anyway for a sorcerer to increase ambrosia production without setting up a farm?

[newguydude1]

so wizards have uncanny forethought. that jacks up the amount of distilled joys they can cast per day.

sorcerers... all they got is twin spell. not good.

the only solution i thought of is get it as an sla to make it a standard action but its not easy.
archmage has too much a feat tax, and spell slot tax, and comes online super late in the game. like level 20 late.
spellstitched undead has its share of problems too. mainly its really hard to become an undead by yourself, and its really hard to get a high wisdom score.
innate spell is achieved at not-low epic. you need to grab improved spell capacity twice, and then innate spell, which means you need to be level 27 before you can get distilled joy as a sla. i consider low epic to be level 24 at most.

i also thought of energy transformation field but 250xp cost, trying to make a scroll and achieve 250xp cost with ambrosia takes way too long. so thats a no go either.


so is there anything else? ive been trying to build a sorcerer instead of a wizard, and this is like the last obstacle in my way.


regarding sla casting time, the d20srd is wrong. so dont use it. use rule compendium which directly says
1. all slas are a standard action unless otherwise noted.
2. if the spell the sla replicates has a casting time shorter than standard action, then it takes that action to cast instead.
the second point shows that the original casting time of the spell its replicating is not "otherwise noted", and there are a plethora of monsters using slas as a standard action in combat regardless of their original casting time. mirror mephit for example uses simulacrum on a pc in a sample encounter as a standard action instead of a 12 hour casting time.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

As with so many other tricks, this is made easy with proper utilization of the acorn of far travel spell (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?546179-Un-Hallow-that-Stacks).

Add that and (un)hallow to your spells known or use some spell-trigger items and you should be good to go.

[noob]

I believe there is a metamagic called rapid spell that can lower down the casting time of that spell to an hour.
Combine that with twinned and repeating spell and you can get 72 of the substance in a day before epic levels.

[newguydude1]

I believe there is a metamagic called rapid spell that can lower down the casting time of that spell to an hour.
Combine that with twinned and repeating spell and you can get 72 of the substance in a day before epic levels.

no, the spell casting time is measured in days not hours. if only it was 24 hours instead of 1 day...

[Gruftzwerg]

You could just buy/craft (eternal) wands to solve your problem.

May I ask for what purpose you want the ambrosia? If it is for crafting I would maybe go for other options.

[newguydude1]

You could just buy/craft (eternal) wands to solve your problem.

May I ask for what purpose you want the ambrosia? If it is for crafting I would maybe go for other options.

i try to make 100% of my characters use 0 wealth. for fun, for challenge, and to "balance" my otherwise super high powered character. trying to make my shtick work with sorcerer instead of wizard is also another way of optimizing downward.

ambrosia is to create scrolls of simulacrum free. cooperative crafting with mirror mephit gets rid of simulacrums cost but i still need 280-ish xp for a scroll of cl40 simulacrum.

[noob]

i try to make 100% of my characters use 0 wealth. for fun, for challenge, and to "balance" my otherwise super high powered character. trying to make my shtick work with sorcerer instead of wizard is also another way of optimizing downward.

ambrosia is to create scrolls of simulacrum free. cooperative crafting with mirror mephit gets rid of simulacrums cost but i still need 280-ish xp for a scroll of cl40 simulacrum.

If you use mirror mephits just copy yourself.

[newguydude1]

If you use mirror mephits just copy yourself.

1 simulacrum limit, cause obvious reasons. its not a house rule per say but my dm told me to make up a roleplay reason why my character wouldnt have more than 1 simulacrum if i wanted to use mirror mephits.

[noob]

1 simulacrum limit, cause obvious reasons. its not a house rule per say but my dm told me to make up a roleplay reason why my character wouldnt have more than 1 simulacrum if i wanted to use mirror mephits.

so the scrolls are for quick simulacrum replacement?

[newguydude1]

so the scrolls are for quick simulacrum replacement?

no.

mirror mephit simulacrum is cl 8.
suffer the flesh +4
adept spirit +1
consumptive field +4
greater consumptive field +4
=cl21 total. so my mirror mephit can create 21hd creatures at level 16 after 4 levels of wyrm wizard. unfortunately there is nothing that boosts this further, not even epic spells, so i got no epic level strategy.

at level 16 on my sorcerer, same buffts
cl 16 + 4 + 1 + 8 + 8 = cl37
much, much higher than my mirror mephit.

if you know of a way to boost my mirror mephits cl even higher than 21 then i may not need ambrosia anymore.

edit: i dont like ice assassin because it cant be healed.

[Gruftzwerg]

i try to make 100% of my characters use 0 wealth. for fun, for challenge, and to "balance" my otherwise super high powered character. trying to make my shtick work with sorcerer instead of wizard is also another way of optimizing downward.

ambrosia is to create scrolls of simulacrum free. cooperative crafting with mirror mephit gets rid of simulacrums cost but i still need 280-ish xp for a scroll of cl40 simulacrum.

Another option is, if you character is evil (?), you can make "Sacrifices" to earn Dark Craft XP. All you need to do is a Religion DC 20+ roll and you earn 5 times the DC as Dark Craft XP. That are 100 Dark Craft XP for a (minimum) DC 20 roll. You can do a sacrifice each day, so even without extreme Knowledge Religion boost, you could get the XP within ~ 3days. Or if you manage a DC 56 roll, you would get the entire 280xp in a single go. Remember that others may use "Aid another" for a stacking untyped +2 bonus on your skillroll. Use your similacrum/ice assassin army to aid your Knowledge Religion roll.

That being said, if you like character builds who focus on this kind of things, have a look at my craftlock incarnation of Orochimaru (see signature). He abuses "Sacrifices" to the max with his Ice Assassin/Symbiont Army (aka as Curse Marks).

[newguydude1]

Another option is, if you character is evil (?), you can make "Sacrifices" to earn Dark Craft XP. All you need to do is a Religion DC 20+ roll and you earn 5 times the DC as Dark Craft XP. That are 100 Dark Craft XP for a (minimum) DC 20 roll. You can do a sacrifice each day, so even without extreme Knowledge Religion boost, you could get the XP within ~ 3days. Or if you manage a DC 56 roll, you would get the entire 280xp in a single go. Remember that others may use "Aid another" for a stacking untyped +2 bonus on your skillroll. Use your similacrum/ice assassin army to aid your Knowledge Religion roll.

That being said, if you like character builds who focus on this kind of things, have a look at my craftlock incarnation of Orochimaru (see signature). He abuses "Sacrifices" to the max with his Ice Assassin/Symbiont Army (aka as Curse Marks).

i know about the sacrifice rules, and while i may use evil spells and spawn and kill evil creatures to fuel said evil spells, i draw the line at sacrificing fox's cunning boosted goats to higher evil powers.

its why im also using ambrosia instead of liquid pain.

[Saintheart]

Buy or get a Runecaster to craft two permanent runes: one of Elation, one of Distilled Joy. Costs shouldn't be that great since they're both low-level(ish) spells. Either ask people to touch the Elation rune and then the Distilled Joy rune, or double the cost to set them up as 'trigger when read or passed' and just wander around the nearest town. Elation instills great joy in the target, Distilled Joy pulls that out and makes ambrosia out of it. The runes remove the 1 day casting time for Distilled Joy and cut it down to a standard action. Assuming you can find someone new to plink the spells at every minute, that's about 720 XP for 6 hours of doing Pharrell Williams to people.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

1 simulacrum limit, cause obvious reasons. its not a house rule per say but my dm told me to make up a roleplay reason why my character wouldnt have more than 1 simulacrum if i wanted to use mirror mephits."Because he wants them."

There.

Also, how about making potions? Distilled joy is a valid spell for potion-making, and the quick potion spell only takes 1 minute to turn distilled joy into a potion.

[newguydude1]

"Because he wants them."

There.

Also, how about making potions? Distilled joy is a valid spell for potion-making, and the quick potion spell only takes 1 minute to turn distilled joy into a potion.

you still need the 1day of casting to cast a spell into the quick potion no?


Buy or get a Runecaster to craft two permanent runes: one of Elation, one of Distilled Joy. Costs shouldn't be that great since they're both low-level(ish) spells. Either ask people to touch the Elation rune and then the Distilled Joy rune, or double the cost to set them up as 'trigger when read or passed' and just wander around the nearest town. Elation instills great joy in the target, Distilled Joy pulls that out and makes ambrosia out of it. The runes remove the 1 day casting time for Distilled Joy and cut it down to a standard action. Assuming you can find someone new to plink the spells at every minute, that's about 720 XP for 6 hours of doing Pharrell Williams to people.

trying to do this without outside help. ill look into runecaster again.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

you still need the 1day of casting to cast a spell into the quick potion no?The quick potion spell says that the spell you imbue into the potion is cast in the round following the quick potion spell. Not "started being cast."

[newguydude1]

The quick potion spell says that the spell you imbue into the potion is cast in the round following the quick potion spell. Not "started being cast."

it says it can cast, not is cast. so you can cast a spell into the potion, which requires casting time. all the spell does is turn a flask of water into a spell storing item. you still need to cast a spell into there.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Too bad you're not playing a psion or a StP erudite. Linked Power could do it PDQ.

[newguydude1]

no one mentioned shadow miracles. shame on all of you.

edit: not that i can use it.

[noob]

If you are doing shadow miracles the amount of cheese is high enough to turn the game in some sort of full cheese cheese with cheese.
(cast all those spell at any moment: the polyvalence and the fact you are probably using level 1 spell slots to do that is just silly)

[newguydude1]

If you are doing shadow miracles the amount of cheese is high enough to turn the game in some sort of full cheese cheese with cheese.
(cast all those spell at any moment: the polyvalence and the fact you are probably using level 1 spell slots to do that is just silly)

shadow miracles isnt cheese. because normal miracles isnt cheese. and you need to invest a lot to get the miracle as a wizard spell. so much that i cant use it.

[noob]

shadow miracles isnt cheese. because normal miracles isnt cheese. and you need to invest a lot to get the miracle as a wizard spell. so much that i cant use it.

I believe you had only to take a feat and have 19 wisdom(just get some wisdom boosts).
Then since you need a tenth level spell and to be a shadowcraft gnome or something to cast shadow miracle you need to start opening up metamagic sheanighans at which point you can start to make all your level 1 silent images be tenth level spell and cast shadow miracle all day.
And regular miracles are borderline cheese if you spam them all day because your god would probably end up being angry at you after the tenth miracle you cast in a single day.(and I consider miracle is one of the strongest dnd spells and a close second with spells like gate, shapechange and the like)

[Maat Mons]

How about the Player's Guide to Faerun version of the Innate Spell feat? It's non-epic, and uses a spell slot of only the spell's normal level, so you can get it for Distilled Joy by 6th level. But it only lets you use the spell-like ability 3/day, not at will.

[newguydude1]

How about the Player's Guide to Faerun version of the Innate Spell feat? It's non-epic, and uses a spell slot of only the spell's normal level, so you can get it for Distilled Joy by 6th level. But it only lets you use the spell-like ability 3/day, not at will.

how does that work? can you pick and choose which 3.5 version of the feat your allowed to use?


I believe you had only to take a feat and have 19 wisdom(just get some wisdom boosts).
Then since you need a tenth level spell and to be a shadowcraft gnome or something to cast shadow miracle you need to start opening up metamagic sheanighans at which point you can start to make all your level 1 silent images be tenth level spell and cast shadow miracle all day.
And regular miracles are borderline cheese if you spam them all day because your god would probably end up being angry at you after the tenth miracle you cast in a single day.(and I consider miracle is one of the strongest dnd spells and a close second with spells like gate, shapechange and the like)

shadow miracle doesnt use gods just like shadow summon doesnt use real creatures.
your describing incantatrix metamagic reducing cheese inline with mailman. shadow miracle isnt broken, metamagic reduction stacking is.

and miracle isnt even close to "strongest spells". a no homebrew miracle (as in no greater effects unless somewhere raw says so) is nowhere near gate. even savage species race changing stuff calls wish out only, no miracle. by raw you cant use miracle to change your race.

free miracle is abusable yeah, but its much less abusable than free wishes via dweomerkeeper. and 100% of dweomerkeepers are expected to get wish so thats normal op of a use-as-is prc.

[noob]

shadow miracle doesnt use gods just like shadow summon doesnt use real creatures.
your describing incantatrix metamagic reducing cheese inline with mailman. shadow miracle isnt broken, metamagic reduction stacking is.

and miracle isnt even close to "strongest spells". a no homebrew miracle (as in no greater effects unless somewhere raw says so) is nowhere near gate. even savage species race changing stuff calls wish out only, no miracle. by raw you cant use miracle to change your race.

free miracle is abusable yeah, but its much less abusable than free wishes via dweomerkeeper. and 100% of dweomerkeepers are expected to get wish so thats normal op of a use-as-is prc.

I talked about regular miracle when I told about gods being angered.

Also it is not incantatrixe it is rather things like taking arcane thesis on silent image and the varied stuff like that which are barely extra steps over what is needed to reach tenth level spells(just a few more feats).
Also can you tell me a spell stronger than miracle that is not gate, wish, ice assasin, shapechange and disjunction.(the effects of time stop can be obtained with enough celerities from miracles) I told it was second to the classics not in first place.

Free wish is considered infinite TO: just wish for a hat of infinite all the spells and all the stuff you ever want so comparing things with free wish is just proving it is extreme cheese.

Just because the cheese made of cheese of shadow miracle is the thousandth candidate in terms of cheesiness does not means it would be handleable by a gm who said "please do not use multiple simulacrum"
(yes you can make infinite armies, shapechange into silly things to get free wishes, gate in a monster that gates in a monster and so on, gain omnipotence and unlimited everything in hundreds of ways going from bob archmage spam to alter shape abuse or swarm hivemind abuses(and many others) that are all way more cheesy and do things like being a planar sheepherd of the far realms(which prompts the gm to say "why" then roll a sanity check) but it does not makes shadow miracle be less absurd amounts of cheese)

[newguydude1]

Free wish is considered infinite TO: just wish for a hat of infinite all the spells and all the stuff you ever want so comparing things with free wish is just proving it is extreme cheese.

how is it cheese when throughout all of d&d free wishes are mentioned multiple times. ur priest says a player can steal a pit fiends wish. savage species says a creature with wish as a sla is a mere +3 la. wish loops is cheese.


Also can you tell me a spell stronger than miracle that is not gate, wish, ice assasin, shapechange and disjunction.(the effects of time stop can be obtained with enough celerities from miracles) I told it was second to the classics not in first place.

celerity line of spells. cant use with miracle cause of casting time.
planar binding line of spells. miracle cant replicate greater planar binding.
mindrape
polymorph any object
sanctify the wicked if your a good guy cause its mindrape except for good alignment characters
true resurrection because if you find a way around the material cost its infinite free respawn

miracle is versatile but it has no power. i never ever i mean ever encounter it in all of my optimizing shenanigan stuff. and right now its mentioned in this thread for sorcerer, not wizard.

oh and arcane disciple to add miracle to your spell list is the cheese. cause all other methods like recaster and wyrm wizard doesnt let you get it that early.

[noob]

how is it cheese when throughout all of d&d free wishes are mentioned multiple times. ur priest says a player can steal a pit fiends wish. savage species says a creature with wish as a sla is a mere +3 la. wish loops is cheese.



celerity line of spells. cant use with miracle cause of casting time.
planar binding line of spells. miracle cant replicate greater planar binding.
mindrape
polymorph any object
sanctify the wicked if your a good guy cause its mindrape except for good alignment characters
true resurrection because if you find a way around the material cost its infinite free respawn

miracle is versatile but it has no power. i never ever i mean ever encounter it in all of my optimizing shenanigan stuff. and right now its mentioned in this thread for sorcerer, not wizard.

oh and arcane disciple to add miracle to your spell list is the cheese. cause all other methods like recaster and wyrm wizard doesnt let you get it that early.
Just because the wotc staff did not realise how broken things were does not means they are less broken.
Ur priest is usually considered cheese.
If they did attribute the right LA to things then fighters would get negative LA.
Free wish is not just broken if you do a loop you can also directly give yourself an infinitely powerful magical item directly with the magical item creation clause since you do not pay the cost(and it is a direct straightforward way of using wish: The number of adventurers that would not wish for a magical item is low).

You can use twinned miracle for celerity if you are willing to use a higher level slot.
Planar ally can be abused comparably to planar binding if you do it properly.
Mindrape provides stuff that can be simulated with enough hypnosis therapy(change behaviour) and modify memory(edit the memories) and simulacrum(for the copied memory).
Sanctify the wicked is unneeded when you can make a redeemery(just use skill checks and reliably trap them) or hypnosis therapy.
Polymorph any object is a cleric spell if you have a domain with it so you can miracle duplicate it.

True resurrection is actually a great spell I forgot that also does not enter the cheese category. (did your sorcerer take final strike or some other way to guarantee their annihilation on death? else if your body exists but that you do not have it close you can not be true resurrected which is an obscure detail people often forgets)

[newguydude1]

You can use twinned miracle for celerity if you are willing to use a higher level slot.
how does that get you immediate casting time


Planar ally can be abused comparably to planar binding if you do it properly.
no its not.
it has xp cost per use
you need to pay the guy
and most importantly, the dm chooses the monster. 100% of the time.
and by raw if you follow a deity your restricted to absolute crap monsters only.

there is absolutely no way planar ally comes anywhere close to planar binding.


Mindrape provides stuff that can be simulated with enough hypnosis therapy(change behaviour) and modify memory(edit the memories) and simulacrum(for the copied memory).

no, modify memory is permanent duration. dispellable. mindrape is instantaneous. you cannot even hope to compare a permanent duration with an instantaneous one.


Sanctify the wicked is unneeded when you can make a redeemery(just use skill checks and reliably trap them) or hypnosis therapy.

mindrape without the mind-affecting tag can be replicated by... hypnosis therapy?


Polymorph any object is a cleric spell if you have a domain with it so you can miracle duplicate it.

no its not. domain spells =/= cleric spells. theyre domain spells. you use domain spell slots. theyre part of a domain spell list not cleric.

[noob]

how does that get you immediate casting time


no its not.
it has xp cost per use
you need to pay the guy
and most importantly, the dm chooses the monster. 100% of the time.
and by raw if you follow a deity your restricted to absolute crap monsters only.

there is absolutely no way planar ally comes anywhere close to planar binding.



no, modify memory is permanent duration. dispellable. mindrape is instantaneous. you cannot even hope to compare a permanent duration with an instantaneous one.



mindrape without the mind-affecting tag can be replicated by... hypnosis therapy?



no its not. domain spells =/= cleric spells. theyre domain spells. you use domain spell slots. theyre part of a domain spell list not cleric.



i found a solution i can use.
retrain in domain access sorcerer for miracle. unlike arcane disciple i dont need to worship no deity.
written in miracle

Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains).
So you can copy PAO if you have the domain with PAO which is what I wrote.


If you capture someone you can then remove their immunity to mind affecting through dispelling and destroying all their stuff that gives it, making them lose their levels(so that they lose class features granting it) and polymorphing them(so that they lose things coming from their specie or type that makes them immune).
Once you did you can do hypnosis therapy.
(If they have the shape-changer sub-type you also need to prevent them from taking standard actions if they are normally immune unless their base type is undead in which case there is a spell that can specifically make them vulnerable)

[newguydude1]

i got it!!!!!!!!!!

planetar simualcrum.
or some other divine caster simulacrum. with lots of miracle castings!!!!

yes! wow! finally!

this thread shows how a true piece of art gets created. go down twenty blind alleys and one of the blind alleys blocks up into a path to the future!!!

solar is a 20th level cleric, but i dont want to use him unless i absolutely have to because, you know, hes a free wish guy.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

i got it!!!!!!!!!!

planetar simualcrum.
or some other divine caster simulacrum. with lots of miracle castings!!!!

yes! wow! finally!

this thread shows how a true piece of art gets created. go down twenty blind alleys and one of the blind alleys blocks up into a path to the future!!!

solar is a 20th level cleric, but i dont want to use him unless i absolutely have to because, you know, hes a free wish guy.Djinn simulacrums are cheaper.

You can also planar bind them easier, too.

[newguydude1]

Djinn simulacrums are cheaper.

You can also planar bind them easier, too.

i said i didnt want to use solar unless i absolutely have to because of the free wish.

[NigelWalmsley]

Simulacrum gets you something with "the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities" of a creature with half the HD of the target. It's not at all clear to me that you can expect to get full casting value out of Planetar Simulacra.

[newguydude1]

Simulacrum gets you something with "the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities" of a creature with half the HD of the target. It's not at all clear to me that you can expect to get full casting value out of Planetar Simulacra.

im making advanced creatures so that when cut in half its identical to the stat block.



i found an evil way
KOCRACHON
from bovd. it has liquid pain as an at will sla.

i guess this is as good as it gets.

edit: morality undone spell can be used to use liquid pain as a nonevil caster.

[gogogome]

Shadow Miracles are terrible.

Whatever effect you produce with Miracle, it will most likely fall under "nondamaging effects", at which point if your opponent succeeds a will save, your spell does nothing.

Simulacrum replicated by Shadow Miracle? A successful will save will prevent the simulacrum from doing any damage, at all, to the disbeliever.

[noob]

Shadow Miracles are terrible.

Whatever effect you produce with Miracle, it will most likely fall under "nondamaging effects", at which point if your opponent succeeds a will save, your spell does nothing.

Simulacrum replicated by Shadow Miracle? A successful will save will prevent the simulacrum from doing any damage, at all, to the disbeliever.

Your interpretation makes shadow miracle stronger.
Now instead of calling a real planar ally you make an illusory creature so you created a creature instead of merely summoning one.
So the illusory planar ally knows they exists only thanks to you.
Also for non damaging effects the odds of them affecting on a successful save is 100+%


The altered spell functions identically to the shadow conjuration or shadow evocation spell, except that the spell's strength equals 10% per level of the figment spell used
in shadowcraft mage

and in shadow evocation

If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is one-fifth as strong (if applicable) or only 20% likely to occur.
the 20% is assumed to be the spell strength since everywhere where they talk about damage or effects or hp they randomly say 20% or one-fifth.
so making your save would either make the non damaging effect be 100+% as strong or 100%+ as likely to occur.

So non damaging effects are not weakened at all.

[gogogome]

Your interpretation makes shadow miracle stronger.
Now instead of calling a real planar ally you make an illusory creature so you created a creature instead of merely summoning one.
So the illusory planar ally knows they exists only thanks to you.
Also for non damaging effects the odds of them affecting on a successful save is 100+%


in shadowcraft mage

and in shadow evocation

the 20% is assumed to be the spell strength since everywhere where they talk about damage or effects or hp they randomly say 20% or one-fifth.
so making your save would either make the non damaging effect be 100+% as strong or 100%+ as likely to occur.

So non damaging effects are not weakened at all.

Incorrect


Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect.

Planar Ally (if it even creates shadow creatures instead of calling real creatures) and Simulacrum are nondamaging effects. Therefore no matter how much you boost your shadow %, a simple will save will render your created creatures harmless.

[noob]

Incorrect



Planar Ally (if it even creates shadow creatures instead of calling real creatures) and Simulacrum are nondamaging effects. Therefore no matter how much you boost your shadow %, a simple will save will render your created creatures harmless.

I can use simulacrum as an attack by doing it 50 foot above someone.
In which case it is an attack and so the line about attacks applies.
Then once it was an attack it can now deal its effects other than damage at a 100% rate.

[gogogome]

I can definitively use simulacrum as an attack by doing it 50 foot above someone.
In which case it is an attack and so the line about attacks applies.
Then once it was an attack it can now deal its effects other than damage at a 100% rate.

Make a new thread and convince others people that creating a simulacrum in midair above someone turns it into a damage spell.

[noob]

Make a new thread and convince others people that creating a simulacrum in midair above someone turns it into a damage spell.

There is alternative ways to make it count as an attack: print out your own statblock as if it was a monster stat block and all your spells are attacks(they are in the special attacks section)
That or get a modifier to make it target a creature and any spell that targets creatures that are opponents and are not meant to target allies is an attack according to invisibility.
There is a lot of precedents about the rules being nonsense and a spell that contradicts itself is not the first instance of that.

[gogogome]

There is alternative ways to make it count as an attack: print out your own statblock as if it was a monster stat block and all your spells are attacks(they are in the special attacks section)
That or get a modifier to make it target a creature and any spell that targets creatures that are opponents and are not meant to target allies is an attack according to invisibility.
There is a lot of precedents about the rules being nonsense and a spell that contradicts itself is not the first instance of that.

How does any of that turn Miracle replicating simulacrum into a damaging effect?

[noob]

How does any of that turn Miracle replicating simulacrum into a damaging effect?
shadow evocation says that attacks that does things other than damage have an effect:

If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is one-fifth as strong (if applicable) or only 20% likely to occur.
So the spell is contradicting itself and there is multiple ways to judge the effect.

By the way nothing says that miracle while duplicating a spell is the duplicated spell and you assumed that when miracle duplicated a spell it was the duplicated spell itself.(which is a valid interpretation but not the only valid one)
While it is also a legitimate interpretation that miracle creates a new spell and that someone could counter you either by countering the miracle or by countering the new spell created by the miracle.

[gogogome]

shadow evocation says that attacks that does things other than damage have an effect:

So the spell is contradicting itself and there is multiple ways to judge the effect.

By the way nothing says that miracle while duplicating a spell is the duplicated spell and you assumed that when miracle duplicated a spell it was the duplicated spell itself.(which does not make more sense than other interpretations)
While it is also a legitimate interpretation that miracle creates a new spell and that someone could counter you either by countering the miracle or by countering the new spell created by the miracle.


Spells that deal damage have normal effects unless an affected creature succeeds on a Will save.

Conveniently ignoring the first part of the paragraph...
Your quote only applies to spells that deal damage. Spells that dont go to the second paragraph. Simulacrum is not a spell that deals damage, so we go to the next paragraph: "Nondamaging effects"

[noob]

Conveniently ignoring the first part of the paragraph...
Your quote only applies to spells that deal damage. Spells that dont go to the second paragraph. Simulacrum is not a spell that deals damage, so we go to the next paragraph: "Nondamaging effects"

It is not because it is not in the same sentence and it is not explicitly said that the paragraph was about damaging spells also in english "disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage" can suggest it talks about attacks with no damage(and there is at least one precedent even outside of spells of attacks that deals no damage such as grappling attacks).
You are doing one interpretation and it is not the only one.
There is also the following problem:

Shadow Illusion (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a shadowcraft mage is able to infuse some of her figments (see the list below) with material from the Plane of Shadow, making them partially real. The subschool of these spells changes from figment to shadow. A shadowcraft mage can use the altered spell to mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell at least one level lower than the illusion spell. The altered spell functions identically to the shadow conjuration or shadow evocation spell, except that the spell's strength equals 10% per level of the figment spell used. For example, a shadowcraft mage who uses silent image to create an acid splash would deal 10% of the normal damage to a creature that succeeds on its Will save to disbelieve the shadow. If she used programmed image to mimic summon monster V, the creature would have 60% of the hit points of a normal creature of its kind, and its damage would be 60% normal against a creature that succeeds on its Will save to disbelieve. A shadowcraft mage can apply shadow illusion to any of the following figment spells: silent image, minor image, major image, persistent image, and programmed image.
It is not clear that evocation spells cast that way are necessarily simulated by shadow evocation: they might also follow shadow conjuration rules and reciprocally.

[gogogome]

It is not because it is not in the same sentence and it is not explicitly said that the paragraph was about damaging spells also in english "disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage" can suggest it talks about attacks with no damage(and there is at least one precedent even outside of spells of attacks that deals no damage such as grappling attacks).
You are doing one interpretation and it is not the only one.

So in my interpretation we have two categories
Spells that deal damage.
Spells that dont deal damage.

All spells in the entire game fit into these categories.

You on the other hand, is saying spells that dont deal damage, but is classified as an "attack", deal with the rules under "spells that deal damage", and then say that every single spell effect in the game can be classified as an "attack" if you look at it just the right way, therefore the second paragraph: "Spells that dont deal damage" is never invoked, so we ignore that entire paragraph in its entirety and only use the first paragraph.

[newguydude1]

let me just ask a question.

if we look at shadow conjuration, shadow creatures dont need to do spell resistance checks to deal damage with their natural weapon right?
so the "effect" is the creation of the creature. the creature itself is not a nondamaging effect, its the result of a nondamaging effect.

so wouldnt that mean shadow miracle making a simulacrum is a normal creature?

[gogogome]

if we look at shadow conjuration, shadow creatures dont need to do spell resistance checks to deal damage with their natural weapon right?

This is incorrect. Shadow creatures do need to do spell resistance checks to deal damage with their natural weapon.

Summon Monster spells are explicitly Spell Resistance:No. Change that to Spell Resistance:Yes and everything the summoned creatures do need a spell resistance check.