Doctor Despair
2020-11-26, 11:00 PM
Fiend of Possession is an interesting PrC that was brought up in a recent thread as a way to make a character into a sort of DIY magical item. I decided to take a look at it, and, in addition to finding discussion on the usefulness of Dimensional Shackles/Rods of Embassy/Naturalized Denizen, I found I had a few questions.
Question 1: Rules Q & A
Fiends of Possession possess the following ability:
Hide Presence (Ex): A fiend in possession of an object or creature can attempt to hide its presence by making a special Hide check. This "mental" Hide check uses the fiend's Intelligence modifier instead of its Dexterity modifier. A successful check allows a fiend of possession to avoid virtually anything that would betray its presence in the possessed creature or object: it can pass through a magic circle against evil, enter a temple warded by forbiddance, or escape detection via detect evil. The DC for this Hide check is the same as the saving throw DC for the spell the fiend is trying to avoid. The fiend gains a +4 circumstance bonus on this check if it is not controlling the possessed creature or object at the time of the check.
When possessing a creature, a fiend of possession can make this Hide check to protect the possessed creature from the full effects of alignment-based spells such as holy smite. If the fiend makes a successful Hide check (against the save DC of the spell), the possessed creature takes damage appropriate to its actual alignment, but if the fiend fails the Hide check, the possessed creature is affected as if it were the fiend.
Making this check is not an action; the fiend can do it in response to another creature's action (such as casting detect evil).
This ability states that is can be used to hide from virtually anything that would betray its presence, which seems powerful. It then goes on to say that the DC for the hide check is the saving throw DC for the effect it would avoid. Spot checks, listen checks, special senses (blindsight, scent, mindsight, lifesense), no-save spells like Detect Magic do not have saving throws.
Does this mean that such means to detect the FoP have an effective DC of 0 to avoid, or is the ability incapable of hiding from them?
If any method of detecting the FoP that doesn't offer a save has a DC of 0 (and it did say it works against virtually anything), then this should offer stealth against... well, as the ability says, virtually everything, as skill checks are easier to pump than save DCs, right? That seems very powerful, which makes me want to err on the side of caution, but it literally says that it can help the FoP escape detection by Detect Evil as an example, which offers no save, making me think this should work on... literally everything automatically, with a check to avoid detection by things that force saves?
Question 2: Rules Q & A
Fiends of Possession also possess this ability:
Possess Object (Su): A fiend of possession in ethereal form can possess an object on the Material Plane...
While possessing an object, a fiend of possession can use any ability it has that requires no physical action, such as using a spell-like ability or telepathy. It cannot cast spells (since it can neither speak nor move), attack physically, or perform any other physical action, until it reaches a high enough level to make the possessed object perform these tasks for it.
Based on this, it seems like a standard fiend could use psionic abilities with no restriction. It seems like Control Object would allow you to meet the S components for spells, but not the V or M components. If this is the case, Silent Spell and Eschew Material Components could be very helpful for a spellcasting fiend.
Does all this seem accurate?
Question 3: Rules Q & A
If a Fiend of Possession is possessing a creature or object, it "becomes part" of the object or victim respectively. It talks about how it can see within 60 feet of the object, or see using the victim's senses, so that should satisfy the line of sight requirement for effects, but does a Fiend of Possession have line of effect to other creatures? I have no doubt the fiend would have line of effect to itself and to the creature or object it is possessing, but would being "part" of the possessed creature or object mean you draw a line from the creature or object to the target?
Question 4: Optimization
As entry options, the Kaorti and Divine Minion Diabolus seem relatively comparable.
Kaorti (Fiend Folio 108) offers, for LA2 and two HD, the outsider type and evil subtype. It grants you some SLAs and racial skill points and skill bonuses, an EWP and Weapon Finesse, -4 str, +4 dex and int, and +6 cha. It gives a host of SLAs, the ability to make more kaortis, and a vulnerability to being on the material plane (and the means to craft armor to negate that vulnerability). It also grants sorcerer as a favored class.
Diabolus (Dragon Compendium 6) offers, for LA1, the outsider type and chaotic subtype. They get a bonus to saves against spells and SLAs, some racial bonuses and penalties to skills, a natural attack with a scaling poison rider to sicken, and sorcerer as a favored class. Meanwhile, being a Mulhorandi Divine Minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) of Sebek offers, for LA1, an exchange for the chaotic subtype to become the evil subtype. It grants a very broken Fast Wild Shape ability that, by RAW, grants infinite healing each round, and fear immunity. It also means that you can be summoned using Summon Monster or Planar Ally.
The handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=4354.0) suggests that Kaorti is the best outsider to translate into FoP. Even assuming a reasonable DM would hard nerf the MDM unlimited healing each round by only allowing one transformation per turn, or limiting uses from at-will to X per day, or something, are the benefits from the Kaorti racial hitdie worth giving up two class levels? I suppose you could do the wight trick, level drain one of the HD off, and retrain the other, although I'm not sure which benefits would be retained if you lose all the HD... Just looking for some general thoughts and feedback for this one.
Thanks for any clarification or feedback folks can offer!
Question 1: Rules Q & A
Fiends of Possession possess the following ability:
Hide Presence (Ex): A fiend in possession of an object or creature can attempt to hide its presence by making a special Hide check. This "mental" Hide check uses the fiend's Intelligence modifier instead of its Dexterity modifier. A successful check allows a fiend of possession to avoid virtually anything that would betray its presence in the possessed creature or object: it can pass through a magic circle against evil, enter a temple warded by forbiddance, or escape detection via detect evil. The DC for this Hide check is the same as the saving throw DC for the spell the fiend is trying to avoid. The fiend gains a +4 circumstance bonus on this check if it is not controlling the possessed creature or object at the time of the check.
When possessing a creature, a fiend of possession can make this Hide check to protect the possessed creature from the full effects of alignment-based spells such as holy smite. If the fiend makes a successful Hide check (against the save DC of the spell), the possessed creature takes damage appropriate to its actual alignment, but if the fiend fails the Hide check, the possessed creature is affected as if it were the fiend.
Making this check is not an action; the fiend can do it in response to another creature's action (such as casting detect evil).
This ability states that is can be used to hide from virtually anything that would betray its presence, which seems powerful. It then goes on to say that the DC for the hide check is the saving throw DC for the effect it would avoid. Spot checks, listen checks, special senses (blindsight, scent, mindsight, lifesense), no-save spells like Detect Magic do not have saving throws.
Does this mean that such means to detect the FoP have an effective DC of 0 to avoid, or is the ability incapable of hiding from them?
If any method of detecting the FoP that doesn't offer a save has a DC of 0 (and it did say it works against virtually anything), then this should offer stealth against... well, as the ability says, virtually everything, as skill checks are easier to pump than save DCs, right? That seems very powerful, which makes me want to err on the side of caution, but it literally says that it can help the FoP escape detection by Detect Evil as an example, which offers no save, making me think this should work on... literally everything automatically, with a check to avoid detection by things that force saves?
Question 2: Rules Q & A
Fiends of Possession also possess this ability:
Possess Object (Su): A fiend of possession in ethereal form can possess an object on the Material Plane...
While possessing an object, a fiend of possession can use any ability it has that requires no physical action, such as using a spell-like ability or telepathy. It cannot cast spells (since it can neither speak nor move), attack physically, or perform any other physical action, until it reaches a high enough level to make the possessed object perform these tasks for it.
Based on this, it seems like a standard fiend could use psionic abilities with no restriction. It seems like Control Object would allow you to meet the S components for spells, but not the V or M components. If this is the case, Silent Spell and Eschew Material Components could be very helpful for a spellcasting fiend.
Does all this seem accurate?
Question 3: Rules Q & A
If a Fiend of Possession is possessing a creature or object, it "becomes part" of the object or victim respectively. It talks about how it can see within 60 feet of the object, or see using the victim's senses, so that should satisfy the line of sight requirement for effects, but does a Fiend of Possession have line of effect to other creatures? I have no doubt the fiend would have line of effect to itself and to the creature or object it is possessing, but would being "part" of the possessed creature or object mean you draw a line from the creature or object to the target?
Question 4: Optimization
As entry options, the Kaorti and Divine Minion Diabolus seem relatively comparable.
Kaorti (Fiend Folio 108) offers, for LA2 and two HD, the outsider type and evil subtype. It grants you some SLAs and racial skill points and skill bonuses, an EWP and Weapon Finesse, -4 str, +4 dex and int, and +6 cha. It gives a host of SLAs, the ability to make more kaortis, and a vulnerability to being on the material plane (and the means to craft armor to negate that vulnerability). It also grants sorcerer as a favored class.
Diabolus (Dragon Compendium 6) offers, for LA1, the outsider type and chaotic subtype. They get a bonus to saves against spells and SLAs, some racial bonuses and penalties to skills, a natural attack with a scaling poison rider to sicken, and sorcerer as a favored class. Meanwhile, being a Mulhorandi Divine Minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) of Sebek offers, for LA1, an exchange for the chaotic subtype to become the evil subtype. It grants a very broken Fast Wild Shape ability that, by RAW, grants infinite healing each round, and fear immunity. It also means that you can be summoned using Summon Monster or Planar Ally.
The handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=4354.0) suggests that Kaorti is the best outsider to translate into FoP. Even assuming a reasonable DM would hard nerf the MDM unlimited healing each round by only allowing one transformation per turn, or limiting uses from at-will to X per day, or something, are the benefits from the Kaorti racial hitdie worth giving up two class levels? I suppose you could do the wight trick, level drain one of the HD off, and retrain the other, although I'm not sure which benefits would be retained if you lose all the HD... Just looking for some general thoughts and feedback for this one.
Thanks for any clarification or feedback folks can offer!