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Clistenes
2020-11-23, 04:42 PM
I have read several threads that were of the sort "if you were to be transferred to X setting or world, starting as a level 1 character... what class and where in that planet would you pick...?"

But, what if you could choose the world or setting you would be born/reincarnated/transferred into, as an anonymous level 1 character (your pick of class and PC race)? What wold would you pick?

I think Nerath during the peak of the Nera Empire sounds nice, but if you couldn't pick a past time period, I think Thesalys in Greatspace doesn't sound bad for non-mages...

If you can pick a RPG other than D&D, Ryuutama would be very nice.

EDIT: Edited for the sake of clarity.

Tvtyrant
2020-11-23, 04:46 PM
Eberron or Dragonlance. The former has a high standard of living, the latter has a much lower occurrence of world ending events then the typical RPG.

The latter actually only has one in its entire period, usually it is just mundane armies walking back and forth with long peace periods between them and the occasional mountain thrown at a city.

Duff
2020-11-23, 05:03 PM
Not the Forgotten realms!

Maybe Mysteria(sp?) the BECMI world since AFAIK, it has no world ending threats or even major wars or really evil empires

Clistenes
2020-11-23, 05:12 PM
Eberron or Dragonlance. The former has a high standard of living, the latter has a much lower occurrence of world ending events then the typical RPG.

The latter actually only has one in its entire period, usually it is just mundane armies walking back and forth with long peace periods between them and the occasional mountain thrown at a city.

Eberron is nice, but I wouldn't want to go to Dolurrh after death...

About Dragonlance, Krynn seems to usually be locked in one of these three: 1.-World War; 2.-Tyrannical Theocracy or 3.-Very Low Magic Dark Age...

I guess the early Age of Might, before the Kingpriest of Istar went full crazy theocrat was a good time to live...


Not the Forgotten realms!

Maybe Mysteria(sp?) the BECMI world since AFAIK, it has no world ending threats or even major wars or really evil empires

You mean Mystara...?

Tvtyrant
2020-11-23, 05:24 PM
Eberron is nice, but I wouldn't want to go to Dolurrh after death...

About Dragonlance, Krynn seems to usually be locked in one of these three: 1.-World War; 2.-Tyrannical Theocracy or 3.-Very Low Magic Dark Age...

I guess the early Age of Might, before the Kingpriest of Istar went full crazy theocrat was a good time to live...



You mean Mystara...?

Most D&D settings are hell holes. Major conflict in Dragonlance is actually relatively rare, usually once every century or so and is otherwise usually medieval stasis. Most people actually die of real world causes like a petty conflict with neighbors or a disease. There is also very little in the way of demons, aliens, etc.

By comparison in Forgotten Realms you have a high chance of being invaded by killer sunflowers that got free from the prison they were held in by sentient shapechanger-oozes, or an Aboleth cult opening a hole to the Elemental PLane of Water to drown the planet, or magic breaks, etc. On any given day of the week. Greyhawk is a slightly better version of this.

Darksun is a post-apocalyptic wasteland.

Ravenloft is worse.

Eberron has a lot to offer, but there is still a good chance of interdimensional gribblies eating your mind. It is just very spaced out. It's the best option.

noob
2020-11-23, 06:27 PM
If you can pick a specific place it would be earth: there is a dnd setting that contains call of chtulu earth(I believe it is forgotten realms).
There is risks of end of the world but the odds of a cult summoning swarms of eldritch monstrosities and threatening the world are a lot lower than just the risks to die of disease or hunger from a famine or to just be mugged and stabbed to death in most dnd settings.
Also the risks of interactions with dnd mechanics are lowered massively since they did not say it had dnd physics.
As for the class if I have on on that planet anything that does not gets me targeted by otherworldly dangers and governments.(So probably a mundane class such as rogue or expert then I use the profession skill)

sktarq
2020-11-23, 06:33 PM
Well if I can pick my character class....

Oriental Adventures version of Rokugan...was a DnD product...but I'd pick Courtier class. Nicely in the noble class, low chance of being poked with steel bits, nicely away from the wall and all. do some calligraphy.

after that Eberron...pick one of the classes not in Sarlona...prolly something Arcane....I may end up in thrall to a lich-queen with my personal nature.

Mystara...could be fun....class? Elf...as race and class were not separated may as well be immortal and then "disappear" to "elven lands" when I'm about 1200 or so.

And then weirdly maybe Ravenloft. If you are NOT an adventurer much of can be kinda boring and chill...no major invasions, low level of basic raids and stuff. Good place to be a clockmaker or gunsmith. . . It is a lot more dread, creepy, and fear than the "how do people repopulate quickly enough" of Greyhawk or FR and horror needs contrast.

Saint-Just
2020-11-23, 06:36 PM
Answering this question requires either getting answers to a few dozen questions or making a few dozen assumptions for oneself. E.g. how much it is by-the-rules D&D (and what edition) and how much it is like reality. Rules which are outside of character (like appropriate challenge rating and wealth by level and experience rewards) make the biggest difference but even small details (e.g. whether a relatively small force can put out your eye without you being already halfway dead, and what kind of magic is necessary to heal it) can change expectations rapidly. Going close enough to real life (even allowing full effect of all class abilities as written) will probably turn away most people on this forum from a proper "adventuring" career.


Eberron is nice, but I wouldn't want to go to Dolurrh after death...


It seems that depending on your interpretation of post-mortem states they would be either significantly more important than anything you can achieve during the life (especially if you expect to end up on an Upper Plane, or maybe in Outlands) or significantly less important (if you don't consider petitioner who doesn't even remember the earthly life to be really "you"), you are unlikely to get "they are equally important with life". First case have some unfortunate implications (though if we're talking about loosely-defined imagined metaphysics and theology there is no "it cannot be this way"), second one shouldn't make Dolrurrh a dealbreaker.

For myself - would you consider choosing "Planecape" to be cheating?

Quertus
2020-11-23, 06:42 PM
Well, let me start by saying, in the homebrew Paradox (think Rifts, but good), my metagame knowledge let me be amazing playing as simply myself. So getting "starting character" power added to that, it would be difficult to imagine a much better choice.

When taking about appearing in non-D&D worlds, are we talking "starting character" or "1st level D&D character" power? Because that changes things for how attractive, say, Exalted, or most superhero settings might look.

For D&D worlds, getting to choose when and where, I'd take my homebrew world of Placia. I can count on Quertus to (pawn me off on someone to) keep me alive & train me up to epic.

If I don't get to choose the when and where? If I have to pick a published setting? I'll think about those.

Jason
2020-11-23, 07:02 PM
It depends, do I get to be my choice of race and social status?

Mastikator
2020-11-23, 07:25 PM
I'm torn between Ravnica and Eberron. Eberron seems slightly safer but Ravnica might have higher quality of life. I assume standard DND5e character creation rules apply.

Alcore
2020-11-23, 07:27 PM
But, what if you could choose the world or setting you would be born/reincarnated/transferred into? What wold would you pick?why would i go to one!? :smalleek:

I would have to kill each and every god, angel and demon just to protect my immortal soul when i finally die. Each setting is a dystopia hellhole or on its way to becoming one. Then you have all the mortal creatures that would love to eat, kill and enslave me with some the order being irrelevant.


Eberron or Dragonlance. The former has a high standard of living, the latter has a much lower occurrence of world ending events then the typical RPG.

Dragonlance... if i must choose.

Now i want to pick up the setting book :smallconfused:

Conradine
2020-11-23, 07:35 PM
I guess FATAL is not admitted ?

zarionofarabel
2020-11-23, 07:39 PM
If I get to be a level 20 magic-user, or a level 20 paladin, or a level 20 fighter, or a level 20...well you get the idea. The World of Greyhawk cause I don't know all that much about it so exploring it as a demigod would be fun.

If I have to inhabit them as a level 1 peasant like I am in real life...none. I will stick with what I got cause I generally don't worry about getting eaten by anything.

GrayDeath
2020-11-23, 08:09 PM
Assuming I can choose as What and Who, Eberron, as a Dragon thats truly Immortal.
Starting off at say Age 100ish, enjoying all the many milennia of reading various Dragon Prophesies, travelling, just enjoying BEING a Dragon, and stuff.

And since I will remain quite away of major conflicts, and wont die so the craptastic afterlives are not a thing, big YAY.

Honestly, that is the ONE setup I woulkd jump for, right now!


If I cant choose as who/What? Hell no, I`lls tay right here.

If I am forced to, Ravnica.

Quertus
2020-11-23, 08:10 PM
I think that the most permissive is:

Starting character in that system, added to what I have, in any system / setting, and I chose the time & place?

I think that the most restrictive is:

1st level D&D character, replacing my skills/stats/abilities, in a published system & setting, random/unknown time & place.

Before I begin digging into my answers (which could include up to 32 different responses for "D&D" and "not (just) D&D"),

Have I missed any important variables?

Are any of these outside the scope of this thread?

Pex
2020-11-23, 11:22 PM
Mount Celestia

Bytopia and Elysium are wonderful too. I'd love to visit, but I need that Law part to provide structure. To earn worthiness for the next layer provides Purpose while enjoying the tranquility of where you are.

Clistenes
2020-11-24, 02:38 AM
Since several people have asked about the starting conditions: your pick of race and class, standard starting wealth and equipment, and you start at any place in the world as an anonymous adventurer in a tavern like in the Icewind Dale game (but you don't have to remain as such, you can try to settle immediately...).


.For myself - would you consider choosing "Planecape" to be cheating?

Probably... you get to pick your choice among several heavens, so it may be too good...?

About the petitioner thing, while you gradually lose your identity, you won't suffer while experiencing it (unless you are evil and become a larva...).

aglondier
2020-11-24, 03:17 AM
I would like to think I am fairly bright, and the passage of time has granted me wisdom, so I would most likely jump into mage or cleric for my class. I would have to pick The Principalities of Glantri in the Mystara setting...unless I'm a cleric. As a cleric I would favour Karameikos. It's a fairly nice place, for a d&d setting. Always had a soft spot for Mystara.

You could not pay me to live in one of my own homebrew settings...the guy who designed them is nuts...

For a non-d&d setting...

DC...race: kryptonian...living the life of a zen beach bum on the Gold Coast of Australia...doing just enough to be part of big blues supporting cast and avoid being written out of the comics...

Aeon (trinity)...Upeo wa Macho...teleportation is seriously the best of the noetic aptitudes...explore the galaxy and punch badguys in the groin from half a kilometer away...

Telok
2020-11-24, 03:24 AM
Eroticon VI starting during one of the pan galactic Elvis impersonation festivals in the Dungeons the Dragoning 40K 7th Edition system.

Granted, after my players romped through the setting there are at least 4 potential universe destroying threats on the board (they were better at starting avalanches than preventing them) but they're all a decade or two from reaching critical mass. Plus a starting character is already an immortal semi-superhero who can begin play with their own space battleship and loyal crew.

Failing that, Star Trek. Post scarcity society, some options for immortality, memorize your timeline of where not to be on certain dates.

Porcupinata
2020-11-24, 03:35 AM
Maybe Mysteria(sp?) the BECMI world since AFAIK, it has no world ending threats or even major wars or really evil empires

In its adventures, Mystara has had two major wars sweep across the Brun (the default starting continent), one of which ended up sinking an entire continent. It also has both evil empires (e.g. Thyatis, Hule) and dystopian nightmare countries that aren't expansionist but which you wouldn't want to live in unless you're one of the ruling elite (e.g. Glantri, Darokin) and places that are just plain unpleasant for everyone even if you're one of the ruling elite (e.g. Broken Lands, Aengmor).

Having said that, it's still the D&D world I'd want to live in - assuming I didn't start in one of those areas, but somewhere more pleasant.

For a start, the place has much freer magic than most D&D settings. In that, I mean that no spells have expensive material components and there are no things like system shock rolls or limits to how often you can be raised from the dead. That, combined with the setting's assumption that most of the nobility are high level ex-adventurer types (it's kind of baked into the dominion rules) means that of all the D&D settings its the one with the most access to magical healing - pretty essential if you're going for a high-risk adventuring career. In most cases, if you die on an adventure and your party can get your body back to town you can be raised - even the example starting town (Threshold) has a cleric high enough level to do that. Not that you want to die, of course, but in terms of worst-case scenarios it's probably much less harsh than most other D&D settings.

Plus, once you get going in your adventuring career, the sky's the limit. It has a higher level-cap than most settings, and once you get high level you can start questing for immortality and become an immortal - at which point we're talking about living forever and having cosmic superhero levels of power and ability (e.g. creating and populating your own solar systems and planets).

Kitten Champion
2020-11-24, 03:51 AM
Not Eberron, mostly because all the novels largely end on notes of bitter cynicism and either projects the inevitable next world war or the Houses taking over and creating a dungeon punk dystopia. The world is a picture of a period of time where things have temporarily arced for the better generally, but underlying that is any number of threads that can be pulled which will lead the world into chaos again. Eberron's a world where the bleakest conspiracies tend to be true, and there's not much you can do about it.

Ravnica on the other hand seems the best to me. It's got much of the appeal of Eberron technologically but also has a degree of coziness to it as the world isn't on the constant edge of upheaval. While they're definitely sharply divided into these factions of there's, due to necessity and extremely powerful anti-war magic they've learned to make a functioning and durable society in spite of that. Which is honestly kind of comforting, especially that you're not indoctrinated into nor really obligated to join any specific faction nor immediately cut off any relationship with those outside of your faction.

As far as I can tell, you can be a boring accountant - or whatever - in Ravnica. It's a world where you can fall in love and have a family, and not live in constant existential horror that the powers-that-be will thresh you like so much wheat when it suits them. Sure, bad things could happen to you in Ravnica. A mutant abomination someone cooked up in a lab might destroy your home, and the one who insured your home is probably a sinister banking syndicate that's marginally worse than real world banks. There's a horde of violent anarchists out there who are probably quite obnoxious, and there are, of course, evil clowns. Still, it's probably fine on the whole. Relative to 2020.

noob
2020-11-24, 04:08 AM
Not Eberron, mostly because all the novels largely end on notes of bitter cynicism and either projects the inevitable next world war or the Houses taking over and creating a dungeon punk dystopia. The world is a picture of a period of time where things have temporarily arced for the better generally, but underlying that is any number of threads that can be pulled which will lead the world into chaos again. Eberron's a world where the bleakest conspiracies tend to be true, and there's not much you can do about it.

Ravnica on the other hand seems the best to me. It's got much of the appeal of Eberron technologically but also has a degree of coziness to it as the world isn't on the constant edge of upheaval. While they're definitely sharply divided into these factions of there's, due to necessity and extremely powerful anti-war magic they've learned to make a functioning and durable society in spite of that. Which is honestly kind of comforting, especially that you're not indoctrinated into nor really obligated to join any specific faction nor immediately cut off any relationship with those outside of your faction.

As far as I can tell, you can be a boring accountant - or whatever - in Ravnica. It's a world where you can fall in love and have a family, and not live in constant existential horror that the powers-that-be will thresh you like so much wheat when it suits them. Sure, bad things could happen to you in Ravnica. A mutant abomination someone cooked up in a lab might destroy your home, and the one who insured your home is probably a sinister banking syndicate that's marginally worse than real world banks. There's a horde of violent anarchists out there who are probably quite obnoxious, and there are, of course, evil clowns. Still, it's probably fine on the whole. Relative to 2020.

I have heard about plagues in the past: they had way higher death rates than they have in the modern world.
In a setting where there is literally anarchists that cooks up souped up new magical plagues with military intents each day(ravinca) plagues are probably way worse than in our current world
Also each day you might then get beaten up by law enforcers that follows to the letter the laws of one specific guild(since you were not born here you probably do not know those laws) an if you are not beaten up by those people do not worry: there is a waiting line for you to get beaten up with the gruul, the rakdos and the boros waiting.
If one day you get indebted be aware you might be condemned to become a ghost that will work decades to reimburse the debt.

It still is one of the best dnd settings to live in if you exclude good afterlives and RL earth within a dnd setting.

Lord Torath
2020-11-24, 08:16 AM
Gold or Silver dragon in Council of Wyrms?

The Known World (aka Mystara) offers the chance of Immortality, without the need to become a lich or something similarly icky. Maybe I'd start in the Village of Tanaroa, right after the PCs put down the zombie uprising. Nothing to worry about except the occasional giant insect or (much easier to fight off now that you've got a deal with a merchant vessel to provide metal weapons) or giant lobster (feast time!). Other than that, laze around on the beach! OK, there is also the occasional excursion to the tar pits, and a potential lycanthrope uprising.

Hecht in Greatspace is supposed to be lovely. Relatively peaceful, too!

Veritech Pilot in the REF during the Third Invid War? Get a chance to fly a VAF-9. If I can postpone until Guardians, I get to fly a VAF-10. (Of course, I have no idea what threats are lurking in Guardians, as Dave Deitrich never quite got that far).

Saint-Just
2020-11-24, 10:48 AM
Probably... you get to pick your choice among several heavens, so it may be too good...?


Well, it's the only safe-ish option I can remember offhand. I can commit to starting in Outlands and traveling through generally established portals, but that is as far as I would go without knowing rules of the game. I think you are probably not interested in answering 20+ questions about how exactly it's supposed to work, but even the small difference in ruleset can make a large difference in an actual quality of life. E.g. random encounters while traveling - is there untamed wilderness in which you can encounter something more dangerous to a 1st level character then a rabid bear to an average Earthling, or is it safe barring some freak occurrence, or you can only encounter dangerous things when you are strong enough to handle them (aka appropriate EL).


Since several people have asked about the starting conditions: your pick of race and class, standard starting wealth and equipment, and you start at any place in the world as an anonymous adventurer in a tavern like in the Icewind Dale game (but you don't have to remain as such, you can try to settle immediately...).

Again lots of assumptions required. In theory I would not want to go too far from my current humanoid chassis (though elf or elan may be tempting) but depending on danger level (and to a lesser extent how hard it is to improve your abilities) I may want to choose something powerful by itself - like a true dragon, or jann or... . Though again if having creature HDs and level adjustment makes it actually harder to become better in your class then maybe not. And that is just one small question.

I do not want to imply that the question is somehow bad, but it looks for me like it's vague enough that different people are, in effect, answering different questions.

Vahnavoi
2020-11-24, 11:44 AM
Probably one those that's either close to or accessible from something close to contemporary Earth - Spelljammer probably, or one of the other multiversal takes on the Great Wheel setting. I don't particularly need or want any specific power or leg-ups beyond just knowing I have a character class and ability to advance in it. :smalltongue:

gijoemike
2020-11-24, 12:01 PM
Just because it hasn't been said yet.

Al-Qadim - the land of Fate and 1001 Arabian nights. It was a standalone setting from 2nd ed. Fate is a powerful concept, one of the mage types has a genie familiar. Others are based on the 4 classical elements. It wasn't quite as war torn as Dragonlance, FR, and Greyhawk. The settings of Arabian Nights is interesting, but it is very seeped in Arabic culture. Think Agraba from Disney's Aladdin with roving bandit gangs of Ali-baba and his 40 thieves.

Martin Greywolf
2020-11-24, 01:36 PM
If it has medieval stasis, it's out. Subpar medical knowledge, constant lowkey warfare, violent crime rates that make Detroit at it's worst look like a safe heaven... no thanks.

Contemporary earth has its own problems, because you may well end up in some of the wonderful underdeveloped or police states, or both, for that matter.

If we're going away from DnD, then definitely Schlock Mercenary, it's almost utopian in certain regards. If not, probably some form of urban fantasy or sci fi version of DnD that isn't a dystopian or postapocalyptic nightmare? It's gonna be very niche, I'll tell you that much. Or maybe there is a Star Trek version of DnD somewhere...

Eldan
2020-11-24, 01:42 PM
Gold or Silver dragon in Council of Wyrms?

Oh wow, why didn't I think of that. I think that's pretty unbeatable for me, unless I can choose to be on one of the good aligned outer planes.

Xervous
2020-11-24, 02:23 PM
Oh wow, why didn't I think of that. I think that's pretty unbeatable for me, unless I can choose to be on one of the good aligned outer planes.

The prospect of dealing with Golds though, specifically on politics! One need not look further than the common jest. “How does one know when a gold isn’t flaming? When their maw is shut.”

Jason
2020-11-24, 03:53 PM
Star Trek. Replicators, advanced medical science, holodecks, no money required, chance to see the galaxy...

For D&D, Planescape. Or Spelljammer. If I get bored of Krynn I can hop a ship to another crystal sphere.

Clistenes
2020-11-24, 05:01 PM
Hecht in Greatspace is supposed to be lovely. Relatively peaceful, too!

It is supposed to be peaceful and beautiful, but very rural. As in, primitive tribes ruled by Druids kind of rural... Don't expect many creature comforts... If you want milk, you need your own cow...


I do not want to imply that the question is somehow bad, but it looks for me like it's vague enough that different people are, in effect, answering different questions.

Really? I don't think it's so vague...

Level 1 character, your pick or race and class (player character races, you have to be level 1, remember, so no Ancient Wyrms or whatever), standard starting wealth for your class. You can choose the place, but you are an anonymous adventurer, not a duke or something like that...

It should be a D&D world/setting, I don't care the edition.

EDIT: The original post's wording may be somewhat confusing... I will edit it...

Quertus
2020-11-24, 10:42 PM
So, D&D, 1st level, pick my race, I still choose my homebrew 2e world of Placia.For race/class...

Build:
a) deity, because it is a race, not a status. This would actually be really problematic, as there haven't been any new gods in... well, ever. So... unless I think this through very carefully, it's actually probably not a good idea.
b) otherwise... oh, Nelly, let's go with... Shapeshifter (Race) Advanced Shapeshifter (class) / Wizard / MtG Mage. Hooray non-human multiclassing rules!

Upsides: Trivial to get Quertus to (pawn me off to some high-level folk who will) help me power-level and keep me safe. Really easy for me to play most of that, probably easy enough to be most of that. No world-ending threats (unless I really **** things up). No level limit / racial level cap / anything like that to worry about. Reality is really stable (and the world will always remain 2e). Immortality is... not just an option, but kinda the default for my Shapeshifter race.

Downsides: Yeah, Placia kinda ran on Mindrape (or, well, Mindrape-light) decades before TSR/WotC/whoever invented that spell - I might not continue to be *me* (well, at least not *completely* me) if I attract attention without outside help. Like most D&D worlds, modern creature comforts would be non-trivial to acquire; however, Cantrip, Cure Disease, and Placia actually having a high tech rating make it not actually impossible to have a high standard of living - especially not if I count *myself* as a spell component for Mirage Arcana. It's 2e, so leveling is slow. Also, the random encounter tables absolutely do not take your level into consideration, so it can be extremely deadly for the unaware at 1st level. Cursed magic items are a thing. And there's plenty of war, and not much for me to Explore.

-----

For non-D&D worlds, I still choose the homebrew system of Paradox (think Rifts, but good); specifically, I suppose I'll choose the Not!Earth setting where one of my PCs settled down, as the created construct of the mages from Not!D&D who evacuated to and settled there.

Build: Construct Wizard.

Upsides: Racially immortal. Modern(ish) Earth, plenty of creature comforts. With my "mastery" of the system and metagame knowledge, I should have no trouble, even as a starting character, as I had no trouble as *me*.

Downsides: Not!Rift travel is permanently soul-scarring - I'll avoid any of the Not!Namesake activities like the plague. Also, modern(ish) Earth - I can look forward to all-too-human stupidity unless I do something about it.

-----

For "Published" D&D world, I think I'll stretch the definitions a bit (a lot), and choose the Forgotten Realms as presented in The Open Door. Those Realms can clearly accept "(WH40K) Demon" as race, and Wild Mage is looking to be an absolutely *amazing* class in that setting.

Build: (WH40K) Demon Wild Mage former human former Cleric of Larskuld

Upsides: Probably the most potential for creature comforts from a published D&D world. Probably the most potential for killing off the gods & replacing them with something worthwhile from a published D&D world.

Downsides: D&D lack of creature comforts, very war-torn, 2e slow leveling, uncertain how long I have before 4e hits in the new timeline, and I'm not sure how to work "Cleric of Larskuld" into my build :smallamused: Actually, I can cheat it in with human dual-classing, declaring myself to have just duel-classed to "1st level" as Wild Mage, and say that this happened as a human, before I became a demon.

-----

For published non-D&D world... this one's tricky. Ultimately, I'm going Marvel, I just might be starting in DC.

Build:
a) In Marvel FACERIP, you can begin play by simply picking an existing character to use as your PC. Maybe Eternity?
b) I'm not sure about the system for playing in DC, but some alternate-reality Kryptonian (ie, who isn't vulnerable to Kryptonite) sounds like a good starting race (although my first thought was to be a Flash).

Plan: I want to start back in time (EDIT: or travel back in time, as necessary), where I can (travel to Marvel as necessary and) take the Quantum Bands before Quasar tries them on. Using those, plus whatever power I can start with, plus my metagame knowledge, my plan is to collect the infinity stones, cosmic cubes (safely housed in (something based on) time-scryed Magus containment device), etc etc.

Upsides: Starting characters are gonzo. McGuffins are gonzo. Metagame knowledge is gonzo. And it's Earth... plus infinite anything to explore.

Downsides: Without my crazy power-grab plans, there is no real security to speak of in a Marvel universe - Cosmic beings and world-ending threats are just another day at the office.

-----

Conclusion: The only one of these where I'm not trying to go for absolutely crazy amounts of power ASAP is Paradox, where I'm starting on Earth, as something almost certain to outlive humanity, with mad amounts of (metagame) power already.

Can you blame me?

Jorren
2020-11-25, 12:11 PM
Ravenloft, of course.

https://cdn3.whatculture.com/images/2014/06/Joker.gif

noob
2020-11-25, 01:38 PM
Ravenloft, of course.

https://cdn3.whatculture.com/images/2014/06/Joker.gif

Some people analysed it as being surprisingly safe relatively to more known settings.
If you just do your commoner job the odds of death are not very high.

Jason
2020-11-25, 01:45 PM
Some people analysed it as being surprisingly safe relatively to more known settings.
If you just do your commoner job the odds of death are not very high.
But if you're a PC class and you want to do more than just be a farmer then you're probably not very safe.

Lord Torath
2020-11-25, 02:43 PM
Hecht in Greatspace is supposed to be lovely. Relatively peaceful, too!It is supposed to be peaceful and beautiful, but very rural. As in, primitive tribes ruled by Druids kind of rural... Don't expect many creature comforts... If you want milk, you need your own cow...True. But it will be a beautiful cow, and your neighbors will all be beautiful, too! I'm sure there's a lovely tropical beach I could live at. And if I ever need any money, I can just clean out the guild showers scrub the barnacles off the bottom of my skiff (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1029.html).

Quertus
2020-11-26, 08:35 AM
To answer in the spirit that I believe the question was asked, of what world would be best for the average "adventurer":

2e Placia is out, because leveling is 2e slow, it's not "level appropriate", and your reward for attracting attention (in the "best" timeframe) is Mindrape.

Marvel is out (and probably DC is, too) because world-ending threats are just another day at the office.

So my revised "spirited" list looks like:

2e Placia -> Everday
Paradox (Not!Rifts) Not!Earth
Forgotten Realms as presented in The Open Door
Marvel(/DC) -> Harry Potter

Everday offers a highly-stable, low-level-adventurer friendly environment, devoid of most of the most horrific monsters and world-ending threats. Creature comforts... could be better on the whole, although several cities have enough "industrialized magic" and/or "specifically/magically-bred creatures" to meet or beat modern Earth in many ways.

Harry Potter offers all the comforts of modern Earth, with little to worry about besides date-rape drugs being considered standard courting procedure, and child safety being an oxymoron.

PhoenixPhyre
2020-11-26, 03:05 PM
If I'm trying to live a peaceful, ordinary life, none of them. The qualities that make them good adventuring settings also make them unsuitable for quiet peaceful lives on average. Plus a decided lack of internet capability in most D&D worlds.

If I'm trying to be an adventurer and go on grand adventures, well, not the FR. Too inconsistent, too many world-ending threats on a daily basis, plus all the superheroes OP NPCs running around. Don't like the aesthetic (or the grey-on-grey morality) of Eberron. Arthas is right out. Don't know enough about most of the others.

So I'd have to say my own setting, Dawn of Hope. There are parts I'd love to explore in person, and there's a decided lack of world-ending threats or OP NPCs. Stable enough, but yet exciting enough. Still lots of nasty parts though. Of course I'm biased.

Telok
2020-11-26, 04:44 PM
Ok, got it. The Rock of Bral from Spelljammer. It's a reasonably large, civilized, self-sufficient, trading town/small city in a convenient but unspecified crystal sphere. No major disasters, no world ending threats, no random plot screw-ups. You can get just about anywhere from there and find almost anything (or at least where to get it).

Lord Torath
2020-11-26, 05:37 PM
Ok, got it. The Rock of Bral from Spelljammer. It's a reasonably large, civilized, self-sufficient, trading town/small city in a convenient but unspecified crystal sphere. No major disasters, no world ending threats, no random plot screw-ups. You can get just about anywhere from there and find almost anything (or at least where to get it).There was that Jihad by the Thri-Kreen Empire that one time, though...

Amdy_vill
2020-11-26, 05:45 PM
Terra as a level 1 wizard. if you don't know Terra is a crystal sphere in Spelljammer witch is just earth but in the dnd universe. it's like the 1600s-1700s so the industrial revolution is knocking on the door and a wizard shows up with knowledge of the future.

Quertus
2020-11-26, 09:55 PM
So I'd have to say my own setting, Dawn of Hope. There are parts I'd love to explore in person, and there's a decided lack of world-ending threats or OP NPCs. Stable enough, but yet exciting enough. Still lots of nasty parts though. Of course I'm biased.

Edition(s)? Draw?

PhoenixPhyre
2020-11-26, 10:45 PM
Edition(s)? Draw?

5e. Originally 4e, but that didn't last long before I (working through the players) blew up the world and remade it for 5e. Including killing off all the gods (something I'm sure you're in favor of). The new ones aren't really gods as much as the middle-management for the universe.

For me, the big thing about it is an attempt to do kitchen sink...right. And coherently. I want to find a place for everything (that I can). For the players, the big draw is that it's a living world. The things the players do stick around for other campaigns. Including things I wouldn't have thought of.

A few key differences from "normal" settings:
* Very different planar structure. Sort of World Axis meets blender, with most of the planes squashed into a few: Mortal (not material), Shadow (a combination of astral, ethereal, feywild, and shadowfell, plus the afterlife), Astral (home of gods and devils, as well as sundry other things), 12 elemental planes (basically elements + quasi-elements, one for each month), and abyssal (a prison dimension). None of these are infinite. In fact, they're all no larger than the inner solar system (4 AU in radius).
* Something you wouldn't like: no inter-setting travel. The setting is cut off from the rest of the multiverse by a crystal shell. Different from others, this one prevents all travel in or out. And beyond it is the Dark Beyond (basically the Far Realms); all the other settings are across an infinite conceptual distance through a realm of pure thought. Filled with nasty things like memetic, parasitic thoughts.
* No alignment. For anyone. Gods, devils, angels, no one. Instead, the differences are by source of energy.
* No super-long-lived humanoid races. Gwerin (high elves) hit 200 at most, and they're the longest-lived.
* Dwarves are Mongolian, not Scottish. And dwarf women have beards. And dwarves, goliaths, and giants are all basically related.
* Most of the races are artificial--halflings only date about 600 years, and kobolds have been around like 50.
* There aren't 3 goblin species, there's only one. Goblins, with hobgoblins and bugbears being temporary "mutations".

I don't do world-shaking threats. I've got some places I'd love to have players go so I can figure out what exactly is there, but no one has so far.

thorr-kan
2020-11-27, 12:29 AM
Just because it hasn't been said yet.

Al-Qadim - the land of Fate and 1001 Arabian nights. It was a standalone setting from 2nd ed. Fate is a powerful concept, one of the mage types has a genie familiar. Others are based on the 4 classical elements. It wasn't quite as war torn as Dragonlance, FR, and Greyhawk. The settings of Arabian Nights is interesting, but it is very seeped in Arabic culture. Think Agraba from Disney's Aladdin with roving bandit gangs of Ali-baba and his 40 thieves.
Ah, yah beat me to it.

Al-Qadim and Zakhara all the way for a D&D world. Continent-spanning common culture, even though there are regional differences. Major cities are fairly stable. Gods are distant and don't walk among you. It's an autocratic monarchy, but the monarchy's been stable for centuries.

First-level thief (merchant-rogue). Half-elf. Money to make and time to learn it.

Otherwise, Star Trek.

EccentricCircle
2020-11-27, 03:09 AM
Planescape and Spelljammer both have advantages. As very cosmopolitan settings they have a good chance for quality of life. However both also have their perils. Eberron is a good pick, its both relatively high tech, and perhaps more importantly socially progressive if you pick the right country. Most other settings are very much in medieval stasis, even if they shouldn't be.

I don't agree thwt ravenloft is safe for peasants. Depending on the domain you might be turned into undead at the whim of the dark lord. You could be enslaved by vampires, illithids or worse. In any domain you are cowering in your hovel in a state of perpetual dread. Most people only know Ravenloft from Barovia, which is honestly one of the least terrible domains, and even that is pretty grim.

If I had to pick one down to earth setting. Probably Al Qadim. It's civilised, tolerant, has good living conditions for a fantasy world and has room for people who aren't adventurous to live normal lives. So long as someone in faerun doesn't kill the wrong god and blow up the whole planet, then its basically free of metaplot catastrophes. All in all a nice place to live. It's maybe nit as nice as eberron, but has far fewr things trying to eat your soul or open portals to dark dimensions releasing cosmic horors frkm the dawn of time. So it just wins out.

Eldan
2020-11-27, 09:19 AM
Level 1 character, your pick or race and class (player character races, you have to be level 1, remember, so no Ancient Wyrms or whatever), standard starting wealth for your class. You can choose the place, but you are an anonymous adventurer, not a duke or something like that...

It should be a D&D world/setting, I don't care the edition.


THat's why we're saying Council of Wyrms, though. In the Council of Wyrms setting, all the PCs are full dragons.

GrayDeath
2020-11-27, 06:41 PM
To answer in the spirit that I believe the question was asked, of what world would be best for the average "adventurer":

So my revised "spirited" list looks like:

2e Placia -> Everday
Paradox (Not!Rifts) Not!Earth
Forgotten Realms as presented in The Open Door
Marvel(/DC) -> Harry Potter


I am really pleased that you liked the story enough to already be using its setting.

Many people I shoiowed it to agreed that the author was bashing "the Good Setting Forces of X" too much.

To which I say, explain any form of the Prime Directive as prime Directive that does not translate into "a little change in a species is horible...but it dying out anturally, who cares?"


Anyway, coming back to the OP, since it was clarified one could choose class/XP etc, I would be an adult Silver Dragon with some low teens in Sorcerer and 2-3 levels in 2-3 classes I simply like the feel/fluff of.

Cause you dont need to optimize as a Dragon in Eberron with guaranteed nigh Immortality on top. ^^

noob
2020-11-27, 07:09 PM
I am really pleased that you liked the story enough to already be using its setting.

Many people I shoiowed it to agreed that the author was bashing "the Good Setting Forces of X" too much.

To which I say, explain any form of the Prime Directive as prime Directive that does not translate into "a little change in a species is horible...but it dying out anturally, who cares?"


Anyway, coming back to the OP, since it was clarified one could choose class/XP etc, I would be an adult Silver Dragon with some low teens in Sorcerer and 2-3 levels in 2-3 classes I simply like the feel/fluff of.

Cause you dont need to optimize as a Dragon in Eberron with guaranteed nigh Immortality on top. ^^

The first poster clearly posted that you had only one class level.
As for the race is it a valid starting one for a player race of that setting?
If yes then it is fine.

GrayDeath
2020-11-27, 07:56 PM
Then he changed it again after the first undefined post, I am quite sure I remember a "Race and Class of your choice".

And depending on WHAT you paly adventurewise,, in Eberron (or more clearly on Argonessen) playing Dragions (Council of Wyrms) is a Go.

So I have to wait with more levels, hmmm, retooling it to mature Adult Silver Dragon (I want to have a lot of time to grow as well^^), and a Level of....Artificer.

Cause Sorcerer is built in any way.

Quertus
2020-11-27, 07:58 PM
I am really pleased that you liked the story enough to already be using its setting.

Anyway, coming back to the OP, since it was clarified one could choose class/XP etc, I would be an adult Silver Dragon with some low teens in Sorcerer and 2-3 levels in 2-3 classes I simply like the feel/fluff of.

Cause you dont need to optimize as a Dragon in Eberron with guaranteed nigh Immortality on top. ^^

I have no such issues with the story - had it attacked the "good guys" unfairly, and then held up, say, Drow society as the paragon of perfection, then I would have had a problem with it.

Speaking of Dragons (and this is for anyone)... Eberron (vs?) Council of Wyrms? What do dragons do in this/these settings?

For Eberron in particular, has a Dragon ever sought godhood?


5e. Originally 4e, but that didn't last long before I (working through the players) blew up the world and remade it for 5e.

So, Teleport Through Time (if it somehow existed in 5e), do you go back to 4e? Was the filling replaced inside the candy shell, or was the whole construct scrapped and rebuilt?


Including killing off all the gods (something I'm sure you're in favor of).

Indeed. Thanks for the laugh! :smallamused:


The new ones aren't really gods as much as the middle-management for the universe.

Mechanically, they're...? (functionally, they're presumably still responsible for whatever is "wrong" with the setting though, right?)


* Something you wouldn't like: no inter-setting travel. The setting is cut off from the rest of the multiverse by a crystal shell. Different from others, this one prevents all travel in or out.

So, as much as you may want to explore there, even if "going to other worlds/settings" is somehow possible, you obviously can't go there? So your choice is invalid?


* No alignment. For anyone. Gods, devils, angels, no one. Instead, the differences are by source of energy.

Also something I like.


I don't do world-shaking threats.

So... safe, because the GM says so?


For the players, the big draw is that it's a living world. The things the players do stick around for other campaigns. Including things I wouldn't have thought of.

Shouldn't that be true of any world (at least from the perspective of those who live there, which is what we're discussing)? :smallconfused:

Although that's a lot of cool stuff about why the players would be interested in the world (and I agree, if it were an open world, I would love to have PC(s) go there), what I actually meant was, what is the draw for you (or for "generic adventurer") to pick this world over another to live there. No world-shaking threats is definitely an answer to that question. But, for example, is there any other reason why I should expect adventurers there to generally fare better than in Everday (which is arguably a world-shaking-event-free kitchen sink with some of the nastiest things removed)?

PhoenixPhyre
2020-11-27, 09:05 PM
So, Teleport Through Time (if it somehow existed in 5e), do you go back to 4e? Was the filling replaced inside the candy shell, or was the whole construct scrapped and rebuilt?


The world itself is independent of the edition--mechanics are not physics. Before the Cataclysm, magic was different. That's true. But really, I've reshaped the entire thing from the ground up since then--a few events have carried over, but the reasons/metaphysics behind them has grown beyond recognition. Which is just as well. When it started, it was Points of Light with the serial numbers filed off and a rough map. Now, well, I'm at something like 300 articles, with ~400 that I know of to write. And that's only a tiny fraction of the world.

So if time travel (in that sense) were truly possible[1], you'd get something that likely would fit 5e's mechanics better than 4e's, but the magic wouldn't fit quite as well. So yes. And no. And something else entirely.



Indeed. Thanks for the laugh! :smallamused:


I figured you'd like that. Basically the Great Mechanism that actually runs the universe (although more like a machine than a person) cut them off from their power to preserve that power to keep the whole planar structure from going wrong.



Mechanically, they're...? (functionally, they're presumably still responsible for whatever is "wrong" with the setting though, right?)


The 16 true gods exist to direct pieces of the power streams flowing through the Great Mechanism towards mortals when they pray. They're ascended mortals, many of whom did not choose that. 3 of them (magic, unnatural death, and practical jokes) are the three former adventurers who broke the world. They're paying for their decision. Gods are both more limited and more powerful than mortals. More powerful--they cannot be killed and within their narrow domains have nearly omnipotent power...under severe limits. They can't interact directly with mortals. They have to act through clerics and other agents, and even their more significant agents are sharply limited in the Mortal world. The Great Mechanism is keeping a tight leash on them this time around. They can answer questions, but only obliquely and imperfectly. They're not significantly more intelligent than others--they're basically mortals with really important jobs. And while they do those jobs, they won't die. They don't rely on worship--in fact, they really don't care. As long as they answer prayers and act as the metaphysical complaint department in their particular domains, they stay in power.

There are many other "ascended" beings of lesser power but greater freedom. Some of those depend on worship, but that worship also shapes them. So you can be a "godling", but what your followers believe about you will alter who you are.

And before you ask, no, none of them are responsible for any kind of eternal afterlife. There isn't one. All souls, after death, enter Shadow. There they live again, taking bodies of shadow-stuff and acting. Until eventually they can no longer do so (for many reasons) and fade away. Where does the Spark, the self go after that? No one, not even the gods know. And that's a question I won't answer, not even for myself.



So, as much as you may want to explore there, even if "going to other worlds/settings" is somehow possible, you obviously can't go there? So your choice is invalid?


It's possible to leave the sphere. Re-entering it means that you'll be hunted by the angels. Because that's (part of) their purpose, to destroy anything coming in from the Beyond. Because out there is the Awakener, which desires the end of everything.



Also something I like.


Yeah. In-universe, the big shift from pre-cataclysm to post-cataclysm was in part due to binding Change/Chaos into the world as Choice. Everyone and everything has free will. Sure, you're unlikely to find a good demon (since they consume souls to live). But it's not impossible. And many of them aren't horrible and will work with others. One of the Princes, in fact, has a long-running goal to close the Oblivion Gate and heal the Abyss. He's the ur-lich, the one who discovered and perfected the ritual.



So... safe, because the GM says so?


Isn't that the way of all settings?



Shouldn't that be true of any world (at least from the perspective of those who live there, which is what we're discussing)? :smallconfused:

Although that's a lot of cool stuff about why the players would be interested in the world (and I agree, if it were an open world, I would love to have PC(s) go there), what I actually meant was, what is the draw for you (or for "generic adventurer") to pick this world over another to live there. No world-shaking threats is definitely an answer to that question. But, for example, is there any other reason why I should expect adventurers there to generally fare better than in Everday (which is arguably a world-shaking-event-free kitchen sink with some of the nastiest things removed)?

For me personally, there are many places there which I've sketched out and want to see what's really there. Because that, for me, is the core of why I play D&D. To find out what's really there over the next hill. Despite all my designs and plans, I won't really know until I go there. Either vicariously through players' eyes or (in a fantasy) through my own. Nothing I write is canon for the world until it appears in a game. And every time I go somewhere new (in a game), I discover parts of the world that I didn't consciously put there but that arise unprompted out of interactions with the players. I see things through their eyes that make me stop and wonder at the world that is unveiled before us.

For a generic adventurer, because adventurers on Quartus (yes, that's one vowel off) are special...well...the ones that survive and gain strength. Ie the ones from whose number we pull PCs. For most people there's a pretty sharp fall-off in "onset of diminishing returns to practice". A plateau-effect in power gains. For most people, that's below 1st level (5e-equivalent). For a super-vast majority (>75%), that's below 5th level. Adventurers (successful ones anyway) are always at least in that upper tier. And special ones have unknown limits. So a successful adventurer can quickly rise to become a mover and shaker. Even 5th level puts you in the top echelon. Plus, there's always things to do, places to go, places where your mark can be set on the world. It's a young world, reborn after fire and destruction. Not hedged up with nations and established Powers.

For a more generic person, it's generally pretty peaceful and prosperous. Sure, you won't have modern tech. That's an aesthetic thing. But none of the nations (of the main area I've developed) are at war. A few of the lords are obnoxious, but only obnoxious. Monsters generally don't threaten the heartlands very often--the Registered Companies do a pretty good job of preventing that. And there's a place for everyone. Don't want to worship the gods? Don't go to the Holy Kaelthian Republic. But Byssia will welcome you--most of them don't worship them either (would you worship the Second Assistant Undersecretary for Paper Cutting?). Want to engage in commerce and get wealthy? Rauviz City is probably your best bet (in western Noefra anyway). Etc.

Now it's not a utopia. There's darkness and corruption in all things to a greater or lesser degree, and the poor male halflings have it pretty bad. But adventuring is a sanctioned "out" in all societies--once you're claimed by a Registered Company, the bounds of cultural obligation can no longer be enforced. You're still under the laws of the land, but they can't drag you back to a forced marriage (etc).

[1] forward time travel is possible. Just (have someone else) detonate a Concept Bomb and you'll end up somewhen (and possibly somewhere) else. Control is, well, uncertain. And surviving might be difficult--most mortals need things like causality to function. And the whole point of a concept bomb is that it unleashes the influence of a Broken Concept. Instead of order, you get stasis. Instead of memory, you get amnesia. Instead of causality, you get, well, random connections between space and time and a decided lack of anything like linear cause and effect. Don't detonate it yourself, as that takes a sacrifice. Willing is better.

Quertus
2020-11-27, 11:34 PM
The world itself is independent of the edition--mechanics are not physics. Before the Cataclysm, magic was different. That's true. But really, I've reshaped the entire thing from the ground up since then--a few events have carried over, but the reasons/metaphysics behind them has grown beyond recognition. Which is just as well. When it started, it was Points of Light with the serial numbers filed off and a rough map. Now, well, I'm at something like 300 articles, with ~400 that I know of to write. And that's only a tiny fraction of the world.

So if time travel (in that sense) were truly possible[1], you'd get something that likely would fit 5e's mechanics better than 4e's, but the magic wouldn't fit quite as well. So yes. And no. And something else entirely.



I figured you'd like that. Basically the Great Mechanism that actually runs the universe (although more like a machine than a person) cut them off from their power to preserve that power to keep the whole planar structure from going wrong.



The 16 true gods exist to direct pieces of the power streams flowing through the Great Mechanism towards mortals when they pray. They're ascended mortals, many of whom did not choose that. 3 of them (magic, unnatural death, and practical jokes) are the three former adventurers who broke the world. They're paying for their decision. Gods are both more limited and more powerful than mortals. More powerful--they cannot be killed and within their narrow domains have nearly omnipotent power...under severe limits. They can't interact directly with mortals. They have to act through clerics and other agents, and even their more significant agents are sharply limited in the Mortal world. The Great Mechanism is keeping a tight leash on them this time around. They can answer questions, but only obliquely and imperfectly. They're not significantly more intelligent than others--they're basically mortals with really important jobs. And while they do those jobs, they won't die. They don't rely on worship--in fact, they really don't care. As long as they answer prayers and act as the metaphysical complaint department in their particular domains, they stay in power.

There are many other "ascended" beings of lesser power but greater freedom. Some of those depend on worship, but that worship also shapes them. So you can be a "godling", but what your followers believe about you will alter who you are.

And before you ask, no, none of them are responsible for any kind of eternal afterlife. There isn't one. All souls, after death, enter Shadow. There they live again, taking bodies of shadow-stuff and acting. Until eventually they can no longer do so (for many reasons) and fade away. Where does the Spark, the self go after that? No one, not even the gods know. And that's a question I won't answer, not even for myself.



It's possible to leave the sphere. Re-entering it means that you'll be hunted by the angels. Because that's (part of) their purpose, to destroy anything coming in from the Beyond. Because out there is the Awakener, which desires the end of everything.



Yeah. In-universe, the big shift from pre-cataclysm to post-cataclysm was in part due to binding Change/Chaos into the world as Choice. Everyone and everything has free will. Sure, you're unlikely to find a good demon (since they consume souls to live). But it's not impossible. And many of them aren't horrible and will work with others. One of the Princes, in fact, has a long-running goal to close the Oblivion Gate and heal the Abyss. He's the ur-lich, the one who discovered and perfected the ritual.



Isn't that the way of all settings?



For me personally, there are many places there which I've sketched out and want to see what's really there. Because that, for me, is the core of why I play D&D. To find out what's really there over the next hill. Despite all my designs and plans, I won't really know until I go there. Either vicariously through players' eyes or (in a fantasy) through my own. Nothing I write is canon for the world until it appears in a game. And every time I go somewhere new (in a game), I discover parts of the world that I didn't consciously put there but that arise unprompted out of interactions with the players. I see things through their eyes that make me stop and wonder at the world that is unveiled before us.

For a generic adventurer, because adventurers on Quartus (yes, that's one vowel off) are special...well...the ones that survive and gain strength. Ie the ones from whose number we pull PCs. For most people there's a pretty sharp fall-off in "onset of diminishing returns to practice". A plateau-effect in power gains. For most people, that's below 1st level (5e-equivalent). For a super-vast majority (>75%), that's below 5th level. Adventurers (successful ones anyway) are always at least in that upper tier. And special ones have unknown limits. So a successful adventurer can quickly rise to become a mover and shaker. Even 5th level puts you in the top echelon. Plus, there's always things to do, places to go, places where your mark can be set on the world. It's a young world, reborn after fire and destruction. Not hedged up with nations and established Powers.

For a more generic person, it's generally pretty peaceful and prosperous. Sure, you won't have modern tech. That's an aesthetic thing. But none of the nations (of the main area I've developed) are at war. A few of the lords are obnoxious, but only obnoxious. Monsters generally don't threaten the heartlands very often--the Registered Companies do a pretty good job of preventing that. And there's a place for everyone. Don't want to worship the gods? Don't go to the Holy Kaelthian Republic. But Byssia will welcome you--most of them don't worship them either (would you worship the Second Assistant Undersecretary for Paper Cutting?). Want to engage in commerce and get wealthy? Rauviz City is probably your best bet (in western Noefra anyway). Etc.

Now it's not a utopia. There's darkness and corruption in all things to a greater or lesser degree, and the poor male halflings have it pretty bad. But adventuring is a sanctioned "out" in all societies--once you're claimed by a Registered Company, the bounds of cultural obligation can no longer be enforced. You're still under the laws of the land, but they can't drag you back to a forced marriage (etc).

[1] forward time travel is possible. Just (have someone else) detonate a Concept Bomb and you'll end up somewhen (and possibly somewhere) else. Control is, well, uncertain. And surviving might be difficult--most mortals need things like causality to function. And the whole point of a concept bomb is that it unleashes the influence of a Broken Concept. Instead of order, you get stasis. Instead of memory, you get amnesia. Instead of causality, you get, well, random connections between space and time and a decided lack of anything like linear cause and effect. Don't detonate it yourself, as that takes a sacrifice. Willing is better.


Oh, good call.


The world itself is independent of the edition--mechanics are not physics.

Yes and no. Before setting-specific rules (which Placia and Everday both have plenty; not knowing 5e, I'm guessing Dawn of Hope Quartus does, as well), I expect 3e to have Teleport Through Time, stat-dependent save DCs, and "I'm an ancient dragon makes gaining XP / learning more as a Monk 1 harder than a human Monk 1". Whereas I expect 2e to have cool Wild Mages, static save DCs, duel- vs multi-class, etc. And I expect these to be actually noticeable at the physics level. And 4e to have a distinct pecking order, and if you aren't the absolute best in the group at a task, you'd best not try to help (actually, as annoyed as I get at some people "helping", I could probably stand (that part of) living in a 4e world - I just can't stand playing the game). Or 5e to have adventurers that still run from small bands or orcs at epic levels, and prefer to hire armies to shoot down dragons than to do so themselves.

I expect which edition you're in to affect how powerful a caster needs to be in order to craft items (Invisibility is still beyond you, but you can craft scrolls?), or whether being able to craft X is in any way related to the ability to craft Y.

Quertus (my signature academia mage, for whom this account is named) explicitly studies the strange sets of similarities between the underlying laws of magic on various worlds. Among other things that he studies.


It's possible to leave the sphere. Re-entering it means that you'll be hunted by the angels. Because that's (part of) their purpose, to destroy anything coming in from the Beyond. Because out there is the Awakener, which desires the end of everything.

That doesn't sound like a closed setting to me.

So, if you showed up in your setting, being from outside, you'd be hounded by angels? And you'd still want to go there?


Isn't that the way of all settings?

Well, no. Just like an action can succeed or fail based on mechanics, the needs of the story, pacing, or any number of other reasons, the why of a world's stability (or lack thereof) need not be based on "because the GM says so".

For example, Placia is inordinately stable (sort of) because the mechanics of the world enforce that stability. Placia is actually caught in a time loop, repeating its circular history forever. The details may change, but the general course of history is inexorable. Quertus has gently poked at it - enough to decide that he doesn't care to even attempt to see if it can be changed, and certainly doesn't care to gain the attention of any hypothetical being(s) capable of having set such a thing in motion. Adventurers can make amazing changes, and, from their perspective, everything will appear to run on mechanics and be as mutable as one would expect given those mechanics, but they cannot truly derail the "million year plan" of the world, any more than cavemen could have prevented the Ice Age, or the formation of the asteroid belt.

Now, Placia could be caught in a time loop "because I say so", or because of actions that some of my players took, or because the plot demands it, or... etc etc. But Placia is stable (in the grand scheme) because the mechanics say so.

Placia is always 2e because I say so (not that I expect the mechanics to ever disagree). Magic on Placia behaves in very stable ways because the mechanics say so. Multiclassing / Racial level limits are so "forgiving" / open / whatever because of a mix of "because I say so" and because the races are fundamentally / mechanically / "physics"-ly / psychologically different from default. The "current" timeline is the way it is largely because of actions that the PCs have taken.

All of these things have different root causes I can point to; they aren't all simply "because I say so".


For me personally, there are many places there which I've sketched out and want to see what's really there.

Well, fair enough. Getting to Explore your setting could certainly be a big draw. I can probably appreciate that better than most. I could Explore Everday, but Placia... too much of what I would care about is known (at least, to me). (to use my classic example, if there's floating rocks, I already know why they are floating, and wouldn't be inspired to invent something new based on some cool new reveal.) Also, most of it isn't what I would consider "pretty" - I would not, personally, enjoy the aesthetics of most of Placia (not the flora/fauna, not the geography, not the architecture, not the clothing styles, not even most of the art).


5e

For most people there's a pretty sharp fall-off in "onset of diminishing returns to practice". A plateau-effect in power gains. For most people, that's below 1st level (5e-equivalent). For a super-vast majority (>75%), that's below 5th level. Adventurers (successful ones anyway) are always at least in that upper tier.

I'm not sure if "most adventurers never become successful", "most adventurers cannot learn their way past 5th level", and "it's 5e - levels don't matter (you'll still get crushed by orcs)" really make the "Dawn of Hope" setting sound terribly appealing to the average adventurer. A draw for playing there as a PC maybe, but not for living there as an adventurer.

If my soul knew that it wanted to be an adventurer, and got to pick which world to incarnate into, that description certainly sounds like a turn-off to me.

PhoenixPhyre
2020-11-28, 12:33 AM
Yes and no. Before setting-specific rules (which Placia and Everday both have plenty; not knowing 5e, I'm guessing Dawn of Hope Quartus does, as well), I expect 3e to have Teleport Through Time, stat-dependent save DCs, and "I'm an ancient dragon makes gaining XP / learning more as a Monk 1 harder than a human Monk 1". Whereas I expect 2e to have cool Wild Mages, static save DCs, duel- vs multi-class, etc. And I expect these to be actually noticeable at the physics level. And 4e to have a distinct pecking order, and if you aren't the absolute best in the group at a task, you'd best not try to help (actually, as annoyed as I get at some people "helping", I could probably stand (that part of) living in a 4e world - I just can't stand playing the game). Or 5e to have adventurers that still run from small bands or orcs at epic levels, and prefer to hire armies to shoot down dragons than to do so themselves.

I expect which edition you're in to affect how powerful a caster needs to be in order to craft items (Invisibility is still beyond you, but you can craft scrolls?), or whether being able to craft X is in any way related to the ability to craft Y.

Quertus (my signature academia mage, for whom this account is named) explicitly studies the strange sets of similarities between the underlying laws of magic on various worlds. Among other things that he studies.


One of the things I've tried to do is craft the setting to explain the mechanics. So in one way, yes. But in another, no. At most, the two are consistent. But it was never a very good 4e setting--due to the constraints I'd already houseruled the heck out of the system entirely. So if I had to say, it's much more 5e than 4e.

And the idea of "levels" and "multiclassing" and all that is an entirely meta thing. PC classes are convenient bundles for game purposes, not reified things. 90+% of the priests you meet aren't clerics. Some people can cast 5th level spells...without being able to cast anything else. Crafting magic items is non-trivial--that was one of the things that was lost and changed in the Cataclysm and the rebirth of magic. Lots of people break "the rules" all the time. Because the rules are the UI for the game. Nothing more, nothing less. They're a translation layer to help us, in our reality, play a game in that reality. To translate actions here to actions there and vice versa. The real physics are much different. The two are consistent with each other (most of the time anyway), but the rules do not dictate. The underlying physics of the setting do. When the two are in conflict, the game gives way.



That doesn't sound like a closed setting to me.

So, if you showed up in your setting, being from outside, you'd be hounded by angels? And you'd still want to go there?


I'd assume I was born there, merely with my own knowledge. There's precedent for that--the barrier is not impermeable. But one major barrier to actual travel is that, unlike most other settings, there is no planar connection between Dreams of Hope (the planet is Quartus, the whole setting is Dreams of Hope) and any other realm. The planes stop cold at the barrier. Outside is the Far Realms...except I treat it differently. It's a self-aware, dreaming conceptual space. No spell or ship will help you there, you shape "reality" by your self-will but can be unshaped by the will of others. And physical form does not exist as such. Only thoughts. The "dreams" part comes because my multiverse theory is that all the realms, everywhere, are but dreams. Dreams of entities native to that Dreaming Dark, who themselves are dreams of the Dark itself. So the "canon" multiverse exists somewhere out there, the work of one or more Dreamers. But there are also things out there that want to awaken all the dreams. One of them is the Awakener, a Borg-like memetic virus that infects worlds and converts them into more of it, before reducing them to nothingness.



Well, no. Just like an action can succeed or fail based on mechanics, the needs of the story, pacing, or any number of other reasons, the why of a world's stability (or lack thereof) need not be based on "because the GM says so".

For example, Placia is inordinately stable (sort of) because the mechanics of the world enforce that stability. Placia is actually caught in a time loop, repeating its circular history forever. The details may change, but the general course of history is inexorable. Quertus has gently poked at it - enough to decide that he doesn't care to even attempt to see if it can be changed, and certainly doesn't care to gain the attention of any hypothetical being(s) capable of having set such a thing in motion. Adventurers can make amazing changes, and, from their perspective, everything will appear to run on mechanics and be as mutable as one would expect given those mechanics, but they cannot truly derail the "million year plan" of the world, any more than cavemen could have prevented the Ice Age, or the formation of the asteroid belt.

Now, Placia could be caught in a time loop "because I say so", or because of actions that some of my players took, or because the plot demands it, or... etc etc. But Placia is stable (in the grand scheme) because the mechanics say so.

Placia is always 2e because I say so (not that I expect the mechanics to ever disagree). Magic on Placia behaves in very stable ways because the mechanics say so. Multiclassing / Racial level limits are so "forgiving" / open / whatever because of a mix of "because I say so" and because the races are fundamentally / mechanically / "physics"-ly / psychologically different from default. The "current" timeline is the way it is largely because of actions that the PCs have taken.

All of these things have different root causes I can point to; they aren't all simply "because I say so".


But they are because you said so. Those underlying mechanics are your choice. It's the exact same problem I have with people who disclaim DM fiat or who espouse My Guy Syndrome--they're using rules as a paper shield. And paper (sorry Mythbusters) doesn't do all that well as a defense mechanism. You can't shift responsibility for the choices you made or the consequences of those choices.

And in this case, Dreams of Hope is stable because the Great Mechanism maintains stability. That is its Prime Directive, and as the remains of the Dreamer who created the universe, it has a lot of pull. Is it perfectly stable? No. That would be boring. And choice is encoded in the GM as well. Adventurers (or other people) can change things. But certain things are not (easily) subject to change. One of those is the basic structure of the world--you'll never destroy the barrier. Because the barrier is part of the feedback loop that maintains the universe--destroying it would involve destroying the GM, and that would destroy the universe itself. It's a closed loop.

There is a mechanism to change the Directives (more precisely, to write new ones in). An artifact which serves as a root console. Like everything in Dreams of Hope, it comes with a price[1], however. Making a Wish (capital letter there--the spell is a much-watered down version) costs the Wisher his or her existence. Past, present, and future. That person never existed; everything he had done was done by someone else. He is forgotten--erased from memory and from history. There have been 4 Wishes so far--the first brought wizardry, the second spirit magic (ie druidism), the third divine magic, and the fourth? Too early to tell. But some form of "technological" magic (artificers, not technology).



Well, fair enough. Getting to Explore your setting could certainly be a big draw. I can probably appreciate that better than most. I could Explore Everday, but Placia... too much of what I would care about is known (at least, to me). (to use my classic example, if there's floating rocks, I already know why they are floating, and wouldn't be inspired to invent something new based on some cool new reveal.) Also, most of it isn't what I would consider "pretty" - I would not, personally, enjoy the aesthetics of most of Placia (not the flora/fauna, not the geography, not the architecture, not the clothing styles, not even most of the art).


I know...the surface. But every time I play in it, I discover new things. Things I didn't design, yet that are there by necessity. I've only planned the highest levels of generality--the rest emerges. And beauty is besides the point--it's newness. The pieces clicking into place. As an example, I originally had decided that humans were the descendants of the primordial servants of Change/Chaos (hence their flexibility), and thus that goblins were mutated humans. And I had a (memed) racist (of the 40k Imperium style) character in a party, so I planted (on the fly, as a throw-away joke) an in-universe document that claimed that the order was the reverse--that goblins were the ancestors of humanity, and that humanity was artificial. Was it intended to be canon? Not really. I do a lot of those questionably-valid documents. This one was mainly intended to poke that character. But then I realized that it explained so darn much. And the consequences of the nature of goblinoids had a ripple effect that answered lots of unsettled elements. So it became canon. And that isn't the only time--more often than not, I've thrown away my designs in favor of a chance thing the players assumed it was. Because it fit much better than what I had designed. That kind of emergent coherence is, to me, beauty. Even if the subject is dark and nasty.



I'm not sure if "most adventurers never become successful", "most adventurers cannot learn their way past 5th level", and "it's 5e - levels don't matter (you'll still get crushed by orcs)" really make the "Dawn of Hope" setting sound terribly appealing to the average adventurer. A draw for playing there as a PC maybe, but not for living there as an adventurer.

If my soul knew that it wanted to be an adventurer, and got to pick which world to incarnate into, that description certainly sounds like a turn-off to me.


Adventurers (those that reach 1st-level, which is a precondition here) are already successful. There are lots of "adventurers" who are really bandits. They're less successful. And adventuring has gotten a lot safer (on average)--45 years ago the average lifespan of an adventurer was 1-2 missions. Now, if you can get accepted by a Registered Company (and the Golden Banner[2] will accept nearly everyone) you've got a pretty good chance of surviving a "big" mission and retiring wealthy. Hard to beat a few hundred gold for a few days' work. And even "low level" adventurers often get very wealthy (by local standards).

It's not a high-power setting. On purpose. Those...struggle with consistency I've found, unless locked down so tight there's no room for adventure.

[1] All that lives must die. No power without cost. Death is the cost of ultimate power; sacrifice brings power. These are the three Laws from the beginning. Tradeoffs make a major part of the underpinnings of the setting.
[2] The Walmart of Registered Companies. They're everywhere, they're cheap to hire, and they'll hire anyone. And the quality's about the same as well.

Luccan
2020-11-28, 02:16 AM
Probably Eberron for the higher standard of living. A second war is something to worry about though. Most settings aren't really desirable to live in, even ignoring the world shattering events every few years in most places you'd probably be a peasant at best.

Wizard_Lizard
2020-11-28, 06:11 AM
eberron assuming my home brew world probably is off the table.

noob
2020-11-28, 07:03 AM
Is dual classing between 2e wizard and 3.5 wizard within 4e essentials a legitimate long term choice?
(according to 4e essential rules it is but I am wondering if it is within the spirit of the thread)

Clistenes
2020-11-28, 09:01 AM
I have no such issues with the story - had it attacked the "good guys" unfairly, and then held up, say, Drow society as the paragon of perfection, then I would have had a problem with it.

Speaking of Dragons (and this is for anyone)... Eberron (vs?) Council of Wyrms? What do dragons do in this/these settings?

For Eberron in particular, has a Dragon ever sought godhood?

Technically speaking, all Eberronian dragons aspire to godhood. Their religion teaches that only dragons can worship the "true" gods, and that the Sovereigns are all dragons who were rewarded with "lesser" godhood as reward for enbodying an archetype perfectly enough...

So the purpose of draconic religion is to become a certain draconic archetype, so they will be selected as a new Sovereign...


Is dual classing between 2e wizard and 3.5 wizard within 4e essentials a legitimate long term choice?
(according to 4e essential rules it is but I am wondering if it is within the spirit of the thread)

Probably too much...

Quertus
2020-11-28, 09:26 AM
So, for brevity, a few quick takeaways:

For Game Physics, if my Wizard can memorize exactly 4 1st level spells, 3 2nd level spells, and 2 3rd level spells, that is a measurable bit of physics. That your world has very kludged code with lots of exceptions on how to determine those numbers doesn't change that... unless it's a "mother may I" setting, where your players pester you to change that to only being able to cast 5th level spells, and only Animate Dead at that. But, other that whether physics operate physics-first or "mother may I"-first (and me agreeing that of course all priests aren't Clerics), the rest of this conversation is likely outside the scope of this thread.

For Stability, what do you mean that the Great Mechanism's "prime directive" is to promote Stability? Define what stability it promotes. For example, if the world transitioned along straight / lgbt lines, or monogamy vs polygamy, racism vs tolerance, or to cannibalism or vegetarianism, would the Great Mechanism care? If humanity and/or goblinkind evolved wings, or merged back into a single species, would it care? If separationists decided to split off a sizable chunk of a continent and form New Atlantis (or whatever they in-character decided to call their new island continent), would it care? If someone tried to create a new form of ("technology"-based) magic, would it care? If someone foresaw viral Borg doom, and tried to disconnect the world from the realm of Dream, would it care? If someone tried to change demons (all, or a subset thereof) to a diet of Hatred, would it care? If someone tried to create a new species of dragon, would it care? If someone tried to exterminate all Rust Monsters, or all Dinosaurs, to make a species Extinct, would it care? If someone tried to craft a "weave" atop all magic, to provide a new interface to magic, would it care? And how does the Great Mechanism promote whatever branch(es) of stability it cares about?

For Exploration,
a) Aesthetics matter to me, particularly if I'm living there. I'm a bit of a sensate. :smallwink: That's all I meant about Aesthetics, as one reason why I wouldn't enjoy living on and Exploring Placia.
b) Do you really believe that you would be able to Explore the underpinnings of your reality by living there anywhere near as effectively as by GMing?
c) I haven't found that my underpinnings really change by running others in the world. Granted, that's probably in part because I was building the world for well over a decade before I ran anyone in it.

For being Born There With Knowledge
a) oh, that's exactly the mechanic some of my "gods" use to instantiate into and Explore a world, so not closed to them at all.
b) you said that there's precedent - in your world? In D&D?
c) If it's not being done by some godlike being who can fake being a clueless baby (possibly by actually being a clueless baby, with extra knowledge "to the side", like multiple computer threads), how, exactly, does this work?

For Borg Virus, why? What is its purpose? What (if any) defenses does it have?


eberron assuming my home brew world probably is off the table.

Why (on both counts)?


Is dual classing between 2e wizard and 3.5 wizard within 4e essentials a legitimate long term choice?
(according to 4e essential rules it is but I am wondering if it is within the spirit of the thread)

... what? 4e rules said "feel free to run a 2e Wizard"? Am I hearing that right?

noob
2020-11-28, 10:01 AM
So, for brevity, a few quick takeaways:

For Game Physics, if my Wizard can memorize exactly 4 1st level spells, 3 2nd level spells, and 2 3rd level spells, that is a measurable bit of physics. That your world has very kludged code with lots of exceptions on how to determine those numbers doesn't change that... unless it's a "mother may I" setting, where your players pester you to change that to only being able to cast 5th level spells, and only Animate Dead at that. But, other that whether physics operate physics-first or "mother may I"-first (and me agreeing that of course all priests aren't Clerics), the rest of this conversation is likely outside the scope of this thread.

For Stability, what do you mean that the Great Mechanism's "prime directive" is to promote Stability? Define what stability it promotes. For example, if the world transitioned along straight / lgbt lines, or monogamy vs polygamy, racism vs tolerance, or to cannibalism or vegetarianism, would the Great Mechanism care? If humanity and/or goblinkind evolved wings, or merged back into a single species, would it care? If separationists decided to split off a sizable chunk of a continent and form New Atlantis (or whatever they in-character decided to call their new island continent), would it care? If someone tried to create a new form of ("technology"-based) magic, would it care? If someone foresaw viral Borg doom, and tried to disconnect the world from the realm of Dream, would it care? If someone tried to change demons (all, or a subset thereof) to a diet of Hatred, would it care? If someone tried to create a new species of dragon, would it care? If someone tried to exterminate all Rust Monsters, or all Dinosaurs, to make a species Extinct, would it care? If someone tried to craft a "weave" atop all magic, to provide a new interface to magic, would it care? And how does the Great Mechanism promote whatever branch(es) of stability it cares about?

For Exploration,
a) Aesthetics matter to me, particularly if I'm living there. I'm a bit of a sensate. :smallwink: That's all I meant about Aesthetics, as one reason why I wouldn't enjoy living on and Exploring Placia.
b) Do you really believe that you would be able to Explore the underpinnings of your reality by living there anywhere near as effectively as by GMing?
c) I haven't found that my underpinnings really change by running others in the world. Granted, that's probably in part because I was building the world for well over a decade before I ran anyone in it.

For being Born There With Knowledge
a) oh, that's exactly the mechanic some of my "gods" use to instantiate into and Explore a world, so not closed to them at all.
b) you said that there's precedent - in your world? In D&D?
c) If it's not being done by some godlike being who can fake being a clueless baby (possibly by actually being a clueless baby, with extra knowledge "to the side", like multiple computer threads), how, exactly, does this work?

For Borg Virus, why? What is its purpose? What (if any) defenses does it have?



Why (on both counts)?



... what? 4e rules said "feel free to run a 2e Wizard"? Am I hearing that right?
A small paragraph in 4e essentials errata told you could use older dnd content or a similar phrasing(they probably meant older 4e content but they wrote it wrong and did not specify it had to be 4e content)

PhoenixPhyre
2020-11-28, 11:39 AM
For Stability, what do you mean that the Great Mechanism's "prime directive" is to promote Stability? #1Define what stability it promotes. For example, if the world transitioned along #2straight / lgbt lines, or monogamy vs polygamy, racism vs tolerance, or to cannibalism or vegetarianism, would the Great Mechanism care? If #3humanity and/or goblinkind evolved wings, or merged back into a single species, would it care? #4If separationists decided to split off a sizable chunk of a continent and form New Atlantis (or whatever they in-character decided to call their new island continent), would it care? #5If someone tried to create a new form of ("technology"-based) magic, would it care? #6If someone foresaw viral Borg doom, and tried to disconnect the world from the realm of Dream, would it care? #7If someone tried to change demons (all, or a subset thereof) to a diet of Hatred, would it care?#8 If someone tried to create a new species of dragon, would it care? If someone tried to exterminate all Rust Monsters, or all Dinosaurs, to make a species Extinct, would it care? #9If someone tried to craft a "weave" atop all magic, to provide a new interface to magic, would it care? #10And how does the Great Mechanism promote whatever branch(es) of stability it cares about?

#11For Exploration,
a) Aesthetics matter to me, particularly if I'm living there. I'm a bit of a sensate. :smallwink: That's all I meant about Aesthetics, as one reason why I wouldn't enjoy living on and Exploring Placia.
b) Do you really believe that you would be able to Explore the underpinnings of your reality by living there anywhere near as effectively as by GMing?
c) I haven't found that my underpinnings really change by running others in the world. Granted, that's probably in part because I was building the world for well over a decade before I ran anyone in it.

#12For being Born There With Knowledge
a) oh, that's exactly the mechanic some of my "gods" use to instantiate into and Explore a world, so not closed to them at all.
b) you said that there's precedent - in your world? In D&D?
c) If it's not being done by some godlike being who can fake being a clueless baby (possibly by actually being a clueless baby, with extra knowledge "to the side", like multiple computer threads), how, exactly, does this work?

#13For Borg Virus, why? What is its purpose? What (if any) defenses does it have?

1. The exact parameters are unknown, it's an adaptive system. But what is known is that it is designed to promote the continued existence of mortals, and some measure of them flourishing. It's known that there's a minimum "power budget" to keep the universe functional, and all anima, all power originates in mortal souls. So the big triggers are things that would cull large numbers of mortals. Another significant trigger is letting demons run free without the chains of summoning. Other Powers (whether gods, ascendants, or even devils and demons) care more about the exact shape that life takes, and would interfere a whole lot sooner than the Mechanism itself.
2. Meh.
3. As long as no large numbers (as in percentage points of the whole population) died doing so, meh.
4. Been done. Twice, actually. In the beginning there were only 3 continents. Now there are 5. Although the GM has adapted and one of the directives it gave to the new gods was "let's not have that sort of thing happen again". So if you can do it without killing many people, you can likely get away with it. Mostly. Good luck though, the tools required for those last two (even when wielded by creatures much stronger than people, in situations that allowed much stronger powers than currently exist) are sentient, hidden, and currently inoperable.
5. Creating a totally new form of magic requires a Wish. Which means waiting for the Forge to recharge. Which last time took ~4k years.
6. That's not a meaningful statement. You can't do that, because the Dreaming Dark is everything that can even potentially exist. That's like saying "let's destroy spacetime itself in this region". But yes, any attempt to enact a mad and impossible plan like that would draw the GM's attention. The Crystal Shell is the barrier that keeps the Awakener out (at least its main "body", although minor bits leak through and are hunted by angels).
7. Impossible, again by definition. A demon that does not consume souls would be consumed by the jotnar, the parasite that makes them a demon. To be a demon is to host a jotnar, an entity (although that's a stretch) of pure entropy. You have to pay the jotnar, and the currency it demands is souls. Captured ones or your own, it doesn't care.
8. Meh, again with the caveat of "don't cause too many deaths doing so."
9. There you'd have to worry about the god of magic more than the GM--it's his divine role to oversee exactly how magic works. And he's no Mystra--he's totally willing to tweak it to stop obnoxious people like that. Because his primary mandate is "don't let people blow up the world again using magic." So you'd find yourself completely unable to cast anything. Or no matter what you did, only bunnies would come out. He'd probably start by sending his clerics to tell you to knock it off. But you wouldn't listen. So eventually, he'd escalate to just turning off your access to power. That's part of what I meant about super powerful, but super limited. If you challenge a core part of their domain, they don't have limits. No stat blocks, just "they win." Outside of that, they're highly limited in what actions they can take directly.
10. It's the thing that controls how the fabric of reality reacts. The angels are its minions, and the ones it uses when only minor interventions are required. Beyond that are the demigods and ascendants who would know that you're trying to mess things up and act. Beyond that are the real defenses. A DC INFINITY+1 Gate, pulling you to a micron above the Oblivion Gate (whose touch is non-existence, and who always hungers). Cutting you (and the surrounding terrain) off from the rest of reality in a bubble universe. Etc. It's the OS/hardware of the universe. Kill -9 is an option if it really needs to.

11. a) My opening statement was "I'd rather go to none of them, because no internet and modern tech." I'm a wimp. But there is beauty in Dreams of Hope. And non-beauty--it's no utopia.
b) I'd be able to explore the details. The things that I can't plan and won't come up in game. The exact smells of the bread being baked. The shape of the leaves. The quality of the light from the two moons. Things like that. Things you can't put into words.
c) We differ there. I write because I have players--that's what gives me inspiration to explore areas. And watching it come alive in the hands of players is a source of joy.

12. It's not that easy. Your "gods" require a connection, and are part of a different Dream. To do so would require being a Dreamer yourself, which is another class of being entirely. The kind that make minor beings such as Ao look insignificant, the kind that can alter, create, or destroy universes with an idle thought and none can gainsay them except the Dreamer who made those universes.

The one precedent (in universe) was a boy who was pierced and "killed" by a crystallized shard of a Dreamer, destroyed in battle against the Awakener. He arose with fragments of those memories, believing himself to be that entity, incarnated to warn the world about the Awakener and to rally the forces of the world against it. In the end, his "wife" (quotes because there are no words to really describe things), his companion Dreamer, came for that fragment as he battled the Awakener at the edge of the Shell and he rejoined her. And it was only a tiny fragment--anything larger would be destroyed on entry.

So you'd never get a whole self through. I was speaking as if those normal limits were released but for me and I, the ur-Dreamer, could walk there in the flesh. Which isn't normally possible.

13. It believes (if that phrase even makes sense here) that it is the Dark's immune system and that all the Dreams are aberrations that must be removed so that the Dark can be peaceful/whole. Once everything is part of it, then it will end itself, leaving nothing. And it's actually pretty serious about that. And as far as defenses, it's a Dreamer. One who has assimilated countless Dreams already. Remember, these are entities who can only be opposed by other Dreamers. And you ain't one of them. The one particular Dream (containing Quartus) was constructed, in part, to ward out the Awakener. Part of that is that to enter is to be forced into physical form, where it is vulnerable. Only the most minor elements can leak through, and most of those are destroyed on entry by the angelic legions. Not without cost (nothing without cost). Occasionally tiny fragments leak to the surface, where they infect people and things until cleansed (whether by mortals or by angels, although mortals prefer if the angels don't do it, because collateral damage isn't one of their concerns). Heck, even demons will pause in their rampages to obliterate Awakener shards that they sense. Nothing like a common threat to put the usual squabbles on hold.

Quertus
2020-11-28, 12:26 PM
A small paragraph in 4e essentials errata told you could use older dnd content or a similar phrasing(they probably meant older 4e content but they wrote it wrong and did not specify it had to be 4e content)

Oh, that's hilarious! Well, I guess Quertus would be willing to visit RAW 4e worlds, after all. :smallamused:

(not that it matters to Quertus, but how would a RAW 2e or 3e character stand up in a(n otherwise) 4e world?)

Telok
2020-11-28, 08:56 PM
Oh, that's hilarious! Well, I guess Quertus would be willing to visit RAW 4e worlds, after all. :smallamused:

(not that it matters to Quertus, but how would a RAW 2e or 3e character stand up in a(n otherwise) 4e world?)

Weirdly.

Assume that you translate saves bonus/malus and ac/to-hit in a reasonable frame. Levels can actually go 1:1 pretty easily. The previous edition characters will have real magic items & artifacts, actual useful immunities to stuff, armies & followers, save against pretty much everything except on a 1 at higher levels, stuff like that.

noob
2020-11-29, 04:16 AM
I believe 4e characters had a lot of brute force at level 1 relatively to 3.5 and 2e characters.
If you can survive the first few levels(for example with gratuitous pet spam) you then stand out relatively to 4e characters.

Quertus
2020-11-29, 08:40 PM
Weirdly.

Assume that you translate saves bonus/malus and ac/to-hit in a reasonable frame. Levels can actually go 1:1 pretty easily. The previous edition characters will have real magic items & artifacts, actual useful immunities to stuff, armies & followers, save against pretty much everything except on a 1 at higher levels, stuff like that.


I believe 4e characters had a lot of brute force at level 1 relatively to 3.5 and 2e characters.
If you can survive the first few levels(for example with gratuitous pet spam) you then stand out relatively to 4e characters.

So Quertus, as an already epic Wizard, should have no problems?

noob
2020-11-30, 06:55 AM
So Quertus, as an already epic Wizard, should have no problems?

Your basic abilities outmatch vastly 4e characters at that point both in terms of mobility and range.
Just by teleporting around and throwing damage spells from far(which is likely to be a bad strategy in 3.5e) you could win a lot of fights without ever thinking.
But once you factor in the classical boosts like greater invisibility the match becomes exceedingly hard for the 4e characters.
And all that was assuming you were behaving like a braindead evoker but if you are smarter than that the gap increases ridiculously.

Quertus
2020-11-30, 08:40 AM
Your basic abilities outmatch vastly 4e characters at that point both in terms of mobility and range.
Just by teleporting around and throwing damage spells from far(which is likely to be a bad strategy in 3.5e) you could win a lot of fights without ever thinking.
But once you factor in the classical boosts like greater invisibility the match becomes exceedingly hard for the 4e characters.
And all that was assuming you were behaving like a braindead evoker but if you are smarter than that the gap increases ridiculously.

My tactically-inept academia mage has no idea what you're talking about :smallredface:

I guess I'll have to update Quertus' "preferences".

noob
2020-11-30, 12:14 PM
My tactically-inept academia mage has no idea what you're talking about :smallredface:

I guess I'll have to update Quertus' "preferences".

I guess "flee with teleport and rain fire on the opponents" is too complicated tactics.

Alcore
2020-11-30, 05:22 PM
I never truly answered in my first post...


Forgotten Realms, Barovia provence

5e is the edition, Barovia is locked into demiplane and is a stable realm ruled by an evil vampire...

Level 1 human fighter with tier one vampirism from the Grim Hollow setting. Can walk in daylight, if there was any, and immortal. Get a job as a guard and spend a decade or two in a town before moving onto the next. Being 99% human if i juggle the three towns there would be a 40 year lapse before i entered a city again.

Much like Strahd i might have trouble finding people with souls to feed from but only once every 7 days doesn't sound too bad.

Rule-Of-Three
2020-11-30, 10:23 PM
It feels like a cop-out, but I'd choose Monte Cook's 2nd ed. version of Sigil every day. No cataclysmic dragonic wars (Krynn), nuclear holocausts (Mystara), dying worlds (Dark Sun), or whatever catastrophe of the day (Toril). Aberynis (Birthright) is worth consideration, and in fact felt closer to european medieval states than Oerth. Spelljammer....I wanted to like it, as I love swashbuckling. But no. Nobody would actually choose a realm in the Demiplane of Dread.

Maybe Eberron too. Breland and Aundaire seemed like there were some degrees of stability and civil rights there, and the Eldeen Reach might be remote enough to escape the machinations of men most of the time. The Mror Holds too are probably safe enough.

Nothing tops Sigil though. I'm a NPC expert whose strength is in what I know and how I apply it. Anywhere other than Sigil, dudes like me die to everything. In Sigil, I can be a player on the Great Wheel equal to demon lords and powers.

Proverbially hiding behind the Lady of Pain's skirt, of course.

Eldan
2020-12-01, 05:53 AM
It feels like a cop-out, but I'd choose Monte Cook's 2nd ed. version of Sigil every day. No cataclysmic dragonic wars (Krynn), nuclear holocausts (Mystara), dying worlds (Dark Sun), or whatever catastrophe of the day (Toril).

Nothing tops Sigil though. I'm a NPC expert whose strength is in what I know and how I apply it. Anywhere other than Sigil, dudes like me die to everything. In Sigil, I can be a player on the Great Wheel equal to demon lords and powers.

Proverbially hiding behind the Lady of Pain's skirt, of course.

Um, Faction War? Die, Vecna, Die? Both bad decisions, but canon, and both quite catastrophic for the average Sigilite.

Quertus
2020-12-01, 06:44 AM
It feels like a cop-out, but I'd choose Monte Cook's 2nd ed. version of Sigil every day.

Nothing tops Sigil though. I'm a NPC expert whose strength is in what I know and how I apply it. Anywhere other than Sigil, dudes like me die to everything. In Sigil, I can be a player on the Great Wheel equal to demon lords and powers.

Proverbially hiding behind the Lady of Pain's skirt, of course.


Um, Faction War? Die, Vecna, Die? Both bad decisions, but canon, and both quite catastrophic for the average Sigilite.

Also, have you noticed that the laws there aren't exactly conducive to anyone's continued existence? Something like (AFB), "you attacked and killed that demon? Understandable, given your unfamiliarity with the rules here. However, you mispronounced my name. Sentence is execution."

Eldan
2020-12-01, 07:07 AM
Ugh, yeah, that. I mean, most D&D settings don't even go into how the law works (one assumes either magistrates or just nobles more or less judging at whim), but Sigil's entire legal system is horrifying. The Police, Tax System and Judicary are all entirely made up of members of the relevant faction, and thus incredibly partisan, with weird philosophies. The police are some kind of benevolent fascists, the prison system is run by a death cult, the judges are weird law-scientists who are looking to break their own codes and the tax system is run by... I don't even know what. Anarcho-capitalists? That is if you aren't unlucky and the courts are full that day, so you are pushed off to one of the alternate courts which are run by demons, for their entertainment.

Democratus
2020-12-01, 01:04 PM
Middle Earth, I think.

Any time that was not a huge war - which is the majority of the time in that world.

Eladrinblade
2020-12-02, 12:55 PM
Forgotten realms, as a moon elf in evermeet, preferably the quiet west coast.

Eberron is too similar to the modern world, which is just absolute garbage imo.

noob
2020-12-02, 02:17 PM
Forgotten realms, as a moon elf in evermeet, preferably the quiet west coast.

Eberron is too similar to the modern world, which is just absolute garbage imo.

Eberron is one of the settings that have low amounts of world ending calamities.
In FR there is "so many invisible epic wizards you can not throw a fireball without hitting one" and world ending calamities are the average Tuesday.
Also if you are atheist(you consider the FR gods are just powerful creatures and that they do not deserve your worship) then after your death you are tortured in a wall until you stop existing and all the FR gods made competitions to be more awful than each other.
People who complains about the modern world are people who did not have to cultivate their own food with plants that have 100 times less(in fact probably even less) yield than modern plants, lose half of their teeth, get most of what they gained taxed by a noble and fall ill and become forever exhausted by the sequelae of their disease.(all that ignoring how toiling hard all day long is very bad for your body and shortens your lifespan and an hundred other problems)
The past is a foreign country where just living was hard in itself: the reason why not having jobs is more and more common in the modern times is that people who lacks a job no longer dies of hunger or cold.

Saint-Just
2020-12-02, 03:54 PM
People who complains about the modern world are people who did not have to cultivate their own food with plants that have 100 times less(in fact probably even less) wield than modern plants, lose half of their teeth, get most of what they gained taxed by a noble and fall ill and become forever exhausted by the sequels of their disease.(all that ignoring how toiling hard all day long is very bad for your body and shortens your lifespan and an hundred other problems)
The past is a foreign country where just living was hard in itself: the reason why not having jobs is more and more common in the modern times is that people who lacks a job no longer dies of hunger or cold.

Don't try sound so dramatic, it's merely 16 times lower than modern productivity:smalltongue: Difference in vegetable yields is even lower. Turnips, anyone?

(Ok, if you cleave close to history it's pretty bad, except that even for FR there is somewhat contradictory information for how close it conforms to historical mores. Also if you are a PC and not a monk you start with a common laborer's wage for two years in equipment and pocket money, higher stats, more skills and class abilities, so you are not going to be in that place in social order. Still can be bad unless magic changes a lot of everyday things. And no contention on gods).

Also it's yield and sequelae. Sorry, but I cannot help myself

Clistenes
2020-12-02, 08:31 PM
Some worlds may be typical medieval crap, others may be way better and closer to the modern world...

For all we know, Gnomes could have discovered modern farming techniques 1,000 years ago, and Elves could have developed vaccines and antibiotics 10,000 years ago. Plus Dwarves and Svirniflim could be mining enough metals and minerals that their price is even lower than in the modern world...

We just don't know; it depends on every setting...

Luccan
2020-12-03, 01:37 AM
Eberron is one of the settings that have low amounts of world ending calamities.


I mean, the only thing holding Eberron back from another continent-spanning war atm is that everyone still remembers an entire kingdom blew up to end the last one. And no one is quite sure why. Give it a decade or two and they could easily be trying to all kill each other again. Or maybe the Lord of Blades or whatever he's called gathers enough Warforged and begins his own crusade with a robot army. Or the alien intelligence the Kalashtar are fighting finally start gaining ground. Etc.

I agree it seems generally nicer, it's definitely my pick, but its threats are very real and seem much more... present in everyone's life. It seems in FR as long as you're far enough from a big city you're basically fine (unless the next child of destiny happens to grow up there). Occasionally some goblins might slaughter your cows, but I'm not sure any D&D setting is truly safe from random low-level adventuring tropes hitting unsuspecting settlements.

Xervous
2020-12-03, 08:06 AM
I mean, the only thing holding Eberron back

Oh, what’s that? Horoscope says to torch a country? There’s the umptydozen dragons milling about Argonessen eating rocks and staring at the sky until the GM needs an arbitrary number of epic level flying lizard wizards. My single biggest gripe right there, how Eberron wastes dragons at the conceptual level.

Quertus
2020-12-04, 08:38 PM
So, have we established that, outside a) homebrew, or b) very specific time and place requests, D&D worlds are not terribly conducive to the type of life / stability that we would want?

GrayDeath
2020-12-05, 09:02 AM
Oh, what’s that? Horoscope says to torch a country? There’s the umptydozen dragons milling about Argonessen eating rocks and staring at the sky until the GM needs an arbitrary number of epic level flying lizard wizards. My single biggest gripe right there, how Eberron wastes dragons at the conceptual level.

Dragon lounging in Argonessen looks your way.

Oh, ehm, sorry, was that your rock little halfling?
I only ate it because I ran out of Breland Shortbread....you have some? marbvelous!


So, have we established that, outside a) homebrew, or b) very specific time and place requests, D&D worlds are not terribly conducive to the type of life / stability that we would want?

Again, unless one is quite a bit more powerful and less mortallity-challenged, sadly agreed.

Eladrinblade
2020-12-06, 02:10 PM
So, have we established that, outside a) homebrew, or b) very specific time and place requests, D&D worlds are not terribly conducive to the type of life / stability that we would want?

Who is "we"? Modern life is pointless drudgery in a world with a civilization I am 100% not a fan of. In a D&D world you live in a world with magic and get an almost guaranteed afterlife.

Tanarii
2020-12-06, 02:45 PM
Depends on the edition.

BECMI or AD&D 1e, none of them. Death is a high probability result of being 1st level, without some serious DM fudging or house rules.

2e, Council of Wyrms dragon, for exactly the same reason.

3e through 5e, probably an adapted Mystara in the Known World area. I know the setting very well, and all that knowledge would come in handy. And survival rates are pretty high, close to 100% using the default rules for 4e/5e.

Quertus
2020-12-06, 07:29 PM
2e, Council of Wyrms dragon, .

Wait, Council of Wyrms is 2e?

OK… 2e had a *lot* of dragons - does that setting handle them all? If a dragon flew in from outside, or a new species was created, how would they react?

And what were "starting" characters expected to look like in that setting?

Related question: how long until 3e hits? 4e? Forgotten Realms, same question.

sktarq
2020-12-06, 09:45 PM
Well for the PC side of things they basically started you as a bronze, silver, or gold (a half dragon of gnome, dwarf, or elf types) though splats may have expanded that later.

And I think they basically just kept to the main ten metallic/chromatic types with the gems (amethyst, crystal, emerald, topaz, sapphire), semi-precious gem (the pearl, amber, jaquinth), steel, mercury, cloud, steam, brown, shadow, deep, etc etc etc all being politely ignored...but again I only ever played with the original boxed set.

And being a dragon in all that wouldn't be all that bad TBH. Especially depending on your relationship with your parents. The having to adventure to gain a hoard in order to age up has its risks but then again I always figured just taxing a mine/development area may be better long term.

Alcore
2020-12-07, 12:19 AM
Who is "we"? Modern life is pointless drudgery in a world with a civilization I am 100% not a fan of. In a D&D world you live in a world with magic and get an almost guaranteed afterlife.

Goods points until the last. Escaping modern society is the dream :smallbiggrin:

Gods use you as a rescource in most settings. You are food. Your long afterlife is dependent on being unappetizing... hence why i chose an undead creature. In a place that true death means rebirth in that tiny space. Equally dreary :smallannoyed:

Quertus
2020-12-20, 11:14 AM
Right, so, two other alternative translations: 1st level D&D character, any world, and starting character, any world.

-----

An obvious answer might be 1st level D&D character in *this* world. However, 2e declared this a low-magic world; 3e ignored that. So the results might well be undefined. Further, earning XP by killing things might be frowned upon. And there's probably not a lot of good loot in this world.

No, I think that a 1st level D&D character might actually do best in a Transhumanist setting, where they can "kill" to their heart's content, and the bioengineered threats can be worth plenty of XP.

-----

Any system, in any world?

As tempting as something like Exalted or Scion may sound, I think a "starting" superhero in the modern world would be hard to top - especially if they had an omnipower that could do things like "Cure Disease".

-----

Full list of my votes:

Me
2e Placia
Paradox (Not!Rifts) Not!Earth
Forgotten Realms as presented in The Open Door
Marvel(/DC)

Generic person
Everday
Paradox (Not!Rifts) Not!Earth
Forgotten Realms as presented in The Open Door
Harry Potter

Cross-system
D&D in Eclipse Phase
M&M in real world

Telwar
2020-12-20, 09:38 PM
If anything goes, Star Trek, somewhere in the Federation, for reasons stated upthread. Post-scarcity and getting to do what I want to be productive? Hell yeah sign me up.

If we're limited to fantasy, LotR, sometime on Numenor significantly prior to their going bat-s*** crazy and getting themselves Atlantis-ed.

If we're limited to D&D? It took me a while to figure this out, but Birthright setting, in the nation of Muden in Brechtur. While they have Problems, they're not the "congratulations being run down by a knight or having your land burned in an impending civil war" of Anuire (which one? All of them!), the general impending collapse of civilization in the Khinasi lands, the cold dark savagery of Vosgaard, or the cold Viking-ness of Rjurik lands. Muden is in generally a good spot, and Brechtur in general has a higher tech level than the rest of the setting, with specialization and trade. And, even if I don't get to be a full blooded wizard, magicians can make bank.

A runner-up is Eberron, where I could live in a city and *probably* not worry about being drafted for the Next War for at least another ten years, and by that point I could probably emigrate someplace or get into a House and benefit from their more-or-less extraterritoriality.

Kishigane
2020-12-21, 01:22 AM
Probably either Eberron or Mystara, personally. Former has a higher living standard, and the latter I have a soft spot for ever since first learning of it through the Capcom beat em ups.

Quertus
2020-12-21, 06:45 AM
If anything goes, Star Trek, somewhere in the Federation, for reasons stated upthread. Post-scarcity and getting to do what I want to be productive? Hell yeah sign me up.

Post-scarcity is a myth. Two reasons.

One, humans will simply reproduce until *something* becomes a limiting factor, even if that's "available space" or "so much mass, we've turned the planet into a black hole".

Two, we're living in a post-scarcity society right now: we have no scarcity of air to breathe. But do we care? Not really. We care about the things that *are* scarce, rather than appreciating what we have.

Putting those together, while, yes, *we* may appreciate the Federation, its citizens likely do not.

Democratus
2020-12-21, 09:22 AM
Post-scarcity is a myth. Two reasons.

One, humans will simply reproduce until *something* becomes a limiting factor, even if that's "available space" or "so much mass, we've turned the planet into a black hole".


Population numbers stabilize (and sometimes even decrease) as a civilization becomes more wealthy and can provide more to its citizens.

There are other answers to this as well, such as the birth lottery in Larry Niven's "Known Worlds" series, or the artificial habitats of Ian Bank's "Culture" series.

Saint-Just
2020-12-21, 12:08 PM
Post-scarcity is a myth. Two reasons.

One, humans will simply reproduce until *something* becomes a limiting factor, even if that's "available space" or "so much mass, we've turned the planet into a black hole".

Two, we're living in a post-scarcity society right now: we have no scarcity of air to breathe. But do we care? Not really. We care about the things that *are* scarce, rather than appreciating what we have.

Putting those together, while, yes, *we* may appreciate the Federation, its citizens likely do not.

1. Idea that people will always reproduce ad infinitum is debunked by the population dynamics today. Birthrates are changing despite the fact that in many countries a couple can have seven children and still provide them with more food, better clothing and education that couple with seven children one or two hundreds years before. I wouldn't say that the trend will never reverse but it seems pretty unlikely.

2. People will start caring more about whatever is scarce, and some intangible things like social status will inevitably be scarce as long as people are forced to interact with reality even a little, but there is no reason to suppose that making even a single resource non-scarce would do nothing to increase enjoyment of life. Air is a bad example because no society has ever lived with a scarcity of air, but there are societies who have lived with abundance of fresh water, and others had it in short supply. I do not think that there would be significant support of idea that their well-being was equal.

Quertus
2020-12-22, 08:00 AM
Huh. Learn something new every day.

"Air as a limited resource" was a reference to "space balls" (or an episode of Dr Who), and intentionally something we *don't* have experience with to emphasize how we don't appreciate that fact. While those who do not struggle for fresh water likely lead more enjoyable/enviable lives than those who do, many stop likely only nominally appreciate their advantages.

Actually, I'm not sure that I can say that for sure. "The world is too much with us, late and soon…" … I think that it might be a horrifying revelation to develop time travel + happiness measurement technology, and actually answer which cultures were the happiest, and which the least happy.

I'm also not sure if being aware of "the now", and moving to "all my problems are solved" would guaranteed increase happiness long term. I think that some would appreciate how much better things were, while others would not.

Crazy dystopian idea: immortal beings in a Star Trek style post scarcity society, whose "Holo decks" are more like the matrix (plus temporary amnesia), designed to give them short, horrible mortal lives, to combat Ennui, and let them appreciate the "real world" that they live in once again. In fact, everything in the matrix is "railroaded" to be horrible, to drive home how much better they have it now.

Eldan
2020-12-22, 08:19 AM
Any culture, any world?

The Culture. If I get bored of Utopia with all my wishes granted in a few thousand years, they'll just make a more interesting world for me.

Saint-Just
2020-12-22, 01:57 PM
Crazy dystopian idea: immortal beings in a Star Trek style post scarcity society, whose "Holo decks" are more like the matrix (plus temporary amnesia), designed to give them short, horrible mortal lives, to combat Ennui, and let them appreciate the "real world" that they live in once again. In fact, everything in the matrix is "railroaded" to be horrible, to drive home how much better they have it now.

Seen it done a dozen of times or more. Usually not with a dystopian bent but as a voluntary or semi-voluntary experience. For the thrill-seeking, or one story have it as a program that civic leaders must undergo so they do not act like someone who never experienced hardship (which would describe 99%+ people in that society), or many other possibilities. Also not hellish-horrible but IRL-horrible, and railroading is not exactly necessary either.

Also some subtle horror may be found in a) screwing exit conditions so the participant is stuck there b) implications that what we consider a "real life" is exactly that kind of scenario (whether for someone else or for you, the reader).

Lucas Yew
2020-12-22, 09:13 PM
Probably Eberron, as it seems the least worst of the lot.

And definitely not FR. The googolth accursed Wall of the Faithless (snort) alone makes me want to massacre all gods there (if possible) out of unending rage...

Quertus
2020-12-22, 11:29 PM
Seen it done a dozen of times or more. Usually not with a dystopian bent but as a voluntary or semi-voluntary experience. For the thrill-seeking, or one story have it as a program that civic leaders must undergo so they do not act like someone who never experienced hardship (which would describe 99%+ people in that society), or many other possibilities. Also not hellish-horrible but IRL-horrible, and railroading is not exactly necessary either.

Also some subtle horror may be found in a) screwing exit conditions so the participant is stuck there b) implications that what we consider a "real life" is exactly that kind of scenario (whether for someone else or for you, the reader).

Well, yes, the "other world" concept has definitely been done; it's explicitly the "dystopian" angle I was looking at.

The "horrible" was "real-world" horrible, but with the railroad of… uh… "angel would never become uncursed". That is, you were guaranteed to never succeed at anything that would make you happy, so that the real world would always look better in comparison (or, at least, that was (would be? was to have been?) the designers' intent).

With amnesia ("temporary memory suppression") on an immortal in a (virtual) mortal life, I'm not sure what the horror would be on changing the exit conditions - even if they went through the life a google times in a row, that's still potentially fewer times than they'll potentially live the life after that in "reruns". Maybe removing the amnesia between passes through the life, so it's "groundhog day", perhaps without a "solution"? Unless it's literally eternity trapped reliving the same bad life, I'm not sure what the horror aspect is or could be.

So, with these criteria, has it been done before? If so, was it any good? If so, what was it?

Saint-Just
2020-12-23, 09:36 AM
The "horrible" was "real-world" horrible, but with the railroad ofÂ… uhÂ… "angel would never become uncursed". That is, you were guaranteed to never succeed at anything that would make you happy, so that the real world would always look better in comparison (or, at least, that was (would be? was to have been?) the designers' intent).

With amnesia ("temporary memory suppression") on an immortal in a (virtual) mortal life, I'm not sure what the horror would be on changing the exit conditions - even if they went through the life a google times in a row, that's still potentially fewer times than they'll potentially live the life after that in "reruns". Maybe removing the amnesia between passes through the life, so it's "groundhog day", perhaps without a "solution"? Unless it's literally eternity trapped reliving the same bad life, I'm not sure what the horror aspect is or could be.

So, with these criteria, has it been done before? If so, was it any good? If so, what was it?

Long story short: the horror with screwing the exit conditions is the idea that you are stuck in the simulated reality forever. At best amnesia never turns off, so you are stuck in a bad life when you could have lived a good one. At worst amnesia turns off, so you are living a bad life while remembering a paradise lost where you could have lived.

Two examples I can remember off-hand is Reality Check by Brin (a very short story, freely accessible), and Permutation City by Egan (somewhat obtuse but an interesting novel). Neither of them have people going to experience bad things to better appreciate good things, but both of them have people stuck in the self-constructed virtual environments with no way out (Permutation City have at least four different examples each different on many ways from the previous). I know a story which fits your criteria almost perfectly but it's not in English, and I'd rather not link to it.

Quertus
2020-12-23, 06:05 PM
I know a story which fits your criteria almost perfectly but it's not in English, and I'd rather not link to it.

That bad? :smalleek:

Still, I'm kinda amazed that anyone had had that idea before.

Meatball
2020-12-24, 09:18 PM
Dragonlance for sure. Just something about that setting/world that always appealed to me.

FabulousFizban
2020-12-25, 03:08 AM
whichever setting has indoor plumbing and penicillin.

Quertus
2020-12-25, 11:09 AM
whichever setting has indoor plumbing and penicillin.

(Certain parts of) Placia meet those criteria.

So, tell me: are you willing to risk "minor Mindrape" (it *only* (”only") works like 3e Diplomacy, making you fanatically loyal to a particular kingdom) should you ever draw attention to yourself (ie, being a high-level mover and shaker) for such creature comforts?

If so, vote Placia. If you get there, you may have to ask around / travel a bit to get what you want, but it's there. As an added bonus, should you tire of Placia, Quertus, my signature academia mage for whom this account is named, could provide you with "return services", to get you back home.

Alternately, Everday could - if you get to choose where you start - hook you up with excellent creature comforts. No penicillin, though - your need to accept an alternate methodology substitution for your penicillin needs.

But if it's random start location, don't pick Everday - you may never find your way to somewhere with such luxuries. Also, no return services - it'd be a one-way trip.

noob
2020-12-25, 11:40 AM
whichever setting has indoor plumbing and penicillin.

If you can pick a specific place within a setting you can pick earth(there is an earth based on the real life one) in the forgotten realms and possibly get those and be a STP erudite or whatever you like.

Tanarii
2020-12-25, 11:50 AM
whichever setting has indoor plumbing and penicillin.
I'll take magical healing over pharmaceuticals. Assuming they cost me about the same.

Speaking of which, I'd want a job that provided clerical healing benefits as part of the package deal.:smallamused:

noob
2020-12-25, 03:42 PM
I'll take magical healing over pharmaceuticals. Assuming they cost me about the same.

Speaking of which, I'd want a job that provided clerical healing benefits as part of the package deal.:smallamused:

I always did think that if I got to recruit people as a high level adventurer I would give free clerical healing among the advantages to the employees.

Scots Dragon
2020-12-29, 07:37 AM
Something like Dragonstar or Starfinder would be the ideal.

A more serious setting option would be Pathfinder, Forgotten Realms, or Mystara based on the ones I like most.

aglondier
2020-12-31, 12:24 PM
Given further consideration...

A (human) Cleric in the Duchy of Karamekos, Mystara setting. It is a fairly placid entry-level setting for d&d, and being a cleric gives you armour and full spellcasting. (Becmi)
A dwarf cleric in the Dalelands of Faerun, for much the same reason. (1st ed)
A halfelf wizard with the Blood of Vorynn in Aerenwe, Birthright setting. Having High Mage Aelies as your mentor/to hide behind makes what could be a rather dangerous setting somewhat safer. And there is plenty of room in the area for another wizard regent. (2nd ed.)
An elven wizard diviner in just about any setting for d&d 3.x. Tooled up for initiative, and with an eye towards buffing and battlefield control. (3rd ed)
A Bone Gnawer Theurge with the Fair Glabro advantage living on the outskirts of any non-capital city in White Wolf's World of Darkness. Fairly low risk, and unlikely to attract the attention of vampires, Silver Fangs, Red Talons, Shadow Lords, Glass Walkers or Get of Fenris...
An Upeo Wa Macho teleporter in Aeon (trinity). Being able to teleport and groin punch badguys from a kilometer away rocks. Having a boss who actually cares about their people is also a Major selling point.
A kryptonian beach bum in DC. Live on Australia's Sunshine Coast, dozing on the beach by day, being part of the Super Family by night. No vigilantism, but S&R and crisis participation in sufficient quantities to avoid cancellation.
A Trill symbiont in Star Trek. All the advantages of ST, and you get to seriously confuse Starfleet captains about your (and their) sexuality.
A force sensitive wookiee engineer in Star Wars. Not a jedi, might later branch into force adept, but mostly just a starship builder/mechanic with a few party tricks.

And for those complaining about feudal settings and being oppressed...you don't have to be a commoner!! Even a first level spellcaster can make a respectable living in most settlements, just from Mending...

Quertus
2020-12-31, 05:32 PM
Given further consideration...

A (human) Cleric in the Duchy of Karamekos, Mystara setting. It is a fairly placid entry-level setting for d&d, and being a cleric gives you armour and full spellcasting. (Becmi)
A dwarf cleric in the Dalelands of Faerun, for much the same reason. (1st ed)
A halfelf wizard with the Blood of Vorynn in Aerenwe, Birthright setting. Having High Mage Aelies as your mentor/to hide behind makes what could be a rather dangerous setting somewhat safer. And there is plenty of room in the area for another wizard regent. (2nd ed.)
An elven wizard diviner in just about any setting for d&d 3.x. Tooled up for initiative, and with an eye towards buffing and battlefield control. (3rd ed)
A Bone Gnawer Theurge with the Fair Glabro advantage living on the outskirts of any non-capital city in White Wolf's World of Darkness. Fairly low risk, and unlikely to attract the attention of vampires, Silver Fangs, Red Talons, Shadow Lords, Glass Walkers or Get of Fenris...
An Upeo Wa Macho teleporter in Aeon (trinity). Being able to teleport and groin punch badguys from a kilometer away rocks. Having a boss who actually cares about their people is also a Major selling point.
A kryptonian beach bum in DC. Live on Australia's Sunshine Coast, dozing on the beach by day, being part of the Super Family by night. No vigilantism, but S&R and crisis participation in sufficient quantities to avoid cancellation.
A Trill symbiont in Star Trek. All the advantages of ST, and you get to seriously confuse Starfleet captains about your (and their) sexuality.
A force sensitive wookiee engineer in Star Wars. Not a jedi, might later branch into force adept, but mostly just a starship builder/mechanic with a few party tricks.

And for those complaining about feudal settings and being oppressed...you don't have to be a commoner!! Even a first level spellcaster can make a respectable living in most settlements, just from Mending...

Dwarves live a reasonably long time; in Faerun, 2e did not. So, at most… what… 40ish years later, will you be happy as a 3e dwarf Cleric? Then, another 100ish years later, as a 4e dwarf Cleric?

Also… how long was the Realms… whatever it was before it went 2e? What was the longest-lived stable empire in Realms history (bonus points for a civilization where one could live a life (or an unlife) of leisure).

Lastly… I was led to believe that a wookiee couldn't be a Jedi. Has that changed?

EDIT: "to avoid cancellation"?

anthon
2020-12-31, 10:35 PM
Dragonlance is probably the best default setting because you know you get things like water, trees, currency, and bars with music, which you may or may not get in other settings. in Dark Sun, no water, in Planescape, no Trees.

But i think what class do you get to be, and what rules set are also super important.

The weave was really gutted in 5e. Meanwhile, magic was everything in Netheril.


Being in Dragon Lance, you'd want to be high enough social class to get into the Knights of Solomnia, or possibly smart enough and tough enough to survive the tests of High Sorcery. in Darksun, you'd want to be a Genius from a rich family and go full Psionic, which would get you out of a lot of trouble with things like the Defilers, the Templars, the Slave industry, and general lack of resources. Most characters in Athas are slaves or peasants cruelty treated though, so most people imported to that reality would die horrible deaths.

Ravenloft is literally rigged against the players. I don't know Eberron well enough but that magical setting with Pyromancers in 5e is pretty cool.

Birthright is so heavily influenced by social status that your place in it becomes irrelevant without it. Many settings are social class based.

in older editions, Wizard spell books cost 50-100 gold pieces per page, and were 2-15 pages per spell. 50 gold weighed a pound, you were were looking at 2-30 pounds of gold per spell, and 6-12+ spells even early in your career. 2500-4000 gold for an apprentice 1st level spell book comes to about 50-80 pounds of gold.

According to Yahoo finance, each ounce is like 1900 dollars, or about 1.5 million dollars for a spell book. Even if you look at it in terms of long swords, a long sword might cost you 400-1000 dollars, and you could get 2-10 of those for 50gp, you thus still need 100+ swords of gold, which is still like 40,000-100,000 dollars.

Point is, being a wizard isn't really a choice the son of the pastry chef makes. You would need some powerful shifts in social class to even have the opportunity. Or friends in high places.

anthon
2020-12-31, 10:42 PM
whichever setting has indoor plumbing and penicillin.

Cleric with Water Domain/Sphere. Then you can conjure clean water and cure disease. I had a couple of friends who made big business as medical clerics in our settings, because the DMG's listed cost of healing by hit point (!!!)

it was strangely not far off from the prices today.

Saint-Just
2021-01-01, 04:01 PM
Dragonlance is probably the best default setting because you know you get things like water, trees, currency, and bars with music, which you may or may not get in other settings. in Dark Sun, no water, in Planescape, no Trees.


The Dark Sun bit is substantially true, if not literally true. But no trees in Planescape? A lot of Upper planes have a lot of trees, Arborea is literally named for the trees. Even in Outlands there are multiple mentions of woods, even the Hidden Wood of Obad-Hai - divine realm which is all about untamed wilderness (so again, primarily woods). You were probably thinking about Sigil, and while Sigil is more important for Planescape than any other city for any other setting limiting Planescape to it is misleading.