Character that feels like a caster out of combat and a melee character in combat?

[Rfkannen]

Game was cancelled today, so I was thinking about the campaign my gm has said she plans to run after our current one finishes up in around 8 months.

The gm runs a low magic setting, and one of the best parts of the campaign has been seeing people react to the magic users in the party. I was thinking for my next character I want to play a magic user of some sort, and play really hard into the way people react, maybe play someone who wants to conquer a country or become famous, or a prophet, or a god emperor or something. (This is especially fun since the campaign is a persistent world and games effect each other!)

The problem is that this campaign would be going to at least level 12 (probably level 15, possibly level 20) And I am realizing I don't really like playing mid to high level casters in combat.

First is just that in general I prefer playing a character that is in melee, I just prefer the danger. Also the fantasy of playing the tanky one just appeals to me in general.
Second is that I feel out action economy-d , when the fighter gets to make 3 attacks/shoves/grapples a round, I feel a bit bored just getting to cast the one spell.
Third is one I have trouble explaining, but I feel like my spells get less useful? Like for example, on my wizard in a different campaign, at level 3 I could cast hold person and it felt like a huge deal, I got to basically DOUBLE the damage of my fighter characters, it was a ton of fun! Now the equivalent is polymorph and I am just feeling like.... oh okay I guess that guys a newt now. I am not sure why, but even though I have 20 int and the spells are objectively better, spells just feel less impactful at level 10 than they did at level 1?

So yeah, rp wise I want to play a utility caster that can effect things in the world, but mechanically I would prefer to play a melee bruiser in combat.

Any ideas for what to play?

[Lunali]

EK or paladin with ritual caster.

Been playing an AT with ritual caster and arcana expertise, out of combat I feel like a wizard while in combat I feel like a rogue. I'd add AT to the suggestions, but I feel like that wouldn't be very satisfying to you as it really doesn't solve the second problem in your list.

[RogueJK]

Sounds like you want a Fighter with the Ritual Caster: Wizard feat. Perhaps an Eldritch Knight specifically, if you also want some additional cantrips and a bit of in-combat spellcasting.

[Toadkiller]

Well if you play Tome Warlock you can have a wide array of rituals. Maybe go Hexblade and multi class into fighter or something to keep spellcasting fairly minor.

[Unoriginal]

Fighter with the Ritual Caster feat?

Conquest Paladin (with Ritual Caster feat)?

Maybe even Monk of the Four Elements?

[MaxWilson]

So yeah, rp wise I want to play a utility caster that can effect things in the world, but mechanically I would prefer to play a melee bruiser in combat.

Any ideas for what to play?

Dinobot? I.e. Ancestor Barb 5/Moon Druid X.

[Rfkannen]

Ritual caster sounds like a lot of fun! Sadly there's only like 5 wizards in the setting, so finding ritual spells would be difficult. Would it still be worth it if I only got the 2 rituals you start with?

[Civis Mundi]

My longest-running character fits the bill — a Bladesinger purposefully relying on the shadow blade spell. Thinking of my concentration slot as always “taken” during combat encourages taking plenty of rituals, scrying, and other out of combat utility. Plus the occasional combat spell that doesn’t require concentration. “Fighter in the streets, Wizard on the sheets,” as I like to say.

EDIT: And the nice thing about going Wizard is you’ve got lots of spells known even without ever finding them in the wild. I find Wizard more than playable with just their base spells learned. More is always nice though.

[LudicSavant]

The problem is that this campaign would be going to at least level 12 (probably level 15, possibly level 20) And I am realizing I don't really like playing mid to high level casters in combat.

[...]
Second is that I feel out action economy-d , when the fighter gets to make 3 attacks/shoves/grapples a round, I feel a bit bored just getting to cast the one spell.
Third is one I have trouble explaining, but I feel like my spells get less useful? Like for example, on my wizard in a different campaign, at level 3 I could cast hold person and it felt like a huge deal, I got to basically DOUBLE the damage of my fighter characters, it was a ton of fun! Now the equivalent is polymorph and I am just feeling like.... oh okay I guess that guys a newt now. I am not sure why, but even though I have 20 int and the spells are objectively better, spells just feel less impactful at level 10 than they did at level 1?

I can think of many builds that fit the 'casts out of combat and stabs things in combat' description, but I think the thread title might be asking the wrong question.

It sounds like a big part of your problem is that you're playing your casters really suboptimally. For instance, optimized casters have access to insane action economy shenanigans at mid-high level, yet for you they're just 'casting the one spell.' Likewise, your spells shouldn't be getting less impactful at all. If anything, the opposite.

So I think we should try to examine why your casters are falling short of what you want to accomplish in combat.

[Rfkannen]

I can think of many builds that fit the 'casts out of combat and stabs things in combat' description, but I think the thread title might be asking the wrong question.

It sounds like a big part of your problem is that you're playing your casters really suboptimally. For instance, optimized casters have access to insane action economy shenanigans at mid-high level, yet for you they're just 'casting the one spell.' Likewise, your spells shouldn't be getting less impactful at all. If anything, the opposite.

So I think we should try to examine why your casters are falling short of what you want to accomplish in combat.

This is probably a good point.

The wizard I have been having this trouble with is for the AL Oracle of war series, which levels up really fast, so I might now have gotten the best grasp on how to play a spell caster.

I am a level 10 necromancer wizard.

My main strategy is:

For most fights: Spam hold person until it works (or hypnotic pattern if the enemies are bunched up or not humanoid), then spam scorching ray

For bosses: Pop dance macabre, because the skeleton's never hit, but when they do they deal a lot of damage. Then spam fireball. The skeleton's don't really feel like they increase my action economy because they mostly just involve standing in the background shooting over and over, but in hindsight they actually do give pretty great action economy.

If you have any better suggestions I would appreciate them! I have no idea what I am doing lol.

[MaxWilson]

This is probably a good point.

The wizard I have been having this trouble with is for the AL Oracle of war series, which levels up really fast, so I might now have gotten the best grasp on how to play a spell caster.

I am a level 10 necromancer wizard.

My main strategy is:

For most fights: Spam hold person until it works (or hypnotic pattern if the enemies are bunched up or not humanoid), then spam scorching ray

For bosses: Pop dance macabre, because the skeleton's never hit, but when they do they deal a lot of damage. Then spam fireball. The skeleton's don't really feel like they increase my action economy because they mostly just involve standing in the background shooting over and over, but in hindsight they actually do give pretty great action economy.

If you have any better suggestions I would appreciate them! I have no idea what I am doing lol.

Here's a really simple one: cast Animate Dead in advance so you have four or six zombies. Then you can use your bonus action even in normal fights to have those zombies do all of that shoving/grappling/etc. that you envy fighters for doing. Their individual Athletics bonuses will be small compared to a Fighter's, but with four or six attempts per turn you'll still have a lot of successes against most monsters (because their Athletics bonus is also small, except for Fire/Frost/Stone Giants).

Then your turn will look less like "spam scorching ray" and more like "maneuver zombies to do a bunch of grapples AND spam scorching ray," which is comparable to or better than a fighter's "do a bunch of grapples and make a weapon attack."

[Eldariel]

First, re/OP: You can certainly do this with Swords Bard or Bladesinger Wizard just fine to this end. Current Bladesinger in particular, with the cantrip + attack melee option, is actually really potent at hitting things and still gets access to Magic Jar and Tenser's on 11 if you wanna keep doing the "beat things up"-thing. Swords Bard is a nice maneuver Fighter in melee and gets pretty solid stats all-around, though missing out on shields is a bit of a pain (can still pick Moderately Armored for +2 AC and stat bonus even though the medium armor part is wasted).


Re/Wizard's action economy: But it's also true that Wizards can do a lot with their bonus action and subordinates. Necromancer in particular has no reason not to have some skeletons + zombies with equipment around. And familiar, who can Help or drop some ball bearings or oil or whatever. And while you only attack once, you can affect multiple enemies (the key AOE CC you have on this level are Hypnotic Pattern, Web, and Watery Sphere but with level 5 spells, also Wall of Force which autoworks, and Blindness which can multitarget and doesn't take Concentration). You can also add Telekinesis and/or Bigby's to that list of stuff that keeps on giving.

Overall, on level 10, you should have zero problem getting stuff done as a Wizard. It's just a matter of picking the right spells. Polymorph is nice but single target stuff is always unreliable unless you're specifically a diviner. Generally you want repeated stuff and AOE stuff, or just summon a Barlgura with Summon Greater Demon (Charm it to get it to give you its true name) and have it start beating things up or grappling them or Phantasmal Forcing them for ~400 rounds.


In general, caster's biggest way of maximising their action economy is minionmancy. Danse Macabre isn't bad either: those bonuses really do add up. But having a bunch of Animated Dead to start off is pretty worthwhile and means you don't need to worry about casting big spells in most encounters; you can get cute with Minor Illusion and cantrips in general while your superbuff skeleton archers and plate-armoured Zombies do the job (the Zombies just grapple so they don't care about the disadvantages and they're actually really pesky to get rid of thanks to enemies rarely having Radiant damage and them having pretty decent Con saves).

[Meichrob7]

If I’ve said it once I’ve said it a thousand times, he blades are basically martial classes who’s spells are effectively “Two times per short rest” class abilities.

I mostly say that in reference to eldritch blast being effectively a long bow that scales off charisma, but if you wanna go hexblade sword pact then the point is even more true.

Most of the best spells a hexblade has are buff spells so even the minimal casting you’d do during combat is just making you better at melee.

[MaxWilson]

plate-armoured Zombies do the job (the Zombies just grapple so they don't care about the disadvantages and they're actually really pesky to get rid of thanks to enemies rarely having Radiant damage and them having pretty decent Con saves).

Request clarification: what do you mean "don't care about the disadvantages"? In the context of grappling it absolutely does matter if they don't have proficiency:

Armor Proficiency: Anyone can put on a suit of armor or strap a shield to an arm. Only those proficient in the armor’s use know how to wear it effectively, however. Your class gives you proficiency with certain types of armor. If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can’t cast Spells.

and it also matters if they don't have sufficient strength because they'll drop to 10' movement speed, which is garbage-tier. (So, you want them in chain, not plate. Also chain is cheaper.) Which disadvantages are you saying they can ignore?

[Eldariel]

Request clarification: what do you mean "don't care about the disadvantages"? In the context of grappling it absolutely does matter if they don't have proficiency:

Armor Proficiency: Anyone can put on a suit of armor or strap a shield to an arm. Only those proficient in the armor’s use know how to wear it effectively, however. Your class gives you proficiency with certain types of armor. If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can’t cast Spells.

and it also matters if they don't have sufficient strength because they'll drop to 10' movement speed, which is garbage-tier. (So, you want them in chain, not plate. Also chain is cheaper.) Which disadvantages are you saying they can ignore?

Ah, I just meant "don't care" as in "they aren't really there to be much more than speedbumps anyways so there isn't much on the line of whether they succeed than fail; as long as they are there and have a chance that's all you care about". But yeah, Chain is better and cheaper, you're right.

[freakybeak]

Second the hexblade recommendations. I am playing one at the moment and have zero damaging spells. I use my drow magic for darkness in combat, apply some things like hex or hexblades curse and occasionally use things like hypnotic pattern in combat. Other than that, I just wail on things with my polearm and do sick damage. I was a bit paranoid about losing my character so took too many defensive spells rather than out of combat utility spells, but you could definitely take a few more of those than I have lol

[Dork_Forge]

I'm going to throw out there a V.Human Battle Smith (Fighting Initiate: Dueling/Archery)

You get cantrips, a prepared list (that's a pretty good mix of other lists), ritual casting and slightly better than half caster progression. Then there's the magical tinkering and infusions to help round you out in and out of combat.

[Tanarii]

I am not sure why, but even though I have 20 int and the spells are objectively better, spells just feel less impactful at level 10 than they did at level 1?Thats because they are less impactful. Your highest level slots remain almost as impactful, relatively speaking, but slightly less so over time, because you have all those other slots left over to back them up.

At level 1 you only get two of them in an entire adventuring day, and the rest of the time you're on cantrips. They are 2 rounds of possibly 20-25 of combat. They are hugely impactful as a result, at that total difficulty.

Starting at level 3, you get to cast one full power or almost full power slot (level-1) per Medium encounter in an adventuring day.

From that point onwards you get more and more lower level slots available for additional rounds.

Spells being relatively less impactful as you level up is by design.

[cutlery]

I'd consider a warlock or a bladesinger wizard.

You can very much play a bladesinger like pure melee; though they're better built for damage output and high AC than for taking damage themselves - teleport when you're swarmed (unless that's too much magic).

EKs get too few spells known for what you want, I think, but an EK/Wizard might work.

If what you want is a character that has better options than magic in combat and lots of magic out of combat things might be tricky - you'll have to restrict your choices somewhat to avoid magic in combat completely.

[Lunali]

Ritual caster sounds like a lot of fun! Sadly there's only like 5 wizards in the setting, so finding ritual spells would be difficult. Would it still be worth it if I only got the 2 rituals you start with?

In that case, I would probably go with a class that has access to a lot of the ritual spells, so EK or AT, as this allows you to learn spells through leveling up, then swap them out. Alternatively, a multiclass paladin with either sorceror and ritual caster or warlock with book of shadows might work out.

[MaxWilson]

Ah, I just meant "don't care" as in "they aren't really there to be much more than speedbumps anyways so there isn't much on the line of whether they succeed than fail; as long as they are there and have a chance that's all you care about". But yeah, Chain is better and cheaper, you're right.

I think you should care, because speedbumps that are grappling you become much, much more speedbumpy--you're (practically) forced to engage with them and chew through their irritating HP. If the DM ruled that zombies aren't proficient in chain mail armor even if they were in real life (e.g. hobgoblin zombies), I'd probably still armor them, but I'd assign roughly half of them to Help the others grapple in order to cancel out the disadvantage.

BTW Undead Fortitude isn't that impactful. It's roughly equivalent to 10 extra HP on average against weak foes, near zero against strong foes--it's just very swingy so you notice the outliers more.

E.g. for gnolls (attacking at +3 for d8+1) vs. AC 8, 22 HP zombies, my Monte Carlo sim says it takes just over 33 HP to kill each zombie (vs. 24.9 HP without Undead Fortitude). However, the top 10% (top 100 out of 1000 longest-lived zombies) take 49-102 damage to kill with Undead Fortitude, whereas without it the top 10% take only 28-38 damage to kill.

As damage increases, Undead Fortitude matters even less. By the time zombies are facing Fire Giants, average damage to kill them is about 30 HP with or without Undead Fortitude, and even the top 10% are just requiring 39-71. So, gnolls vs. unarmored zombies are practically a best-case scenario for Undead Fortitude (low AC minimizes crits), and even then it still isn't great.




let damage hp damageRoll =
let rec recur damageTaken (rolls: _ list) =
let roll, crit = damageRoll()
let dmg = damageTaken + roll
let save = (rand 20)
if dmg < hp then recur dmg (Ops.addTo rolls roll)
elif crit || (dmg > 0 && save <= (roll+1)) then dmg//, rolls, roll, crit, save
else recur dmg (Ops.addTo rolls roll)
recur 0 []

let attack ac toHit damage critDamage () =
match rand 20 with
| 20 -> critDamage(), true
| x when x + toHit >= ac -> damage(), false
| _ -> 0, false
let d n dSize bonus () =
Seq.init n (thunk1 rand dSize) |> Seq.sum |> (+) bonus
let firstLast lst = List.head lst, List.last lst
// gnolls
[for x in 1..1000 do
damage 22 (attack 8 3 (d 1 8 1) (d 2 8 1)) |> float
] |> List.sortDescending |> List.take 100 |> firstLast
// fire giants
[for x in 1..1000 do
damage 22 (attack 8 11 (d 6 6 7) (d 12 6 7)) |> float
] |> List.sortDescending |> List.take 100 |> firstLast

[nickl_2000]

So choices here, several have been mentioned.

EK Fighter, Magic Initiate Cleric for Guidance, Healing Word, and Thaumaturgy.
AT Rogue, Magic Initiate or not, whatever.
Hexblade Warlock, with weapon invocations

[RogueJK]

In that case, I would probably go with a class that has access to a lot of the ritual spells, so EK or AT, as this allows you to learn spells through leveling up, then swap them out.

The thing is, Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight don't get innate access to very many Ritual spells.

Arcane Trickster
Illusory Script (1st)
Magic Mouth (2nd)
Phantom Steed (3rd)
Plus potentially another at 3rd, 8th, and 14th if you want to utilize your "any school" spells.


Eldritch Knight
Alarm (1st)
Leomund's Tiny Hut (3rd)
Plus potentially another at 3rd, 8th, and 14th if you want to utilize your "any school" spells.

[Toadkiller]

Since you are playing a fairly non-standard world for 5e I would suggest sending this thread to your DM along with a note about your thoughts on these suggestions. Ultimately how well any of this lines up with what you want and how the campaign world works is up to the two of you.

You may even be able to work out some methods to make things work better. For rituals, as an example, if I was DMing this (as I understand it) I would set up a means for you to get access to more rituals as you go. Either via downtime research and/or by setting up story hooks to move things along. “You have heard rumors of ancient writings carved into the walls of a cave to the north. Writings that supposedly hold power over the spirits of old.” After you go and explore the caves (and deal with the bad guy there) you find a ritual of unseen servant or something.

If you know going in that the DM will help make ritual casting give you (at least some) of what you want from the character then you can sit back and keep your eyes open for story hooks. There is nothing wrong, and many things right, about clearly letting the DM know what you are hoping for from the game. It makes their job clearer and more fun.

[MaxWilson]

The thing is, Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight don't get innate access to very many Ritual spells.

Arcane Trickster
Illusory Script (1st)
Magic Mouth (2nd)
Phantom Steed (3rd)
Plus potentially another at 3rd, 8th, and 14th if you want to utilize your "any school" spells.


Eldritch Knight
Alarm (1st)
Leomund's Tiny Hut (3rd)
Plus potentially another at 3rd, 8th, and 14th if you want to utilize your "any school" spells.

I believe the suggestion is to swap your "any school" picks around every level so you can pick up a bunch.

[nickl_2000]

The thing is, Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight don't get innate access to very many Ritual spells.

Arcane Trickster
Illusory Script (1st)
Magic Mouth (2nd)
Phantom Steed (3rd)
Plus potentially another at 3rd, 8th, and 14th if you want to utilize your "any school" spells.


Eldritch Knight
Alarm (1st)
Leomund's Tiny Hut (3rd)
Plus potentially another at 3rd, 8th, and 14th if you want to utilize your "any school" spells.

I would argue that EK and AT spells are more for out of combat use than in combat use. Typically an EK will be better off doing all their attacks, or a cantrip and an attack than casting a spell. The same thing can be said for AT, since you typically don't have the DC needed to make it really stick. So, a lot of your spell slots are being used for out of combat utility spells (at least that is what I do with my AT).