New tashas feat to strong?

[Taebyn]

Specifically eldritch adept (agonizing blast) coupled with magic initiate to snatch up hex and eldritch blast. The sorlock is well known and this just enables it on another level of stupid, sorcadin.
Imagine sorlock levels of cheese on an ancients paladin. While this was doable as tri class before, it’s much easier now, and without any role play stigma attached. Two feats and an ancients or any pally sorcadin can pump out 120 dpr. Same calculation as before, just add in auras for defense.
7/13 or 6/14 or 10/10 level splits don’t even matter because the cantrip scales off casters level. You may not get all the highest level spells, but you’ll convert the slots you do have for sorcery points. Would you allow this in your game? Or am I way off base?

For those unfamiliar with the damage I’m talking about:
4 eldritch blast with agonizing blast on a hexed target, then quicken 4 more.
Dpr hex+ eldritch blast
4 d10 eldritch blast (24 avg) + 20 (agonizing blast)+ 4 d6 hex (16 avg) = 60
Quicken 2 sorcery points + 60 avg
120 dpr avg @ 2 sorcery points per round

[Sception]

Agonizing blast has a prerequisite, so you cannot take it with the feat unless you have warlock class levels.

[stoutstien]

Agonizing blast has a prerequisite, so you cannot take it with the feat unless you have warlock class levels.

Beat me to it. Also two feats is going set them pretty far behind primary stat increases.also blowing a spell slot and a bonus action for that kinda of single target damage at level 20 isn't even that good once you factor misses.

[Taebyn]

Ty for the clarification, I was under the impression of having the prerequisite was enough.

[stoutstien]

Ty for the clarification, I was under the impression of having the prerequisite was enough.

The wording isn't the clearest. Basically if it has any prerequisite it must be met through warlock regardless if you can meet it by other means.

[Draz74]

Also if the "roleplay stigma" was any sort of hindrance, it can still be there, as taking Eldritch Adept can still involve making some kind of pact ...

[stoutstien]

Also if the "roleplay stigma" was any sort of hindrance, it can still be there, as taking Eldritch Adept can still involve making some kind of pact ...

This is just not true. The feat identifies the source of this power: yourself.

[Draz74]

This is just not true. The feat identifies the source of this power: yourself.

If you're going to use the fluff text as a ruling, then there's also the "studying occult lore" phrase in there. Which, even if it doesn't inherently involve making a pact, can still be "stigmatic" for a paladin.

[RogueJK]

In addition to the prerequisite issue already identified that negate this without a Warlock dip, and the feat-heavy aspect that would hurt an already MAD character even more, I don't see how Quickened Agonizing Eldritch Blast greatly aids a Paladin or Sorcadin specifically. You can't Smite with an Eldritch Blast, nor can you utilize other Oath spells and abilities that rely on weapon attacks. It's handy to bolster the Paladin's otherwise lackluster ranged options, but you can do almost as good in that regard with another cantrip that doesn't require spending two feats. And if you run Paladin all the way up to 6 or 7 chasing Auras, that puts a big cramp on a Sorcadin's available Spell Points, so you'd only be Quickening a couple of EBs per day anyway.

Paladins can already Nova well without all that. A Sorlock would be able to do it better, without spending Feats (or just 1 feat if you only dip 1 level of Warlock and then take Eldritch Adept), and would have more use for it.

Besides, Eldritch Blast-focused builds are quite frankly boring. There are so many other, cooler things a character (especially a caster) can be doing each round than just "I cast Eldritch Blast... again *yawn*." It doesn't matter if you're putting up big damage in Nova rounds with it, if it's boring.

[samcifer]

What about Devil's Sight? Can that one be taken to give any race superior low-light vision (or low-light vision at all, say a warforged or a human)?

[stoutstien]

If you're going to use the fluff text as a ruling, then there's also the "studying occult lore" phrase in there. Which, even if it doesn't inherently involve making a pact, can still be "stigmatic" for a paladin.

How else do you expect that paladin to identify occult stuff? Of course the idea of an illiterate paladin trying to explain to their superior why they annihilated a school leaning gnomish because it looked evil is a funny image.

[RogueJK]

What about Devil's Sight? Can that one be taken to give any race superior low-light vision?

Yes. Any of the Invocations that have no prerequisites are an option. These are:

Armor of Shadows
Beast Speech
Beguiling Influence
Devil's Sight
Eldritch Mind
Eldritch Sight
Eyes of the Runekeeper
Fiendish Vigor
Gaze of Two Minds
Mask of Many Faces
Misty Visions

[GentlemanVoodoo]

Specifically eldritch adept (agonizing blast) coupled with magic initiate to snatch up hex and eldritch blast. The sorlock is well known and this just enables it on another level of stupid, sorcadin.
Imagine sorlock levels of cheese on an ancients paladin. While this was doable as tri class before, itÂ’s much easier now, and without any role play stigma attached. Two feats and an ancients or any pally sorcadin can pump out 120 dpr. Same calculation as before, just add in auras for defense.
7/13 or 6/14 or 10/10 level splits donÂ’t even matter because the cantrip scales off casters level. You may not get all the highest level spells, but youÂ’ll convert the slots you do have for sorcery points. Would you allow this in your game? Or am I way off base?

For those unfamiliar with the damage IÂ’m talking about:
4 eldritch blast with agonizing blast on a hexed target, then quicken 4 more.
Dpr hex+ eldritch blast
4 d10 eldritch blast (24 avg) + 20 (agonizing blast)+ 4 d6 hex (16 avg) = 60
Quicken 2 sorcery points + 60 avg
120 dpr avg @ 2 sorcery points per round

I am mixed on the feats. I do agree with having feats that give class features is just a bad idea to begin with as in the case of Eldritch Adept. Martial Adept from the PHB is another feat that shouldn't have been made. In the case of Magical Initiate this just gives access to spells which, but a small selection, most spell casters get access to the same spells in one form or another.

Some of the feats look also redundant as with Artificer Initiate. Magic Initiate does the same thing pretty much and is better bang for buck.

The other feats are meh. I am sure for the combat ones there will be ways people will break them with some race and class combination but that has always been going on.

[LudicSavant]

Specifically eldritch adept (agonizing blast) coupled with magic initiate to snatch up hex and eldritch blast. The sorlock is well known and this just enables it on another level of stupid, sorcadin.
Imagine sorlock levels of cheese on an ancients paladin. While this was doable as tri class before, it’s much easier now, and without any role play stigma attached. Two feats and an ancients or any pally sorcadin can pump out 120 dpr. Same calculation as before, just add in auras for defense.
7/13 or 6/14 or 10/10 level splits don’t even matter because the cantrip scales off casters level. You may not get all the highest level spells, but you’ll convert the slots you do have for sorcery points. Would you allow this in your game? Or am I way off base?

For those unfamiliar with the damage I’m talking about:
4 eldritch blast with agonizing blast on a hexed target, then quicken 4 more.
Dpr hex+ eldritch blast
4 d10 eldritch blast (24 avg) + 20 (agonizing blast)+ 4 d6 hex (16 avg) = 60
Quicken 2 sorcery points + 60 avg
120 dpr avg @ 2 sorcery points per round

Feat: Eldritch Adept
Now you can get Warlock invocations without actually taking levels in Warlock, as long as you're a spellcaster and they don't have prerequisites. That gives us a list of...

Misty Visions
Mask of Many Faces
Gaze of Two Minds
Fiendish Vigor
Eyes of the Rune Keeper
Eldritch Sight
Eldritch Mind
Devil's Sight
Beguiling Influence
Beast Speech
Armor of Shadows

I think we can cross off a lot of these for most characters. Eldritch Mind is an inferior feat to War Caster and Beguiling Influence is an inferior skill feat. Gaze of Two Minds, Eyes of the Rune Keeper, and Beast Speech are pretty situational for feats. Fiendish Vigor will likely be outcompeted by other durability-boosting feats in many circumstances (at least past low levels). The "get a Concentration spell at-will" effects would be pretty sick for people who don't already use Concentration, but the feat has 'you're a spellcaster' as a prerequisite, though Misty Visions might still appeal to some. And Mask of Many Faces is rather expensive for a feat, but could fit into the right campaign.

The highlights for optimization, then, seem to be Devil's Sight and Armor of Shadows.

Armor of Shadows allows an any Abjurer to do the 'endlessly recharge your ward' trick that Svirfneblin do, without all the trouble of being a Svirfneblin.

Devil's Sight just has a lot of synergy with certain abilities, and is especially valuable if other members of the party also have things like Alert, Devil's Sight, or Blind-Fighting. "I can see you but you can't see me" is always a Nice Thing, not just for getting advantage (or triple advantage) and granting disadvantage, but also just because a lot of effects just plain can't target things if they can't be seen.

[Verble]

At my table we've decided that Eldritch Blast is a class ability, meaning you can only get it through the warlock class. It helps keep the flavor in the class.

[Bilbron]

Feat: Eldritch Adept
Now you can get Warlock invocations without actually taking levels in Warlock, as long as you're a spellcaster and they don't have prerequisites. That gives us a list of...

Misty Visions
Mask of Many Faces
Gaze of Two Minds
Fiendish Vigor
Eyes of the Rune Keeper
Eldritch Sight
Eldritch Mind
Devil's Sight
Beguiling Influence
Beast Speech
Armor of Shadows

I think we can cross off a lot of these for most characters. Eldritch Mind is an inferior feat to War Caster and Beguiling Influence is an inferior skill feat. Gaze of Two Minds, Eyes of the Rune Keeper, and Beast Speech are pretty situational for feats. Fiendish Vigor will likely be outcompeted by other durability-boosting feats in many circumstances (at least past low levels). The "get a Concentration spell at-will" effects would be pretty sick for people who don't already use Concentration, but the feat has 'you're a spellcaster' as a prerequisite, though Misty Visions might still appeal to some. And Mask of Many Faces is rather expensive for a feat, but could fit into the right campaign.

The highlights for optimization, then, seem to be Devil's Sight and Armor of Shadows.

Armor of Shadows allows an any Abjurer to do the 'endlessly recharge your ward' trick that Svirfneblin do, without all the trouble of being a Svirfneblin.

Devil's Sight just has a lot of synergy with certain abilities, and is especially valuable if other members of the party also have things like Alert, Devil's Sight, or Blind-Fighting. "I can see you but you can't see me" is always a Nice Thing, not just for getting advantage (or triple advantage) and granting disadvantage, but also just because a lot of effects just plain can't target things if they can't be seen.The only good Invocations for non-Warlocks are, IMO, Devil's Sight, Misty Visions, and Mask of Many Faces. But none compelling enough for me to choose it over Metamagic Adept.

[PattThe]

Everyone can get False Life as a cantrip!


and still nobody cares! XD

[Segev]

The only good Invocations for non-Warlocks are, IMO, Devil's Sight, Misty Visions, and Mask of Many Faces. But none compelling enough for me to choose it over Metamagic Adept.

It may just be a personal taste thing, but for me, Misty Visions is a huge boon to playing a Wizard Illusionist.

[Hael]

In addition to the prerequisite issue already identified that negate this without a Warlock dip, and the feat-heavy aspect that would hurt an already MAD character even more, I don't see how Quickened Agonizing Eldritch Blast greatly aids a Paladin or Sorcadin specifically. .

The optics of adding a lvl of Hexblade to the Sorcadin has been greatly improved with these feats though. You gain Sadness, which is already a win feat wise (save 2 asis gain AB), you get recharging EB fuel and you gain a not insignifiant amount of dpr with curse. The cost is delayed access to spirit guardians which u instead get at lvl 12.

[PattThe]

It may just be a personal taste thing, but for me, Misty Visions is a huge boon to playing a Wizard Illusionist.
I considered this! The question becomes is the 2 level dip worth it for other features as well, versus just getting the one invocation on a feat that could be spent elsewhere.

[cutlery]

If you're going to use the fluff text as a ruling, then there's also the "studying occult lore" phrase in there. Which, even if it doesn't inherently involve making a pact, can still be "stigmatic" for a paladin.

Perhaps you should read the fluff text for some paladins:


The Oath of Conquest calls to paladins who seek glory in battle and the subjugation of their enemies. It isn’t enough for these paladins to establish order. They must crush the forces of chaos. Sometimes called knight tyrants or iron mongers, those who swear this oath gather into grim orders that serve gods or philosophies of war and well-ordered might.

Some of these paladins go so far as to consort with the powers of the Nine Hells, valuing the rule of law over the balm of mercy. The archdevil Bel, warlord of Avernus, counts many of these paladins – called hell knights – as his most ardent supporters. Hell knights cover their armor with trophies taken from fallen enemies, a grim warning to any who dare oppose them and the decrees of their lords. These knights are often most fiercely resisted by other paladins of this oath, who believe that the hell knights have wandered too far into darkness.



The Oath of Vengeance is a solemn commitment to punish those who have committed a grievous sin. When evil forces slaughter helpless villagers, when an entire people turns against the will of the gods, when a thieves' guild grows too violent and powerful, when a dragon rampages through the countryside – at times like these, paladins arise and swear an Oath of Vengeance to set right that which has gone wrong. To these paladins – sometimes called avengers or dark knights – their own purity is not as important as delivering justice.


Darker paladins are already in the game.