Rune knight discussion

[intregus]

So I love and hate the rune knight in Tashas.

What I love...
All of the rune stuff

What I hate....
All of the giant stuff that has nothing to do with the rune stuff.

Does anyone else feel like this subclass does 2 totally different things? Wouldn't the subclass be better if you got rid of all the giant stuff for more rune stuff and then use all that giant stuff as part of a different subclass?

I'm thinking of homebrewimg these into 2 different subclasses, one giant themed one that a leans more into the runes.

Does anyone have any initial thoughts on how to do this or what to implement for each subclass?

[ZRN]

I'm 100% with you. The idea of a fighter who specializes in runic magic is very cool, but the connection to giants seems tenuous, and why would giants need magic to make themselves bigger anyway?

If you wanted to separate the cool rune stuff from the giant stuff, there's three abilities you'd need to change: Giant Might (lvl 3), Great Stature (lvl 10), and Runic Juggernaut (lvl 18). Now, you could just rename Giant Might to something like Runic Might and keep the damage bonus and advantage on Strength stuff - that all works fine. Great Stature is just for fun, so put in whatever there - maybe like Expertise with smithing tools?

The mainthing that's left is the ability to change your size Being large isn't a wonderful benefit in itself - nice for grappling, but I don't know what else. You could probably slot in any number of minor benefits here. Maybe +5ft movement speed? Advantage on opportunity attacks for a round after you hit someone with your extra damage?

The level 18 benefit is more substantial, but nothing's balanced at that level honestly. Free Polymorph Self 6/day, why not.

[Unoriginal]

Giants using runes in the D&D setting is part of the lore. I can get not liking it but the connection isn't tenuous.

[Willie the Duck]

Initial thought: well, the culture that included runes also gave us a bunch of myths that included giants, so I can understand from whence the connection came. Previous versions of the game tied runes to dwarves, but making this subclass specifically dwarven-themed in a book that de-coupled bladesinger from elves would be a strange decision. That said, if you don't like it, you don't like it. There isn't a lot of re-fluffing that would be required to make the class very un-giantlike. It's right up there with cavaliers and their relationship to cavalry or the exactly how how easy it is to decouple the samurai class from a specific IRL culture.

[Amdy_vill]

5e and all of dnd have a problem with connecting class options into lore which was ok back when dnd was a more lore-heavy game but now just causes problems like this. the worse part is the opposite of this problem when a great lore idea is imposable because of the rules. cough cough there should be a bladesinger cleric option because of lore. cough cough.

[Rfkannen]

I TOTTALY AGREE

I love both halfs of the characters.

I love the idea of playing a super skillful and crafty fighter with connections to ancient martial magics that aren't spells. I'd probably play an elf, carefully enchanting my gear, perfecting my runes. A switch hitter, dex based, using both bow and rapier.

On the other hand, I love the idea of playing a unarmed weapon fighting style wrestler who can grapple gods at higher levels. Going goliath and playing them like a over the top braggart and showboater.


However I have a lot of trouble coming up with a character that fits BOTH of those skillsets and archetypes. Like I seriously want to, the runeknight looks like a ton of fun to play, but I feel like any rune knight I made would bassically ignore half of its abilities in rp. I just can't figure it out!

[Unoriginal]

I TOTTALY AGREE

I love both halfs of the characters.

I love the idea of playing a super skillful and crafty fighter with connections to ancient martial magics that aren't spells.

[...]

On the other hand, I love the idea of playing a unarmed weapon fighting style wrestler who can grapple gods at higher levels. Going goliath and playing them like a over the top braggart and showboater.


However I have a lot of trouble coming up with a character that fits BOTH of those skillsets and archetypes

You're kinda describing D&D Giants.

[intregus]

First off I'm glad I'm not alone!

Second what I mean by my problem with the giant stuff isn't the fluff side of things, that can be refluffed/ignored but the actual mechanics just seem like they are both going down seperate paths, one focused on runes and one focused on being bigger.

You can literally remove all the size changing features and the rune magic is untouched(and vice versa)

So what I'm looking to do is fill,out 2 subclasses that each lean into those mechanics.

For a basic premise I'm thinking,these would be my chassis


Rune knight
Replace the following features:
Giant Might (lvl 3)
Great Stature (lvl 10)
Runic Juggernaut (lvl 18)

But what should I replace those with?

Giant fighter
Replace the following features:
Bonus Proficiences (lvl 3)
Rune Carver (lvl 3)
Runic Shield (lvl 7)
Master of Runes (lvl 15)

So a little more work is needed on this one.

Anyone have any thoughts on new features? I wont be able to really think about these until I get off work.

[Waazraath]

I get the point, but on the other hand: there needs to be some fluff that seperates 'rune magic' from normal magic with spells and all that. If it's just 'normal magic but different' it begs the question 'where does it come from and why is nobody else using it'? By tying it to an old culture outside humanoids, they did a decent attempt justyfying its existence. Of course, it could have been dragons, or creator races as well, but since they chose giants the whole size increments makes it a logical package.

[MrStabby]

I kind of agree.


I could see the rune knight being it's own class all in all. There is a lot of culture that can ascribe magic to writing. Heiroglyphic curses, Magic Runes, Prayers in ancient script. I think there is enough scope in the concept accross a lot of different cultures to flesh out something more. Add on to that the space for abilities you could get with stripping the giant stuff out (and even toning down the fighter stuff if it was a seperate class) and I thnk there could be something really really fun there as a scholar of ancient magic script.

[ZRN]

since they chose giants the whole size increments makes it a logical package.

...no it doesn’t! The one species that definitively does NOT need to develop custom magic to temporarily make themselves bigger is giants! Why would that be the focus of their runic magic?

[CMCC]

...no it doesn’t! The one species that definitively does NOT need to develop custom magic to temporarily make themselves bigger is giants! Why would that be the focus of their runic magic?

My understanding is that the CONNECTION to the giants makes you grow. Not the runes developed by giants for themselves. The specific ruins don’t make you grow - so that seems to support the idea.

Or you could just play it that the giants developed this stuff to give to other non-giant allies.

SIDE NOTE:
can anyone explain to me why people are so hyped about this class and ranking it alongside echo Knight as the best subclass for fighter . I feel like I’m missing something here.

[CheddarChampion]

SIDE NOTE:
can anyone explain to me why people are so hyped about this class and ranking it alongside echo Knight as the best subclass for fighter . I feel like I’m missing something here.

I think people are hyped because it has a good mix of active and passive abilities, the abilities are potent, you just need CON for save DCs (as opposed to a mental stat), and it can act as a straightforward way to boost dpr (as in you take the same course of action but you do it better), and because runes and/or giant stuff is cool/flavorful.

[intregus]

I get the point, but on the other hand: there needs to be some fluff that seperates 'rune magic' from normal magic with spells and all that. If it's just 'normal magic but different' it begs the question 'where does it come from and why is nobody else using it'? By tying it to an old culture outside humanoids, they did a decent attempt justyfying its existence. Of course, it could have been dragons, or creator races as well, but since they chose giants the whole size increments makes it a logical package.

I get what you're saying but I don't think I made my point clear so here it goes. You could keep the fluff that giants invented rune magic and not make mechanics that change your size.

I get why the subclass gets size changing mechanics, since they tied rune magic to giants, but that's not my issue.

If the fluff would have been dragons and 1/2 the subclass was making you be more like a dragon I'd still have the same problem with the subclass. Which is, it's doing 2 different things, it feels like they took 2 ideas with different mechanics that have nothing to do with each other and mashed them into one subclass. The subclass feels like its doing two different things and when you look at the features as I have them broken out above you'll see that.

I think you are absolutely correct that rune magic should feel different and I think they did a good job of it. I just want MORE rune magic instead of half a subclass of it. Keep its origin or fluff with giants or not, that part isn't the issue.

I'm thinking that the rune knight fighter will be to the artifice what the EK fighter is to the wizard. Instead of all the giant mechanics what about the ability to "enchant" items by inscribing runes onto them and granting magic properties?

[Chaosmancer]

...no it doesn’t! The one species that definitively does NOT need to develop custom magic to temporarily make themselves bigger is giants! Why would that be the focus of their runic magic?

Well, it isn't the focus, the focus is on all the other effects. But, actually, if you really want to consider it... Yeah giants getting bigger does make some degree of sense.

Giants have this thing about being the bigger giant meaning you are more powerful and important. So if a giant was to develop a spell to make themselves more powerful the first thing they would do is develop something to make them bigger, because that is how you get more powerful and important.

This also leads to something truly terrifying.

A medium person goes to Large, then Huge, and the magic tries to be very specific, but what if we broke that limit when Giant's used their own magic?

Now a Giant can go from Huge to Gargantuan to ????? and suddenly they can treat other giants like giants treat other races. A giant would find this terrifying in the extreme, because suddenly they are small.

I think it makes a ton of thematic sense.

[Unoriginal]

SIDE NOTE:
can anyone explain to me why people are so hyped about this class and ranking it alongside echo Knight as the best subclass for fighter . I feel like I’m missing something here.

I'm more curious about why people are so hyped about the Echo Knight and are ranking it among the best subclasses for Fighter, personally.

[Dork_Forge]

I'm more curious about why people are so hyped about the Echo Knight and are ranking it among the best subclasses for Fighter, personally.

At will teleportation, melee attack benefits without necessarily having the risk at being in melee, the nicety of being a magicish fighter without necessitating spells.

It's certainly a strong subclass, I don't think I'd rank it number one, but top 3 maybe, sure.

[MrStabby]

SIDE NOTE:
can anyone explain to me why people are so hyped about this class and ranking it alongside echo Knight as the best subclass for fighter . I feel like I’m missing something here.

So there are a few things.

So firstly there is diversity of abilities. With a broad spectrum of things you can do you are likely to have something awesome to do, and something the basic fighter doesnt get. When you need more than just a bit of extra damage in combat you are more likely to have a useful tool than say the champion or the samurai or to be honest even the eldritch knight.

Then there are all the passive abilities, great boosts for a class that is otherwise weak outside of combat.

The rune abilities themselves are powerful. Damage resistance, giving advantage/disadvantage, great reactions on a class that generally diesnt have a better use for their reaction than an opportunity attack.

And with the other class abilities the rune knight has some pretty awesome damage as well.

And the level 7 protection ability... pure awesome.

I thing the subclass is great because it is so well rounded. The diversity of abilities to react to different circumstances means that you are more likely than any other fighter to have something great to pull out when things go south.

[ZRN]

My understanding is that the CONNECTION to the giants makes you grow. Not the runes developed by giants for themselves. The specific ruins don’t make you grow - so that seems to support the idea.

Or you could just play it that the giants developed this stuff to give to other non-giant allies.


Here’s why the connection feels tenuous to me: it depends on a very D&D specific connection (giants are best at runic magic) and doesn’t even make straightforward sense in that context. Almost every other subclass is pretty strictly setting-neutral. I can’t even point to a character in fiction (D&D novels, anime, whatever) that I would call a Rune Knight. Seems weird! Still a cool subclass and I’d play it, but an odd choice IMO.

[Houster]

So there are a few things.

So firstly there is diversity of abilities. With a broad spectrum of things you can do you are likely to have something awesome to do, and something the basic fighter doesnt get. When you need more than just a bit of extra damage in combat you are more likely to have a useful tool than say the champion or the samurai or to be honest even the eldritch knight.

Then there are all the passive abilities, great boosts for a class that is otherwise weak outside of combat.

The rune abilities themselves are powerful. Damage resistance, giving advantage/disadvantage, great reactions on a class that generally diesnt have a better use for their reaction than an opportunity attack.

And with the other class abilities the rune knight has some pretty awesome damage as well.

And the level 7 protection ability... pure awesome.

I thing the subclass is great because it is so well rounded. The diversity of abilities to react to different circumstances means that you are more likely than any other fighter to have something great to pull out when things go south.

I mean... I look at the rune knight and I think... I better off just go barb after 6 levels(or 5) of rune knight. The hill runeword is just once a short rest, and is a fraction of the rage ability, which gives extra damage and can be used more than once(and even more if you take more barb levels). Heck, the other bonus action go large and deal some extra damage works with rage.

I may be wrong of course, but tell me what you think.

[CMCC]

I'm more curious about why people are so hyped about the Echo Knight and are ranking it among the best subclasses for Fighter, personally.

Uhh have you read the level 3 abilities? Extra attacks. Free teleports. Battlefield control. Functionally free flight. Completely unbalanced.

And then the level 7 is even worse. 1000 foot teleports. For free. Oh and basically free scouting. Essentially 2 4th level spells for free.

Oh aaaaaand you’re a fighter.

[Unoriginal]

Uhh have you read the level 3 abilities? Extra attacks. Free teleports. Battlefield control. Functionally free flight. Completely unbalanced.

I've read the lvl 3 abilities, and those are not the lvl 3 abilities.

[stoutstien]

Uhh have you read the level 3 abilities? Extra attacks. Free teleports. Battlefield control. Functionally free flight. Completely unbalanced.

And then the level 7 is even worse. 1000 foot teleports. For free. Oh and basically free scouting. Essentially 2 4th level spells for free.

Oh aaaaaand you’re a fighter.

Echo is really good at what it does and but it doesn't really have much past that and the whole sort of kinda of official content of CR stuff is a big factor as well.

RK don't have one clear role as such. They have a bunch of mix n match tools to move about to fit a few different roles. As far as fighters go they are far apart as EK and samurai.

[MrStabby]

I mean... I look at the rune knight and I think... I better off just go barb after 6 levels(or 5) of rune knight. The hill runeword is just once a short rest, and is a fraction of the rage ability, which gives extra damage and can be used more than once(and even more if you take more barb levels). Heck, the other bonus action go large and deal some extra damage works with rage.

I may be wrong of course, but tell me what you think.

So for all the merits of any other class, I cant see why you would jump out of this after 6 levels. Level 7 of rune knight is awesome. Well, not as awesome as it was.in the UA but still pretty good. A third rune use, access to more powerful runes and a great support ability.

But to your point... yes, the hill rune is not as good as the barbarians rage ability. One of three runes you will have at that level, and the runes in turn are just part of the subclass, is not equal to the central mechanic of another class... thank goodness. And if all you want from a class is the ability to stand after taking a lot of damage then sure, barbarian is probably better. But, if you place any value on the extra feats, action surge, fighting style, heavy armour usage, second wind and so on then it looks pretty good on the fighter chassis as well. Even without the full benefits of rage it's great, not least because in some ways it's better (can cast spells, wont end early).

But sometimes you need a different tool in your toolbox. Barbarians get rage... and more rage. The Rune Knight by level 7 is looking at 3 different runes that can do very different things. Look at the shackles for example (I pick this as it is, to my mind a mid power rune - not one that needs a level restriction but not weak either). You can walk into a room, hit a wizard once and walk away leaving them to burn to death until they pass a strength saving throw. They cant hide. They cant counter it. They cant break concentration. They either pass a strength save or they burn. And each turn they are making concentration saves whilst you have run off and they are restrained and cant follow. Or everyone just beats them down with advantage. Sometimes an offensive tool like this is what you need. Sometimes you need to debuff, to protect, to control. You can shake it all up as you need.

And you get multiple of these runes (as in selected options, not multiple of the same) and they come back on a short rest. And giant might (which to my mind covers off the other half or rage quite nicely).

I think (almost) any of the rune abilities would be good by themselves, but the flexibility to pull out the one most suited to the specific circumstances is what makes this option so good in my oppinion.

[Dork_Forge]

I like that the runes provide an active and a passive benefit, but when I look at the rune list I can't help but be hit with a feeling of "I just want a rune that does more damage on a hit."

I get that giants and runes go together in D&D lore, but that is a flavour connection I didn't need or want to see mechanically reinforced.

Overall it's a pretty nice subclass, it provides a decent amount of customisation within itself and there's some real potential. It feels different enough from the other subclasses that it provides value.

[Unoriginal]

I like that the runes provide an active and a passive benefit, but when I look at the rune list I can't help but be hit with a feeling of "I just want a rune that does more damage on a hit."

Well, that's what Giant's Might does.

[Dork_Forge]

Well, that's what Giant's Might does.

And personally I neither want Giant's Might to be a thing, or for it to be a limited resource. Just let me throw a rune on a sword that does an extra 1d4 cold damage and grows in die size in later tiers. It just feels like they were trying to hard and they end up busy as a result, though that could be my personal bias. I see runes as more simple magic, the ones we get are basically spell level complexity a lot of the time.

[stoutstien]

And personally I neither want Giant's Might to be a thing, or for it to be a limited resource. Just let me throw a rune on a sword that does an extra 1d4 cold damage and grows in die size in later tiers. It just feels like they were trying to hard and they end up busy as a result, though that could be my personal bias. I see runes as more simple magic, the ones we get are basically spell level complexity a lot of the time.

I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I like that most of the runes are more than damage boosts. They are on some ways superior to spells but more limited in scope. Stone no longer breaks on damage and fire acts like a smite so you can't waste the initial damage.

[Rfkannen]

You're kinda describing D&D Giants.



Thats kind of my problem. Being huge and using using rune magic is a thing that is awesome for a giant to do! However it doesn't feel right for someone who is not a giant and just emulating them. I mean it makes logical sense, but I feel like the runes and the size are two different reasons someone would emulate giants. And I have trouble picturing a character that does both. What type of person would that be?

I REALLY want to play one at some point. But I don't really have any ideas that fit it yet.

[intregus]

And personally I neither want Giant's Might to be a thing, or for it to be a limited resource. Just let me throw a rune on a sword that does an extra 1d4 cold damage and grows in die size in later tiers. It just feels like they were trying to hard and they end up busy as a result, though that could be my personal bias. I see runes as more simple magic, the ones we get are basically spell level complexity a lot of the time.


I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I like that most of the runes are more than damage boosts. They are on some ways superior to spells but more limited in scope. Stone no longer breaks on damage and fire acts like a smite so you can't waste the initial damage.

I think you're both right and I'd we through out all the giant and size stuff to do both of these ideas it would be what I was hoping the rune knight to be.

[Waazraath]

I mean... I look at the rune knight and I think... I better off just go barb after 6 levels(or 5) of rune knight. The hill runeword is just once a short rest, and is a fraction of the rage ability, which gives extra damage and can be used more than once(and even more if you take more barb levels). Heck, the other bonus action go large and deal some extra damage works with rage.

I may be wrong of course, but tell me what you think.

I think it is great, and you're underselling it. Lets start with the barb. Yeah, rage does much more. I don't think it gets to be used more often though, at most points during a campaign. Recharge after a short rest is, in my experience but ymmv, at least 3 times per adventuring day (and I think 2 short rests is a fair assumption). When the Rune Knight gets the hill rune, it can use it as many times as the barbarian can rage. Only 2 levels later the single barb pulls ahead slightly, being able to use it 1 time/day more often, and at level 13 2 times/day. But at lvl 15, the rune knight can use the runes twice/short rest, catching up and taking over. At 17, they are equal once more, and at 20 barb gets unlimited rages.

BUT: this is comparing a single class bbn with rune knight fighther. If you do as you suggest, multiclassing bbn after 6 levels of rune knight, you're far behind in uses/day when comparing rage with hill rune. And much more important, as Mr. Stabby pointed out, Hill Rune is a relative minor subclass ability, while Rage is a bbn's bread and butter.

And lets dive in what we can do with the rune knight. Lets start with with the mentioned hill rune. What you can do with rk (and not with bbn) is combining your resistance with heavy armor mastery. This makes you very tanky in fights against opponents who do non-magical s/p/b damage. Add a source of temporary hp (racial, feats or by a party member) and you can be very, very tanky in several fights/day. Both proficiency with heavy armor (and the barb's ability to combine that with rage) and the extra feats the fighter chasis has are golden.

Another take: the Storm Rune. Grant advantage/disadvantage for an entire minute with a reaction... this is sick. A sorcerer pays 3 sorcery points (a long rest resource) to giva a creature disadvantage on a save against a spell, once. You can do this every turn. Assist your caster ally by giving enemies disadvantage against banishment, blindness, hold person/monster, or polymorph. Every. Turn. Use it 3 times in a day and you already used more virtual sorcerer points than the sorcerer has a the level you get it (lvl 7!). And if you don't have an ally around that casts spell, hell with it, just give yourself advantage on an attack, or an enemy disadvantage. And this is only 1 of the 3 runes you have!

Another take, the pretty obvious one: grapple king. Get advantage on str checks. Be a max str character. Give your enemies disadvantage if needed (storm rune). Grapple huge and guargantean creatures. Grab expertise if you want, with one of your fighter bonus feats. Single class this can be one of the best grapplers in the game.

And all of the stuff above doesn't even touches the other runes, the advantage you can get on skills for out of combat use, the extra damage, the Runic Shield feature.... all of this makes it a great subclass, that can be used for a great number of concepts I think.

[Houster]

Yeah you're right...
I think barb/rk is more fighty, and rune knight is more well rounded.
Actually it's a really fun build (barb/rk) cause you get to be a fighter barb plus all the rk early goodies. You can look at it as rounding the barb, which is normally just very very fighty.

[Dork_Forge]

I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I like that most of the runes are more than damage boosts. They are on some ways superior to spells but more limited in scope. Stone no longer breaks on damage and fire acts like a smite so you can't waste the initial damage.

To clarify, I don't want all or even most runes to be like, I just want a single simplified but reliable damage Rune. Fire is great but has the follow up riders and tbh 'fiery shackles' doesn't do it for me in the least.If they'd made a single Rune that just added like a d4 of damage, but did it all of the time (scaling die size later in the game) then that'd be perfect imo. A simple, rune enhanced weapon, with all of the other options for customisation and complexity.

This also fits with another part of my mental image for runes being passive/reliable in comparison to other magics, I know that there's a passive on each rune but still *shrug*

[stoutstien]

To clarify, I don't want all or even most runes to be like, I just want a single simplified but reliable damage Rune. Fire is great but has the follow up riders and tbh 'fiery shackles' doesn't do it for me in the least.If they'd made a single Rune that just added like a d4 of damage, but did it all of the time (scaling die size later in the game) then that'd be perfect imo. A simple, rune enhanced weapon, with all of the other options for customisation and complexity.

This also fits with another part of my mental image for runes being passive/reliable in comparison to other magics, I know that there's a passive on each rune but still *shrug*

I can see that. If I had to pick a rune to turn into a static damage booster it would be hill. I don't get the resistance connection.