Advice on where to go with my PC (optimizing)

[valdier]

So, I'm in a dilemma in a game I'm playing in currently.

We are playing a 3e storyline converted to 5e, and apparently I am one of the only players in the game that hasn't either pre-read the module or built a pc custom for this module.

I am playing an abjurer at level 5 currently, and am planning to go Warlock for Agathys combo.

The issue I am having is, every creature in the adventure (literally all of them), are resistant to fire, electricity and cold and have magic resistance.

The DM has allowed me to take Psionic Blast from UA vs fireball (PB is such an OP spell). But my options are (make a new PC Hexblade/Rogue maybe?) or figure out how to solve this characters issues to be effective and contribute. Currently my primary combat ability is Firebolt (2d10/2), when I get Agathys, I have the abjurers ward + Paladin with Intercept fighting style, so that could be very efficient. The earliest I could possibly get Elemental Mastery for cold would be level 10.

The other PC's are typically dealing out 40+ damage a round per PC while I average 5.5. I don't need to be the top damage, but I want to at least contribute in a meaningful way towards combat. Thoughts on how to optimize of fix this character?

[iTreeby]

Abjurer can still cast web, my advice is to focus on crowd control. I wouldn't multiclass into warlock for the gimmick as it increases survivability in a way that only matters if you fail at crowd control.

[valdier]

Abjurer can still cast web, my advice is to focus on crowd control. I wouldn't multiclass into warlock for the gimmick as it increases survivability in a way that only matters if you fail at crowd control.

Unfortunately, I built for crowd control and every monster in the module has magic resistance (since 4th level). So Web and grease are just failing constantly. I'm doing Warlock because it's likely the most efficient method of doing damage I can come up with right now. (5th level spell temps + ward + intercept = tons of survival)

Additionally the DM is *very* against me spending 3 hours to recharge my ward through rituals.

[Gtdead]

Honestly I'd dip cleric for Bless. If everything has magic resistance then debuffing won't work and if your party deals so much damage (although tbh I don't understand how they can sustain 40+ dpr at lvl 5, unless you mean potential without calculating miss chance), then Bless is going to contribute a lot. You have to either focus on weapon damage or buffing. You are in a tough spot here.

The best long term plan I can think of is dipping cleric for Armor and bless
Then continue Wizard, grab Booming Blade and eventually use an ASI for Mobile so you can BB and run away without triggering AoOs. It's both offense and soft control.

The other option is dipping hexblade for curse to be used with magic missiles, because eldritch blast isn't going to do much without charisma. Armor of Agathys is a bonus, but at that point, I don't think it matters that much. (I'm not a huge fan of Abjurer tbh).

I don't know your stats and if the DM has given you some leeway to change your build against the rules. It would help if you told us what other classes exist in your party and your stats (so we can see if some multiclass options are legal)

However keep in mind that as a level 5 wizard you have access to haste, and at lvl 7 you get polymorph. These spells are fairly good in this predicament. They would be a lot more powerful if you were a sorcerer, but at the very least you will be able to function. Polymorphing yourself into a giant ape can help a lot with your dpr since control is going to fail anyway. Then at lvl 9 you get animate objects which will probably turn the tables if the enemies don't have blanket resistance to non magic physical damage too, or wall of force which is a no save control. The cleric dip still applies but once you get going, you will find it harder and harder to multiclass out of the wizard. It really depends on the level cap.

[RogueJK]

Sounds like you're fighting a lot of Fiends. This can definitely be tricky for casters.

Rather than making a whole new character or trying to salvage it by going off on a multiclassing tangent with a class like Cleric or Warlock where your WIS/CHA is almost certainly lower than your INT, you should be able to tweak this current one into something workable by simply rebuilding your spellbook to shift the focus to utility spells and party buffs.

You can include a few damage spells that use an attack roll. There are still a few non-fire/cold/lightning Wizard attack spells out there, all of which can be upcast for more damage, including Magic Missile, Chromatic Orb, and Acid Arrow. And you can still keep a "save for half" AoE damage spell (like Psionic Blast) on hand, provided it's not one that causes fire/cold/lightning damage. This is handy for groups, just know that they're almost always going to make their saves and therefore only take half.

But your main focus should be making your party better and solving problems, rather than just doing damage yourself. Old standbys like Haste, Fly, Invisibility, Polymorph (as a party buff/temp healing), etc. are always useful. Utility spells like Dimension Door, Spider Climb, Rope Trick, Tiny Hut, etc. are great out of combat. Spells like Counterspell and Dispel Magic can make a big difference at key moments.

And importantly, spells like Protection from Evil and Good, Magic Circle, and similar are specifically designed to help when fighting Fiends. Even more importantly, these are also Abjuration spells, so will feed your Arcane Ward when cast.

Similarly, swap out your attack cantrip. Chill Touch should be your go-to Wizard damage cantrip against Fiends, not Fire Bolt. Despite the name, it does Necrotic damage not Cold, and it uses an attack roll so isn't affected by Magic Resistance.

[solidork]

Heres one problem: how are you going to get them to attack you?

I'd just give up on doing damage for now and focus on other things. The rest of your party all sound like they're extremely focused on that, so figure out a different niche - I know the allure of "tons of damage" is strong but there are other things you can do to contribute.

[valdier]

Honestly I'd dip cleric for Bless. If everything has magic resistance then debuffing won't work and if your party deals so much damage (although tbh I don't understand how they can sustain 40+ dpr at lvl 5, unless you mean potential without calculating miss chance), then Bless is going to contribute a lot. You have to either focus on weapon damage or buffing. You are in a tough spot here.

Monsters are mostly fiends, tons of resistances, and MR, relatively low AC's and lots of hit points.

Well, we have a ranger that is using a custom "Great bow" for 1d12 + 5 dex + 2 bracers + 3(custom feat*) + 1 bow + 1d8 colossus + 1d6 hex 2x round with archery style.
Paladin doing 1d8 + 1d6 mark + 5str + 1 + 3d8 smite (2x round) w/intercept
Cleric of life 5 (melee and bless full time - has also given up on combat to just be a bless bot for the ranger and paladin)
Whispers Bard doing all psionic spells

Sorcerer who has give up on combat and just hastes the ranger nonstop.
Me

*Custom feat replaces the point blank shot feat with flat +3 damage because the ranger was even more obscene previously. (effective -3 to hit for +10 damage)



Then continue Wizard, grab Booming Blade and eventually use an ASI for Mobile so you can BB and run away without triggering AoOs. It's both offense and soft control.

The other option is dipping hexblade for curse to be used with magic missiles, because eldritch blast isn't going to do much without charisma. Armor of Agathys is a bonus, but at that point, I don't think it matters that much. (I'm not a huge fan of Abjurer tbh).


I don't know your stats and if the DM has given you some leeway to change your build against the rules. It would help if you told us what other classes exist in your party and your stats (so we can see if some multiclass options are legal)

Well we rolled stats, (you know how that goes), and I luckily have reasonable stats (ranger and paladin have crazy numbers)

But I have roughly:
Str 10
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 20
Wis 14
Cha 14


However keep in mind that as a level 5 wizard you have access to haste, and at lvl 7 you get polymorph. These spells are fairly good in this predicament. They would be a lot more powerful if you were a sorcerer, but at the very least you will be able to function. Polymorphing yourself into a giant ape can help a lot with your dpr since control is going to fail anyway. Then at lvl 9 you get animate objects which will probably turn the tables if the enemies don't have blanket resistance to non magic physical damage too, or wall of force which is a no save control. The cleric dip still applies but once you get going, you will find it harder and harder to multiclass out of the wizard. It really depends on the level cap.

Yeah, I would honestly prefer to not just be a buff bot and dodge for the entire combat. That's currently what half the party does, because the combats go much faster if we just let the paladin and ranger get to their turns as fast as possible. It doesn't help that we almost never have more than 2-3 combats a day.


Sounds like you're fighting a lot of Fiends. This can definitely be tricky for casters.

It's 100% fiends, yeah. Specifically demons, so elemental resistance and MR in this case.


Rather than making a whole new character or trying to salvage it by going off on a multiclassing tangent with a class like Cleric or Warlock where your WIS/CHA is almost certainly lower than your INT, you should be able to tweak this current one into something workable by simply rebuilding your spellbook to shift the focus to utility spells and party buffs.

I would like to avoid just being a buff bot and dodging all combat if possible (see my notes above about that). I would like to find a way to contribute a bit more. Polymorph might be my saving grace honestly but I think Warlock is still my best option for a 2 level dip (ward always 100% between fights, and 2 more utility spells)


But your main focus should be making your party better and solving problems, rather than just doing damage yourself. Old standbys like Haste, Fly, Invisibility, etc. are always useful. Utility spells like Spider Climb, Rope Trick, Tiny Hut, etc. are great out of combat. Spells like Counterspell and Dispel Magic can make a big difference at key moments.

This is my goto purpose in the game currently. Waiting for a counter spell so, I get you on that, especially as an abjurer.


Similarly, swap out your attack cantrip. Chill Touch should be your go-to Wizard damage cantrip against Fiends, not Fire Bolt. Despite the name, it does Necrotic damage not Cold, and it uses an attack roll so isn't affected by Magic Resistance.

Yeah I might need to go that route and perhaps later, as DC's go up, Toll the Dead


Heres one problem: how are you going to get them to attack you?

I'd just give up on doing damage for now and focus on other things. The rest of your party all sound like they're extremely focused on that, so figure out a different niche - I know the allure of "tons of damage" is strong but there are other things you can do to contribute.

Getting them to attack me is pretty easy, most monsters will take the AoO when you provoke one, and the DM is at least fair, in that all monsters don't know what AoA is. Also, if I go hexblade, I could at least do front line fighting for "somewhat" good damage and then they have the choice to attack me, or the Paladin in the front rank? Not sure, just a thought

[MrStabby]

In all seriousness, can your roll up a new character? It is worth thinking about if you can.

It sounds like you picked your character because you wanted it to do certain things. This is the experience you wanted.

It has now become apparent that this isn't the experience you are going to get in this campaign - not the DM's fault as it sounds like they did signal this - but it does still seem to be the case.

Would you honestly be happier playing a wizard that doesn't do the wizarding stuff you picked the class for, than playing a different class/character that you can have a new vision for that will work in the campaign?

Sure you can make a wizard be OK in the circumstances, but this question isn't about power but its about giving you the abilities you enjoy using. Yes, you can conjure elementals and the like and wall of force will still be quite useful, but it really sounds like this isn't what you envisaged.


On the other hand, you might have picked the character because of a cool backstory or other character traits that you are reluctant to retire... in which case carry on.

[Unoriginal]

Most demons aren't resistant to fire... Do you know if your DM is using the 5e statblocks as they're in the book?

[Gtdead]

So the martials have magic weapons to bypass the resistance along with items like bracers of archery, and in addition there are few encounters per day so the Paladin can easily smite. Yes I can see how this is a problem for you. Also the cleric dip is pointless since you already have a Cleric. I'm going to assume that you don't do many short rests.

If you can get gauntlets of strength, a hexblade 1 dip will work nicely. You get few encounters per day so for now one encounter will be hexblade's curse + magic missile spam which should deal competent damage compared to paladin and ranger after calculating for miss chance. Also grab booming blade from hexblade and at lvl 9 pick mobile. MM Demons aren't really big on ranged attacks, so you can use something like expeditious retreat to quickly get in, BB and get away. Demons either stay put or move and take the rider. This will increase your potential up to 4d8+4+weapon enchantment if you can find targets that still haven't engaged in melee and you can get your familiar to give you advantage. After all, with 2-3 fights per day, it's perfectly acceptable to cast a psionic blast and expeditious retreat every combat, and you will left with enough slots for the curse+magic missile combo. If you can't find a magic weapon, you have the option of shadowblade instead but it's going to be a bit inefficient. Eventually at lvl 12 you will be able to cast Tenser's Transformation which will probably give you higher average dpr than the ranger although it's kind of risky.

Edit: If you can redo the PC and still want to play wizard, a bladesinger sounds right up your alley. If you don't want to redo the whole build, perhaps ask to change the lvl 4 ASI for mobile?

[valdier]

In all seriousness, can your roll up a new character? It is worth thinking about if you can.

It sounds like you picked your character because you wanted it to do certain things. This is the experience you wanted.[/QUOTE]

I did, and as you surmised part of it was backstory and general desire to fill a story spot. The DM has agreed to let me kind "redo" the PC if it can be similar in ability (doesn't have to be mage, but some spell casting and maybe a familiar since I use it constantly).

Partially why I'm now thinking maybe just switching to Warlock, and then go rogue later?


Most demons aren't resistant to fire... Do you know if your DM is using the 5e statblocks as they're in the book?

Yeah, these are all pathfinder conversions apparently? So in doing to so they have those 3 and MR.

[Houster]

I did, and as you surmised part of it was backstory and general desire to fill a story spot. The DM has agreed to let me kind "redo" the PC if it can be similar in ability (doesn't have to be mage, but some spell casting and maybe a familiar since I use it constantly).



Well some spell casting and a familiar.

So if you want to still be casty-
Really any warlock. Kings of the attack roll spell(EB). Take agonizing and repelling. Those two already make you competent at a fight. Pick tome(and book of rituals)/chain for a boon and you got familiar.

You can also go sorcerer, and take magic initiate for find familiar. You can take those chromatic orbs and twin them, or twinning a cantrip and/or quickening an attack spell. Like casting 2 chill touch and and orb. Divine souls get to twin guiding bolt and cleric buffs. All sorcerers get heightened spell for putting disadvantage and shadow sorcerers get hound of ill omen for a continuous disadvantage against 1 foe.
Eloquence bard+magic initiate can also give you a caster that has ways to influence saves and a familiar.
Oh and of course sorlock for focusing even more on eldritch blast. Though you would have to wait for 6th level to get metamagic(you have to get to 3th walrock for a familiar).
Oh and you can grab ritual caster for sorcerer instead of magic initiate, really buffs sorc's utility, and frankly it does not need the extra cantrips from magic initiate.

Personally i'd go divine soul and twin and quicken attack spells whenever important enough, or just guiding bolt, haste/twin haste and so on.

Now you can go more gish and just take eldritch knight, it also answers for some spell casting and a familiar.

This is a really interesting post cause it shows a situation where sorcerer trumps wizard by far. Rare stuff...

[RogueJK]

Yeah I might need to go that route and perhaps later, as DC's go up, Toll the Dead


No. Toll The Dead requires a saving throw, which triggers their Magic Resistance. You want an attack roll that doesn't do fire/cold/lightning damage, so Chill Touch will remaind your go-to cantrip.

[MrStabby]

I did, and as you surmised part of it was backstory and general desire to fill a story spot. The DM has agreed to let me kind "redo" the PC if it can be similar in ability (doesn't have to be mage, but some spell casting and maybe a familiar since I use it constantly).

Partially why I'm now thinking maybe just switching to Warlock, and then go rogue later?



Yeah, these are all pathfinder conversions apparently? So in doing to so they have those 3 and MR.

Warlock rogue is solid. Hexblade to 5 then arcane trickster beyond? Its a pretty powerful martial/caster mix.

Also, arcane trickster with a 1 or 2 level dip of cleric might work for you if you want to keep a bit of casting but not be forcing saves. Still get familliar, your saves are generally buffs/party spells so MR isn't an issue. Build for strength and shield mastery and you are a really solid tank (as your attacks of opportunity are so painful) and when you hit rogue 5 you are really difficult to kill through attacks, access to concentration + protection from evil and good spell sounds really useful though. For cleric, war cleric is good for a dip (depending on stats a bit) for some extra attacks for when you miss with sneak attack and the heavy armour and stuff. That said, the new twighlight cleric seems pretty awesome for this as well.

[valdier]

For now, I've gone with a change to the new Bladesinger and *might* pick up warlock later for pact of the blade and hexblade, I'm not 100% sure yet honestly. The new Bladesinger is a lot more capable with damage output but remains a full caster.

Being able to make shadowblade attacks raises damage output fairly well, but so too does booming blade and two attacks. Later Steel Wind Strike or polymorph can raise survivability and output even higher.

[RogueJK]

For now, I've gone with a change to the new Bladesinger and *might* pick up warlock later for pact of the blade and hexblade

I wouldn't. There's not much synergy between the INT-based Bladesinger and the CHA-based Hexblade. With both a 14 CHA and DEX, your CHA-based melee attacks won't be any better than your current DEX-based attacks. And your 14 CHA-based Warlock spells will be noticeably inferior to your 20 INT-based Wizard spells.

Just stick with Bladesinger and boost your DEX, to not only help your melee attacks, but also boost your armor class and Initiative. Going Warlock and raising CHA instead doesn't really get you anything worthwhile.

You won't even get spell slot scaling like you would if multiclassing into any other caster class, because Warlock's Pact Magic and every other caster's (including Wizard's) Spellcasting don't stack.

If you feel that you must multiclass for a few levels, Battle Smith Artificer could be handy, getting you both additional spell slots, a few more low level spells, some Infusions, as well as INT-based attacks (with magic weapons). But that comes at the steep cost of delaying your higher level Wizard spells. So multiclassing out of Bladesinger isn't necessary/optimal.

[Gignere]

Maybe a little late but I was going to suggest get tiny servants and since your DM seems remarkably generous with items. Get 3 wands of magic missile for your servants.

Enjoy some great ass kicking with bonus action of auto 9d4+9 damage. You can also upcast MM to add more damage. This would work better if you were evocation but dip one level of hexblade for hexblade curse.

Grab magic stone with your warlock dip. Now in easier fights have your servants throw magic stones.

Focus on summons so they can kick butt while you protect them with your ward.