Paladin and Rangers with cantrips

[suplee215]

I'm just curious if anyone is thinking of builds using these classes' new fighting style Druidic Warrior and Blessed Warrior. So far I am wanting to play a ranger with shillelagh, probably going Fey Wanderer to be able to put some points into Charisma for the Otherworldly Glamour ability. Any other ideas with these fighting styles or are they just outclassed by the bonus to attacks the others give?

[Renvir]

The original fighting styles are nice but unless you're playing a ranged or twf character I don't think any of them are "must haves". Being able to use two cantrips is really helpful in and out of combat. Shillelagh is great for melee rangers, toll the dead or sacred flame gives Paladins a decent ranged attack, guidance for either one is a massive skill boost for a party that lacks a druid or cleric, and druidcraft/thaumaturgy are flavorful additions. I think Shillelagh offers the most promise for optimized builds but blessed warrior really opens up mid and long range builds, especially for watcher and redemption paladins.

Edit: fixed subclass name.

[Kane0]

Primal Savagery on a Beastmaster making use of shared spells.

[stoutstien]

The utility and flexibility of the cantrips would usually out weigh the other styles for myself. Interception is tempting on a pally in low level games but for the most part smite is the bulk of the raw damage. Rangers can have some fun here. A swarm keeper could use thorn whip to pull/push a foe over spike growth.

[Naanomi]

Shillelagh/Magic Stone work well on a Monster Slayer also looking to Maximize the DC of their subclass abilities

[Thunderous Mojo]

Primal Savagery on a Beastmaster making use of shared spells.
This is an interesting option when facing a foe with resistance to physical damage.

By the time you reach 15th level to access the Share Spells feature..even a TCoE Beast of the Air, will have 2 attacks for 13 Average DPR against an AC of 16 with an attack bonus of +8.

A single cast of Primal Savagery at 3d10 averages 11 DPR, (but does do more damage per hit).

If a Ranger sacrifices one of their own attacks to allow the Beast o' Air to attack three times..the DPR average increases to 20.

I'm intrigued by a Ranger with Create Bonfire.

[bendking]

It would be difficult to tempt me into playing a melee Ranger, even with Shillelagh on-hand, since ranged combat is usually better than melee unless your class (Barbarian) or subclass (Cavalier) encourages you to melee. Thus, I'd say Druidic Warrior isn't highly tempting when you have the fantastic Archer fighting style.
Blessed Warrior, however, is quite decent for STR Paladins, since it somewhat covers their biggest weakness: ranged combat.

[Naanomi]

It would be difficult to tempt me into playing a melee Ranger, even with Shillelagh on-hand, since ranged combat is usually better than melee unless your class (Barbarian) or subclass (Cavalier) encourages you to melee. Thus, I'd say Druidic Warrior isn't highly tempting when you have the fantastic Archer fighting style.
Magic Stone can do Wisdom Ranger Weapon combat

[bendking]

Magic Stone can do Wisdom Ranger Weapon combat

Not bad, but it doesn't work with Sharpshooter which is a staple ranged feat when you're optimizing.

[Naanomi]

Not bad, but it doesn't work with Sharpshooter which is a staple ranged feat when you're optimizing.
It works for the last two parts, just not the range increase

[RogueJK]

No, it's a ranged spell attack, not a ranged weapon.

Sharpshooter wouldn't apply, even if thrown by a sling. (RAW, that would affect the range, but still wouldn't make it a weapon attack.)

However, Spell Sniper would benefit it.

But like Shilelagh, Magic Stone doesn't scale. It's good in Tier 1 and Tier 2 (especially with Extra Attack), but then gets outdamaged by some scaling cantrips in Tier 3 and especially 4.

And importantly, you also can't use Magic Stone with Ranger spells or subclass abilities that require weapon attacks. So no spells like Hunter's Mark, Hail of Thorns, Ensnaring Strike, etc., or subclass abilities like Colossus Slayer, Horde Breaker, Planar Warrior, Slayer's Prey, Dreadful Strikes, Dread Ambusher, etc.

Swarmkeeper subclass abilities would apply, though. As would Favored Foe. Those only require hitting with an attack, not specifically a weapon attack.

So a Magic Stone Ranger would only really be decent with a WIS-focused Tier 1 or Tier 2 Swarmkeeper who relied on Favored Foe and Gathered Swarm to boost damage. Starting at Level 3 you'd get 2d6+WIS+1d4 with your first hit, and then 1d6+WIS on your second once you get Extra Attack. But your Bonus Action would be eaten up casting Magic Stone to make more ammo in 2 out of every 3 rounds.

So unless you really have to be a WIS SAD ranged attacker, you're better off with a Longbow, the Archery Fighting Style, and a wider variety of feat, spell, and ability options.

[Naanomi]

Attacking at long range doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged weapon attack rolls.

Your ranged weapon attacks ignore half cover and three-quarters cover.

Before you make an attack with a ranged weapon that you are proficient with, you can choose to take a -5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack's damage.
A sling is a ranged weapon that I am making an attack with, doesn’t require a ‘ranged weapon attack’. Same way you make sneak attacks with charisma/wisdom rogues

[RogueJK]

True, so the last part could apply. But not the first two.

And without Archery Fighting Style's +2 to help offset the -5, the cost is even steeper than usual.

[JackPhoenix]

No, it's a ranged spell attack, not a ranged weapon.

Sharpshooter wouldn't apply, even if thrown by a sling. (RAW, that would affect the range, but still wouldn't make it a weapon attack.)

First two points of Sharpshooter (range and cover) require ranged weapon attack, and thus don't work with Magic Stone's ranged spell attacks.
The last part (-5/+10) requires ranged weapon, so it works if you're using sling, even if you're making a ranged spell attack.


However, Spell Sniper would benefit it.

1st point of Spell Sniper (increased range) works when you cast a spell, not when you shoot a stone created by a spell later.
2nd point (ignoring cover) works with any spell attack, so it works.

[Naanomi]

You can always pick up the archery combat style with the feat if you really needed it to make the concept work; I’d guess plenty of rogue sniper types are

[Sception]

I play a lot of paladins, and Blessed Warrior is definitely an option I'll be considering in the future, particularly in parties that otherwise lack access to guidance. That said, defense is still a solid boost that stays relevant throughout your career, and duelist may not scale well but it's still a meaningful boost to sword & board offense in campaigns that are wrapping up by level 10 or so (ie, most campaigns). Several of the other new fighting styles are also quite good. IMO interception solves my biggest problem with protection style (ie, having to burn your reaction before you even know whether the initial attack was going to do anything in the first place) making it an actually decent option for tanks so long as they have squishy melee partners to work with like melee rogues, bards, or warlocks. and Blind Fighting is just amazing, particularly if your race doesn't have darkvision or if you've got a shadow sorcerer or darkness + devil's sight warlock in the party.

There are now several good fighting style options allowing for some real variety from character to character, and that's pretty great.

[RogueJK]

I play a lot of paladins, and Blessed Warrior is definitely an option I'll be considering in the future, particularly in parties that otherwise lack access to guidance

Definitely worth considering, since it can also helps shore up one of the Paladin's main weaknesses (access to a decent ranged attack other than short range thrown weapons) by taking Guidance along with Sacred Flame/Toll the Dead, provided you have the CHA to make full use of an attack cantrip. Previously, dipping a level in Warlock or Sorcerer was a similar way to address this, so this brings that option to a single-classed Paladin.


and duelist may not scale well but it's still a meaningful boost to sword & board offense in campaigns that are wrapping up by level 10 or so (ie, most campaigns)

Especially nice on a Polearm Master + spear + shield "Spartan" Paladin, who can apply the +2 from Dueling to their additional Bonus Action attack too.

The +2 from Dueling bring the average damage of a 1d6 one-handed Spear up to equal that of the bigger 1d10 two-handed reach polearms. Both do an average of 5.5 damage. So you're trading Reach for an additional Bonus Action 1d4+STR+2 attack (and chance to Smite) plus the ability to use a Shield for +2 AC.

[Sception]

Especially nice on a Polearm Master + spear + shield "Spartan" Paladin.

Yup. Though even there, the lack of scaling would have me using the new martial versatility feature to trade it out, probably at the lvl 16 asi, most likely for defense or blind fighting.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm just curious if anyone is thinking of builds using these classes' new fighting style Druidic Warrior and Blessed Warrior. So far I am wanting to play a ranger with shillelagh, probably going Fey Wanderer to be able to put some points into Charisma for the Otherworldly Glamour ability. Any other ideas with these fighting styles or are they just outclassed by the bonus to attacks the others give? As much as I like the archery fighting style (flat +2 to hit is sooo nice) I can see me building a Ranger with Criminal/Spy (for the thieves tools) background - whose cantrips are (1) guidance and (2) something like mage hand or light, thaumaturgy or prestidigitation, or even druidcraft.

It would all depend on who is in the rest of the party.

[RogueJK]

As much as I like the archery fighting style (flat +2 to hit is sooo nice) I can see me building a Ranger with Criminal/Spy (for the thieves tools) background - whose cantrips are (1) guidance and (2) something like mage hand or light, thaumaturgy or prestidigitation, or even druidcraft.


A Ranger couldn't get Mage Hand, Light, Thaumaturgy, or Prestidigitation with Druidic Warrior... It only allows you to pick Druid cantrips. From your list, that would only be Guidance and Druidcraft.

You could go Swarmkeeper Ranger to get access to Mage Hand, though.

(I actually kinda like that concept... Something like a filthy Swarmkeeper Urban Ranger thief who lives in the sewers and uses a cloud of flies to help him steal items and burglarize homes by manipulating distant objects and helping him fly/hover.)

[KorvinStarmast]

A Ranger couldn't get Mage Hand, Light, Thaumaturgy, or Prestidigitation with Druidic Warrior... It only allows you to pick Druid cantrips. From your list, that would only be Guidance and Druidcraft. That will suffice, or produce flame. Then again, any decent DM will sub one in.
Guidance and produce flame, or guidance and shillelagh? I would have to name the latter Ranger Ginger Baker. Two clubs, one with shillelagh (go and pick up a level of Fighter for another fighting style: go TWF go!)

My survival skill likely gets me all the fire starting I need, but, having magical fire or light available might be handy. Guidance and produce flame is probably the way to go.

And FWIW, I am not going to play Pigpen the Ranger. :smallcool: (But thanks for tossing that idea out there, another person might find it to be useful)

[Pex]

It's good for a paladin who takes an attack cantrip to give him something to do when he can't get into melee for whatever reason. It's not his goto strategy, but it's something. Dex based paladins can get by using a bow when necessary. For the more typical Str paladin Sacred Flame is a . . . godsend.

[Dork_Forge]

I'm currently DMing two games and have seen each:

-The Beastmaster Ranger in one game was using the Variants UA and had taken cantrips, now we're on Tasha's she's kept the cantrips: Thornwhip and Poison Spray (sidenote, this is a longbow Ranger)

-In my other game the Paladin swapped out Protection for Blessed Warrior when given the option upon Tasha's release and chose: Guidance and Thaumaturgy (sidenote, the player has taken the Paladin in a much more caster orientated direction than I've seen before)

[RogueJK]

(sidenote, the player has taken the Paladin in a much more caster orientated direction than I've seen before)

Could you expand on what you mean by that? What's their Oath?

Certain Paladin Oaths do lend themselves to more of a spellcasting approach than usual, such as Conquest, Ancients, Redemption, or Watchers. Not exactly primary spellcasters, but more than just the typical Paladin buffing, healing, and melee.

[Dork_Forge]

Could you expand on what you mean by that? What's their Oath?

Certain Paladin Oaths do lend themselves to more of a spellcasting approach than usual, such as Conquest, Ancients, Redemption, or Watchers. Not exactly primary spellcasters, but more than just the typical Paladin buffing, healing, and melee.

He's a Dragonborn Oath of Vengeance, he's more hesitant to burn his slots on smiting than what I usually see and will often comb his prepared spells for solutions rather than defaulting to hitting things. When the group came across a Ring of Spell Storing they agreed that it should fall to him and when I had them blindly choose boons (by saying which specific NPC on an powerful council drew their attention) he chose the Archmage of the council. As a result I allowed him to choose a number of Wizard spells up to his Cha mod that he has the slots to cast, he can cast one of these spells once a day for free and treat them as Paladin spells always prepared otherwise.

He's taken to that boon rather well and I can only see his spell use growing as the player gets more familiar with his list and gains access to new spells (he's on his 2nd character in 5e, but comes from 2e).

For context the party is currently 12th level, he is single classed and his companions are: a Glamour Bard 10/Celestial Warlock 2 and a Bearbarian 7/Swash Rogue 5.

[RogueJK]

Very cool. Thanks.

One of my favorite characters from prior editions was a 3E Paladin of Mystra who had Arcane caster levels. Sounds like a similar Arcane Paladin concept.

[paladinn]

Maybe a silly question.. If I have a sorcadin character, and the sorcerer side is a divine soul, I will typically have access to the cleric spell list. Would there be any benefit to taking the Blessed Warrior feature? Would there be more of a benefit to just single-classing paladin with this feature?

I've gone MC with divine soul in order to get a ranged attack, more healing and an AoE attack later.

Recommendations?

[RogueJK]

Maybe a silly question.. If I have a sorcadin character, and the sorcerer side is a divine soul, I will typically have access to the cleric spell list. Would there be any benefit to taking the Blessed Warrior feature?

Two extra cantrips is not nothing, but it's certainly not as useful as on a single classed Paladin.

However, you can now swap out Fighting Styles at every Paladin ASI. So you could potentially take Blessed Warrior from the start, and then after you Multiclass into Sorcerer, swap it for something like Defense at your next Paladin ASI. The timing gets a bit wonky, though... You'd have to dip a level in Sorcerer either before Paladin 4 if going Pal6/SorX, or before Paladin 8 if going Pal9/SorX. Going the traditional route of straight Paladin 6 and then switching to just Sorcerer wouldn't allow you to swap out your Fighting Style, unless you were okay with swapping at 4th and being cantripless for Levels 4, 5, and 6.

[paladinn]

Two extra cantrips is not nothing, but it's certainly not as useful as on a single classed Paladin.

However, you can now swap out Fighting Styles at every Paladin ASI. So you could potentially take Blessed Warrior from the start, and then after you Multiclass into Sorcerer, swap it for something like Defense at your next Paladin ASI. The timing gets a bit wonky, though... You'd have to dip a level in Sorcerer either before Paladin 4 if going Pal6/SorX, or before Paladin 8 if going Pal9/SorX. Going the traditional route of straight Paladin 6 and then switching to just Sorcerer wouldn't allow you to swap out your Fighting Style, unless you were okay with swapping at 4th and being cantripless for Levels 4, 5, and 6.

I've actually gone sorlocadin before, with a 2 level dip into hexblade. Got me a good agonizing blast. Not sure if it was worth it with the new style available.

[Necromas]

Maybe a silly question.. If I have a sorcadin character, and the sorcerer side is a divine soul, I will typically have access to the cleric spell list. Would there be any benefit to taking the Blessed Warrior feature? Would there be more of a benefit to just single-classing paladin with this feature?

I've gone MC with divine soul in order to get a ranged attack, more healing and an AoE attack later.

Recommendations?

More cantrips are still nice even if you already had access to the same list. If you plan to mostly still be a "Hits things with their sword" Paladin you would probably be better off with a fighting style, but if you want to focus on the Sorcerer side it can be handy having room to include a wide variety of cantrips. Since you will have access to both Sorcerer and Cleric cantrips you can get a lot of mileage out of the utility options like guidance, minor illusion, and mage hand, while still having room to fit in multiple offensive options like booming blade, firebolt, and toll the dead.