How to Increase Survivability

[Techcaliber]

Well hello everyone! Recently a friend announced he’s going to be running a hardcore game, where when you die, you’re out of the game. Now, I don’t want to be banished from the game, so my question is this:

What build could I use to maximize my survivability? The campaign is going to be combat heavy, and while I don’t have all the details, we will assume we’re starting from level 1. Thanks in advance!

EDIT: Class is undecided, that’s part of what I’m asking: what class(es) should I play for this?

[astral]

What class are you playing?

[Techcaliber]

What class are you playing?

Undecided: I’ll go and specify this in the post, but I’m looking for the entire build: class and all

[Asisreo1]

Paladins are really tough, so I'd consider those.

I'd also consider Druids as your spellcaster or Cleric if they don't have one.

I'd avoid Barbarians, Rogues, and most other spellcasters.

Monks will also have a hard time, so unless you're good with them, I'd also avoid them.

Artificer is nice, but they're not as sturdy as you'd think.

Overall, my top 3 picks for classes are Paladin, then Druid, then Cleric.

[astral]

Paladins are really tough, so I'd consider those.

Yes, I'd say a very durable build would be a hill dwarf oath of the ancients paladin. Tough feat and defensive duelist along with spell resistance will make you very hard to kill. Take a rapier and shield but still use strength for attacks. The defensive fighting style will bump your AC up a bit more, combined with heavy armor and defensive duelist will keep you very cozy behind a mountain of AC.

Of course though, the most important thing to stay alive is common sense. Use your head in combat, let the rogue check for traps, ETC.

[MaxWilson]

Well hello everyone! Recently a friend announced he’s going to be running a hardcore game, where when you die, you’re out of the game. Now, I don’t want to be banished from the game, so my question is this:

What build could I use to maximize my survivability? The campaign is going to be combat heavy, and while I don’t have all the details, we will assume we’re starting from level 1. Thanks in advance!

EDIT: Class is undecided, that’s part of what I’m asking: what class(es) should I play for this?

Goblin Shepherd Druid, take Skulker ASAP. Fight by proxy while hiding in the shadows.

[Dork_Forge]

If you're starting at first level then the hardest part is hoping that the dice don't fall against you and instakill you, some options:

-Half Orc or Goliath Ancients Paladin, always have Cure Wounds prepared (I prefer Goliath for this as you can use their ability multiple times a day)

-Artillerist Artificer (variant Human: Healer) using the protector cannon pretty much exclusively, consider a Wizard dip for the slots

My go to in this kind of situation though would be my personal favourite: Wolverine (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24523574&postcount=102)

The comination of massive hp with regeneration and staying power throughout the adventuring day leaves you with a character that is exceptionally hard to kill.

[Kane0]

I would advise Rogue actually, or perhaps a rogue multiclassed into barbarian, ranger or fighter. Rogues gain mediocre HP and armor but have cunning action, evasion and uncanny dodge to avoid taking hits and aren't dependent on getting into melee in the first place while also tending to have better stealth, initiative and expertise in an anti-grappling skill. Multiclassing into a warrior type class after you gain the defensive features you want beefs up your HP and armor while also netting you more attack power that isn't reliant on sneak attack.

Another option is War or abjurer wizard paired with something like Dwarf for HP or armor, or an old fashioned life cleric, especially if you expect shorter adventuring days where longevity of resources is less important. Rogues reliably do their thing all day long but a defensive caster can get some really impressive spells and rest-based abilities you can put towards protecting yourself and others. Casters can usually summon meatshields to put more HP between you (and your party) and whatever you are fighting, or debuff enemies directly to the point that they aren't a threat or even work for you

Edit: We had a fun little competition about this recently (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612408-5e-Throwdowns-2-Judgement-Day-aka-the-terminator!).

[Techcaliber]

Hey, just wanted to thank everyone for the responses this far! They’re giving me a good idea of a character that will be able to tough it out, so thanks!

[stoutstien]

Are you specifically focused on saving your own skin or increasing the entire party's survivability?

[KorvinStarmast]

If you want to avoid character death, the critical consideration is to
Play As A Team.
Think tactically, use scouting, don't go barging into anywhere without first checking out the lay of the land.

That's how you avoid PC death.

If you think a character build will do it, you are sadly mistaken.
This isn't a video game built for a single player experience. It is a TTRPG based on teamwork.

If your party works as a team, and if at least one of you has healing word as a spell, you should be OK.

How many players? For a party of four I suggest:
1 Paladin
1 Druid or cleric
1 Rogue
1 (could be anything)

[Ir0ns0ul]

Mark of Warding Dwarf Abjuration Wizard is probably the most durable, versatile and powerful build out there.

You are able to do all the usual “God Wizard” battlefield control, but thanks to the unique combination of your racial skills and Arcane Ward, you have the equivalent HP of a d10 martial class.


Armor of Agathys + Arcane Ward makes you super dangerous at melee combat. Sometimes you want to be hit, therefore you’ll only use Shield spell when it’s really needed, improving your spell slots economy.
Since you are super tough, you don’t need to worry so much about AC and you have a free cast of Mage Armor once a day (which frees up a spell prep at low levels).
Goblins, Kobolds and the like will probably die if they hit you in melee, assuming AoA is up. So probably your DM will try to circumvent that with ranged attacks, but you are not a dumb Fighter or a handsome Sorcerer, you have underrated spells like Warding Wind to deal with this scenarios. Absorb Elements is a must have for any Wizard.
Projected Ward grants extra survivability for your Familiar, which makes things like Dragon’s Breath more effective.

[Asisreo1]

If you want to avoid character death, the critical consideration is to
Play As A Team.
Think tactically, use scouting, don't go barging into anywhere without first checking out the lay of the land.

That's how you avoid PC death.

If you think a character build will do it, you are sadly mistaken.
This isn't a video game built for a single player experience. It is a TTRPG based on teamwork.

If your party works as a team, and if at least one of you has healing word as a spell, you should be OK.

How many players? For a party of four I suggest:
1 Paladin
1 Druid or cleric
1 Rogue
1 (could be anything)
This is the most correct answer. If you don't work as a team, you'll be shut down almost immediately.

This doesn't mean you have to be another player's slave, but cooperation leads to combos and a party will always be stronger than the sum of its parts.

[J-H]

Abjurer is super-survivable. You get decent AC at critical times thanks to Shield, a HP ward that grows pretty rapidly AND protects concentration (temp HP loss doesn't count for Concentration DCs), and can still pick up whatever set of spells you want to contribute to the party with.

[Droppeddead]

Plus 1 to the whole "work as a team", thing.

After that, I'd go for Artificer. They're versatile, they can make their own magic items and they are SAD. Starting out as a variant human will give you an early game boost with the free feat (Lucky, Tough, Mobile and Alert are all good choices).

For subclass I'd say that Artillerist with a healing cannon or Armorer with the healing armor is probably the best way to go for pure survivability. A Battle Smith with a steel defender gives you an extra team member that can be pretty useful as well though. I'd say it comes down to choice and personal preference.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

[Vogie]

Dwarven Celestial Chain Warlock

You aren't beholden to long rests, have darkvision and the Tough feat built right into the class, and you have access to Dwarven Fortitude, potentially allowing you to use Hit Dice to heal yourself in combat. With Chainpact, you have an invisible scout (and helper, and potential assailant) and access to Gift of the Ever-Living Ones, maximizing all healing done to you by any source.

Speaking of healing, you have the ability to learn healing spells, as well as a number of d6 healing dice for free. This is all on top of the two best cantrips in the game - Eldritch blast and Sacred Flame - and you're in the one subclass that can potentially add their Cha Mod to either of them.

If you have the stats, you can also multi into Fighter, providing heavy armor and second wind, or War Wizard - the latter for the ritual casting, spells known, +Int to Initiative and an incredibly versatile reaction.

[Alcore]

The game is designed as a group affair and so class is secondary if not further down. Each one has some kind of weakness even if that weakness is a lack of a specialty. Maximizing the use of your ability scores will help more in the long run. Since it will be combat heavy try to optimize AC.


To put on or take off a shield is an action. Try to emulate Captain America and carry a shield on your back; even as a wizard. If spells are running out and you must make the choice between casting cantrip at point blank or grabing shield go for the shield. Your material weapons do as much damage as a cantrip at low levels. It is a sad sight to see a squishy play fighter but the alternative is often to eat steel.

Optimize your dex for the kind of armor your going to be in. If you're going to be in medium max out at 14. If light or no armor decide whether dex or your main attribute is worthy of your highest stat. Check to see if feats are allowed; if not it is okay to be a wizard with 12int and 18dex. 4th level you can have +2int to keep you going.

Already have a healbot? Make another; warlock with celestial patron, sorcerer with celestial blood or even a paladin. If that guy falls he might take the team with him. It might be nice to be able to heal yourself too.

[Merudo]

For survivability, you really one (and only one) character that can generate temporary HPs for the whole team.

This mean one of Shepard Druid, Twilight Cleric, Artillerist Artificer, Glamour Bard, or any character with Inspiring Leader.



How many players? For a party of four I suggest:
1 Paladin
1 Druid or cleric
1 Rogue
1 (could be anything)

I'm curious as to why you suggest a Rogue? I don't find them especially valuable in any role.

I'd much rather have an Iron Wizard instead.

[MaxWilson]

How many players? For a party of four I suggest:
1 Paladin
1 Druid or cleric
1 Rogue
1 (could be anything)

IMO a party of all druids would be even stronger for this type of game (2 Shepherd 2 Moon). Now everybody can short rest almost at will via Meld Into Stone without leaving anyone out in the open; everybody can heal each other; everybody has free HP from wildshape; everybody can AoE with Tidal Wave/Erupting Earth/etc.; everybody can turn into spiders and sneak around together under Pass Without Trace while somebody else maintains concentration on Conjure Elemental/Animals/Woodland Creatures/Fey. (What appears to be a simple invasion of Quicklings and Earth Elementals is actually being masterminded by the spiders in the Quicklings' hair!)

Everybody's a scout, a healer, a summoner, a blaster, and to some extent a tank. And everybody is on the same rest schedule.

[Merudo]

IMO a party of all druids would be even stronger for this type of game (2 Shepherd 2 Moon). Now everybody can short rest almost at will via Meld Into Stone without leaving anyone out in the open; everybody can heal each other; everybody has free HP from wildshape; everybody can AoE with Tidal Wave/Erupting Earth/etc.; everybody can turn into spiders and sneak around together under Pass Without Trace while somebody else maintains concentration on Conjure Elemental/Animals/Woodland Creatures/Fey. (What appears to be a simple invasion of Quicklings and Earth Elementals is actually being masterminded by the spiders in the Quicklings' hair!)

Everybody's a scout, a healer, a summoner, a blaster, and to some extent a tank. And everybody is on the same rest schedule.

It's indeed a strong party, but it will struggle hard against aerial enemies such as Dragons.

[Greywander]

I second coordinating with the rest of the party to insure the maximum survivability of the party as a whole, rather than focusing on just yourself. Off the top of my head, I'd recommend:

A Life cleric with Goodberry (druid dip or Magic Initiate). Provides very efficient combat healing, goodberries can be used like healing potions or for efficient out-of-combat healing.
A Abjuration wizard with a single level dip into cleric (for medium armor and shields, plus some more spells). All the goodness of a wizard combined with decent AC and an extra pool of HP that can be extended to the entire party.
An Ancients paladin. AC is good and all, but this will help bolster the party's saving throws, as well as halving damage taken from spells.
A Moon druid. Fantastic wildcard character that can fill any role. Best when used to adapt the the situation at hand to supply whatever you're short on at that moment.
A Necromancer wizard (again, with a dip in cleric for armor and spells), or other quality minionmancy build. Provides expendable minions that can take the risks for you. Also, strength in numbers, which is quite effective in 5e. Just make sure you're smart about deploying your minions, or you'll end up getting them all killed in a single breath attack or Fireball.

What you'll notice with the first three builds especially is the focus on getting everyone decent AC, then good saves from the paladin aura, an extra HP buffer from the abjurer, and lastly backed up with the strongest combat healing you can get. Enemies will have to first get through your AC or saves, then chew through the ward, and even after all that they still have to play tug-of-war with the cleric, attempting to deal more damage than the cleric can heal. Wizard and paladin also provide some strong offense and (for the wizard) control options, allowing you to not only survive, but to decimate your enemies.

I'm sure there are other great builds out there that I'm less familiar with. The new Twilight cleric sounds like it has a pretty strong channel divinity option, and I keep hearing about Shepard druids but I'm not that familiar with druids really.

Alternatively, this would be a good opportunity for an all-cleric or all-paladin party. You say that you're out of the game if you die, but can you be brought back with resurrection magic? If literally everyone has Revivify prepared (and can prepare Raise Dead, if needed), and you're all carrying diamonds of the appropriate value, then it becomes almost impossible to really kill any of you. Kind of expensive, though.

[TheMango55]

Twilight cleric could increase survivability of the whole party.

[MaxWilson]

It's indeed a strong party, but it will struggle hard against aerial enemies such as Dragons.

Will it really? If everyone summons an Air Elemental (or a bunch of Giant Owls), and the Shepherd Druids buff them with temp HP, I foresee the elementals doing quite well against even an adult red dragon. And then even if the dragon wins, it hasn't beat the druids yet, merely used up some 5th level spells. They can still do it again a few minutes later after summoning fresh minions.

[Asisreo1]

Will it really? If everyone summons an Air Elemental (or a bunch of Giant Owls), and the Shepherd Druids buff them with temp HP, I foresee the elementals doing quite well against even an adult red dragon. And then even if the dragon wins, it hasn't beat the druids yet, merely used up some 5th level spells. They can still do it again a few minutes later after summoning fresh minions.
Assuming the dragon's smart, it would use its breath weapon on the druids to both damage them and break their concentration. If it succeeds, its done much more than use up a spell slot.

[Sigreid]

I'd see if I could get the entire party to build for stealth. The idea being if it's that hard core, you want to be able to pick and choose where and when you fight to maximize your advantages and ability to escape if things go south.

Frankly, your individual survival is secondary to the survival of the group, assuming you all like each other and want a zero death campaign. :)

[Greywander]

I'd see if I could get the entire party to build for stealth. The idea being if it's that hard core, you want to be able to pick and choose where and when you fight to maximize your advantages and ability to escape if things go south.

Frankly, your individual survival is secondary to the survival of the group, assuming you all like each other and want a zero death campaign. :)
This is a good thing to bring up. And to expand on this, you should probably skew heavily toward a combat-as-war mindset. Avoid fights any way you can, and if you absolutely must kill something then use every dirty trick you can find. Burn down their tents, poison their water supply, and roll boulders/logs down the hill into their camp. Avoid engaging in combat until you've sufficiently shifted the odds in your favor. If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, then you didn't cheat hard enough, and should retreat. This is war, there are no rules, no honor, no glory. There are only those who survive, and those who do not.

By "cheat" I mean in-character. Obviously don't cheat at the game. I'm talking about kicking them in the nuts or stealing their weapon, not fudging your dice rolls.

[sithlordnergal]

It will depend a little bit, but I generally find Moon Druids to be the hardest characters to put down. The Combat Wild Shape is absolutely nuts, and gives you a ton of extra HP on demand, while allowing you to remain a full caster. You could be on the front lines as one if you want, but you can just as easily stay in the back.

[Houster]

Why is no one recommending totem barb(bear)?
Or any barb for that matter?
Really asking cause I feel I am missing something.

Plus, survival is dependent on many things, one of which is information. It is really important for someone to have stuff like-
Find familiar, Detect thoughts, clairvoyance, arcane eye and scrying. Knowing what you face can be 50% of the fight.

Also exit buttons like misty step, and party savers like thunder step dimension door and polymorph.

[Thunderous Mojo]

IMO a party of all druids would be even stronger for this type of game (2 Shepherd 2 Moon). Now everybody can short rest almost at will via Meld Into Stone .

Classic! The whole party has the Herbalism Tool Proficiency, and stops
to get Meld into Stone(d), together.✌️

[Waazraath]

In this case I'd always include a warlock in the party, for scouting with improved (and invisible) familiar. Have at least 1 character provide temp hp for the entire party (shepard druid, inspiring leader feat, whatever), and preferably also a Cleric upcast aid for everybody all the time. Open every door and chest with a mage hand, or a critter (summon / undead / pet).
I'd also always go for an emergency button for each character, like misty step, accessed by race or feat when needed.

[Eldariel]

Wizard is probably the best bet. Use positioning and your ablative defenses. Numeric defenses are nice (the suggested Pally is pretty tough and having one in a party can be convenient especially against enemies who spam save-or-X effects like Bodaks or whatever) but the toughest guy goes down in a single round to appropriate enemies. Best bets for survivability:
- Scouting ability: this is the most important and why you should have cantrips, spells and minions to this end if you wanna live. Anyone dies in a well set trap so you need to be sure you won't enter those.
- Good Perception-modifier (Wizard has familiar so they get this practically for free where others need to put a feat and a skill and a high Wis-score or Expertise here)
- Ability to avoid surprise
- Ability to avoid aberrant rolls (criticals from enemy and poor saving throws)
- Resistance to saving throws
- Ability to deflect attacks
- Ability to disable extremely dangerous enemies quickly to avoid deadification
- Ability to put meatwalls between you and the enemy

In order, I'd suggest:
- Alert-feat
- Lucky-feat
- Resilient-feat (ergo, be Variant Human: you need all the feats you can get)

- Get a familiar (the cheapest way to get reasonable Passive Perception and one that has strong Darkvision too in the Owl)
- Have minionmancy (Wizard's best bets are Animate Dead, or if that's problematic, Tiny Servant)
- Fight at range
- Use cantrips and rituals to cover your resting and have as many advantages as possible for combat (carry around soil with Mold Earth to use as cover, use Minor Illusion for safe spots before you see enemies, travel on Phantom Steeds and rest in Tiny Huts even inside safe zones, etc.)
- Use disabling spells in combat
- Never engage in melee and avoid being in spell/effect range for enemies
- Go prone whenever engaging ranged enemies at range


Vuman Wizard 5 is pretty well set. Before that point too, but level 5 is the point where you are able to ignore most things. Probably Chronurgist: those two rerolls coupled with Int to Initiative mean you will act first most of the time and you have an extra layer of safety. Not quite as strong offensively as Diviner but the Int to Initiative and higher level abilities are the difference makers. Not to mention Dunamancy: Gift of Alacrity + 16 Dex + 16 Int + Alert = +11 + 1d8 to Initiative. And then you roll the d20. This means you'll rarely need to waste resources on acting first; your minimum roll is 13 and that's rather unlikely to occur.

Obviously your stats should be Int > Dex > Con. 16 Dex and 16 Int give you passable AC too and 15 Con means Res: Con will push you to 16 on level 8 where your defensive scaling is complete. Lucky is more important to avoid key crits and saving throw failures and to enable Counterspell more reliably so it has to wait. While your other stats will be dog**** you'll at least have Wis save proficiency helping you out, which coupled with Lucky and Chronurgist makes you reasonably able to make your saves.


Cleric and Druid are both also doable but ultimately Wizard rituals and spells are a huge survivability enhancer. You really don't want to get surprised and when you do, you want to be at the ready to disable the surprisers before they get to mess you up, and to position so that you don't get hit in melee.

If I got to build a whole party, it'd be:
- Lore Bard
- Chronurgist Wizard
- Shepherd Druid [Moon would be nice for 2-4 but Shepherd is what you want for 5-20 and it isn't bad in 1-4 either - getting a stack of temporary HP for the party on 2 is really nice and it makes the non-Moon Wildshape kinda work there]
- Arcana Cleric [though there's something to be said for Grave too]

Minimise randomness and maximise your ability to disable enemies before they can pose a meaningful threat. Also maximum minionmancy [Lore Bard should also be picking up Animate Dead or Conjure Animals on 6].

[Droppeddead]

Why is no one recommending totem barb(bear)?
Or any barb for that matter?
Really asking cause I feel I am missing something.

Bearbarians are really good at individual surviving but they don't really bring anything that helps other characters survive.

Question for OP: When you say that you get banished when you die, does that mean that any resurrecting spells are more or less useless or is it more "when you can't be brought back to life anymore"?

[da newt]

Be smart enough to retreat.

[MaxWilson]

Be smart enough to retreat.

^This. So much.

Also be smart enough to reconnoiter things in advance if you can.

[KorvinStarmast]

Artillerist with a healing cannon Is awesome, Yes.


I'm curious as to why you suggest a Rogue? I don't find them especially valuable in any role. Expertise and the Exploration bit of finding traps, disarming traps, picking locks, etc. (Bards can't get tool expertise, just skill expertise IIRC)
Rogue also deals some nice focus fire on selected targets. If you play as a team, you set up the rogue for attacks with advantage or an adjacent ally ... but I won't disagree with sliding in "Lore Bard" for "Rogue" for the skill monkey role since you can get some more heals from the Bard.
There is something to be said for applying damage; I have found that a bard is not a great damage dealer until later on, but can help the party get by in a lot of situations.

The previously mentioned "chain lock scout" is a great fit for slot 4 (could be anyone)

[Eldariel]

Expertise and the Exploration bit of finding traps, disarming traps, picking locks, etc. (Bards can't get tool expertise, just skill expertise IIRC)

While Bard can't get Expertise in Thieves' Tools specifically, they can get Expertise in all the relevant skills and they have access to Enhance Ability and even potentially Skill Empowerment for the critical rolls so ultimately a Bard is at least as good as a Rogue when it comes down to the wire because they are better able to buff their skills with resources.

[Dork_Forge]

While Bard can't get Expertise in Thieves' Tools specifically, they can get Expertise in all the relevant skills and they have access to Enhance Ability and even potentially Skill Empowerment for the critical rolls so ultimately a Bard is at least as good as a Rogue when it comes down to the wire because they are better able to buff their skills with resources.

Skill Empowerment is a 5th level spell and has no bearing on using Thieves' Tools, Enhance Ability can certainly be nice but runs into the issue of both 1)being an opportunity cost on a spells known caster and 2)requiring a resource that you may or may not have at the time or need later on.

A Bard is a great choice for a skill based character, but they excel at social situations primarily and being competent to some degree otherwise, the Rogue on the otherhand excels at being a specialist, especially in the Dex arena (reinforced by getting their Expertises far earlier, an additional ASI and if playing at those levels, Reliable Talent).

You have to invest quite a bit to get as good as a Rogue is with Thieve's tools and if the game is 11+ it's likely you'll never be as good at it unless you invest to a large degree to achieve it.

[Techcaliber]

Question for OP: When you say that you get banished when you die, does that mean that any resurrecting spells are more or less useless or is it more "when you can't be brought back to life anymore"?

At this time I can’t answer that, as he’s still getting details figured out. Hopefully, if we have access to them, he’ll allow the use of them.

[Merudo]

Skill Empowerment is a 5th level spell and has no bearing on using Thieves' Tools, Enhance Ability can certainly be nice but runs into the issue of both 1)being an opportunity cost on a spells known caster and 2)requiring a resource that you may or may not have at the time or need later on.

A Bard is a great choice for a skill based character, but they excel at social situations primarily and being competent to some degree otherwise, the Rogue on the otherhand excels at being a specialist, especially in the Dex arena (reinforced by getting their Expertises far earlier, an additional ASI and if playing at those levels, Reliable Talent).

You have to invest quite a bit to get as good as a Rogue is with Thieve's tools and if the game is 11+ it's likely you'll never be as good at it unless you invest to a large degree to achieve it.

Any character can grab Thieves's Tools proficiency, for essentially free.

So, for levels 1-8, the main advantage of being a Rogue is a +2 / +3 from Expertise when using Thieves's Tools.

Now, Bard/Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer all get access to Enhance Ability, which can provide advantage on any Dexterity check, for roughly a +5 when using Thieves's Tool, Stealth, and Sleight of Hand.

In addition, a Bard can use Bardic Inspiration for an average of +3.5 / +4.5 to a skill check. Clerics and Druids can cast Guidance, for a very spammable +2.5 to a skill check.

Traps and locked doors don't come that often anyhow, and when they do, they often can be bypassed by other means.

So the bonus a Rogue gets from being Expert in Thieves's Tools is relatively minor, easily replicable, and rarely of significance.

I might consider a Rogue a good pick in a trap-heavy campaign (Tomb of Horror), but that's it.

[Eldariel]

Any character can grab Thieves's Tools proficiency, for essentially free.

So, for levels 1-8, the main advantage of being a Rogue is a +2 / +3 from Expertise when using Thieves's Tools.

Now, Bard/Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer all get access to Enhance Ability, which can provide advantage on any Dexterity check, for roughly a +5 when using Thieves's Tool, Stealth, and Sleight of Hand.

In addition, a Bard can use Bardic Inspiration for an average of +3.5 / +4.5 to a skill check. Clerics and Druids can cast Guidance, for a very spammable +2.5 to a skill check.

Traps and locked doors don't come that often anyhow, and when they do, they often can be bypassed by other means.

So the bonus a Rogue gets from being Expert in Thieves's Tools is relatively minor, easily replicable, and rarely of significance.

I might consider a Rogue a good pick in a trap-heavy campaign (Tomb of Horror), but that's it.

The more important part is finding the trap anyways. To that end you need good Investigation and Perception. Observant and Expertise help but even there, Enhance Ability pushes the Bard over the top. Finding the trap is the key part: after that you can figure out how to deal with it and what buffs to use. Remember that Enhance Ability lasts an hour too and magic traps can also be disabled via. Int: Arcana.

[Dork_Forge]

Any character can grab Thieves's Tools proficiency, for essentially free.

You can get it from a background, this isn't free, it's investing your background in it instead of a different tool or skill.


So, for levels 1-8, the main advantage of being a Rogue is a +2 / +3 from Expertise when using Thieves's Tools.

A Rogue is a Dex primary/SAD class, it won't just benefit from Expertise, but also a higher Dex modifier (there's also multiple subclass features that enhance Thieves' Tools use).


Now, Bard/Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer all get access to Enhance Ability, which can provide advantage on any Dexterity check, for roughly a +5 when using Thieves's Tool, Stealth, and Sleight of Hand.


They can have Enhance Ability (an opportunity cost) and then they need to invest a 2nd level spell to use it, until later in tier 2 a 2nd level spell is a significant cost. Just because you could possible bridge a gap to a degree with a spell, doesn't make it as good as actually being good at that thing (espeically since you can just roll low twice with advantage...)


In addition, a Bard can use Bardic Inspiration for an average of +3.5 / +4.5 to a skill check. Clerics and Druids can cast Guidance, for a very spammable +2.5 to a skill check.

Bards can't inspire themselves, so who are they inspiring? (using more resources to bridge a deficit isn't making this more convincing btw)

Yes Guidance is an insanely good cantrip.


Traps and locked doors don't come that often anyhow, and when they do, they often can be bypassed by other means.

That is a wildly campaign dependent thing, there's no basis for that claim. Here's an annecdote: I've seen and used locked doors and traps in every single campaign I've played in, ran or watched. I've never seen Enhance Ability in actual play and seen it only in one streamed game.

Even if something can be bypassed via other means, that doesn't mean that the bypass is of equal desirability (might generate noise or force the party down a path of greater resistance).



So the bonus a Rogue gets from being Expert in Thieves's Tools is relatively minor, easily replicable, and rarely of significance.

In your opinion, but you also handwave the fact that all you've presented are dice based benefits. Static benefits are always going to be better than dice based since you can actually count on them. When failure can mean negative consequences (like setting off what you're trying to disarm) then that reliability matters.

Though you at no point addressed Reliable Talent? What tricks are the casters pulling out to easily replicate that level of success?



I might consider a Rogue a good pick in a trap-heavy campaign (Tomb of Horror), but that's it.


So you're also reducing the value of a Rogue down to their ability to disarm traps? That's absurdly reductionist but here as some examples of times a Rogue would usually be good:

-Any campaign that allows the use of skills (so pretty much all campaigns)
-Any campaign where resource management matters (so any campaign that's not a 5 minute work day)
-Any campaign that would benefit from scouting

That's not even getting into the diverse abilties available to their subclasses, a Rogue is rarely ever a bad pick for a gameand is usually a pretty strong one unless they're completely mismanaged.


The more important part is finding the trap anyways. To that end you need good Investigation and Perception. Observant and Expertise help but even there, Enhance Ability pushes the Bard over the top. Finding the trap is the key part: after that you can figure out how to deal with it and what buffs to use. Remember that Enhance Ability lasts an hour too and magic traps can also be disabled via. Int: Arcana.

The Bard needs a heavy investment into Charisma (completely useless in this particular situation), a moderate investment in Dex and Con, so are we just ignoring how stretched a Bard would be to have positive modifiers in Int and Wis? Or that typically a Bard will want Expertise in things other than investigation or Arcana unless for some reason they're building themselves to be good at trap hunting?

You certainly can try an Arcana to disable magical traps, if the traps are magical and if using Arcana is actually betterfor the party.

[Merudo]

You can get it from a background, this isn't free, it's investing your background in it instead of a different tool or skill.


You can customize your background. So proficiency in Thieves' Tools only cost you a language or tool proficiency, and those tend to be more or less useless.

Nearly all my characters with 14+ Dex pick up Thieves' Tools proficiency.



A Rogue is a Dex primary/SAD class, it won't just benefit from Expertise, but also a higher Dex modifier (there's also multiple subclass features that enhance Thieves' Tools use).


Many other characters invest primarily in Dex, and have Dex at their secondary / tertiary stat.

As for subclass abilities that improve Thieves' Tools - Legerdemain is indeed neat to lockpick at range.



They can have Enhance Ability (an opportunity cost) and then they need to invest a 2nd level spell to use it, until later in tier 2 a 2nd level spell is a significant cost. Just because you could possible bridge a gap to a degree with a spell, doesn't make it as good as actually being good at that thing


I'd argue that the Rogue sacrifices far more than spell slots for his abilities to be decent at disarm traps: the Rogue has anemic damage, low defense, no control, and little utility.



Bards can't inspire themselves, so who are they inspiring?


Any character with halfway decent Dex and Thieves' Tool proficiencies.


I've seen and used locked doors and traps in every single campaign I've played in, ran or watched.


And I've never see a door or trap that couldn't be bypassed.



I've never seen Enhance Ability in actual play and seen it only in one streamed game.


Most of the Bards out there should probably learn the spell. And any Cleric or Druid worth its salt will prepare it on social occasions.

Rogues only look good if you've never been exposed to experienced spellcasters.



Though you at no point addressed Reliable Talent? What tricks are the casters pulling out to easily replicate that level of success?


I don't really consider level 11+ when evaluating classes. Very few play at levels that high.



here as some examples of times a Rogue would usually be good:

-Any campaign that allows the use of skills (so pretty much all campaigns)
-Any campaign that would benefit from scouting



Very few skills come up often in campaigns (basically, Athletics, Stealth, Perception, and Persuasion). Most character can cover 3 out of 4 of them.

Druid, Wizard and Warlock (Pact of Chains) are much better at scouting.

[AttilatheYeon]

Start Hill Dwarf

Level 1 barbarian.
Level 2 druid.
Level 3 druid (moon)
Level 4 barbarian.
Level 5 barbarian (bear or zealot)
Level 6 barbarian (dwarven fortitude)
.
.
.
Never die

[Dork_Forge]

You can customize your background. So proficiency in Thieves' Tools only cost you a language or tool proficiency, and those tend to be more or less useless.

Highly dependent on campaign, I've got a Druid in one of my games loving the ability to craft healing potions at half cost.



Nearly all my characters with 14+ Dex pick up Thieves' Tools proficiency.

And that's a useful thing to do, they will always be worse at it than a Dex primary class, Rogue or Artificer though (and that's okay...).


Many other characters invest primarily in Dex, and have Dex at their secondary / tertiary stat.

Yes and only one Dex based class can get expertise in them, again many characters can do decently or well with TT, that's not the kind of bar a specialist is aiming to beat.



As for subclass abilities that improve Thieves' Tools - Legerdemain is indeed neat to lockpick at range.

Or disarm traps at a safe distance, then there's the Thief that can do so as a bonus action too.


I'd argue that the Rogue sacrifices far more than spell slots for his abilities to be decent at disarm traps: the Rogue has anemic damage, low defense, no control, and little utility.

I'm stunned that this is your view, under what definition is a Rogue's damage anemic? How is Cunning Action, Uncanny Dodge and Evasion low defense? No control and little utility are also flat out wrong. What are you using as a benchmark here for any of this?


Any character with halfway decent Dex and Thieves' Tool proficiencies.

...And they'd be better off inspiring a Rogue, these aren't exclusive.


And I've never see a door or trap that couldn't be bypassed.

Just because you can bypass something doesn't mean that there isn't a cost to doing so.


Most of the Bards out there should probably learn the spell. And any Cleric or Druid worth its salt will prepare it on social occasions.

A spell known on something like that is pretty significant and locks and traps are more dungeon based than social typically. Though it's also worth noting that once you cast it you better hope you maintain concentration on it or that all the checks needed fall into that neat one hour window, you don't need to concentrate on something else in the mean time etc. Spells are a patch or a stop gap, they're rarely ever as good or approaching as good as a real ability.



Rogues only look good if you've never been exposed to experienced spellcasters.

Besides a Rogue being able to be a spellcaster, that's just caster elitist nonsense. I'm getting a very strong shrodingers Wizard vibe from your reply and I hope that I'm wrong.


I don't really consider level 11+ when evaluating classes. Very few play at levels that high.

When this came up Eladriel originally suggested Skill Empowerment, a 5th level spell. Though the lower level you look at, typically the worse the caster looks as slots and available spells drop.



Very few skills come up often in campaigns (basically, Athletics, Stealth, Perception, and Persuasion). Most character can cover 3 out of 4 of them.

That's it? You don't think it's common for players to lie to NPCs,try to assertain their intentions? Dex based players to use Acrobatics to escape grapples? No tracking? To borrow a word, that list seems rather anemic.


Druid, Wizard and Warlock (Pact of Chains) are much better at scouting.

This is where again we will greatly diverge in opinion, getting an Owl familiar is not the be all, end all of scouting. Especially if there's fearsome obstacles in the way, like a closed door.

Druid isn't bad at scouting, a Chain familiar with investments is also good.

[Samayu]

Cleric. Play a healer and everyone will want to keep you alive. Plus, you'll be able to keep them alive, and you want them to stay alive, to increase your own chances of survival.

[Toadkiller]

Don’t leave town. Specifically, stay in a friendly temple or someplace with lots of healing. “That sounds scary, I will wait here.”

[Gtdead]

There are layers to survivability. Anyone can claim "have alert, high initiative, expeditious retreat to get the **** out, use dodge action" etc. But then the question remains: If everyone does this, then who is going to deal the damage?

If you ask me, the best case scenario at lvl 1, is wizard winning initiative and taking out half the enemies with sleep. This already sets the party for success. For this to happen, you actually need casters with super high initiative and access to the spell. So that's that.

The next best thing is for the party to kill the enemy passively through attacks of opportunity and persistent effects. This is the domain of feats like PAM/Sentinel/Warcaster booming blade (reaction optimization in general), cover and smart positioning. If your meatshields can't have reliable AoOs, then they have a problem early that needs to be fixed with resource expenditure. Later it doesn't matter that much but thankfully these feats do more than just helping with AoOs. It's also the domain of obscurement effects taking archers out of the equation (although these will most likely come into play later).

Then it's the actual numerical advantage (this becomes progressively more important as you level, but for T1 things are fairly simple. You don't have to deal with teleportation, control spells etc). High AC is useful for frontliners, but not for the wizard that can stay out of range or behind cover. Trying to optimize the weak points usually has high opportunity costs (in this case it's one sleep less per day, or a dip for heavy armor proficiency that messes with your spell progression). There are situations where these things are useful, but they aren't optimal. It depends on the party makeup and what roles have to be filled, but when talking about survivability, I don't want my wizard to frontline, even if he has 40 AC. I want my frontliner to have high AC, highly optimized action economy and be a great platform for offensive buffing or have enough output to not need buffing at all. Wizard can be some of these things, but not all of these things unless he spends a huge amount of resources to do it (possible at higher levels, not the case at Tier 1).

Party being able to perform at range is also very important. If you control the engagement there are much you can do to gain an advantage.

If you build around these ideas you don't have much to worry about. Eventually you get access to persistent effects that change the action economy of dealing damage. Things like flaming sphere, spiritual weapon, spirit guardians. Complement these with high numerical defenses and optimized attacks of opportunity, and the enemies will just die by themselves.

On the other hand, a party is as strong as the weakest member. If 3 out of 4 are survivable, but the last player can't take the heat, then the party wastes resources/actions to save the weak member and creates openings for the enemy to exploit. There are ways to mitigate this with things like Healing Word, Familiar giving goodberries/potions etc, but it's very inefficient. You want your bonus action to be used on spiritual weapon and your familiar to use dragon's breath or help action (or even stay safely away from the fight). Not reviving fallen team mates that could avoid this fate all together by making smarter choices. These things are good in a clutch scenario where the **** hits the fan for some reason, but if you use them too often then something is very wrong with the party.