psycarnum infusion + midnight metamagic

[newguydude1]

metamagic. midnight metamagic. not augmentation. metamagic.

so anyone with the wild talent feat can grab a psionic focus.
psycarnum infusions only prerequisite is a con score so pure spellcasters can grab it pretty easy.

so how do these two feats interact?

midnight metamagic:
1. 1/day you can invest in this feat.
2. every point invested lets you reduce metamagic cost by 1. only caveat is that you have to reduce it all the way to 0.
3. after casting the spell all invested points leave the feat and return to your pool.

psycarnum infusion
1. expend your psionic focus
2. treat a feat as if you have invested max essentia.



so from my reading...
1. after you cast midnight metamagic spell, the feat becomes "uninvested". because there are no more essentia points left in the feat.
2. so that means every time you expend your psionic focus, the feat becomes "re-invested" to max. because its treated as if it has max essentia points invested into it.
3. so that means every time you expend your psionic focus, you can apply metamagic for free to any spell you want as long as you cast it before the start of next round.

im not exactly sure this is right, so lets have it. why am i wrong? why wouldnt this work? lets figure this out.

[InvisibleBison]

I'm not sure this works. The Benefits section of Midnight Metamagic says: "The next time you cast that spell, the spell gains the effect of that metamagic feat". The key phrase here is "the next time" - next relative to what? As far as I can tell, it's relative to your investing essentia into the feat and choosing the spell(s) and metamagic feat(s) to use it with. Psycarnum infusion doesn't reset that timer, because it doesn't actually invest any essentia in anything.

Assuming the reasoning above is wrong, though, and the trick does work, point 3 of your reading isn't quite right. The choice of spell(s) and metamagic feat(s) you made when you first invested essentia into Midnight Metamagic isn't reset when you cast the spells or when you use Psycarnum infusion, so you have to stick with the initial choices and can't metamagic to any spell.

[newguydude1]

I'm not sure this works. The Benefits section of Midnight Metamagic says: "The next time you cast that spell, the spell gains the effect of that metamagic feat". The key phrase here is "the next time" - next relative to what? As far as I can tell, it's relative to your investing essentia into the feat and choosing the spell(s) and metamagic feat(s) to use it with. Psycarnum infusion doesn't reset that timer, because it doesn't actually invest any essentia in anything.

Assuming the reasoning above is wrong, though, and the trick does work, point 3 of your reading isn't quite right. The choice of spell(s) and metamagic feat(s) you made when you first invested essentia into Midnight Metamagic isn't reset when you cast the spells or when you use Psycarnum infusion, so you have to stick with the initial choices and can't metamagic to any spell.

i dont think this line of reasoning is quite correct.
you have a feat that has nothing invested in it.
psycarnum infusion lets you treat that feat as if you invested maximum in it.
so your contesting that when this happens you dont get to choose the spells that receive the benefit of midnight metamagic.

but i think your wrong.
the feat must have spells selected if its invested. you can't have no spells selected yet 4 essentia invested into it. its illegal
psycarnum infusion lets you pretend you invested max essentia into the feat.
therefore you have to select spells, its mandatory, if you activate psycarnum infusion for this feat. because max essentia investment with no spells selected is illegal.

selecting midnight metamagic with psycarnum infusion is legal.
"as if you invested in the feat" includes choosing what spells you invested because you can treat midnight metamagic as if you invested in it without selecting spells.

[illyahr]

metamagic. midnight metamagic. not augmentation. metamagic.

so anyone with the wild talent feat can grab a psionic focus.
psycarnum infusions only prerequisite is a con score so pure spellcasters can grab it pretty easy.

so how do these two feats interact?

midnight metamagic:
1. 1/day you can invest in this feat.
2. every point invested lets you reduce metamagic cost by 1. only caveat is that you have to reduce it all the way to 0.
3. after casting the spell all invested points leave the feat and return to your pool.

psycarnum infusion
1. expend your psionic focus
2. treat a feat as if you have invested max essentia.



so from my reading...
1. after you cast midnight metamagic spell, the feat becomes "uninvested". because there are no more essentia points left in the feat.
2. so that means every time you expend your psionic focus, the feat becomes "re-invested" to max. because its treated as if it has max essentia points invested into it.
3. so that means every time you expend your psionic focus, you can apply metamagic for free to any spell you want as long as you cast it before the start of next round.

im not exactly sure this is right, so lets have it. why am i wrong? why wouldnt this work? lets figure this out.

Highlighted why this doesn't work. You could spontaneously decide on a spell and metamagic feat once but would not be able to do it again until the next day.

[newguydude1]

Highlighted why this doesn't work. You could spontaneously decide on a spell and metamagic feat once but would not be able to do it again until the next day.

through the feat. you cant invest it through the feat again until the next day.
psycarnum infusion forces the feat to be treated as if it is invested again with max essentia.

[InvisibleBison]

i dont think this line of reasoning is quite correct.
you have a feat that has nothing invested in it.
psycarnum infusion lets you treat that feat as if you invested maximum in it.
so your contesting that when this happens you dont get to choose the spells that receive the benefit of midnight metamagic.

but i think your wrong.
the feat must have spells selected if its invested. you can't have no spells selected yet 4 essentia invested into it. its illegal
psycarnum infusion lets you pretend you invested max essentia into the feat.
therefore you have to select spells, its mandatory, if you activate psycarnum infusion for this feat. because max essentia investment with no spells selected is illegal.

selecting midnight metamagic with psycarnum infusion is legal.
"as if you invested in the feat" includes choosing what spells you invested because you can treat midnight metamagic as if you invested in it without selecting spells.

Having essentia invested in Midnight Metamagic but no spells chosen is not something that can ever happen, I agree. However, Psycarnum Infusion doesn't invest any essentia in anything; it merely lets you act as if there was essentia invested in a thing. Since you can only choose what spells and metamagic feats to use with Midnight Metamagic when you invest essentia in it, activating Psycarnum Infusion doesn't let you make that choice. You're stuck with whatever spells and feats you selected the last time you invested essentia in Midnight Metamagic.


Highlighted why this doesn't work. You could spontaneously decide on a spell and metamagic feat once but would not be able to do it again until the next day.

No, this isn't correct. Psycarnum Infusion doesn't actually invest any essentia in anything, so it doesn't trigger Midnight Metamagic's 1/day limit.

[newguydude1]

Having essentia invested in Midnight Metamagic but no spells chosen is not something that can ever happen, I agree. However, Psycarnum Infusion doesn't invest any essentia in anything; it merely lets you act as if there was essentia invested in a thing. Since you can only choose what spells and metamagic feats to use with Midnight Metamagic when you invest essentia in it, activating Psycarnum Infusion doesn't let you make that choice. You're stuck with whatever spells and feats you selected the last time you invested essentia in Midnight Metamagic.

thats a reasonable interpretation. so in other words, you can quicken a spell all day everyday.

can psycarnum infusion be used alongside the 1/day investment? so you dont have to invest in a bajillion incarnum feats to get your essentia pool count up.

[InvisibleBison]

can psycarnum infusion be used alongside the 1/day investment? so you dont have to invest in a bajillion incarnum feats to get your essentia pool count up.

I think so, yes. The 1/day restriction only applies to investing essentia in Midnight Metamagic and choosing what spells and feats to use it with. Since Psycarnum Infusion doesn't let you do either of those things, there's no limit to how often you can use it on Midnight Metamagic (other than the rate at which you can regain your psionic focus, of course).

[magicalmagicman]

Having essentia invested in Midnight Metamagic but no spells chosen is not something that can ever happen, I agree. However, Psycarnum Infusion doesn't invest any essentia in anything; it merely lets you act as if there was essentia invested in a thing. Since you can only choose what spells and metamagic feats to use with Midnight Metamagic when you invest essentia in it, activating Psycarnum Infusion doesn't let you make that choice. You're stuck with whatever spells and feats you selected the last time you invested essentia in Midnight Metamagic.

I don't think this is correct.

Lets say your essential pool is 2, and your essentia capacity is 4.
You invest 2 points into empower spell for magic missile and cast it.
Now activate Psycarnum Infusion. With your interpretation, 2 points will be reinvested into magic missile and empower spell, and 2 points will be not invested, which as pointed out before, is illegal.

So newguydude1 is correct. You select new spells and metamagic everytime you activate Psycarnum Infusion on an empty Midnight Metamagic. Because the correct interpretation has no illegal scenarios.

[InvisibleBison]

I don't think this is correct.

Lets say your essential pool is 2, and your essentia capacity is 4.
You invest 2 points into empower spell for magic missile and cast it.
Now activate Psycarnum Infusion. With your interpretation, 2 points will be reinvested into magic missile and empower spell, and 2 points will be not invested, which as pointed out before, is illegal.

So newguydude1 is correct. You select new spells and metamagic everytime you activate Psycarnum Infusion on an empty Midnight Metamagic. Because the correct interpretation has no illegal scenarios.

There's nothing in the text of Midnight Metamagic that says you can't invest more essentia in it than the sum of the metamagic feats' spell level adjustments. It would be rather silly to do so, but it is legal. So the scenario you're describing isn't a problem.

[newguydude1]

There's nothing in the text of Midnight Metamagic that says you can't invest more essentia in it than the sum of the metamagic feats' spell level adjustments. It would be rather silly to do so, but it is legal. So the scenario you're describing isn't a problem.

i think this is where you cross from objective-no-man, to someone actively trying to lawyer something from working.


you can invest essentia into this feat and choose one or more spells that you know (and have prepared, if you prepare spells) to apply the effect of a metamagic feat that you know.

you have to invest and choose a spell. you cant invest and not choose a spell.

[magicalmagicman]

I think the original premise of his argument is incorrect as well. When you activate Psycarnum Infusion, you need to use the invest part of the feat description.

I mean for other feats, you invest, and receive a bonus. If you activate Psycarnum Infusion, you have to invoke the "invest" rules to see what the consequences are. "As if you have invested", so what does "as if you have invested" look like? You look at the "invest" part of the feat description, and invoke it until you reach your max essentia capacity.

It's the only way this all works. Making a special exception for Midnight Metamagic goes into house rule territory.

[Darg]

Once per day, you can invest essentia into
this feat and choose one or more spells that you know
(and have prepared, if you prepare spells) to apply the
effect of a metamagic feat that you know.

Once per day you choose your spells.


The next
time you cast that spell, the spell gains the effect of that
metamagic feat without any change to its level (or casting
time, if you cast spells spontaneously).

The effect only applies on the next cast of the spell. Even if you were able to reinvest in the feat, you couldn't choose new spells to affect so the essentia would be wasted. It also can't retroactively re-enhance the spells previously affected by the feat.


There's nothing in the text of Midnight Metamagic that says you can't invest more essentia in it than the sum of the metamagic feats' spell level adjustments. It would be rather silly to do so, but it is legal. So the scenario you're describing isn't a problem.


However large your essentia pool is, you can only invest a
certain amount of essentia into any one soulmeld, feat, class
feature, magic item, or other incarnum receptacle. Your
character level determines this essentia capacity, as shown
on Table 2–1.

Everything is limited by this maximum capacity. Not to mention the feat also mentions this capacity in the description:


as long as you had at
least 3 points of essentia to invest, had an essentia
capacity (see Table 2–1: Essentia Capacity) of
3 or greater, and knew both the Empower
Spell and Enlarge Spell feats.

[magicalmagicman]

Once per day you choose your spells.



The effect only applies on the next cast of the spell. Even if you were able to reinvest in the feat, you couldn't choose new spells to affect so the essentia would be wasted. It also can't retroactively re-enhance the spells previously affected by the feat.

Other feats can only be invested once a day. That limit doesn't stop Psycarnum Infusion from invoking those rules many times through out the day.

Once again you are using the "invest" part of the feat description in full for all feats when you activate Psycarnum Infusion. Midnight Metamagic is no different. You select spells when you invoke this part of the feat description.

[nijineko]

The general problem with Psycarnum Infusion is that it doesn't "invest" anything at all. There is no act of "investing" mentioned as part of the feat. Here is the text:

Benefit: To use this feat, you must expend your psionicfocus. Until the start of your next turn, one of your soulmelds,
incarnum feats, class features, or other incarnum
receptacles is treated as if it had essentia invested in it equal
to its maximum essentia capacity. You don’t gain any bonus
essentia from this effect.

Therefore, what Psycarnum Infusion actually does is treat the targeted receptacle "as if it were already full" thus, only feats which have an ongoing or usable effect when they have incarnum in them are affected by Psycarnum Infusion. Feats or abilities which trigger "when you invest" aren't affected. Technically.

If it said instead "as if you had just invested essentia in it equal to its max..." then it would work with any target.

So... with Midnight Metamagic, it could probably be targeted, but as another pointed out the PI feat doesn't let you select spells. Thus you would probably have to fill the feat as normal to set what spell it affects for the day, and thereafter you could use the PI and MM feats to re-trigger the SAME effect, thus only affecting the same spell. Sound like a good deal for a spontaneous caster, but not so much for a prepared caster.

That's my take. I may have missed a logical spot so feel free to point it out if I did.

[InvisibleBison]

The general problem with Psycarnum Infusion is that it doesn't "invest" anything at all. There is no act of "investing" mentioned as part of the feat. Here is the text:


Therefore, what Psycarnum Infusion actually does is treat the targeted receptacle "as if it were already full" thus, only feats which have an ongoing or usable effect when they have incarnum in them are affected by Psycarnum Infusion. Feats or abilities which trigger "when you invest" aren't affected. Technically.

If it said instead "as if you had just invested essentia in it equal to its max..." then it would work with any target.

So... with Midnight Metamagic, it could probably be targeted, but as another pointed out the PI feat doesn't let you select spells. Thus you would probably have to fill the feat as normal to set what spell it affects for the day, and thereafter you could use the PI and MM feats to re-trigger the SAME effect, thus only affecting the same spell. Sound like a good deal for a spontaneous caster, but not so much for a prepared caster.

That's my take. I may have missed a logical spot so feel free to point it out if I did.

I came here to make this exact post, but since it's already been made I'll just say that I agree with it.

[Darg]

Sound like a good deal for a spontaneous caster, but not so much for a prepared caster.

You choose spells and then only the next cast of the spell benefits. A prepared caster has the benefit of applying the benefit to each prepared spell so you could have the same spell benefit multiple times: 3 enlarged fireballs. A spontaneous caster would have to apply the benefit to different spells instead as the next cast consumes the benefit. If you enlarge a fireball three times your next fireball cast is enlarged 3 times, but bonuses from the same source don't stack negating any benefit.

[ExLibrisMortis]

"As if it had essentia invested in it" does include "as if there was an essentia-investment event in the past". "Had invested" is past perfect, in this context resultative. That is, the "investing" happened prior to something in the past, and the result at that moment in the past is what you're talking about. Note that this is relative to the event mentioned just before, which is "the start of your next turn", so "the past" is, in this case, during your turn, and the investment is assumed to have happened at some time prior to that.

Midnight Metamagic wouldn't be "as if it had essentia invested in it" if the inferred investment event didn't include the selection of a spell and metamagic feat (the current benefit of the feat changes with the details of the investment event). The feat doesn't specify how you should infer what the investing looked like. In cases like this, there's basically two ways to go: it doesn't say you get to decide, so you can't, or it up to the player to infer whatever they want. In this case, the first doesn't apply (neither does the second, really), because the investment event is in fact patterned after real events that have their own rules (as per Midnight Metamagic), and it doesn't say the inferred investment is any different from a regular investment. Hence it's up to the player to set the parameters, subject to all the normal restrictions.

[InvisibleBison]

"As if it had essentia invested in it" does include "as if there was an essentia-investment event in the past". "Had invested" is past perfect, in this context resultative. That is, the "investing" happened prior to something in the past, and the result at that moment in the past is what you're talking about. Note that this is relative to the event mentioned just before, which is "the start of your next turn", so "the past" is, in this case, during your turn, and the investment is assumed to have happened at some time prior to that.

Midnight Metamagic wouldn't be "as if it had essentia invested in it" if the inferred investment event didn't include the selection of a spell and metamagic feat (the current benefit of the feat changes with the details of the investment event). The feat doesn't specify how you should infer what the investing looked like. In cases like this, there's basically two ways to go: it doesn't say you get to decide, so you can't, or it up to the player to infer whatever they want. In this case, the first doesn't apply (neither does the second, really), because the investment event is in fact patterned after real events that have their own rules (as per Midnight Metamagic), and it doesn't say the inferred investment is any different from a regular investment. Hence it's up to the player to set the parameters, subject to all the normal restrictions.

Investing essentia in Midnight Metamagic and choosing the spells and feats that Midnight Metamagic applies to are seperate things, though. So if your interpretation is correct (which it very well may be, I'm not very familiar with the minutia of grammar), it still wouldn't let you swap what spells and feats Midnight Metamagic is affecting.

[newguydude1]

in case anyone is wondering, im probably not gonna use this combo because, even i think its super iffy and requires like an entire essay on grammar rules to not convince but simply explain to a dm how the interaction works.

but still, id like to know how this discussion ends so continue please!

[ExLibrisMortis]

Investing essentia in Midnight Metamagic and choosing the spells and feats that Midnight Metamagic applies to are seperate things, though. So if your interpretation is correct (which it very well may be, I'm not very familiar with the minutia of grammar), it still wouldn't let you swap what spells and feats Midnight Metamagic is affecting.
They are not. You choose what type of investment you make (what metamagic feat for what spell), and the essentia cost depends on that, as does the feat's effect. You can't separate out the choice and the investment.


in case anyone is wondering, im probably not gonna use this combo because, even i think its super iffy and requires like an entire essay on grammar rules to not convince but simply explain to a dm how the interaction works.

but still, id like to know how this discussion ends so continue please!
Any sentence requires an essay to explain how its grammar gives rise to a certain interpretation. Language is not trivial, even when what is being said is simple and straightforward. It's just that most of the time, you don't have to be too detailed, too precise, and people will forgive you any small errors in the interest of smooth communication. But when you're forced to do a close reading of rules text, preparing an argument that stands up to scrutiny, you're going to take up a bit of space laying out all the details. As far as I'm concerned, the reading I'm presenting is the natural reading, but even then it takes some time to dissect.

I mean, if you think it's too iffy, fair enough, but there's no reason to throw the feat out on my account. I'm just being exceptionally pedantic.

[InvisibleBison]

They are not. You choose what type of investment you make (what metamagic feat for what spell), and the essentia cost depends on that, as does the feat's effect. You can't separate out the choice and the investment.

My attempts to refute this argument have convinced me that it is correct. Using Psycarnum Infusion on Midnight Metamagic does let you change what spells and metamagic feats you apply the effect of Midnight Metamagic to.

[newguydude1]

My attempts to refute this argument have convinced me that it is correct. Using Psycarnum Infusion on Midnight Metamagic does let you change what spells and metamagic feats you apply the effect of Midnight Metamagic to.

really? so you guys all agree that a spellcaster with
wild talent
psycarnum infusion
midnight metamagic

can reduce the cost of every single metamagic in the game by your essentia capacity?
so in other words, every spell is now twinned or quickened for free? assuming you spend an action to get the psionic focus beforehand?

[InvisibleBison]

really? so you guys all agree that a spellcaster with
wild talent
psycarnum infusion
midnight metamagic

can reduce the cost of every single metamagic in the game by your essentia capacity?
so in other words, every spell is now twinned or quickened for free? assuming you spend an action to get the psionic focus beforehand?

Yeah, but bear in mind that you don't get an essentia capacity of 4 until 18th level, or 12th level if you spring for the Improved Essentia Capacity feat and have at least 18 Constitution.

[newguydude1]

Any sentence requires an essay to explain how its grammar gives rise to a certain interpretation. Language is not trivial, even when what is being said is simple and straightforward. It's just that most of the time, you don't have to be too detailed, too precise, and people will forgive you any small errors in the interest of smooth communication. But when you're forced to do a close reading of rules text, preparing an argument that stands up to scrutiny, you're going to take up a bit of space laying out all the details. As far as I'm concerned, the reading I'm presenting is the natural reading, but even then it takes some time to dissect.

I mean, if you think it's too iffy, fair enough, but there's no reason to throw the feat out on my account. I'm just being exceptionally pedantic.

thanks man, i called it in too soon.

now what to do with this newfound power...

still amazes me how this trick isnt mentioned in every single metamagic related discussion ever made.

[InvisibleBison]

still amazes me how this trick isnt mentioned in every single metamagic related discussion ever made.

Unfortunately, I think I might have figured out why this is the case. Using Psycarnum Infusion requires a standard action, since it's a psionic feat (and thus a supernatural ability) that doesn't specify what kind of action it takes to use. Thus, you have to find a way to get two standard actions per round to benefit from this combo, which is a significant disadvantage compared to other forms of free metamagic.

[newguydude1]

Unfortunately, I think I might have figured out why this is the case. Using Psycarnum Infusion requires a standard action, since it's a psionic feat (and thus a supernatural ability) that doesn't specify what kind of action it takes to use. Thus, you have to find a way to get two standard actions per round to benefit from this combo, which is a significant disadvantage compared to other forms of free metamagic.

ive seen this debate before. expending psionic focus is a free action, and thats what triggers the feat. and this is the only interpretation that doesnt destroy the functionality of more than half of the psionic feats in existence.

all psionic feats that trigger off psionic focus expenditure is a free action unless stated otherwise in the feat description.

[InvisibleBison]

ive seen this debate before. expending psionic focus is a free action, and thats what triggers the feat. and this is the only interpretation that doesnt destroy the functionality of more than half of the psionic feats in existence.

all psionic feats that trigger off psionic focus expenditure is a free action unless stated otherwise in the feat description.

I'd be happy for this to be the case, but "a bunch of feats wouldn't be useful if the rules worked this way" doesn't strike me as a particularly convincing argument, given the number of feats that are just plain not useful. I'm perfectly willing to believe that the people writing the psionic feats accidentally wrote them in a way that makes them non-functional.

[newguydude1]

I'd be happy for this to be the case, but "a bunch of feats wouldn't be useful if the rules worked this way" doesn't strike me as a particularly convincing argument, given the number of feats that are just plain not useful. I'm perfectly willing to believe that the people writing the psionic feats accidentally wrote them in a way that makes them non-functional.

if we have two "valid" interpretations, and one makes over half the feats unusable, which of the two "valid" interpretations is most likely to be the correct interpretation?
if i was trying to force something that doesnt work by raw with this argument then id see your point. but triggering off a free action is a raw valid interpretation.

[InvisibleBison]

if we have two "valid" interpretations, and one makes over half the feats unusable, which of the two "valid" interpretations is most likely to be the correct interpretation?
if i was trying to force something that doesnt work by raw with this argument then id see your point. but triggering off a free action is a raw valid interpretation.

A "RAW valid interpretation" is an oxymoron. Any interpretation is inherently not RAW. Only what's actually written in the rulebooks constitute Rules As Written.

[Silent Alarm]

if we have two "valid" interpretations, and one makes over half the feats unusable, which of the two "valid" interpretations is most likely to be the correct interpretation?

You would have two valid interpretations. The consequences of one "thing" over another "thing" doesn't somehow negate the reality that both "thing" and "thing" are valid.

The point remains: Your GM has to adjudicate the rules in this regards if he is willing to accept your interpretation that it takes a free action to do, which if I must add is a perfectly reasonable interpretation of the rules (not RAW though), or the RAW that it takes at minimum a standard action to activate a single psionic feat, thus making it impossible to benefit from this without access to a second standard action.

For what it is worth, I would not blame your GM for taking the path of least resistance on this one, as this would almost assuredly never come up in any real game that isn't just a TO session.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The general rules on psionic feats state that expending your psionic focus is not an action; it is part of the action that the psionic feat you're using applies to. In the case of Psycarnum Infusion, that is a bit odd, since there's not really an action for it to be part of (a lot of soulmeld/feat benefits are passive, AC bonuses and the like). However, I would still say that the rule for psionic feats overrides the rule for supernatural abilities, being a bit more specific, and expending focus is not an action in itself. It could be part of casting the spell that you use Midnight Metamagic on, perhaps?

I do agree that this combo should be mentioned more often. What's holding it back is, perhaps, what InvisibleBison mentioned: essentia capacity is quite low early on, and you need to put quite a few pieces together: psionic focus, the metamagic feats you're using, the feats for the combo itself, expanded capacity, metamagic reduction, the works. It basically takes all your feats to get the whole thing running at a reasonable level.

For example, unlimited Persistomancy at level 12 requires eight feats: Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Midnight Metamagic, Psicarnum Infusion, Wild Talent, Practical Metamagic, Easy Metamagic, and Improved Essentia Capacity. Of course, you can replace a few of these with class levels, so a build along the lines of incarnate 4/psychic warrior 1/ur-priest 7 "only" needs six feats (plus the psywar bonus feat). A silverbrow human can just about do that without flaws, so it's not that crazy, but it does limit you to Ur-Priest (or losing a lot of casting). Persistomancy is so powerful that it's practically always worth it, but you really are burning a lot of feats on this.

Free Twinning at ECL 12 also requires a lot of feats, seven in this case: any metamagic feat, Twin Spell, Midnight Metamagic, Psicarnum Infusion, Wild Talent, Improved Essentia Capacity or Practical Metamagic, and Psionic Meditation. The latter is required to regain focus as a move action, which is really helpful if you want to use Psicarnum Infusion in combat (I assume you want to Twin blasting spells several times per encounter). Expanding your focus infrastructure allows you to nova a bit more (especially with arcane spellsurge), but that does requires more feats (Psicrystal Affinity and Psicrystal Containment).

You could modify the second example to get free Empower + Maximize, as long as your essentia capacity equals the total cost of those feats together. Midnight Metamagic isn't clear on whether you can enhance a single spell with multiple metamagic feats (multiple spells with different feats is allowed). I think the feat works a little more cleanly if you do allow it (in that selecting one feat+spell pairing has no influence on other feat+spell pairings), but it's a question for the table, I suppose.

Overall, a really cool combo, but one requiring serious investment. Something to build a character around, not a loose feat to pick up with your last slot.


*Either Improved Essentia Capacity or Easy Metamagic. Dropping Easy Metamagic gets rid of the one bit of Dragon Magazine content, so that potentially makes the combo suitable for source-restricted tables (or Iron Chef).

[newguydude1]

For example, unlimited Persistomancy at level 12 requires eight feats: Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Midnight Metamagic, Psicarnum Infusion, Wild Talent, Practical Metamagic, Easy Metamagic, and Improved Essentia Capacity.

this is wrong.


Each spell to be affected requires the investment of a number of essentia equal to the normal spell level adjustment required by the metamagic feat

by raw you cant use other metamagic reducers with midnight metamagic.

[ExLibrisMortis]

this is wrong.



by raw you cant use other metamagic reducers with midnight metamagic.
That depends on whether you interpret "normal" to be an absolute reference to the cost of the metamagic feat as laid out in its description, or a relative reference to the situation before the application of Midnight Metamagic. I tend to interpret all references to "normal" as being relative to the non-feat situation, i.e. the second. After all, to a character with Practical Metamagic (Persistent Spell), the normal cost for Persistent Spell is +5, and it would take an exceptional situation to make it cost +6 (i.e. the feat were somehow suppressed, or metamagic was more expensive on the plane they were on).

[newguydude1]

That depends on whether you interpret "normal" to be an absolute reference to the cost of the metamagic feat as laid out in its description, or a relative reference to the situation before the application of Midnight Metamagic. I tend to interpret all references to "normal" as being relative to the non-feat situation, i.e. the second. After all, to a character with Practical Metamagic (Persistent Spell), the normal cost for Persistent Spell is +5, and it would take an exceptional situation to make it cost +6 (i.e. the feat were somehow suppressed, or metamagic was more expensive on the plane they were on).

for stacking metamagic yeah, like the normal duration of a persistent divine favor is 24 hours. but this isnt order of operations of metamagic. there isnt an "easy practical metamagic school focus divine favor".

in fact all of these metamagic reducers are applied at the moment of start of casting. where as midnight metamagic is at the start of the day, nonspontaneously.

[ExLibrisMortis]

for stacking metamagic yeah, like the normal duration of a persistent divine favor is 24 hours. but this isnt order of operations of metamagic. there isnt an "easy practical metamagic school focus divine favor".

in fact all of these metamagic reducers are applied at the moment of start of casting. where as midnight metamagic is at the start of the day, nonspontaneously.
I'm not sure what you mean here. The in-universe timing of an ability isn't relevant to order of application or the interpretation of "normal spell level adjustment".

[newguydude1]

I'm not sure what you mean here. The in-universe timing of an ability isn't relevant to order of application or the interpretation of "normal spell level adjustment".

midnight metamagic - invested when your not casting a spell
practical metamagic - applied when you apply a metamagic to a spell being spontaneously

you cant apply practical metamagic when your choosing spells for midnight metamagic. because your not casting anything.
you cant apply midnight metamagic when your casting practical metamagic.

the two can never work together.

[ExLibrisMortis]

midnight metamagic - invested when your not casting a spell
practical metamagic - applied when you apply a metamagic to a spell being spontaneously

you cant apply practical metamagic when your choosing spells for midnight metamagic. because your not casting anything.
you cant apply midnight metamagic when your casting practical metamagic.

the two can never work together.
Right, I see what you mean.

When using Midnight Metamagic + Practical Metamagic, you declare the investing (or the use of Psycarnum Infusion), and then have to work out what the feat accomplishes (and for what essentia cost). You are saying that Practical Metamagic does not apply here, since it specifies "when applying the chosen metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell", and you are not doing that at that moment (you're investing essentia or using Psycarnum Infusion). Only when you are actually casting the spell--using Midnight Metamagic or not--does Practical Metamagic apply, leading to the funny consequence that you have one more essentia invested than the cost of applying the feat at that time (which doesn't matter at all, it's just funny to note).

Now, in my opinion, the "normal" cost of applying a metamagic feat with Practical Metamagic applied to it is still the cost after Practical Metamagic is applied, since the "normal" cost of applying it is the cost applied when casting a spell (as opposed to when using Divine Metamagic or something else), which automatically includes Practical Metamagic. In a sense, Midnight Metamagic can "look up" the cost of applying a metamagic feat for a specific character, once all abilities are applied. Of course, for an Ultimate Magus (say), that would mean Midnight Metamagic would be cheaper on a prepared spell because the cost was reduced for a spontaneous spell, but that's not particularly strange. It reminds me of using a CL 20 consumptive field (cast as cleric spell) to boost the CL of one's first-level wizard casting. A first-level wizard can't get +10 CL out of consumptive field (or cast it at all, for that matter), but the boost still applies.

Even if you don't allow that reading, I don't think there's a problem. Midnight Metamagic says: "Once per day, you can invest essentia into this feat and choose one or more spells that you know (and have prepared, if you prepare spells) to apply the effect of a metamagic feat that you know [...] The next time you cast that spell, the spell gains the effect of that metamagic feat". Note that Midnight Metamagic explicitly says that it is applying the metamagic feat as part of the investing, and the spell merely "gains the effect" when cast. So Practical Metamagic does apply at the critical point of investment, not at the time of casting. It does lead to the funny consequence that you have a metamagic feat applied to a spontaneous spell you haven't cast yet, but I can live with that.

[Darg]

When applying the chosen metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell

As you said, you wouldn't be applying practical metamagic on a spontaneously cast spell. This contradicts the benefit text of practical metamagic. Personally, I think it's a little petty to not allow it since PI + MM combo is allowed already. Then again RAW is always petty and only ever helpful when you can find something to point out that the DM is being pettier.

[ExLibrisMortis]

As you said, you wouldn't be applying practical metamagic on a spontaneously cast spell. This contradicts the benefit text of practical metamagic. Personally, I think it's a little petty to not allow it since PI + MM combo is allowed already. Then again RAW is always petty and only ever helpful when you can find something to point out that the DM is being pettier.
Hmm, point. In that case, you need to use the reading that "normal" is relative (functioning like the "normal" text that some feats have), or establish a ruling/interpretation/houserule with the DM to that effect. I absolutely agree with you; "petty" is exactly the word for not allowing this to work, but RAW doesn't care about out feelings :smalltongue:.

Interestingly, Easy Metamagic has the same problem ("when preparing or casting a spell modified by that feat").
Improved Metamagic (Incantatrix 10) does not have this problem ("when she uses a metamagic feat").
Cloak of Mysteries (Dweomerkeeper 10) doesn't have this problem either ("whenever applying a metamagic feat").
Adroit Casting (Halruaan Elder 1, 4, 7, 10) sort of has it ("The cost in increased level of spell slots to use that metamagic feat is now permanently reduced by one level"). Might not affect alternate costs. Then again, other costs are based on the increased spell slot cost, so Adroit Casting should carry over.


Can I just say I hate the stupid roundabout ways of phrasing used? Would it really have hurt them to (1) settle on a standard phrasing, (2) properly define "metamagic cost" in general, and (3) phrase all these abilities as "Benefit: The metamagic cost for one feat of your choice is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1". Saves everyone a lot of headaches.

[Darg]

I feel like I wish they released supplements that had author commentary on the choices they made or the intent behind how they designed something. They do it with movies, I'd think it would be easier with written content.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I feel like I wish they released supplements that had author commentary on the choices they made or the intent behind how they designed something. They do it with movies, I'd think it would be easier with written content.
Absolutely agreed, that would be so nice. I guess dev blogs weren't standard yet at the time, but there could've been some design principles in the DMG, for homebrewing purposes if nothing else, and then individual splatbooks could reference those and talk about how the principles influenced the current splatbook.

[illyahr]

The general rules on psionic feats state that expending your psionic focus is not an action; it is part of the action that the psionic feat you're using applies to. In the case of Psycarnum Infusion, that is a bit odd, since there's not really an action for it to be part of (a lot of soulmeld/feat benefits are passive, AC bonuses and the like). However, I would still say that the rule for psionic feats overrides the rule for supernatural abilities, being a bit more specific, and expending focus is not an action in itself. It could be part of casting the spell that you use Midnight Metamagic on, perhaps?[/SIZE]

MoI states that investing essentia is a free action, so expending psionic focus to "invest" in Psycarnum Infusion is a free action. At least as far as my knowledge goes.