ways to boost sla caster level?

[newguydude1]

ways to boost sla caster level? do +caster level stuff work with slas?

[Doctor Despair]

Well, first of all, there's literally Boost Spell-Like Ability (BoVD), although it does DCs, not caster level.

There are also some options (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22927857&postcount=2) listed (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22930512&postcount=5) here. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22932158&postcount=6)

[newguydude1]

Well, first of all, there's literally Boost Spell-Like Ability (BoVD), although it does DCs, not caster level.

There are also some options (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22927857&postcount=2) listed (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22930512&postcount=5) here. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22932158&postcount=6)

where is the rule that says caster level boosters dont work with slas btw? i wanna look at it.

[Dunsparce]

"Practiced Magic" from Dungeon Magazine #116 is effectively Practiced Spellcaster/Manifester/ect but for Spell-like Abilities. Requires the ability to cast spell-like abilities(obviously) and 4 ranks in Spellcraft to learn.

[Anthrowhale]

Primordial Giant (the template) gives +1 to SLA caster levels.

SLAs are not spells, so anything which gives a bonus to spell caster level is not relevant to SLAs by default.

[Doctor Despair]

Primordial Giant (the template) gives +1 to SLA caster levels.

SLAs are not spells, so anything which gives a bonus to spell caster level is not relevant to SLAs by default.

Primordial also gives at-will SLAs which are pretty strong (such as invisibility or levitate, if I remember correctly).

[newguydude1]

Primordial Giant (the template) gives +1 to SLA caster levels.

SLAs are not spells, so anything which gives a bonus to spell caster level is not relevant to SLAs by default.

so consumptive field says

"Additionally, your effective caster level increases by one per death caused by this spell, to a maximum increase of half your original caster level, improving spell effects that are dependent on caster level. (This increase in effective caster level does not grant you access to more spells, and it does not increase the duration of this spell.)"

it doesnt say spell caster level. it says effective caster level.

[Anthrowhale]

so consumptive field says

"Additionally, your effective caster level increases by one per death caused by this spell, to a maximum increase of half your original caster level, improving spell effects that are dependent on caster level. (This increase in effective caster level does not grant you access to more spells, and it does not increase the duration of this spell.)"

it doesnt say spell caster level. it says effective caster level.

I could see a DM agreeing that this is any caster level for spell effects (which would exclude supernatural effects). I could also see a DM arguing that in the context of casting a spell this is about spell caster level.

[newguydude1]

I could see a DM agreeing that this is any caster level for spell effects (which would exclude supernatural effects). I could also see a DM arguing that in the context of casting a spell this is about spell caster level.

the one who doesnt have raw loses. caster level is caster level. so unless somewhere the rules say slas are unaffected by caster level increase then slas are affected by caster level increase

"For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is: "

slas use caster level.

but it seems like everyone on this forum thinks +caster level doesnt affect slas, so theres probably a rule we're missing somewhere?

[Doctor Despair]

"For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have.

The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name.

If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice.

The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is: "

SLA's "designated caster levels" (a different key term than "caster level") are determined by HD, not caster level. Increasing your actual caster level shouldn't increase SLA designated caster level unless the ability increasing it specifically says it increases it for the purposes of SLAs.

[sleepyphoenixx]

caster level is caster level.
Not really. Most things that increase CL either specify spells (Bead of Karma), arcane/divine spells (Ring of Arcane Power) or has some other restriction like only boosting spells with a certain descriptor.

I agree there's no reason why the CL increases that don't specify in that manner shouldn't work on SLA's, but the only one i know of is the Orange Ioun Stone.
Any others i can think of have restrictions that exclude SLA's.

[Biggus]

so consumptive field says

"Additionally, your effective caster level increases by one per death caused by this spell, to a maximum increase of half your original caster level, improving spell effects that are dependent on caster level. (This increase in effective caster level does not grant you access to more spells, and it does not increase the duration of this spell.)"

it doesnt say spell caster level. it says effective caster level.


the one who doesnt have raw loses. caster level is caster level. so unless somewhere the rules say slas are unaffected by caster level increase then slas are affected by caster level increase


If we're going to be pedantic about RAW, if Consumptive Field affected SLAs as well as spellcasting, it would say "caster levels" (plural) because your SLA caster level is separate from your spellcaster level.

[noob]

If we're going to be pedantic about RAW, if Consumptive Field affected SLAs as well as spellcasting, it would say "caster levels" (plural) because your SLA caster level is separate from your spellcaster level.

But then it would also work weird when you have multiple regular casting classes.
Can you cast consumptive field for each casting class you have and benefit from an independent boost for each casting class?

[newguydude1]

If we're going to be pedantic about RAW, if Consumptive Field affected SLAs as well as spellcasting, it would say "caster levels" (plural) because your SLA caster level is separate from your spellcaster level.

so is your arcane and divine caster levels.


SLA's "designated caster levels" (a different key term than "caster level") are determined by HD, not caster level. Increasing your actual caster level shouldn't increase SLA designated caster level unless the ability increasing it specifically says it increases it for the purposes of SLAs.

no theyre not determined by hd either. theyre determined by designation or hd. designated caster level is unaffected by hd increase or decrease.

there isnt an "actual" caster level. a mystic theurge doesnt have an "actual caster level" that is used as a base before calculating his arcane and divine caster levels. you have caster level for arcane, caster level for divine, caster level for each designated sla, and caster level for undesignated sla.

so unless the bonus specficially specifies "spellcasting level" or "caster level of divine spells" or "caster level of arcane spells", it affects slas too, because they have caster level too.

unless there is a rule we are all missing that says otherwise.


Not really. Most things that increase CL either specify spells (Bead of Karma), arcane/divine spells (Ring of Arcane Power) or has some other restriction like only boosting spells with a certain descriptor.

I agree there's no reason why the CL increases that don't specify in that manner shouldn't work on SLA's, but the only one i know of is the Orange Ioun Stone.
Any others i can think of have restrictions that exclude SLA's.

yeah thats what im thinking too but googling this site, everyone thinks this is wrong. so im asking for the rules they are basing this on.

[daremetoidareyo]

"Practiced Magic" from Dungeon Magazine #116 is effectively Practiced Spellcaster/Manifester/ect but for Spell-like Abilities. Requires the ability to cast spell-like abilities(obviously) and 4 ranks in Spellcraft to learn.

It's in shackled city adventure path, which was compiled by piazo in a hardback. Licensed and copyrighted by WOTC. It is as legit as dragon compendium. If you're entering a board comp, private message the chair and ask if it is a legal source.

[AnimeTheCat]

the one who doesnt have raw loses. caster level is caster level. so unless somewhere the rules say slas are unaffected by caster level increase then slas are affected by caster level increase

"For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is: "

slas use caster level.

but it seems like everyone on this forum thinks +caster level doesnt affect slas, so theres probably a rule we're missing somewhere?

I think this is simply wrong. The designated caster level is designated in the text of the SLA. Look at the Gnome SLA section:


Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day - speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute). A gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities:
1/day - dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + gnome's Cha modifier + spell level. See the spell descriptions on pages 216, 235, and 264, respectively.


From that, you can see where a SLA gets its designated caster level (my bolded text in the description above). Look at the SLA text of any other creature as well.

Aboleths - "Effective caster level 16th"
Angel, Astral Deva - "Caster level 12th"
Angel, Planetar - "Caster level 17th"

Do I need to go on? That's what the text you quoted is talking about. A level 17 Gnomish Bard still casts speak with animals, dancing lights, ghost sound and prestidigitation at Caster Level 1, even though their Bard Caster level is 17.

SLAs use their own caster level. That caster level is either defined in the SLA text or is equal to the creature's HD.

as for how this interacts with Consumptive Field, I couldn't tell you. Seems more to be an issue with Consumptive Field than with SLAs or Caster Levels to me though.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If the spell-like ability in question qualifies for it, Supernatural Transformation boosts the CL up to your HD before other bonuses, although it becomes a supernatural ability.

[newguydude1]

as for how this interacts with Consumptive Field, I couldn't tell you. Seems more to be an issue with Consumptive Field than with SLAs or Caster Levels to me though.

i can, if the caster level bonus isnt specific to arcane, divine, infusion, spellcaster level, etc. then it applies to sla caster level as well since its still a caster level. consumptive field and orange ioun stone arent specific to anything like bead of karma or create magic tattoo is, so it boost caster level of slas.

unless someone corrects me with a relevant rule quote.

[Thurbane]

It's in shackled city adventure path, which was compiled by piazo in a hardback. Licensed and copyrighted by WOTC. It is as legit as dragon compendium. If you're entering a board comp, private message the chair and ask if it is a legal source.

I've used it in Villainous Comp before.

[Darrin]

There are also some options (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22927857&postcount=2) listed (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22930512&postcount=5) here. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22932158&postcount=6)

I found some additional options while working on my Polly Aimery (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24744119&postcount=47) build for IC E6 Appetizer XXVI (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?619170-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-E6-Appetizer-Edition-(Round-XXVI)):

1) The adept spirit spell (Magic of Incarnum p. 98) gives a +1 insight bonus to caster level. This requires the Incarnum Spellshaping feat or someone who can cast incarnum spells. Presumably, you could also get it as a spell-trigger or spell-completion item.

2) The Mausoleum of Icy Fear (Planar Handbook p. 176). This is a planar touchstone site, so you'll need some method of planar travel, the Planar Touchstone or Touchstone feat, and a touchstone key of some sort. You have to deal with the guards (a grab bag of demons and/or undead), but with a little scouting, you can determine what you're up against (the guards don't change for a year or so), and come up with a way to disable or circumvent them. After that, you'll want some cold resistance to deal with the 5d6 cold damage. Once you've earned the higher order ability, you still have to kill a creature, and make sure it fails a DC 14 Fort save, and if it does, you get +1 CL for 10 min/HD of the target creature.

3) Terran Brandy (Book of Vile Darkness p. 43). For just 500 GP, you get a +2 alchemical bonus to caster level for 1d20+20 minutes. Secondary effect is 2 Con damage (hello Strongheart Vest!), no side effects, and the Addiction rating is Low (avoidable with a DC 6 Fort save).

[mabriss lethe]

The Draconic Power feat doesn't specify. It just says "+1 to your caster level" but it requires Draconic Heritage and either a level of sorcerer or the Dragontouched feat.

While it can be argued that the feat assumes that it will be applied to the sorcerer levels it normally requires, the text of the feat doesn't specify and with the addition of dragontouched, you can access the feat from any class or simply via racial HD.

Likewise, if you're looking for improving CL for warlock/DFA invocations. Fey Power and Fiendish Power each improve invocation CL, and each requiring their respective racial Heritage Feat as a prerequisite.

[newguydude1]

spell wise its
suffer the flesh +5
adept spirit +1
consumptive field +half
greater consumptive field + half
for a total of double your designated cl + 6




I've used it in Villainous Comp before.

mr. thurbane. your threads i found via google and the doctor despairs links are the ones that made me think you cant use orange ioun stone to boost sla caster level.

so what is your reasoning that you think they dont work on slas? i remember you making a list of things that boost sla caster level yet none of the +caster level items and spells were listed.

[Thurbane]

mr. thurbane. your threads i found via google and the doctor despairs links are the ones that made me think you cant use orange ioun stone to boost sla caster level.

so what is your reasoning that you think they dont work on slas? i remember you making a list of things that boost sla caster level yet none of the +caster level items and spells were listed.

Without seeing the particular thread, not sure. I know I have a personal preference for not relying on item based solutions?


Orange Prism; +1 caster level; 30,000 gp

I see no reason that wouldn't work with SLAs?

[newguydude1]

Without seeing the particular thread, not sure. I know I have a personal preference for not relying on item based solutions?



I see no reason that wouldn't work with SLAs?

awesome! so unless someone here objects, im gonna say this thread proved that sla cl can be boosted by +caster level.

good great yay

[Thurbane]

awesome! so unless someone here objects, im gonna say this thread proved that sla cl can be boosted by +caster level.

good great yay

Well, yeah. AFAIK, anything that boosts caster levels, without specifying that it only works with spells (which some abilities do), then it should work fine on SLAs.

[Ramza00]

If the spell-like ability in question qualifies for it, Supernatural Transformation boosts the CL up to your HD before other bonuses, although it becomes a supernatural ability.

Always a favorite of mine.

-----

Not what the OP asked for. But Supernatural Transformation Feat+ 1 LA of Half Fey (which precisely allows you to only do 1 level, and you do not need this level to be at the start of the build per the website) + Level Buy Off.

Gives you a Spell Like Ability at Will Charm Person which Supernatural Transformation makes a Su. Sus get both a Save DC ability and have no material, somatic / visual, or verbal components. Thus an at will Jedi Mind Trick asking someone will you be my friend that they can never see and after they are your friend you do charisma checks if you want them to do anything that a friend would not normally do.

And since it is at will and there no real consequences of failure (for the person will not identify who was casting it and can't identify for it is pure Su) you just try again until it succeeds.

[AnimeTheCat]

spell wise its
suffer the flesh +5
adept spirit +1
consumptive field +half
greater consumptive field + half
for a total of double your designated cl + 6


I don't think Consumptive Field and Consumptive Field, Greater stack in the manner you've listed. Consumptive Field, Greater states that it functions like the spell Consumptive Field except as noted below, and the below only changes the HP at which a creature is affected, not the maximum your CL can improve to.

[newguydude1]

I don't think Consumptive Field and Consumptive Field, Greater stack in the manner you've listed. Consumptive Field, Greater states that it functions like the spell Consumptive Field except as noted below, and the below only changes the HP at which a creature is affected, not the maximum your CL can improve to.

the difference makes it a separate effect. and stacking rules say different effects that dont conflict stack. both give untyped bonus so i dont see why it wouldnt stack.

[AnimeTheCat]

the difference makes it a separate effect. and stacking rules say different effects that dont conflict stack. both give untyped bonus so i dont see why it wouldnt stack.

They don't make a separate effect. First line of the Consumptive Field, Greater spell:



This spell functions like Consumptive Field, except that the field affects all creatures in the area with 9 hit points or fewer.


Consumptive Field, Greater doesn't produce a different effect from Consumptive Field. It produces the same effect. The only thing that changes is what creatures it affects. That's it. That's all the spell does differently.

[newguydude1]

They don't make a separate effect. First line of the Consumptive Field, Greater spell:



Consumptive Field, Greater doesn't produce a different effect from Consumptive Field. It produces the same effect. The only thing that changes is what creatures it affects. That's it. That's all the spell does differently.

r u srs? you do realize your saying every single spell in the entire game that have lesser, normal, and greater versions are all the same effect right?

im sorry your gonna have to convince me that an aura that kills everyone under -1 and an aura that kills everyone under 9 hp are the same effect.

[magicalmagicman]

They don't make a separate effect. First line of the Consumptive Field, Greater spell:



Consumptive Field, Greater doesn't produce a different effect from Consumptive Field. It produces the same effect. The only thing that changes is what creatures it affects. That's it. That's all the spell does differently.

So mirror image and greater mirror image are the same effects?


Stacking Effects
Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).

Different Bonus Names
The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. A bonus that isn’t named stacks with any bonus.

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths
In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.

Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant
Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion.

Multiple Mental Control Effects
Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys

Could you point to which rule you are invoking to make this claim?

[AnimeTheCat]

r u srs? you do realize your saying every single spell in the entire game that have lesser, normal, and greater versions are all the same effect right?

im sorry your gonna have to convince me that an aura that kills everyone under -1 and an aura that kills everyone under 9 hp are the same effect.

That part of the spell is different, that it kills everyone under 9 hp vs -1 hp. Otherwise, the spells are not different. That's quite literally what the text of the spell says.

EDIT:

So mirror image and greater mirror image are the same effects?

Could you point to which rule you are invoking to make this claim?

Same effect with differing results. For both Mirror Image vs Mirror Image, Greater and Consumptive Field vs Consumptive Field, Greater.

[newguydude1]

That part of the spell is different, that it kills everyone under 9 hp vs -1 hp. Otherwise, the spells are not different. That's quite literally what the text of the spell says.

well which is it. is it the same or is it different? if a part of it is different then its different no? how can something different be the same?


Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths
In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.

r u saying the two spells are identical spells? do i have to start copying and pasting dictionary definitions here?


Same effect with differing results. For both Mirror Image vs Mirror Image, Greater and Consumptive Field vs Consumptive Field, Greater.


Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

is mirror image and greater mirror image the same spell?

[AnimeTheCat]

well which is it. is it the same or is it different? if a part of it is different then its different no? how can something different be the same?

r u saying the two spells are identical spells? do i have to start copying and pasting dictionary definitions here?

is mirror image and greater mirror image the same spell?

I'm not going to argue with you when you're being rude.

[newguydude1]

I'm not going to argue with you when you're being rude.

sorry for being rude. wasnt intentional.

[magicalmagicman]

Same effect with differing results. For both Mirror Image vs Mirror Image, Greater and Consumptive Field vs Consumptive Field, Greater.

So according to you, casting Mirror Image after Greater Mirror Image results in all the GMI images disappearing, and once the last MI image disappears, all of the GMI images reappear? Instead of, you know, both GMI and MI images existing at the same time?

If a creature with both Consumptive Field and Greater Consumptive Field reduces another creature to 9hp, the creature passes its saving throw, and then later its hp is reduced to -1. Your saying the creature doesn't need to make a 2nd saving throw?

I find these scenarios farfetched. And as newguydude1 pointed out, the RAW is not on your side. Greater versions of spells are not the same or identical spells of their lesser versions.

[newguydude1]

So according to you, casting Mirror Image after Greater Mirror Image results in all the GMI images disappearing, and once the last MI image disappears, all of the GMI images reappear? Instead of, you know, both GMI and MI images existing at the same time?

If a creature with both Consumptive Field and Greater Consumptive Field reduces another creature to 9hp, the creature passes its saving throw, and then later its hp is reduced to -1. Your saying the creature doesn't need to make a 2nd saving throw?

I find these scenarios farfetched. And as newguydude1 pointed out, the RAW is not on your side. Greater versions of spells are not the same or identical spells of their lesser versions.

not to mention the rule hes quoting is actually for polymorph. saying aura spells are like polymorph spells in regards to stacking is wrong.