Deepa [Boruto] vs Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez [Bleach] (spoilers) also Superman vs a Hollow [Archive]

Rynjin

2020-11-25, 06:10 PM

gooddragon1

2020-11-25, 07:32 PM

The issue with any vs battle involving Bleach is that Bleach has one of the most poorly written power systems in any manga/anime. There is absolutely no power scaling measure you can find save that one person will be stated by another person to be stronger than another person.

Feats are few and far between since all the biggest "feats" involve hitting somebody really hard and people exclaiming that this is impressive because the other person's armor is way strong (we promise).

So going by the things shown on screen, pretty much the biggest feat of strength is that somebody cuts a skyscraper in half pretty early on (Ichigo vs Kenpachi). We NEVER really see anything bigger than that.

So you tell me: can someone from a series with skyscraper cutting as its biggest feat really compete with the guy who can tow solar systems like some strongmen do with 18 wheelers?

Well, actually, the "theoretically strong hollow" is basically as strong as you need them to be. So how about, could a theoretically strong enough Arrancar contend with new 52 superman (whatever metric is easiest on timeline) with just the stock Arrancar powers (sonido, pesquisa, hierro, cero, bala, high speed regeneration, flight, and enhanced strength)? Or would they need to shore up their abilities in some way with a resurrecion ability to contend with supes?

Razade

2020-11-25, 07:46 PM

Pretty straight forward.
First fight, both conditions, Deepa. Grimm doesn't have an attack that hits at the molecular level. So Deepa can weather his attacks for a win.

Grimmjow has one of several attacks that outright vaporize things, his compliment of Cero. Not to mention he's stronger and faster than Deepa while also having incredibly strong armor himself and that's before he goes into his true form. I don't think Deepa has this one quite honestly, as Deepa was killed by falling derbies and his most powerful armor was broken by something that also doesn't hit at the molecular level. Gran Ray Cero is at least as powerful as the Super Compression Rasengan. Deepa would get schooled.

Rynjin

2020-11-25, 10:06 PM

Well, actually, the "theoretically strong hollow" is basically as strong as you need them to be. So how about, could a theoretically strong enough Arrancar contend with new 52 superman (whatever metric is easiest on timeline) with just the stock Arrancar powers (sonido, pesquisa, hierro, cero, bala, high speed regeneration, flight, and enhanced strength)? Or would they need to shore up their abilities in some way with a resurrecion ability to contend with supes?

If you say "here's a theoretical Arrancar as strong as Superman"...sure?

But none of them are shown as being anywhere near that level. It's like saying "could a Smurf as theoretically strong as Superman contend with Superman"; a meaningless metric because the question answers itself.

HolyDraconus

2020-11-25, 11:00 PM

Grimmjow has one of several attacks that outright vaporize things, his compliment of Cero. Not to mention he's stronger and faster than Deepa while also having incredibly strong armor himself and that's before he goes into his true form. I don't think Deepa has this one quite honestly, as Deepa was killed by falling derbies and his most powerful armor was broken by something that also doesn't hit at the molecular level. Gran Ray Cero is at least as powerful as the Super Compression Rasengan. Deepa would get schooled.

All forms of Rasengan explicitly hit at the molecular level as part of its attacks. Him being KO'd by debri was after the fact that he got hit with a super compressed version of an attack that explicitly hits at the molecular level. And he still would of tanked it if Sage jutsu wasn't tacked on it as well. Grimm doesn't have something that can add up to that. Deepa has this. Unlike Bleach, Naruto's scaling is somewhat seeable. And where are you getting Grimm's speed feats from?

Razade

2020-11-25, 11:08 PM

All forms of Rasengan explicitly hit at the molecular level as part of its attacks.

That's not true. No Rasengan hits at the molecular level for one. Explicitly or not. Only the Rasenshuriken is noted to hit on a cellular level. The Rasenshuriken is the only Rasengan that Tsunade asks Naruto to stop using because of this property. Chapter 346, page 11.

Him being KO'd by debri was after the fact that he got hit with a super compressed version of an attack that explicitly hits at the molecular level. And he still would of tanked it if Sage jutsu wasn't tacked on it as well. Grimm doesn't have something that can add up to that. Deepa has this. Unlike Bleach, Naruto's scaling is somewhat seeable.

Except, again, you're mistaken. The Rasengan does not hit on a molecular level. Gran Rey Cero is enough to completely destroy Las Noches as indicated by several Esapda. That's on par with a Rasengan and then some considering how massive Las Noches is. Not to mention all the other things that Grimmjow has going for him, which is plenty.

Also, I don't know how outright vaporizing things doesn't hit on a molecular level. It vaporizes them.

HolyDraconus

2020-11-25, 11:36 PM

T Gran Rey Cero is enough to completely destroy Las Noches as indicated by several Esapda. That's on par with a Rasengan and then some considering how massive Las Noches is. Not to mention all the other things that Grimmjow has going for him, which is plenty.
.

I have never seen or read a Gran Rey Cero destroying Las Noches. SAYING it can do something and actually DOING it is two different things.

Razade

2020-11-25, 11:52 PM

I have never seen or read a Gran Rey Cero destroying Las Noches. SAYING it can do something and actually DOING it is two different things.

Nowhere in Naruto is it said that all Rasengan destroys things on a molecular level, and if it does I'd love to know where in either Naruto or Boruto you read it because I don't ever recall reading it outside the Rasenshuriken (and that is also not on a molecular level. It's on a cellular level and I've already cited where that is) and I can't find that information on the wiki or a google search. Unlike that example however it is expressly stated by Ulquiorra that it is one of the rules of Las Noches. Chapter 345, page 9. The exact line is

"There are two things forbidden under the dome of Las Noches. One is the Gran Ray Cero that exists for the benefit of the Espada. The other is for Espada ranked Cuatro (4) and above to release because both are too powerful and could possibly destroy Las Noches itself."

That's all it takes. It's a rule in Las Noches not to do it so. They at least think it can do it. It doesn't need to be shown.

Not that it matters. Deepa doesn't have to be destroyed at the molecular level as you claim he needs to. A Gran Ray Cero, even if it can't destroy all of Los Noches as an expert on the power claims, is still on par with the Rasengan that hits Deepa. If not more so. It is enough to take him out.

Rynjin

2020-11-26, 01:20 AM

That claim doesn't matter even if it is correct, which runs into the same issue as all the other value claims in Bleach...where's the proof? They've clearly never done it, because Las Noches is still there. Hell, the implication by that very statement is that none of them have ever fired a Gran Ray Cero before since each of the Arrancar is like a few weeks old (in their current form) and never leave Las Noches, as far as we can tell, until they're introduced into the series. How can you be an "expert" of a power you only have a vague and ENTIRELY THEORETICAL grasp on the capabilities of?

But all of that is moot anyway. Grimmjow is 6, not 4 or above. He is exponentially weaker than the Arrancar above him (or so we're told).

Razade

2020-11-26, 01:34 AM

That claim doesn't matter even if it is correct,

How so? If a Gran Rey Cero can obliterate a palace as large as Las Noches I think that's in order of magnitude more than any Rasengen we've seen in Naruto. The claim that Rasengan destroys things on a molecular level is false. All I need to do is demonstrate Grimmjow has powers equal to the Rasengan which he does.

which runs into the same issue as all the other value claims in Bleach...where's the proof? They've clearly never done it, because Las Noches is still there.

1. I can know what an amount of explosive is capable of without having to demonstrate it. If it's a rule, there's got to be some basis for it.

2. This Las Noches is there. There was at least one other Las Noches before the one we see Aizen use. Not saying that that's evidence that they had a Gran Rey Cero go off and destroy an older building. Just the mere fact that a Las Noches is standing doesn't preclude a former Las Noches being destroyed. One Las Noches was already destroyed to make room for the new one already. Again though, you don't need to destroy a thing to know how destructive something is.

3. We see Ulquiorra release and destroy a good portion of Las Noches. If Rule 2 is true, then why would Rule 1 not be?

Hell, the implication by that very statement is that none of them have ever fired a Gran Ray Cero before since each of the Arrancar is like a few weeks old (in their current form) and never leave Las Noches, as far as we can tell, until they're introduced into the series. How can you be an "expert" of a power you only have a vague and ENTIRELY THEORETICAL grasp on the capabilities of?

Grimmjow fires off a Gran Rey Cero before the rule is invoked. He's defeated before that rule is invoked even. You're also have no idea how much information on how well they know the power. Unlike an actual in character statement about a power you're just making things up as hypothetical situations at this point to try and counter in universe statements.

But all of that is moot anyway. Grimmjow is 6, not 4 or above. He is exponentially weaker than the Arrancar above him (or so we're told).

But he can still preform Gran Rey Cero. It's not "Be 4 or above and". It's two separate rules. So it doesn't matter what his rank is.

Rynjin

2020-11-26, 01:48 AM

How so? If a Gran Rey Cero can obliterate a palace as large as Las Noches I think that's in order of magnitude more than any Rasengen we've seen in Naruto. The claim that Rasengan destroys things on a molecular level is false. All I need to do is demonstrate Grimmjow has powers equal to the Rasengan which he does.

Yes, the molecular level thing is false. That does not mean the "blow up Las Noches" thing is true.

1. I can know what an amount of explosive is capable of without having to demonstrate it. If it's a rule, there's got to be some basis for it.

2. This Las Noches is there. There was at least one other Las Noches before the one we see Aizen use. Not saying that that's evidence that they had a Gran Rey Cero go off and destroy an older building. Just the mere fact that a Las Noches is standing doesn't preclude a former Las Noches being destroyed. One Las Noches was already destroyed to make room for the new one already. Again though, you don't need to destroy a thing to know how destructive something is.

3. We see Ulquiorra release and destroy a good portion of Las Noches. If Rule 2 is true, then why would Rule 1 not be?

1.) You can suspect, but typically not prove without testing. And we have no idea what the "scientific method" for Bleach's spirit energy would be. Because we know absolutely nothing about how the power system works.

3.) Ulqiorra blows up like...PART of a single tower. That is not a "significant portion of Las Noches".

Grimmjow fires off a Gran Rey Cero before the rule is invoked. He's defeated before that rule is invoked even. You're also have no idea how much information on how well they know the power. Unlike an actual in character statement about a power you're just making things up as hypothetical situations at this point to try and counter in universe statements.

But he can still preform Gran Rey Cero. It's not "Be 4 or above and". It's two separate rules. So it doesn't matter what his rank is.

I'm not making anything up. I'm pointing out that nothing in the character statements is borne out in the events we actually see play out. The fact that Grimmjow fires a Gran Ray and DOESN'T blow up Las Noches kind of disproves the idea that it's powerful enough to blow up the whole place, yes?

There is no objective value statement you can make about Bleach's power system, because literally all you have to go on is the statements of characters...which half the time are DIRECTLY CONTRADICTED BY WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS.

Razade

2020-11-26, 02:00 AM

Yes, the molecular level thing is false. That does not mean the "blow up Las Noches" thing is true.

Doesn't mean it isn't either, and we have at least one character and an entire organization who has a rule about it.

1.) You can suspect, but typically not prove without testing. And we have no idea what the "scientific method" for Bleach's spirit energy would be. Because we know absolutely nothing about how the power system works.

3.) Ulqiorra blows up like...PART of a single tower. That is not a "significant portion of Las Noches".

1. I'm honestly not interested in bringing in the scientific method to Bleach or Naruto. Their universes work way different than ours we have no baseline. When a character says something, unless it's demonstrated to be false

2. It's way more than that before Ichigo gets going.

I'm not making anything up. I'm pointing out that nothing in the character statements is borne out in the events we actually see play out. The fact that Grimmjow fires a Gran Ray and DOESN'T blow up Las Noches kind of disproves the idea that it's powerful enough to blow up the whole place, yes?

He doesn't fire it in Las Noches. So no it doesn't disprove the idea that it could destroy Las Noches. You are, however, making something up when you opine that they don't know the extent of a power because they may have never even used it before. That's pure conjecture.

Ichigo's Gren Rey Cero is strong enough to damage YWCH though. That's after all his power ups, but still. We're told it's the stongest cero, that it isn't even allowed to be used under the dome of Las Noches because of how powerful it is. It's strong enough to damage Deepa even if it isn't enough to destroy all of Las Noches as it's claimed because what we do see of the Gran Rey Cero and almost every other Cero for that matter does more damage than a Rasengan. It certianly does more damage to things than the Rasengen that takes out Deepa.

There is no objective value statement you can make about Bleach's power system, because literally all you have to go on is the statements of characters...which half the time are DIRECTLY CONTRADICTED BY WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS.

There's no objective value statement you can make on anything in Naruto either. There's no quantification of powers. There's no explanation on power exchanges or anything like that. Welcome to the wide world of Shonen where the points aren't real and nothing matters. The Ten Tails is strong enough to destroy the world? Except at its strongest it can't even destroy a continent. Kaguya is the strongest being except suddenly there's a ton more just like her and they're all way stronger than she is. The list goes on and on. Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, DBZ, they're all awful for consistent power levels because plot is more important.

Forum Explorer

2020-11-26, 02:13 AM

There's no objective value statement you can make on anything in Naruto either. There's no quantification of powers. There's no explanation on power exchanges or anything like that. Welcome to the wide world of Shonen where the points aren't real and nothing matters. The Ten Tails is strong enough to destroy the world? Except at its strongest it can't even destroy a continent. Kaguya is the strongest being except suddenly there's a ton more just like her and they're all way stronger than she is. The list goes on and on. Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, DBZ, they're all awful for consistent power levels because plot is more important.

There is objective statements we can make in Naruto. We see the Rasengan hit stuff, and we see Tailed Beast Bombs fired as well. From what I can tell, most abilities are actually used and we can actually see their effects. Not all, you've pointed out a few good examples, but most.

But I'm with Rynjin on this, words aren't enough to make a claim. Like Cell destroying a solar system. He never actually comes anywhere close to doing so, so I don't believe he can. Also it's a really dumb claim to make.

The fact that Shonen is really bad at being consistent with power levels doesn't mean we just take their word at it. It means we have to do all the work ourselves and judge from what we actually see, not from what the characters say.

Rynjin

2020-11-26, 02:15 AM

The main difference is, there are at least some feats we have to go by. We know that the Ten Tails can nuke cities from miles away, as an example. That is a capability it has that is displayed on screen.

Instead what we have from Bleach is exactly the kind of stuff you said. Oh, wow, Ichigo's strongest attack
is enough to damage Ywach...who gives a ****? That doesn't tell me how strong it is. It doesn't tell me ANYTHING about the attack except that one guy stronger than other guy.

Even DBZ isn't that bad about it. Usually when a character says something, it's backed up somehow. Even though we have no objective proof that Beerus and Goku clashing can destroy the universe (as an example) we DO at least know that the clash creates shockwaves that can be felt and do damage many, many lightyears away...that is some kind of quantifiable, tangible SOMETHING besides "one guy stronger than other guy". We aren't completely and utterly reliant on character statements to understand capabilities.

Like I said in my first reply, the biggest thing we see a Bleach character do is blow up something roughly skyscraper sized; that's the Ichigo vs Ulquiorra fight...and also Ichigo vs Kenpachi, from way earlier in the series. Based just on what's OBSERVABLE nobody even grows any stronger after that point early on, because Kubo is a lazy writer.

HandofShadows

2020-11-26, 03:22 AM

3.) Ulqiorra blows up like...PART of a single tower. That is not a "significant portion of Las Noches".

If the Lanza del Relámpago had hit Las Noches rather than falling some distance away a significant portion of it would have been destroyed. That thing was like a nuke going off. As for Superman vs a Hollow, Superman should win every time. Hollows just are to weak to be a threat to him. When you get into the Arrancar though, that is when Sups get into trouble. Some of the upper level ones would be a major threat and Baraggan Louisenbairn would be near unstoppable.

Forum Explorer

2020-11-26, 04:17 AM

If the Lanza del Relámpago had hit Las Noches rather than falling some distance away a significant portion of it would have been destroyed. That thing was like a nuke going off. As for Superman vs a Hollow, Superman should win every time. Hollows just are to weak to be a threat to him. When you get into the Arrancar though, that is when Sups get into trouble. Some of the upper level ones would be a major threat and Baraggan Louisenbairn would be near unstoppable.

Superman could clap his hands and have the shockwave destroy Baraggan. Moving at lightspeed means that basically whenever he wants, Superman can cause a megaton sized explosion simply by moving. And he's strong enough to actually survive doing so, so it's actually a valid attack.

HandofShadows

2020-11-26, 09:25 AM

Superman could clap his hands and have the shockwave destroy Baraggan. Moving at lightspeed means that basically whenever he wants, Superman can cause a megaton sized explosion simply by moving. And he's strong enough to actually survive doing so, so it's actually a valid attack.

All of which means nothing to someone that manipulates time. And I don't think the this thread was talking about the stupid and impossibly overpowered Silver Age version of Superman. Not to forget that Superman actually moving at lightspeed would wreck a portion of the planet which rather defeats the purpose.

Anteros

2020-11-26, 09:49 AM

The issue with any vs battle involving Bleach is that Bleach has one of the most poorly written power systems in any manga/anime. There is absolutely no power scaling measure you can find save that one person will be stated by another person to be stronger than another person.

Feats are few and far between since all the biggest "feats" involve hitting somebody really hard and people exclaiming that this is impressive because the other person's armor is way strong (we promise).

So going by the things shown on screen, pretty much the biggest feat of strength is that somebody cuts a skyscraper in half pretty early on (Ichigo vs Kenpachi). We NEVER really see anything bigger than that.

So you tell me: can someone from a series with skyscraper cutting as its biggest feat really compete with the guy who can tow solar systems like some strongmen do with 18 wheelers?

Doesn't Ichigo destroy a mountain basically on accident with a flick of his wrist?

And yes, you generally have to believe whatever a series tells you is going on. You don't get to just arbitrarily ignore things the characters and setting state they are capable of. At least not if you want anyone to take you seriously.

Forum Explorer

2020-11-26, 09:57 AM

All of which means nothing to someone that manipulates time. And I don't think the this thread was talking about the stupid and impossibly overpowered Silver Age version of Superman. Not to forget that Superman actually moving at lightspeed would wreck a portion of the planet which rather defeats the purpose.

Baraggan's power is a lot more limited than manipulating time, as strictly accurate as that is. All things that touch his mist age/decay. But a powerful enough ranged attack can get through. After all, what killed him was basically a giant missile.

But most versions of Superman can go at lightspeed, it's a common feat for him. So is doing stuff like lifting the planet, or surviving massive explosions. It's certainly not silver age silliness, it's standard Superman silliness :smalltongue:

Honestly, it doesn't even destroy that much of the planet. Most of a city, basically. But he likely doesn't even need to do that. His laser vision would suffice which has similarly silly feats from silver age to the modern one.

HandofShadows

2020-11-26, 10:12 AM

Baraggan's power is a lot more limited than manipulating time, as strictly accurate as that is. All things that touch his mist age/decay. But a powerful enough ranged attack can get through. After all, what killed him was basically a giant missile.

If you don't know what killed Barragan, then you shouldn't talk about him or how his powers work because you don't know. Baraggan was killed by his own power.

Razade

2020-11-26, 11:59 AM

Baraggan's power is a lot more limited than manipulating time, as strictly accurate as that is. All things that touch his mist age/decay. But a powerful enough ranged attack can get through. After all, what killed him was basically a giant missile.

Barragan survives Soi Fon's Bankai. Even after he's trapped in the Four Beast's Bakudo. Barragan dies because Hachi's hand gets touched by Barragan's power and he teleports it inside himself. Which ages him and he disintegrates.

gooddragon1

2020-11-26, 01:10 PM

If you say "here's a theoretical Arrancar as strong as Superman"...sure?

But none of them are shown as being anywhere near that level. It's like saying "could a Smurf as theoretically strong as Superman contend with Superman"; a meaningless metric because the question answers itself.

Well in particular, would the Arrancar need some special ability to deal with Superman or is just strength, hierro, sonido, etc. of sufficient potency enough?

If it's easier, imagine a given Arrancar X, where X has:

Bala: Produces an infinite amount of energy, is actually hitscan (not speed of light/infinitely fast, immediately hits (maybe redundant))
Cero: Produces an infinite amount of energy, is actually hitscan (not speed of light/infinitely fast, immediately hits)
Enhanced Strength: Can exert an infinite amount of strength with exact control
Flight: Can walk on reishi... not much more to do here.
High Speed Regeneration: Immediate recovery from any physical damage (immediate meaning something similar to t=0 in terms of physics, it would appear as though damage hadn't occurred)
Hierro: Can withstand an infinite amount of damage in whatever means hierro can prevent.
Pesquisa: Can immediately detect and evaluate precisely reiatsu at any distance
Sonido: Infinite speed

Would superman from new 52 (whichever point is easiest to gauge or whatever point you want to use, whatever is most convenient) be able to beat X, where X is equal to the aforementioned Arrancar and the circumstances, Y, are equal to only the abilities that superman from new 52 would have in a no-prep situation?

Other Note 1: It might be necessary to find a reasonably serious version of superman that is about on par with an Arrancar for the other part of the fight in the superman scenario.

Other Note 2: Personally, I'm not sure at this point whether Deepa's attacks could get through Grimmjow's hierro. And, given how strong carbon bonds can get, I wonder about the other direction?

Example of what I mean for Grimmjow's hierro (Bleach Ichigo vs Grimmjow First Battle HD): https://youtu.be/yQFysktfwo8?t=53

Razade

2020-11-26, 01:15 PM

Other Note 2: Personally, I'm not sure at this point whether Deepa's attacks could get through Grimmjow's hierro. And, given how strong carbon bonds can get, I wonder about the other direction?

The former has been my contention from the start. Along with how much faster Grimmjow is than Deepa and that's just before he releases. He has a whole slew of new attacks when he unleashes Pantera. One attack that's strong enough to almost break Ichigo's zanpakuto. A Rasengan breaks through Deepa's armor which is said to be as hard as diamond. There's no reason a cero, a Gran Rey or Oscuras...both of which Grimmjow is capable of...couldn't duplicate that. Both are far larger in area than the Rasengan as well. Deepa is not a good match up to the Espada honestly. Maybe the 10th Espada but the others all have powers that would make Deepa's life harder.

gooddragon1

2020-11-26, 01:23 PM

The former has been my contention from the start. Along with how much faster Grimmjow is than Deepa and that's just before he releases. He has a whole slew of new attacks when he unleashes Pantera. One attack that's strong enough to almost break Ichigo's zanpakuto. A Rasengan breaks through Deepa's armor which is said to be as hard as diamond. There's no reason a cero, a Gran Rey or Oscuras...both of which Grimmjow is capable of...couldn't duplicate that. Both are far larger in area than the Rasengan as well. Deepa is not a good match up to the Espada honestly. Maybe the 10th Espada but the others all have powers that would make Deepa's life harder.

It was sort of a thematic decision, team 7 lost to Deepa because they couldn't get through his defenses and got stronger to fight him later on. Ichigo lost to Grimmjow because he couldn't get through his defenses and got stronger to fight him later on.

I'm not so good with the power scaling so I wouldn't really know what would be an even fight with Deepa. I'm a little biased toward Bleach at the moment, so that's why I'm not really contesting too much.

Vahnavoi

2020-11-26, 04:13 PM

I only follow Boruto as a manga so I've never heard of this Deepa guy.

I can, however, comment on Bleach and Naruto franchises in general.

In general, high end Bleach characters and high end Naruto characters are equally BS. There are even apples-to-apples comparisons you can make between powersets in the franchises. For example, both series have attack explicitly equivalent to real thunderbolts, and characters capable of shrugging off such attacks.

Grimmjow, roughly, displays a skillset comparable to Rock Lee and Might Guy. He is primarily a physical combatant, with some projectile attacks. However, he is also a dimension-travelling ghost. Yeah, you shouldn't forget about that. He has dimensional travel capability somewhat similar to space-time-ninjutsu seen in recent chapters of Boruto, though he has to travel through an intervening dimension to get from A to B.

There are ways to see ghosts & crap in Naruto, and there are techniques explicitly dealing with souls, but if Deepa guy doesn't have those, his molecular attacks aren't going to be particularly impressive. Grimmjow's Gran Rey Cero warps space-time. :smalltongue:

Razade

2020-11-26, 05:05 PM

Cero of any sort aren't shown warping space time. They're just condescend spirit energy. Grimmjow also can't use Garganta on the same plane as far as we know. Only traveling between Hueco Mundo and the mortal realm and Soul Society.

Lord Raziere

2020-11-26, 05:10 PM

Would superman from new 52 (whichever point is easiest to gauge or whatever point you want to use, whatever is most convenient) be able to beat X, where X is equal to the aforementioned Arrancar and the circumstances, Y, are equal to only the abilities that superman from new 52 would have in a no-prep situation?

Other Note 1: It might be necessary to find a reasonably serious version of superman that is about on par with an Arrancar for the other part of the fight in the superman scenario.

Well here is a Quora list of feats with pictures that New 52 Superman has done (https://www.quora.com/How-powerful-is-the-New-52-Superman)

and this is list from 2018, so, potentially two years out of date, but I don't think any Hollow has done anything to match or come closer to such feats.

Vahnavoi

2020-11-26, 05:36 PM

Cero of any sort aren't shown warping space time. They're just condescend spirit energy.

You are correct we never see it do anything particularly interesting, but on-lookers specifically state it warps space (https://bleach.fandom.com/wiki/Gran_Rey_Cero). How they made that determination is anyone's guess.

"Just condensed spirit energy" means nothing. It's like saying a Naruto attack is "just condensed chakra". Or that Might Guy's attacks are "just raw physical force" - a particularly apt comparison because Might Guy does bend space, according to Madara, when he opens the 8th Gate.

Grimmjow also can't use Garganta on the same plane as far as we know. Only traveling between Hueco Mundo and the mortal realm and Soul Society.

The actual process goes Earth <---> Void <---> Hueco Mundo, with Void <---> Dangai and Void <---> Soul Society also shown. Furthermore, Hollows aren't limited to single location at any end. We've seen Grimmjow leave and arrive at multiple places. So even if he has to take a detour through Hueco Mundo to get to a different place on Earth, the ultimate effect is similar to space-time-ninjutsu.

Forum Explorer

2020-11-26, 05:50 PM

If you don't know what killed Barragan, then you shouldn't talk about him or how his powers work because you don't know. Baraggan was killed by his own power.

Barragan survives Soi Fon's Bankai. Even after he's trapped in the Four Beast's Bakudo. Barragan dies because Hachi's hand gets touched by Barragan's power and he teleports it inside himself. Which ages him and he disintegrates.

Ah, fair enough. I had forgotten that part. So since my memory has failed me once let me ask; did Barragan ever claim or prove an immunity to physical attacks? Because even if he survived Soi Fon's Bankai, Superman's laser vision is on a whole other level.

Razade

2020-11-26, 05:54 PM

You are correct we never see it do anything particularly interesting, but on-lookers specifically state it warps space (https://bleach.fandom.com/wiki/Gran_Rey_Cero). How they made that determination is anyone's guess.

I think that's a misunderstanding on what caused the distortion honestly. They're discussing him being in his released stated in relation to that and only comment on the destruction caused by the cero itself. It's his Ressurection that causes the distortion. You see it with other Espada transform as well.

"Just condensed spirit energy" means nothing. It's like saying a Naruto attack is "just condensed chakra". Or that Might Guy's attacks are "just raw physical force" - a particularly apt comparison because Might Guy does bend space, according to Madara, when he opens the 8th Gate.

That's what it is though. And, until you can show in manga where it says the Gran Rey Cero warps space, that's just something you and the wiki are claiming. Wikis are good resources but they're not perfect.

The actual process goes Earth <---> Void <---> Hueco Mundo, with Void <---> Dangai and Void <---> Soul Society also shown. Furthermore, Hollows aren't limited to single location at any end. We've seen Grimmjow leave and arrive at multiple places. So even if he has to take a detour through Hueco Mundo to get to a different place on Earth, the ultimate effect is similar to space-time-ninjutsu.

You can claim it all you want, sure.

Ah, fair enough. I had forgotten that part. So since my memory has failed me once let me ask; did Barragan ever claim or prove an immunity to physical attacks? Because even if he survived Soi Fon's Bankai, Superman's laser vision is on a whole other level.

He claimed that Kido aged and that's why it couldn't contain him. If he can age big light walls I don't see why his power wouldn't effect laser beams either honestly. He aged Soi Fon's Bankai to explode prematurely as well so he's got quite the control over it.

gooddragon1

2020-11-26, 06:29 PM

Well here is a Quora list of feats with pictures that New 52 Superman has done (https://www.quora.com/How-powerful-is-the-New-52-Superman)

and this is list from 2018, so, potentially two years out of date, but I don't think any Hollow has done anything to match or come closer to such feats.

I don't doubt that. I don't think we've ever seen a hollow or Arrancar with infinite power or even close to what the scans on that site, but I'm just wondering if a theoretically infinitely strong Arrancar (infinite strength cero, infinitely fast sonido, etc.) as previously mentioned could beat new 52 superman without using their resurrecion ability? Because that's usually a specialized ability for them, whereas cero and sonido are commonly available to Arrancar. For example, could new 52 superman stop time or become completely intangible? Because then the theoretical Arrancar might need some other resources (specifically a resurrecion ability that could handle those defenses or attacks, all the way up to reality warping potentially depending on what new 52 superman could do).

Lord Raziere

2020-11-26, 06:37 PM

I don't doubt that. I don't think we've ever seen a hollow or Arrancar with infinite power or even close to what the scans on that site, but I'm just wondering if a theoretically infinitely strong Arrancar (infinite strength cero, infinitely fast sonido, etc.) as previously mentioned could beat new 52 superman without using their resurrecion ability? Because that's usually a specialized ability for them, whereas cero and sonido are commonly available to Arrancar. For example, could new 52 superman stop time or become completely intangible? Because then the theoretical Arrancar might need some other resources (specifically a resurrecion ability that could handle those defenses or attacks, all the way up to reality warping potentially depending on what new 52 superman could do).

This seems like a very weird, specific question but okay. I checked the Vs Battles evaluation of New 52 Superman, There is apparently an ability of his to manipulate his atoms to phase through attacks among his many abilities (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Superman_(Post-Flashpoint)#New_52)

So yes, he can become intangible, I didn't think it was possible for him to do that, but apparently yes he can.

gooddragon1

2020-11-26, 06:42 PM

This seems like a very weird, specific question but okay. I checked the Vs Battles evaluation of New 52 Superman, There is apparently an ability of his to manipulate his atoms to phase through attacks among his many abilities (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Superman_(Post-Flashpoint)#New_52)

So yes, he can become intangible, I didn't think it was possible for him to do that, but apparently yes he can.

If cero or the other abilities couldn't handle that, then I think that answers the question. Though that might be more of a physics thing.

Rynjin

2020-11-26, 07:10 PM

Doesn't Ichigo destroy a mountain basically on accident with a flick of his wrist?

That was, if it's the scene I think you're referring to, a specific one-time only powerup that Ichigo was never able to achieve again.

And yes, you generally have to believe whatever a series tells you is going on. You don't get to just arbitrarily ignore things the characters and setting state they are capable of. At least not if you want anyone to take you seriously.

It's not arbitrary...it's specifically contradicted by what's shown. One character says a Gran Ray Cero can destroy las Noches.

Another fires a Gran Ray Cero, and does not destroy Las Noches.

Unless you want to claim Grimmjow was somehow HOLDING BACK against Ichigo...the statements and in-series reality contradict each other. Every Gran Ray Cero fired inflicts fairly minimal destruction.

Ah, fair enough. I had forgotten that part. So since my memory has failed me once let me ask; did Barragan ever claim or prove an immunity to physical attacks? Because even if he survived Soi Fon's Bankai, Superman's laser vision is on a whole other level.

He's highly resistant, but certainly not immune. He took some superficial damage from both of Soi Fon's bankai attacks.

This implies that a large enough immediate burst of damage, or enough successive bursts of a lower level of damage would be enough to put him down.

I don't think Supes would need any special tricks against Barragan either. Isn't he immune to aging? There's a version of Superman that's like a billion years old or some ****.

gooddragon1

2020-11-26, 07:34 PM

That was, if it's the scene I think you're referring to, a specific one-time only powerup that Ichigo was never able to achieve again.

I'd say he got stronger later on during the Wandenreich invasion. Considering that Aizen didn't get weaker and characters like Kenpachi didn't either. As well as Ichigo fighting decently enough during that arc.

It's not arbitrary...it's specifically contradicted by what's shown. One character says a Gran Ray Cero can destroy las Noches.

Another fires a Gran Ray Cero, and does not destroy Las Noches.

Unless you want to claim Grimmjow was somehow HOLDING BACK against Ichigo...the statements and in-series reality contradict each other. Every Gran Ray Cero fired inflicts fairly minimal destruction.

That attack hit Ichigo, I don't know if that means he nullified it, but I'd question what would happen if the attack missed and hit Las Noches instead.

He's highly resistant, but certainly not immune. He took some superficial damage from both of Soi Fon's bankai attacks.

This implies that a large enough immediate burst of damage, or enough successive bursts of a lower level of damage would be enough to put him down.

I don't think Supes would need any special tricks against Barragan either. Isn't he immune to aging? There's a version of Superman that's like a billion years old or some ****.

He did take damage from the attack and he might well have taken more if he hadn't used aging on it to detonate it prematurely instead of directly being struck by it.

I'm not an expert in the series, but this is what I remember from the scenes and the wiki.