'd give them the hint of brushing up on the rules for environments. For your own benefit, have notes for the rules you expect to use written down- it comes in handy when you're using rules that don't come up as often.

[awa]

I definitely agree in fact I would go farther and simply tell them potions can freeze. D&d ignores so many aspects of physics that when you do decide that one matters you should simply tell them rather than doing a gotcha. At worst a low dc survival check should let them know.

[noob]

I definitely agree in fact I would go farther and simply tell them potions can freeze. D&d ignores so many aspects of physics that when you do decide that one matters you should simply tell them rather than doing a gotcha. At worst a low dc survival check should let them know.

I did agree potions could freeze.
However due to their nature as magic items I did think it could have been based on the item making fort saves since magical items have a fortitude, a will and reflexes.(which is seriously odd)
Or it could have been based on what went in the potion.
Apparently you could make a magical potion out of nitrogen and it would still freeze at 20F.(I have no clue how but it is probably the easiest way to get solid nitrogen: first get liquid nitrogen then make a potion with it then one hour later you have solid nitrogen)

[awa]

I did agree potions could freeze.
However due to their nature as magic items I did think it could have been based on the item making fort saves since magical items have a fortitude, a will and reflexes.(which is seriously odd)
Or it could have been based on what went in the potion.
Apparently you could make a magical potion out of nitrogen and it would still freeze at 20F.(I have no clue how but it is probably the easiest way to get solid nitrogen: first get liquid nitrogen then make a potion with it then one hour later you have solid nitrogen)

I'm simply saying that, if potions freezing is a thing that can happen it should not be dropped on them unexpectedly it should be mentioned directly as soon as it would be plausibly relevant.

[liquidformat]

I always just kind of assumed it was newt blood or something.

I have always went with troll blood for healing potions that has been watered down to different concentrations based which healing potion. I have always liked the idea of potions being made with monster parts.

[PraxisVetli]

I'm simply saying that, if potions freezing is a thing that can happen it should not be dropped on them unexpectedly it should be mentioned directly as soon as it would be plausibly relevant.
I'll give them a check before they're more than a day out, so they can still turn back and find a solution. And I don't see why the potions can't be thawed and used, I'm not going to make them throw out any. They'll get a survival check to notice, assuming they don't naturally think of it themselves. I might be [EVIL], but I'm not a monster.

I have always went with troll blood for healing potions that has been watered down to different concentrations based which healing potion. I have always liked the idea of potions being made with monster parts.

Troll makes sense, sure.

[noob]

I have always went with troll blood for healing potions that has been watered down to different concentrations based which healing potion. I have always liked the idea of potions being made with monster parts.

Troll blood is too cheap once you have a captured troll so you need other things in the potion to be expensive after you captured a troll (before it is fine because without capturing a troll getting troll blood is hard).
It would also make buying healing potions potentially be evil: by buying healing potions you encourage capturing trolls and torturing them by draining their blood all day long.

[liquidformat]

I'll give them a check before they're more than a day out, so they can still turn back and find a solution. And I don't see why the potions can't be thawed and used, I'm not going to make them throw out any. They'll get a survival check to notice, assuming they don't naturally think of it themselves. I might be [EVIL], but I'm not a monster.

Well the above quoted passage from Frostburn does expressly give permission for the potion to be thawed out and used. The only issue I see is if the potion is water based and there isn't adequate room for expansion inside the vial.

Even then that seems more like just a mean gotcha for the sake of being a gotcha. The fact that a potion just left in your sack would freeze if you haven't expressly done any work to insulate said back already seems like enough of a punishment without straight ruining the potion.

On the other hand I think that it is perfectly reasonable that extreme heat does in fact ruin the potion and the rule seems to agree with that.


Troll blood is too cheap once you have a captured troll so you need other things in the potion to be expensive after you captured a troll (before it is fine because without capturing a troll getting troll blood is hard).
It would also make buying healing potions potentially be evil: by buying healing potions you encourage capturing trolls and torturing them by draining their blood all day long.

I mean if using parts of a sapient dragon isn't considered evil I see no reason to start pointing hate at troll blood tonics! Who are you to judge the poor troll reduced to selling his own blood to support his family because he is too stupid to become a caster in magic dominated society!

[PraxisVetli]

Well the above quoted passage from Frostburn does expressly give permission for the potion to be thawed out and used. The only issue I see is if the potion is water based and there isn't adequate room for expansion inside the vial.

Even then that seems more like just a mean gotcha for the sake of being a gotcha. The fact that a potion just left in your sack would freeze if you haven't expressly done any work to insulate said back already seems like enough of a punishment without straight ruining the potion.

On the other hand I think that it is perfectly reasonable that extreme heat does in fact ruin the potion and the rule seems to agree with that.



I mean if using parts of a sapient dragon isn't considered evil I see no reason to start pointing hate at troll blood tonics! Who are you to judge the poor troll reduced to selling his own blood to support his family because he is too stupid to become a caster in magic dominated society!

No, I like punishing the players for not thinking ahead, but the lack of potion is sufficient. To say the potion is destroyed, rather than unavailable, seems like plenty.

[noob]

I mean if using parts of a sapient dragon isn't considered evil I see no reason to start pointing hate at troll blood tonics! Who are you to judge the poor troll reduced to selling his own blood to support his family because he is too stupid to become a caster in magic dominated society!

I said potentially evil I did not say it was guaranteed to be evil.
Also some people dislike the idea of wearing scales from a dead dragon (probably because if they could not protect the dragon who had them it means it would probably not protect you either)

[liquidformat]

AFB at the moment but does sandstorm or stormwrack talk about flash flooding, the DMG entry seems skip over flash flooding and only talk about spring flooding of rivers which is a completely different animal altogether.

[PraxisVetli]

AFB at the moment but does sandstorm or stormwrack talk about flash flooding, the DMG entry seems skip over flash flooding and only talk about spring flooding of rivers which is a completely different animal altogether.

A cursory flip-through says no, but the DMG does have avalanche rules, page 90, so you might be able to home-brew something. Less than ideal, I know, but what do you do, you know? I checked Dungeonscape too, just in case it covered if a dungeon floods, to no avail. Best guess is just tweak that avalanche rules, and add rules for swimming in super turbulent water, which looks like a DC 20, maybe make it a 25 just for that extra oomph, since it does say floods increase the swim category, so I'd personally consider making an extra category after Stormy Water.
Then fill it with Sahaguin Druids riding sharks!

[Quentinas]

Have you controlled stormwalk? Maybe there is something here about flood

[PraxisVetli]

Have you controlled stormwalk? Maybe there is something here about flood
I checked. There's rules for a flooding ship, but that's it.
Weird, right?

[noob]

stormwalk is about sailing so it does not contains as much content about non ship related things as much as it could.

[SirNibbles]

AFB at the moment but does sandstorm or stormwrack talk about flash flooding, the DMG entry seems skip over flash flooding and only talk about spring flooding of rivers which is a completely different animal altogether.

The next sentence does mention that a river can flood from strong rains, not just spring snowmelt. Flooding is likely less common than we think outside of such scenarios- in places where there aren't a lot of impervious surfaces from human development, flooding isn't as significant. Open fields don't flood just because of heavy rain. Yes, water may pool when the rainfall is so great that the soil becomes completely saturated, but it's rare for there to be anything further than getting your feet a bit wet.

Here's a short video on flooding: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tlvu_ek7q0 which could help you out if you're trying to make your own flooding rules in addition to the river flood rules.

[liquidformat]

The next sentence does mention that a river can flood from strong rains, not just spring snowmelt. Flooding is likely less common than we think outside of such scenarios- in places where there aren't a lot of impervious surfaces from human development, flooding isn't as significant. Open fields don't flood just because of heavy rain. Yes, water may pool when the rainfall is so great that the soil becomes completely saturated, but it's rare for there to be anything further than getting your feet a bit wet.

Here's a short video on flooding: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tlvu_ek7q0 which could help you out if you're trying to make your own flooding rules in addition to the river flood rules.

I know from growing up backpacking in the desert and mountains in western US that you can get some crazy floods out of nowhere. Especially in a desert area you can sometimes get floods from storms that didn't even hit your area but can be quite deadly. Also I did read through that flood passage, however, it caps at stormy weather which is a noticeable issue since things like whitewater in rivers would be more dangerous to swim in, also there is a large difference in levels of stormy between light storm and mega hurricane.

Anyways I have been slowly making a word doc with the intent to have a full compilation of every book's modifications for every skill but it has been going slow. Taking a quick look swimming a waterfall from the epic handbook it is a DC 80 swim check where as swimming a stormy body of water is only DC 20. It seems like a pretty large gap there that should include things like swimming in white water rapids.
Comparing this to whitewater rapids classification we have the following:

Class A - Lake water. Still. No perceptible movement. (Calm water DC 10)
Class I - Easy. Smooth water; light riffles; clear passages, occasional sand banks and gentle curves. The most difficult problems might arise when paddling around bridges and other obvious obstructions. classification (DC 10-15)
Class II - Moderate. Medium-quick water; rapids with regular waves; clear and open passages between rocks and ledges. Maneuvering required. Best handled by intermediates who can maneuver canoes and read water. (Rough DC 15)
Class III - Moderately difficult. Numerous high and irregular waves; rocks and eddies with passages clear but narrow and requiring experience to run. Visual inspection required if rapids are unknown. Open canoes without flotation bags will have difficulty. These rapids are best left to canoeists with expert skills. (equivalent to stormy water DC 20)
Class IV - Difficult. Long and powerful rapids and standing waves; souse holes and boiling eddies. Powerful and precise maneuvering required. Visual inspection mandatory. Cannot be run in canoes unless the craft is decked or properly equipped with flotation bags. Advance preparations for possible rescue work important. (DC >20)
Class V - Extremely difficult. Long and violent rapids that follow each other almost without interruption. River filled with obstructions. Big drops and violent currents. Extremely steep gradient. Even reconnoitering may be difficult. Rescue preparations mandatory. Can be run only by top experts in specially equipped whitewater canoes, decked craft, and kayaks. (DC >20)
Class VI - Extraordinarily difficult. Paddlers face constant threat of death because of extreme danger. Navigable only when water levels and conditions are favorable. This violent whitewater should be left to paddlers of Olympic ability. Every safety precaution must be taken. (DC 80)


I think listing Class IV as 40 and V as 60 seems pretty reasonable, you are dealing with avoiding hazards in very fast moving water with things like undertow and debris...

[SirNibbles]

I know from growing up backpacking in the desert and mountains in western US that you can get some crazy floods out of nowhere. Especially in a desert area you can sometimes get floods from storms that didn't even hit your area but can be quite deadly. Also I did read through that flood passage, however, it caps at stormy weather which is a noticeable issue since things like whitewater in rivers would be more dangerous to swim in, also there is a large difference in levels of stormy between light storm and mega hurricane.

Anyways I have been slowly making a word doc with the intent to have a full compilation of every book's modifications for every skill but it has been going slow. Taking a quick look swimming a waterfall from the epic handbook it is a DC 80 swim check where as swimming a stormy body of water is only DC 20. It seems like a pretty large gap there that should include things like swimming in white water rapids.
Comparing this to whitewater rapids classification we have the following:

Class A - Lake water. Still. No perceptible movement. (Calm water DC 10)
Class I - Easy. Smooth water; light riffles; clear passages, occasional sand banks and gentle curves. The most difficult problems might arise when paddling around bridges and other obvious obstructions. classification (DC 10-15)
Class II - Moderate. Medium-quick water; rapids with regular waves; clear and open passages between rocks and ledges. Maneuvering required. Best handled by intermediates who can maneuver canoes and read water. (Rough DC 15)
Class III - Moderately difficult. Numerous high and irregular waves; rocks and eddies with passages clear but narrow and requiring experience to run. Visual inspection required if rapids are unknown. Open canoes without flotation bags will have difficulty. These rapids are best left to canoeists with expert skills. (equivalent to stormy water DC 20)
Class IV - Difficult. Long and powerful rapids and standing waves; souse holes and boiling eddies. Powerful and precise maneuvering required. Visual inspection mandatory. Cannot be run in canoes unless the craft is decked or properly equipped with flotation bags. Advance preparations for possible rescue work important. (DC >20)
Class V - Extremely difficult. Long and violent rapids that follow each other almost without interruption. River filled with obstructions. Big drops and violent currents. Extremely steep gradient. Even reconnoitering may be difficult. Rescue preparations mandatory. Can be run only by top experts in specially equipped whitewater canoes, decked craft, and kayaks. (DC >20)
Class VI - Extraordinarily difficult. Paddlers face constant threat of death because of extreme danger. Navigable only when water levels and conditions are favorable. This violent whitewater should be left to paddlers of Olympic ability. Every safety precaution must be taken. (DC 80)


I think listing Class IV as 40 and V as 60 seems pretty reasonable, you are dealing with avoiding hazards in very fast moving water with things like undertow and debris...

Just one thing to point out: the DC 80 for waterfalls is to swim up a waterfall vertically, i.e. you start at the bottom of a waterfall and swim up through the falling water somehow. It's a superhuman feat that nobody in our world could come close to managing.

__

As for whether or not an area will flood as a result of a certain amount of rain, that's something I think the DM should research and have mapped out ahead of time if it's going to be a significant part of the campaign. Yes, deserts can flood, but that's largely a result of topography, not simply a tremendous amount of rain. Having areas designated as flooding to certain degrees under certain weather conditions isn't something the rules can really handle- it's part of the DM's world building effort. Of course, applying the river flooding rules is extremely useful to this end.

[PraxisVetli]

As for whether or not an area will flood as a result of a certain amount of rain, that's something I think the DM should research and have mapped out ahead of time if it's going to be a significant part of the campaign. Yes, deserts can flood, but that's largely a result of topography, not simply a tremendous amount of rain. Having areas designated as flooding to certain degrees under certain weather conditions isn't something the rules can really handle- it's part of the DM's world building effort. Of course, applying the river flooding rules is extremely useful to this end.

I have my weather table all rolled up, and if I get god-awful storms too often in a row, depending on terrain, I might do a flash-flood. It's hardly a common occurrence.
I'm also considering things like too many duststorms in a row altering the world enough that maps might be less than accurate, and how to handle survival checks to notice they're wrong.
I think I'll just run it of the basic lost rules, except give it a little extra time (a day?) to notice.

If I write up all the major weather types as a single post, akin to the earlier post with the blizzard, does that appeal to anyone? I find it useful because everything is 'as rain' 'as fog' 'as X wind' etc.
Having things compiled in one single shazam is way easier.


Do you guys even use weather much? Like I said, this is the first time I've seen it come up at all, and I'm the DM! Of my 4-5 other DM's I've played under, none have given it thought past whether it was sunny or not.

[liquidformat]

I think that would be cool. It has really depended on the dm/adventure. I have had some adventures where things like crazy rain has led to mudslides that have played a factor in the adventure arch or ones focused around being in a wintery place where blizzards and storms are an important factor, and then others that have never touched on it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

AFB at the moment but does sandstorm or stormwrack talk about flash flooding, the DMG entry seems skip over flash flooding and only talk about spring flooding of rivers which is a completely different animal altogether.

It's not a general weather rule but the description of the Flashflood spell (Sand) should at least give you a starting point.

[PraxisVetli]

I think that would be cool. It has really depended on the dm/adventure. I have had some adventures where things like crazy rain has led to mudslides that have played a factor in the adventure arch or ones focused around being in a wintery place where blizzards and storms are an important factor, and then others that have never touched on it.

It'll be slow uploading, I was in a piv incident at work (I'm mostly ok), and now extended keyboard use is really hard on me.

I might post some here, then once there's enough, start a weather handbook, see if other Playgroundians can dig up wonky stuff from dragmags and whatnot.
Could cover weather and then all the crazy things like that maneater dune. Seriously, what is up with that?

[smetzger]

I have my weather table all rolled up, and if I get god-awful storms too often in a row, depending on terrain, I might do a flash-flood. ....

Not sure if you are referring to a random weather table for determining weather.

Instead of a random weather table you could use historical weather...
https://www.wunderground.com/history

Pick a real location that matches the weather in your 'fantasy world' location. Then pick a year and calendar day.
This works better if you are using a similar calendar.

[liquidformat]

It'll be slow uploading, I was in a piv incident at work (I'm mostly ok), and now extended keyboard use is really hard on me.

I might post some here, then once there's enough, start a weather handbook, see if other Playgroundians can dig up wonky stuff from dragmags and whatnot.
Could cover weather and then all the crazy things like that maneater dune. Seriously, what is up with that?

Sorry to hear that you were injured hope you get better quickly. Anyways I have found creating a google doc and then just sharing the link to be rather useful for this sort of thing rather than trying to recreate it on different forums.

[PraxisVetli]

Sorry to hear that you were injured hope you get better quickly. Anyways I have found creating a google doc and then just sharing the link to be rather useful for this sort of thing rather than trying to recreate it on different forums.

Thanks, I'll heal mostly. Lost about 20-50° of movement in each axis of my left wrist.
Life goes on, right?

Anyway.
Google doc is sound advice, thanks!