PDA

View Full Version : Suggestion for Dragon Disciples



MrNexx
2007-11-04, 04:49 PM
I'm reluctant to give DD's full spellcasting levels, even if you limit them to spontaneous casting. However, what would people think of the solution where DD's get the equivalent of Spell Power (i.e. increase in effective caster level, but not spells per day, etc.) per level?

TheSteelRat
2007-11-04, 05:00 PM
Honestly I think it'd be better to only give them + existing arcane class level for each level they receive bonus spells. That makes it a 7/10 class for spell progression. Results in a 10 Sorcerer / 10 DD = 17 Sorcerer (8th level spells only)

The other option is to give them one every other level, starting at level 1. Gives a 10 Sorcerer / 10 DD = 15 Sorcerer (7th level spells only). It's also interesting to note that the bonus attribute progression favors wizards over sorcerers, despite the prestige class obviously being built for "dragon-blooded" spontaneous casters.

Honestly I think sorcerers are gimped compared to Wizards, due to the whole being one level behind wizards thing. If they're playing spontaneous classes only, they're already not optimized, so give'em a little boost.

Temp
2007-11-04, 05:51 PM
The other option is to give them one every other level, starting at level 1. Gives a 10 Sorcerer / 10 DD = 15 Sorcerer (7th level spells only).
I'd agree with this, but I'd delay spellcasting advancement until 2nd level. Otherwise, there would be no reason for a spellcaster not to dip a level here, a problem too many PrCs are starting to have.

TheSteelRat
2007-11-04, 06:08 PM
Ah, you've got a point at that. The other class benefit though is a +1 Natural Armor AC, which isn't exactly spectacular. Honestly, I'd rewrite the class using something closer to the Heritage Feats from Complete Arcane(?), but a more "powerful" version. As it is as a sorcerer, you're out 1 arcane caster level progression and 4 feats compared to a Wizard. Perhaps make Draconic Heritage one of the pre-req feats. Natural armor, while it adds flavor, isn't as useful to a sorcerer as it is to a Melee class. Sorcerers don't need an equivalent of "Fighter Level Odd," even if it's just a prestige class.

Temp
2007-11-04, 06:37 PM
I think the designers' intentions were to balance the caster-heavy Eldritch Knight with a Fighter-Heavy Dragon Disciple. It's not a *bad* tank by the Core standards... A Fighter 4/Sorcerer1/Dragon Disciple 10 is probably all-around better than a Fighter 15 with only Core feats.

To redesign the class to keep up with newer PrCs, I would:
--drop the Half-Dragon capstone (because it interferes with adaption) and spread +12 Str, +4 Con, +4 Cha, +4 Int and +5 NA through the progression, still heavily loaded for the last 5 levels.
--give it a proper Dragon Breath Weapon (up to 12d8 at 10th level... it's still an average of 54 damage at ECL 15 with Reflex half... actually worth using once in a while for a level 15 character)
--an actual breath recharge mechanic (every 1d4 rounds)
--slap on a full base attack
--give half-caster progression (starting at second)
--provide Mettle at some point... maybe sixth or seventh level (The class is a defensive one, so why not give proper defensive abilities?)

...and I'd tail the class description with "Adaptation" section for non-dragon fluff (for some reason, some people's DMs don't allow it. I just don't understand...)

I think the end result would be powerful, but not game-breaking. Keep in mind that I mean this to compare to ToB/Psionic classes, not the Swashbuckler or the Soulknife.

TheSteelRat
2007-11-04, 06:45 PM
If you're going for a tank though, I think Abjurant Champion really sets the bar on that one. With Half-Dragon bonuses throughout the class though, especially wings and the like, it could be worth it.

How does the Dragon Shaman Class stack in melee compared to your suggested setup, as well as the original?

Temp
2007-11-04, 07:17 PM
If you're going for a tank though, I think Abjurant Champion really sets the bar on that one. They aren't mutually exclusive, so I'm not worried about that. The class will have pretty good defenses, but will still be torn apart by Rays and no-saves.


How does the Dragon Shaman Class stack in melee compared to your suggested setup, as well as the original?
I don't think they're directly comprable... the Dragon Adept is a support/healing class while the Dragon Disciple is--if anything--a tank.

So the Dragon Disciple will always show the Dragon Adept up in Melee (even the DMG Dragon Disciple) and the Dragon Adept will always show the Dragon Disciple up in Healing and group buffs. To be honest, I wasn't trying at all to match the DD's power to that of the Dragon Adept. I was trying to bring it up to that of the Crusader or Warblade. Statistic Increases are going to be weaker than versatility through Maneuvers, so I'm not at all afraid of it overshadowing them.

What I was somewhat worried about is a conjunction of ToB with the "fix" I was building, which is why I mentioned delaying the majority of the ability increases until the last half of the DD: it would make Martial Adepts choose between ninth level maneuvers and fairly hefty ability increases.

I'll admit to not thinking through the "fix" in any great detail, but I think it's the skeleton of an adaption that may work.

AtomicKitKat
2007-11-04, 08:51 PM
Compress it into 5 levels, make it 3/5 or 4/5 casting progression, drop the bonus slots, and call it done. This way, it's only +1 to +2 LA, compared to the template's +3.

bugsysservant
2007-11-04, 08:56 PM
--an actual breath recharge mechanic (every 1d4 rounds)


Isn't there already a feat from Races of the Dragon that lets a half dragon recharge its breath weapon every 1d4 rounds? You might as well just give them a bonus feat instead from the dragon heritage (or whatever they were called) in RotD

Stam
2007-11-04, 09:09 PM
Keep in mind, though, that Dragon Disciple's former intent was to grant the half-dragon template and all its benefits over a 10-level PrC.

Other than the Blindsight and wings for anything Medium or smaller, there's fairly little else that the class grants that the template doesn't.

If you're going to give it more oomph than the template, perhaps the template should also be altered to suit?

(Note: I personally do not like using ToB as the balancing-bar for pretty much anything. Agreed, full casters break the melee game at anything past 10th-level, but if the solution is ToB? Count me out.)

Temp
2007-11-04, 09:51 PM
Keep in mind, though, that Dragon Disciple's former intent was to grant the half-dragon template and all its benefits over a 10-level PrC.I think the goal should be emulating the Half-Dragon template over 10 levels, eventually out-doing it. 10 racial hit dice [The DMG Dragon Disciple] just aren't as good as 7 class levels, especially with the LA buy-off variant which most groups seem to use now-a-days.


(Note: I personally do not like using ToB as the balancing-bar for pretty much anything. Agreed, full casters break the melee game at anything past 10th-level, but if the solution is ToB? Count me out.)
Like the book or not, it's pretty well seated in the middle ground between spellcasters and non-spellcasters. It's a good balanced goal shoot for.


Isn't there already a feat from Races of the Dragon that lets a half dragon recharge its breath weapon every 1d4 rounds? You might as well just give them a bonus feat instead from the dragon heritage (or whatever they were called) in RotD
Maybe. I don't own the book.

I just don't see a reason to needlessly complicate things by giving a class ability mechanics (the times/day clause) only to overwrite them.