How to engage the only player without their own back story

[chevyboys]

Long story short, I am running a great campaign with four players who are very engaged and interested, who all came up with their own backstories, which I used to build the plot, so they are all connected deeply to what is going on... and then one character who just kinda showed up in another players back story and has just sorta been hanging out. I will call her Sue. Sue gave me one backstory NPC to work with, and then in their back story put him on a separate plane. Sue didn't give me much else to work with even when I tried to help her do more with her backstory than "I dated a guy once". Everyone else gave me at least two dozen NPC's and asked for a seperate session 0 to flesh out backstories. Sue didn't want a backstory session, and is pretty new to roleplaying in general (e.g. she is playing a barbarian, but refuses to rage because it's "to much to keep track of"). I have offered to handle all the math for her, and even spent time going over how to work roll20 (I know, I know, but covid makes it our only option), but she still seems to just... never engage. She won't speak unless directly addressed, and she just hangs out in the back on her phone, and occasionally participates in combat, but we are running a primarily story driven campaign by popular vote.

I have tried making the plot about what little of her backstory I have, and she just sits there quietly. I have tried giving her chances to speak, and she just hunches down and pulls out her phone. I want her to have a good experience, but honestly, her character isn't really part of the plot and each time I try to make her a part of the plot it just dies. How do I engage her?

[Mork]

So it seems to me from what you say that Sue is not interrested in the same kind of game you are? Or in the game that much at all.
Might she be part of your dnd group, because you are an established friend group, who she wants to hang out with, but isn't there for the dnd?
Is she there to hang out with a person in specific?
Might it be that COVID times are just not going very good for her and that she is struggling with depression and isn't motivated for anything at all?

If all of these come back in the negative, then she might not be interrested in playing combat, and playing a charachter focussed narrative.
SHe might be interrested in puzzles (social or otherwise), and a narrative that has nothing to do with the charachters, but where you can just be "a hero".
You mention that you play something story heavy "by popular vote". Does that include her vote? You can imagine that if you get out voted on what game of game you play you might not be very motivated to participate.

There might be a possibility that her "player archtype" is that of the "audiance member". In that case you don't need to engage her, and is seems to me like she is intimidated by the prospect of having to "play out" her charachter.

Lastly, as always the best advice is. TALK TO YOUR PLAYER!!
We can theorize about what is happening, but one of my greatest lessons in live has been that thinking for other people is counterproductive if you can just ask them. Just text her, say.
"Hey susie, I get the feeling that you are not having a lot of fun in our DnD sessions. My role as the DM is foremost to make sure all my players are having fun, so, is there anything I can do to make the game more engaging for you, what is stuff you like? Or are you having a lot fun, but do I just have trouble with reading you? (which is fine, you don't need to act happy for my sake)"

OR something along those lines. Susie will be able to you much more what is required to make her have fun than we will ever be able to.

As a last resort.. well if a player doesn't engange, doesn't have any suggestion of how to make it more fun, and keeps being distracted by a phone.
You put in a lot of time and effort in making this world, and if your players don't respect that, maybe better to find other players.

[micahaphone]

Sounds like a perfect time for a classic jrpg protagonist, the amnesiac!

Are they just there to have fun and go along with the plot? Give em some good cheesy fun, their dad/spouse/themself are/were the BBEG's first mate. Were they knocked out when running awsy, losing their memory? Presumed dead and left behind after some cataclysmic secret battle between the forces of evil and a previous adventuring party? Maybe the group finds notes/research from the previous party that gives details on the tactics and goals of the villains. They make plenty of comments about how evil and cruel the first mate is.

Or maybe the notes are lost/stolen notes from the evil guys themselves, nothing like a party finding out that one of them wrote the guidance they've been following.

[Rynjin]

Having somebody come up with 20+ NPCs for you is pretty hardcore even when it's not one of your first games. That kind of **** is overwhelming for most players, and particularly ones who are just getting their footing and figuring out whether they even like the game; going full throttle on needing somebody to write a novel for you to engage them in the game is a great way to ensure that they pretty quickly decide they don't, and drop the hobby forever.

Scale it back a bit. Or a lot. Keep things simple and straightforward for a while. It might not be the game voted on by "popular vote", but unless your GOAL is to push the new player out of the game, that's the kind of thing that shouldn't be decided by vote, but by group well-being. You can very easily run a story driven campaign that doesn't need the new player to jump into the deep end of fleshing out not only their character but dozens of others before the game even begins so they're allowed to have a hook into what's going on.

[Alcore]

If it wasn't the phone i would almost peg her as "the wallflower". Personally, i wouldn't want my backstory to actually come up in game; that was the past. But then most games I've joined were adventure paths and the part of the backstory you need was a somewhat sturdy excuse for being nearby.

The phone is the biggest hurdle you appear to have. Without it she might want to an Elan; a supporting character.


Was there anything that has gotten her to set the phone down?

...

not much more to say that another hasn't.

[Alcore]

Having somebody come up with 20+ NPCs for you is pretty hardcore even when it's not one of your first games. That kind of **** is overwhelming for most players, and particularly ones who are just getting their footing and figuring out whether they even like the game; going full throttle on needing somebody to write a novel for you to engage them in the game is a great way to ensure that they pretty quickly decide they don't, and drop the hobby forever.

Scale it back a bit. Or a lot. Keep things simple and straightforward for a while. It might not be the game voted on by "popular vote", but unless your GOAL is to push the new player out of the game, that's the kind of thing that shouldn't be decided by vote, but by group well-being. You can very easily run a story driven campaign that doesn't need the new player to jump into the deep end of fleshing out not only their character but dozens of others before the game even begins so they're allowed to have a hook into what's going on.this is your second biggest hurdle


I was once applying to a game were i was *gasp* human! One of those horrible smelly things that breed like roaches and rule the world despite having no discernable edge where other races would push them out of theirs...

moving on...

I was asked to pick an ethnicity and, once picked, my name was challenged for not being typical of that ethnic group. Then we had a small arguement over a trait; it appeared in two books and neither agreed on prerequisites. Once the offending trait was gone then...

I left eventually. I wasn't going to put in the effort for a chance of being in the game. I wasn't the only one he did this with.

[Pex]

Ask her what her favorite fictional characters are: books, movies, tv. Would she be interested in a similar plot? It won't be exact, neither in names nor details, but the theme would be familiar. Perhaps she would like to explore a different choice than the character made.

[Randomthom]

I feel like people haven't really asked the key question...

Is Sue enjoying it?

If the answer is Yes then you're not doing anything wrong and you don't necessarily need to do anything more either. Some players are content being passengers at the moment, especially new players.

Obviously none of us can answer this but Sue herself. It might also be difficult to get a straight answer out of it because
a) People don't generally like to tell the person who puts the work into running a campaign that they're not enjoying it
b) With little RPG experience, Sue might not know what styles she enjoys so can't answer along the lines of "I wish there was more X" or "...less Y in this campaign" because she probably doesn't know what X and Y are/could be.

Perhaps it would be easier to engage her via another player, ask if they can find out what she likes/dislikes about the game and if she wants to get involved more yet or if she's happy just chipping in every now and again.

One major rule I'd suggest following is this, don't put her on the spot in-game. Not until she's voluntarily stepped into the spot at least a few times herself. Try to feed her some easy opportunities to get involved... She's a Barbarian so assuming strong, maybe some sort of classic tavern brawl or arm-wrestle (or arm-wrestle that turns into a brawl) :P

[Tanarii]

This player isn't right for your exceptionally back-story focused campaign. It's that simple.

Normally I'd say ask them what they want out of the D&D, but your game is so far on the non-casual edge of D&D, I can't see that you'd be able to hold that conversation in any meaningful manner. Your own expectations of what's normal for the game is going to cause any reasonable expectation for a new player to seem weird. (The same would have held true for many new players trying to join a war gaming club in the 70s.)

This player needs a casual gaming group, not yours.

[Alcore]

This player isn't right for your exceptionally back-story focused campaign. It's that simple.

Normally I'd say ask them what they want out of the D&D, but your game is so far on the non-casual edge of D&D, I can't see that you'd be able to hold that conversation in any meaningful manner. Your own expectations of what's normal for the game is going to cause any reasonable expectation for a new player to seem weird. (The same would have held true for many new players trying to join a war gaming club in the 70s.)

This player needs a casual gaming group, not yours.

On the flipside; since this is her first time rejecting her now might turn her away from D&D altogether. If we go this route recommend her to a casual DM you know that might mesh well...


Try to end on a positive note.

[Unoriginal]

Is Sue enjoying it?

Very important question.


Another one is: how do the NPCs interact with Sue's PC? Do they act as if she's here?

[KorvinStarmast]

One way to see whether she wants to be in the game or not is to have a really hard combat.
How do I engage her? Kill her character, and one of the others.
See if she cares, and see if she'd like to create a new one. If the answer is no to both, then you have your other answer - she's not there for the game, she's there for the companionship.

If the answer to either is yes, have her and the other player create their new PC's together, and come in as a pair of friends who the party meets.

The above is one of many options on how to integrate her into the group ... might work, might not.

Caveat: with her being New To Roleplaying and your other players Going Deep Into Immersion you've got an uphill climb ahead of you if you think that she'll just Jump Right In and go to Advanced Mode before getting comfortable with Normal Mode.

I am reminded of a golf outing we had some years ago. Scramble, mostly non golfers, a few golfers, and a few hard core golfers. (I used to be one of the latter, but at this point I was no longer hard core).

Our big hitter/hard core golfer tried to reach the green on a short par 4, and he smoked the drive. Killed it. We ended up in the bunker next to the green. We had two other drives in the fairway; and one of our two non golfers was out in the deep timber.

Hard core golfer convinces us that an up and down out of the trap is the best option. (He knows I am a decent sand player).

First non golfer tries to hit the ball out of the trap. Slams it into the face of the trap, never touched the sand. I get out my sand wedge, hardcore tells next non golfer "Watch how he does this" and I blast my ball out. We have 10-12 feet to putt for birdie. Hard core guy tells the next one "See, just hit a little bit behind the ball, into the sand, and you can blast it out."

Next non golfer tries, blades it, the ball hits the rake - which a certain fool (me) had just dropped into the trap after raking my shot - bounces up, and hits me in the jaw. I was watching the green.

Hilarity ensued. (Yes, we had already gotten into the beers ...)

I go over to the cart and get a cold beer out of the cooler and hold it against my jaw. Hard Core golfer hits a sand shot - we have a 5 footer for birdie. (Nice shot!) Stupid us, and stupid me for not watching more carefully as number three took their shot.

We could have saved me a bruise by just having the two of us hit out of the trap ... but here we were, asking our non golfer friends to play golf like a golfer.

I think that's what you are asking her to do.

[da newt]

Not everyone plays the same way - not everyone's fun is the same thing. Some folks are more introverted. Be kind, ask her if there is anything she'd like to do differently, and LET HER BE HERSELF. Provide opportunities for her to engage and if she doesn't jump on them, let her wallflower. Only a **** would bully her into changing if she didn't want to.

[Tanarii]

We could have saved me a bruise by just having the two of us hit out of the trap ... but here we were, asking our non golfer friends to play golf like a golfer.

I think that's what you are asking her to do.
Exactly.

No need to kick her out. No need to try and force her to play advanced story-time D&D. IMO there is a very good chance she will leave on her own, but that's neither here nor there. She may be having fun. But trying to force her is more likely to lose her, not less.

I mean, the OP should talk to her. But if so, it'd be absolutely critical to put aside all the deep down the rabbit hole assumptions about how to game that the first post appears to display.

Of course, it's just as likely I'm reading too much into it and the OP is full aware this is a "deep dive" style of play, and is merely concerned about the player appearing to be bored.

[KorvinStarmast]

Not everyone plays the same way - not everyone's fun is the same thing. Some folks are more introverted. Be kind, ask her if there is anything she'd like to do differently, and LET HER BE HERSELF. Provide opportunities for her to engage and if she doesn't jump on them, let her wallflower. Only a **** would bully her into changing if she didn't want to. Also good advice.

[Corran]

This player isn't right for your exceptionally back-story focused campaign. It's that simple.

Normally I'd say ask them what they want out of the D&D, but your game is so far on the non-casual edge of D&D, I can't see that you'd be able to hold that conversation in any meaningful manner. Your own expectations of what's normal for the game is going to cause any reasonable expectation for a new player to seem weird. (The same would have held true for many new players trying to join a war gaming club in the 70s.)

This player needs a casual gaming group, not yours.
Very much this.

I'd only add that this does not have much to do with the player being new to the game. The only difference is that an experienced player who doesn't like this approach will be able to say so, while a new player who doesn't like this approach will just think that they dont like dnd (which may be true, but it's not necessarily true).

[Unoriginal]

Killing/targeting her character may be perceived as targeting her personally, if she takes it badly.

Talking with her and seeing what she wants out of the game is the first step, IMO.

[Xervous]

Seems to be an audience member, much like me at family gatherings past the first hour.

[chevyboys]

wow, that is a lot more responses than I was expecting. I won't be able to answer everyone, but I can clarify a few things after reading all of that:
- She is new to the friend group
- She says she is having fun when I have talked to her about it, however when she talks to other members of the group she seems to say that she is finding things less than enjoyable.
- So far directly having an NPC address her, or have it be her turn in combat usually gets the phone down for a bit, as does having the talking future sight frog come out.
- I do agree that several of my players have gone above and beyond to the point of excess in backstories.
- Since, from what I understand, this campaign is the only social interaction she gets out side of her one roommate, I will not kick her from the campaign. Not during covid.
- I have made sure that at least once per session, at least on NPC talks specifically to her.
- "Seems to be an audience member, much like me at family gatherings past the first hour." I hope you and your family are well!


So basically, the consensus is, let her be a wall flower, try to figure out what she enjoys most, and add more of that to the game?

[Unoriginal]

wow, that is a lot more responses than I was expecting. I won't be able to answer everyone, but I can clarify a few things after reading all of that:
- She is new to the friend group
- She says she is having fun when I have talked to her about it, however when she talks to other members of the group she seems to say that she is finding things less than enjoyable.
- So far directly having an NPC address her, or have it be her turn in combat usually gets the phone down for a bit, as does having the talking future sight frog come out.
- I do agree that several of my players have gone above and beyond to the point of excess in backstories.
- Since, from what I understand, this campaign is the only social interaction she gets out side of her one roommate, I will not kick her from the campaign. Not during covid.
- I have made sure that at least once per session, at least on NPC talks specifically to her.
- "Seems to be an audience member, much like me at family gatherings past the first hour." I hope you and your family are well!


So basically, the consensus is, let her be a wall flower, try to figure out what she enjoys most, and add more of that to the game?

That and talking with her some more.

Since she's new to RPGs, as some issues with the mechanics, but seems to interacts with NPCs when it happens, here's what I suggest:

Have a "tutorial" fistfight for her PC and only her.

You could have a boisterous prize fighter (using the Berserker statblock but without the Greataxe) challenge her to a fight in the ring as the PCs walk in a market or enter a tavern, for example. If she wins, she gets something nice but not major, like a Common magic item or a fancy champion belt that's worth 75gps.

A solo unarmed fight will be long enough to give her the time to think about what her character could do, and a Berserk should be tough enough for her to consider using the various tricks her PC has access to. Plus she'd be in the spotlight, and you can have her opponent and the crowd react to what she does.

And regardless of she wins or loses, the prize fighter can tell her about other spots where she can fight that way, each with their own NPCs and plot points.

[Samayu]

So basically, the consensus is, let her be a wall flower, try to figure out what she enjoys most, and add more of that to the game?

Yes. It sounds like she's not disruptive, so let her be. After a session, ask her some simple questions, like "which parts were the most fun or interesting?" And make sure she knows she doesn't have to be hardcore about it, and that it's not a problem if she doesn't get as into it as the other players are.

[Amdy_vill]

so two possibilities the most likely one first

This player just isn't involved/ experienced enough with ttrpg to really gave well with a story or they are a backline player. in the first case, your beast beat is to just consistently and gently engage them. don't gaslight them and always focus on them just make sure to talk to them often and let them engage at their own pace. if you are running a story involving them focus on party dynamite more than her stories. it is often easier for new players to talk to and get involved with party members. focus on the boyfriend but involve other party members and put their skill and personal connections to the test and have the whole party interact and engaged them at their own pace. my personal favorite stories for things like this is a classic misidentification. BF is framed for a crime like being a master thief and the party focuses on saving him. you can choose to subvert the trope if you want and to have the party find out after helping him he is the thief or not your choice.

in the second case(Witch I find unlikely but should still talk about) you should still engage them as much as possible so long as you don't push them. and just let them be them. I had a wonderful party member in a long-running game who was a backline player. the DM was always stressing over if he was having fun but by the end of the game despite not having a story arc dedicated to him or anything we all view him as the heart and core of the team.

Many others bring up other types of games play and you should "Engage" in these types to try and find what she likes. generally, new players that don't fall into combat require some exploring of game mechanics and stories before they find what they like

[Bundin]

I'd try to bave a talk with her, addressing the following:

The disconnect / phone use making you wonder if she's having fun. Stress that it's ok to say no, she'd not be insulting you by not enjoying these sessions so far. The fact that time has been spent in crafting the world/story doesn't mean it's for everyone. Add that you realise that this is turned out to be an advanced group with ditto play style, which may well cause the disconnect.
Dnd being shared storytelling, which makes roleplaying a vital part of the experience, talk about the role of the DM and that of the players. Explain what roleplaying actually is.
Roleplaying 101: tips, tricks and shortcuts to get started (like picking a character that you love from a film/book/... and playing as if your character is that person in the dnd world. Break the mold when comfortable enough, etc)
Offer a practise roleplaying run one on one, if you think that might help. I've done that with my then girlfriend once, a simple 1 hour thing her character walking from a village to a city, encountering a novice highwayman who was nervous as hell (got talked down), a short 'find the macguffin in the abandoned farmhouse for the fake old lady' (thing got found, trap was sprung, ambushers were dispatched), and encountering the guards at the city gates (she got snooty, guards didn't care much, laughed at her behind her back). Super basic, but taught her to think as a character.


Also have a talk with the others. At least one of you knowingly let a new player join an advanced table. If you don't want to boot her, and it's a group of friends, everyone shares the responsibility to make sure everyone has fun. While that doesn't mean ruining the story and playing Lost Mines of Phandelver, it may mean toning down on the complexity of the campaign/world for some time. Perhaps inserting a chapter 0 might be a good idea, telling a more straightforward story over a couple of sessions, that lets her practise roleplaying without having to keep track of eleven npcs and four plot hooks.

This may lead to her leaving, because she realises that this just isn't for her. Or maybe not much changes but at least you've tried. Or she does engage with the story and with her own character and you have five players that are engaged with the story :)

[Gtdead]

Talking about backstory and engaging with this particular player won't do you any good. You need to learn (or deduce/ask others if you are not in very familiar terms with that person) the reason why she wants to participate, even at the degree that she does.

I had a female player in a group that she cared more about being around friends than playing the game. She had a fairly elaborate backstory (with heavy DM assistance, can't really tell if this is a good or a bad thing at this point) but it didn't matter much. She cared more about making cakes and inviting us to play the session at her house than actually playing the game. So we basically ignored her in game unless she wanted to engage in some way or another. She seemed happy with this arrangement. She participated in combat by shooting a bow as an elven druid.

Granted the campaign didn't focus too much on our backstories. Frankly I've never played a campaign where the backstories were important. Sure, some elements were present, like the Paladin order I created for my backstory had a lot of presence in the world because the DM liked it, but it never affected the plot. At most my character was recognized as member and was treated a certain way. Perhaps this backstory focus is intimidating to a new player?

[Bundin]

Talking about backstory and engaging with this particular player won't do you any good. You need to learn (or deduce/ask others if you are not in very familiar terms with that person) the reason why she wants to participate, even at the degree that she does.

I had a female player in a group that she cared more about being around friends than playing the game. She had a fairly elaborate backstory (with heavy DM assistance, can't really tell if this is a good or a bad thing at this point) but it didn't matter much. She cared more about making cakes and inviting us to play the session at her house than actually playing the game. So we basically ignored her in game unless she wanted to engage in some way or another. She seemed happy with this arrangement. She participated in combat by shooting a bow as an elven druid.

Granted the campaign didn't focus too much on our backstories. Frankly I've never played a campaign where the backstories were important. Sure, some elements were present, like the Paladin order I created for my backstory had a lot of presence in the world because the DM liked it, but it never affected the plot. At most my character was recognized as member and was treated a certain way.

Aye, I've met players like that as well, both with tabletop prg and boardgames. Everyone happy, no problems! However, somewhere in this topic was mentioned that, while she tells DM that she is enjoying herself, she's telling others that she isn't...

[Gtdead]

Aye, I've met players like that as well, both with tabletop prg and boardgames. Everyone happy, no problems! However, somewhere in this topic was mentioned that, while she tells DM that she is enjoying herself, she's telling others that she isn't...

That's why I started with suggesting him finding out the reasons of the player wanting to participate in the first place. A player that has no presence in the table is impossible to please and personally I don't trust that this particular player has some problem with how the DM is running things. If everyone on the table has fun, but this particular player doesn't and creates intrigue by answering diplomatically when confronted while complaining literally behind his back, then the problem is personal and probably completely irrelevant to the game.

At the very least, the DM should tell the player that is on more familiar terms with her to ask her for feedback. A yes or no answer isn't helpful at all.