Optimizing a muscle wizard?

[ftafp]

https://1d4chan.org/images/e/e4/Muscle_wizard.jpg

People have joked for years about the "muscle wizard", a gish character whose weapon of choice was his fists, but because of 5e's character building limitations it's always been sub optimal. However, with the additions in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, most notably the Fighter's Unarmed Fighting Style and the Armorer's Thunder Gauntlets, building an actual muscle-wizard is seeming a lot more possible. The question now is how do we optimize it, and how do we make a muscle wizard that can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with a sorcadin?

[heavyfuel]

No reason you can't just go Str based bladesinger.

Your AC is going to suffer because you'll be a light armor wearing wizard with low dex, but that's definitely the way to do it.

I wouldn't go with the fighting style, though. 1d4 damage isn't exactly that much better than the 1 damage every character does. Definitely no worth a Feat or a dip.

[Dork_Forge]

No reason you can't just go Str based bladesinger.

Your AC is going to suffer because you'll be a light armor wearing wizard with low dex, but that's definitely the way to do it.

I wouldn't go with the fighting style, though. 1d4 damage isn't exactly that much better than the 1 damage every character does. Definitely no worth a Feat or a dip.

The fighting style makes unarmed strikes 1d6 or 1d8 if both hands are empty and allows you to apply 1d4 auto damage at the start of each turn to a creature you grapple.

[suplee215]

Loxodon or Tortle can solve your AC issue I think.

[heavyfuel]

The fighting style makes unarmed strikes 1d6 or 1d8 if both hands are empty and allows you to apply 1d4 auto damage at the start of each turn to a creature you grapple.

My bad. I thought it was nerfed from UA.

[ftafp]

the way I see it, a muscle wizard needs quite a few things to be optimal


It needs to not only punch reliably, but deal more damage with punches than it could with a cantrip, a task made all the more difficult by the fact that fists aren't a weapon
Both decent AC and HP are necessary to fight on the front lines, and if you're maxing both Str and Int the other two are harder to get
The baseline gish – the sorcadin – can make a full attack and cast a 1st level or higher spell in the same turn without haste. Int-based casters can get those abilities, but they're pretty much limited to once per day unless you get to eldritch knight 18
MADness in general is a steep issue, and in order to meet the other requirements you might have to triple-class to compete

[Luccan]

If by "muscle-wizard casts fist" you literally mean a Str-based Wizard gish focused on unarmed combat, that's a tall order. You're gonna be MAD, so to mitigate this you'll probably want to take your first level in Fighter anyway for the heavy armor (so you can dump Dex) and then as you say choose the Unarmed fighting style. Bladesinger seems obvious, though your level in Fighter and choice in fighting style means half your level 2 abilities don't matter (I'd go with a component pouch over an arcane focus, btw, so you get the full d8 attack). In order to keep your fists semi-competitive with your cantrips, you will also need to max out both Strength and Intelligence. Finally, a use for Githyanki (assuming you don't use Tasha's optional rules for choosing racial ASIs)

Edit: I don't think this is a "good" build in terms of power, but investment in the right spells should at least make this playable in a standard party.

[Dork_Forge]

V. Human (Fighting Initiate:Unarmed)
1st level: War Cleric
Every other level Bladesinger

Keep both hands empty and cast Divine Favor in combat, then you can do: 1d8+1d4+3 which isn't too shabby with a 'nova' of doing it again as a bonus a couple times a day. Grabbing Hex or Hunter's Mark would yield slightly more damage but make your already tied up bonus action more competitive.

Two handed unarmed style and Divine Favor will see you through with good enough damage to remain competitive for most of tier 1 and 2 tbh, if you want to go higher than that then you'll probably have to leave Wizard after getting Extra Attack:

-Fighter is one option, particularly going for the Psi Warrior
-Ranger would give you the new Favored foe for when you don't have spell slots left... okay you'll probably never use it, but Gloom Stalker gives an additional attack (with d8 bump) every combat as well as an initiative bump to compensate for Dex being low. Hunter and Swarm would also give you a damage bump among other things.

[Snowbluff]

If you can convince your DM that Thunderfists aren't specifically a benefit, you can do the SAD Businessman concept I put on the Tasha's Multiclass thread. Tortle Armorer3/Bladesinger6+. The benefit here would be your incredible Int SADness and the ability to mark enemies. It's more of a tanking build, however.

[ZiddyT]

Bladesinger 17/Armorer 3 with the Dual Wielder feat would probably be the most optimal. You can use scagtrips with the Thunder Gauntlet, can use Int for attacks, you get 9th level spells and a couple useful infusions.

Bladesinger/Astral Self similarly works if you're willing to literally cast Fist instead of punching with your own two hands, 3x per short rest so it should be more than enough.

Anything else probably runs into the issue of being too MAD or doing very low damage. Not being able to use Scagtrips with unarmed attacks is a big limiting factor since it significantly nerfs the best martial Wizard (Bladesinger). Still, if you must punch with your own two God-given fists and not use punchy weapons like Thunder Gauntlets or Astral Arms, then you're probably best off just going Bladesinger 17/Fighter 2/Monk 1.

Fighter will get you unarmed fighting style for a D8 on your punches and action surge, Monk will stop you from having to be unreasonably MAD (still somewhat MAD though due to the 13 Wis MC requirement). The Bladesinger still gets everything you want out of a Wizard along with Extra Attack (with a bonus action attack from Monk). It'll do less damage than the other two options, but it works fine. You could even use Tenser's Transformation and not feel bad about it.

[Zaile]

I guess the best questions are:

"How much wizard?"
"How much fist?"

EK 5, Armorer 5 and Bladesinger 6 are Extra Attack.
Artificer has gauntlets, EK gets Unarmed style, Bladesinger needs a Ftr 1 or Pal2 for Unarmed
Tavern Brawler feat is 1d4 unarmed, but you might as well dip for a style.

I'd suggest:

EK 5 / War Wizard X (EK 6 for ASI if needed)
Ftr 1 / Bladesinger X (You could go PAL 2 for Smite Fists, but suggest only if rolling stats. Needs DM permission for Unarmed Pally.)
Armorer 5+ / Wizard X

I'm using EK 6/WWiz 4 grappler build in Tomb of Everything is Cursed and Kills You (annihilation) and it provides a lot if utility and suitability. What I can't punch or grapple, I stab with up-cast Shadow Blade. Feats: Tavern Brawler, Skill Expert (Athletics expertise), Warcaster.

[BamBam]

In AL getting a belt is doable, so Paladin 2/ Wizard 18 is optimal.

[Zaile]

In AL getting a belt is doable, so Paladin 2/ Wizard 18 is optimal.

Just curious, what would be your stat distribution since you need a descent CON, Srt 13, Int 13, and Cha 13?

[Gignere]

No one said Shadowblade has to look like a sword right, can’t you reskin it as an aura surrounding your palms and say you are doing karate chops. You literally cast fist.

[CheddarChampion]

Is the unarmed fighting style available to the paladin?
Ask your DM if they'll let you smite with your fists.

Paladin 2/War Wizard X or 6/X
Human 16/12/13/14/10/14
Str +2, Str +2, Resilient (Constitution), Prodigy (Athletics).
As another poster mentioned, divine favor is decent round-to-round damage.
Smite spells could add some variety.
Tenser's Transformation, if it applies to your fists, is pretty good.

Alternatively Battlemaster 5/Wizard X with unarmed fighting style could work. Maneuvers with your punches.

Or be a wild magic (if that's the title) Barbarian V. Human, take the feat that grants a fighting style, and call yourself a wizard. Anyone that disagrees gets hit with "Sleep."

[Zaile]

No one said Shadowblade has to look like a sword right, can’t you reskin it as an aura surrounding your palms and say you are doing karate chops. You literally cast fist.

"I call upon the might of Crom! Grant me thy dark hand to smack some fools! Shadow Fist!"

Love it

Side note: Wizard Fist/Fist Wizards and Shadow Fist would be good metal-band names

[Zaile]

Is the unarmed fighting style available to the paladin?
Ask your DM if they'll let you smite with your fists.

Paladin 2/War Wizard X or 6/X
Human 16/12/13/14/10/14
Str +2, Str +2, Resilient (Constitution), Prodigy (Athletics).
As another poster mentioned, divine favor is decent round-to-round damage.
Smite spells could add some variety.
Tenser's Transformation, if it applies to your fists, is pretty good.

Alternatively Battlemaster 5/Wizard X with unarmed fighting style could work. Maneuvers with your punches.

Or be a wild magic (if that's the title) Barbarian V. Human, take the feat that grants a fighting style, and call yourself a wizard. Anyone that disagrees gets hit with "Sleep."

I like this. You could go Ancients pally 7 for that sweet half damage from spells and just fireball around yourself in melee, Resilient Dex helps here. Sorcerer for metamagic is a bit better than Wiz for a pally though and easier on the stats. Twin, Transmute to cast Iceball, Lightningball, Acidball, or Thunderball, Quicken, etc. Splash Ftr 2 for a second fighting stlye and Action Surge and you have insane nova rounds at mid-high levels.

[CheddarChampion]

I like this. You could go Ancients pally 7 for that sweet half damage from spells and just fireball around yourself in melee, Resilient Dex helps here. Sorcerer for metamagic is a bit better than Wiz for a pally though and easier on the stats. Twin, Transmute to cast Iceball, Lightningball, Acidball, or Thunderball, Quicken, etc. Splash Ftr 2 for a second fighting stlye and Action Surge and you have insane nova rounds at mid-high levels.

Thank you! It's pretty much a "Sorcadin" build adapted to allow for Wizard levels. I went with War Wizard for the defensive effects especially the +4 to a save using your reaction and +2 AC/+2 to saves when concentrating. If you mostly attack anyway, who cares about the "no using spell slots for a turn" caveat of the reaction.

I'd be tempted to take Shield Master instead of prodigy at high levels. Sure you'd deal 1d6 instead of 1d8 with a punch but you deal +2d12 damage with Tenser's Transformation, you have a good Athletics check for the shove, you have a way to shove prone+grapple+attack all in one turn, and a decent Dex save (+1 base, potentially more from Shield Master, War Wizard level 10, and Paladin level 6) for if you successfully save vs a fireball.

[ftafp]

Is the unarmed fighting style available to the paladin?
Ask your DM if they'll let you smite with your fists.

I really think we need a forums-wide rule against suggesting "ask your dm for X" whenever anyone asks for build advice, because it's not a helpful suggestion.

imagine if someone asked "how do I do better" on a chess forum and the response was "ask your opponent if you can replace all your pawns with queens"

[JNAProductions]

I really think we need a forums-wide rule against suggesting "ask your dm for X" whenever anyone asks for build advice, because it's not a helpful suggestion.

imagine if someone asked "how do I do better" on a chess forum and the response was "ask your opponent if you can replace all your pawns with queens"

No? Not at all.

Smiting with unarmed strikes is not RAW, but it's something many DMs (including myself) have no issue allowing. So it's reasonable to say "Check with your DM if you can do that."

[Zaile]

Thank you! It's pretty much a "Sorcadin" build adapted to allow for Wizard levels. I went with War Wizard for the defensive effects especially the +4 to a save using your reaction and +2 AC/+2 to saves when concentrating. If you mostly attack anyway, who cares about the "no using spell slots for a turn" caveat of the reaction.

I'd be tempted to take Shield Master instead of prodigy at high levels. Sure you'd deal 1d6 instead of 1d8 with a punch but you deal +2d12 damage with Tenser's Transformation, you have a good Athletics check for the shove, you have a way to shove prone+grapple+attack all in one turn, and a decent Dex save (+1 base, potentially more from Shield Master, War Wizard level 10, and Paladin level 6) for if you successfully save vs a fireball.

I only suggested it b/c of the very thin stat allocation if using standard array or point-buy. If you roll and get good rolls, go wild. Remember, you can be a sorcerer on paper, but "be" a wizard in character. Charisma synergy with 6-7 levels of Paladin makes that stat #3 as far as priority due to massive bump from Aura of Protection. If you go Pal 2, you can leave Cha at 13 and never look back. Also, Headband of Intellect is a gods-send if you let Int slide to 13 and saves on ASIs. Tenser's is great, but you need good fists before caster level 13, level 15-18 depending on your MC split.

I never notice the "can't cast non-cantrip spells" part with Arcane Deflection. If you're melee, that's not even a downside.

I recommend Skill Expert > Prodigy. Don't have to be Human, gets a skill, a +1, and Expertise in any skill you have. If you think you will have enough ASIs or get a Headband of Int., some feats to consider: Warcaster for Concentration and AOOs, Shield Master is crazy good if you fireball yourself surrounded by enemies, Tavern Brawler if you go grappler, Resilient Wis or Con (depending on your level 1 class), Fey Touched gets you Misty Step and Hunter's Mark (one free cast each/day), Lucky is a cheat, Elevn Accuracy if you're full or half.

[Zaile]

No? Not at all.

Smiting with unarmed strikes is not RAW, but it's something many DMs (including myself) have no issue allowing. So it's reasonable to say "Check with your DM if you can do that."

Oath of Glory makes an fist-smiting, wrestling paladin very thematic and cool. Check with you DM :elan:

[ftafp]

No? Not at all.

Smiting with unarmed strikes is not RAW, but it's something many DMs (including myself) have no issue allowing. So it's reasonable to say "Check with your DM if you can do that."

Yeah, admittedly, this was a really bad place to start taking that stance. You're right it's an entirely reasonable request that almost any DM would allow.

I just hate that "ask your dm" is used as the answer to every optimization question because it completely sidesteps and invalidates the purpose of threads like these. What's the point of optimizing for something within the rules if you can just ignore the rules whenever you want and cut out the middleman.

[BamBam]

Yeah, admittedly, this was a really bad place to start taking that stance. You're right it's an entirely reasonable request that almost any DM would allow.

I just hate that "ask your dm" is used as the answer to every optimization question because it completely sidesteps and invalidates the purpose of threads like these. What's the point of optimizing for something within the rules if you can just ignore the rules whenever you want and cut out the middleman.

The Sage Advice Compendium has officially ruled that smites cannot be applied to unarmed strikes. Smites can be applied to natural weapons, however. So tabaxi, lizardfolk, aarokara, etc can smite with their natural weapons.

Of course a DM can unofficially allow smite to work with unarmed.

[CheddarChampion]

I just hate that "ask your dm" is used as the answer to every optimization question because it completely sidesteps and invalidates the purpose of threads like these. What's the point of optimizing for something within the rules if you can just ignore the rules whenever you want and cut out the middleman.

I think it's fine in the context of "how can I do X?" and the specific thing suggested to ask the DM about is reasonable and isn't mentioned as off-limits.

If the point is to help someone come up with a build they could play at their table, "ask your DM" can be useful: it can lead to a build they would like to and are allowed to play. If it is unreasonable (subjectively) telling the poster to ask their DM probably won't get them anywhere. If the poster mentioned the thing is off-limits it won't help them, though it might help someone else.

The DM is the final arbiter of rules anyway. Even "RAW" builds might not be allowed by a DM. For example, if a player asked me if they could play as a Evoker Hexblade to get mondo damage with magic missile and per-hit damage boosts I'd probably say no. I imagine many other DMs would say the same.

In summary "ask your DM" acknowledges that the rules are ultimately up to the DM/the group and opens up new potential for players with a build goal.

[BamBam]

Even "RAW" builds might not be allowed by a DM. For example, if a player asked me if they could play as a Evoker Hexblade to get mondo damage with magic missile and per-hit damage boosts I'd probably say no. I imagine many other DMs would say the same.

Just a bit of correction . . . The Sage Advice Compendium does not officially support the Nuclear Wizard build. The Nuclear Wizard is a build that only has unofficial support (from old Tweets that are no longer considered official) and is not "RAW".

[Avonar]

I'm a big fan of Githyanki War Wizard. Get the armour and sword proficiency, take a melee cantrip and go to town on them.

[CheddarChampion]

Just a bit of correction . . . The Sage Advice Compendium does not officially support the Nuclear Wizard build. The Nuclear Wizard is a build that only has unofficial support (from old Tweets that are no longer considered official) and is not "RAW".

Oh okay, thank you.