Using spells to change type to obtain more Polymorph forms

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Polymorph is a messy rule, but as far as I can understand the limit on forms taken can be bypassed if you're already a creature of that type. So if my human PC wants to turn into a Midgard Dwarf to get Craft Wondrous Item, they need to get the Outsider type first.
I can't spend a feat on Otherworldly (well, I could spent my Chameleon floating feat but I don't think it works that way) so I figured I'd use a spell. Constantly recasting Devil's Ego should make me an Outsider, and then I can constantly recast Polymorph. Obtaining enough spell slots to manage this shouldn't be difficult as I'm brainstorming this as a possible path for a Chameleon/Shadowcraft Mage who can stockpile Delicate Discs for free. This takes a lot of downtime, but apart from the massive time cost to prepare all this there's nothing stopping me from just smashing a pair of fiscs when both spells when both spells both run out to take the Midgard Dwarf form and continue crafting.
My questions:

Is this approach impossible rules-wise for some reason?
What happens if my Devil's Ego spell runs out but Polymorph doesn't? Can I stay polymorphed as an Outsider even if I'm no longer an Outsider myself?
Is there a spell to become an Elemental for a while?

[Doctor Despair]

Polymorph is a messy rule, but as far as I can understand the limit on forms taken can be bypassed if you're already a creature of that type. So if my human PC wants to turn into a Midgard Dwarf to get Craft Wondrous Item, they need to get the Outsider type first.

True.



I can't spend a feat on Otherworldly (well, I could spent my Chameleon floating feat but I don't think it works that way) so I figured I'd use a spell.

You're right about the feat -- it's a regional feat, so having the appropriate type wouldn't be enough.



Constantly recasting Devil's Ego should make me an Outsider, and then I can constantly recast Polymorph. Obtaining enough spell slots to manage this shouldn't be difficult as I'm brainstorming this as a possible path for a Chameleon/Shadowcraft Mage who can stockpile Delicate Discs for free.

You can get Devil's Ego on an Eternal Wand (two uses per day, unlimited). Polymorph lasts for 1 min/level, and it shouldn't fizzle when Devil's Ego runs out. Given Polymorph's duration, you're right that it's a big consideration -- I'm unfamiliar with Shadowcraft Mage or Delicate Discs, but would it be more efficient to take three levels of Incantatrix, Extend Spell, and Persistent Spell? Or at least the Leadership feat to have a cohort with those Incantatrix levels? Food for thought.



This takes a lot of downtime, but apart from the massive time cost to prepare all this there's nothing stopping me from just smashing a pair of fiscs when both spells when both spells both run out to take the Midgard Dwarf form and continue crafting.

So your main concern is qualifying as a Midgard Dwarf for crafting? I assume it's for the Magic Smith (Ex) Quality, right? Oh, as I look above, you did say it was for a bonus feat. Unfortunately, Polymorph doesn't help you get this. :/


The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Shapechange does it at a level 9 slot, and you don't have to mess around with Devil's Ego for it either. Throw it on a staff and go to town.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So long as you are an Outsider when you cast polymorph, you should stay in whatever form you chose until polymorph runs out, even if the initial reason for being an Outsider stops applying.

You could try a phylactery of change, which is a relatively cheap item (11k) in the A&EG. It lets you polymorph into a single form permanently 1/day. Cast devil's ego beforehand, then use the permanent polymorph effect to become a Midgardian dwarf, or whatever else you want.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

[snipped]
Thanks a lot!
So to summarize: it all theoretically works, but taking that form doesn't actually grant access to its (Ex) bonus feats? Well, that makes this all pointless then... :smallfrown:
Good to know, thanks!



You could try a phylactery of change, which is a relatively cheap item (11k) in the A&EG. It lets you polymorph into a single form permanently 1/day. Cast devil's ego beforehand, then use the permanent polymorph effect to become a Midgardian dwarf, or whatever else you want.
Thanks for responding!
Unfortunately, I'm brainstorming what a specific build could do in a no-magic setting, so it can't get items unless it can craft them. Using an item to get the ability to craft more items would face implementation issues.

On another note, does anyone know of a spell to polymorph into an Elemental? That wouldn't solve my magic item crafting issues, but at least I could use my floating feat to take Assume Supernatural Ability and grab an Elemental Weird's Prescience.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Could you finagle Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) onto polymorph after you cast devil's ego? It'd take a single dip in cleric or some other class/feat/other option for Turn/Rebuke Undead, as well as two feats, but it'd be a fantastic power multiplier for you even outside of crafting.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Could you finagle Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) onto polymorph after you cast devil's ego? It'd take a single dip in cleric or some other class/feat/other option for Turn/Rebuke Undead, as well as two feats, but it'd be a fantastic power multiplier for you even outside of crafting.
I'm sorry, but for game reasons the build is mostly fixed.
If you really care, the exact constraints are in a spoiler below, but the tl;dr is that I can spend feats and spell slots, but not levels. If there's a way to grab Craft Wondrous Item with spells (hopefully spells more accessible than Shapechange), then that would be great!
My current best hope is to find a feat that grants a magic item of my choice, and leverage that magic item into Shapechange. Maybe Ancestral Relic could do the trick, if I used it to turn an old book into a bunch of cursed Scrolls of Shapechange? That's such an ugly solution though (and insanely expensive in terms of gold) that I'm hoping to find anything else.

The basic idea is to have a build whose total level is 4+ the Tier of the best class it takes (using the 2019 retiering). This character then ends up in a low-magic world (no buying any magic items!) and has to be able to handle a variety of threats all on its own (social, physical (both direct violence and all forms of murder and sickness), political, and maybe some weird magic you won't see coming). This character is also unlikely to level.
Yes, these are a lot of constraints.

As of right now, I'm thinking Commoner 1 / Aristocrat 1 / Stoneblessed 3 / Chameleon 2 / Shadowcraft Mage 3. Stats are 10s all around, but 18 in Int and Wis. Getting the skills to work is a pain in the early levels, but it's entirely possible.
This build has good social skills, is decent in combat due to Cleric buffs, can do mind-control and divination and interrogation, can summon with proper (calling) spells, can replicate 8th-level spells with Shadowcraft Mage and Residual Magic (this includes big nuke spells, but also Summon Monster I-VIII in case I need to raise the dead), and has the insanely varied spell list of a Chameleon. With some downtime it can start grabbing a Chameleon's arcane spells, it can raise its own caster level, etc. And it can stockpile Delicate Discs to help mitigate its low number of spells per day! Honestly it can theoretically do a lot of stuff - but I've been struggling to tack on crafting.

With the right Feats I think it's possible to qualify for Shadowcraft Mage without actually taking any levels in a spellcasting class. My Feats end up like this: Able Learner, Spell Focus (illusion), 2 Flaws, Wedded to History, Magical Training (Wizard-based), Heighten Spell, Metamagic School Focus (Illusion), Residual Magic. This assumes retraining - otherwise I'd just dump Wedded to History and take Sanctum Spell instead (using my bonus to take Metamagic School Focus (illusion) to qualify for Shadowcraft Mage, and then taking the feat properly at level 9 and using my floating feat on Residual Magic most days).
However this setup has two issues: not only do I have no caster level and am therefore unable to learn Craft Wondrous Item with my floating feat, I'm also not sure that there exists an illusion[shadow] cantrip that I can learn with Magical Training which I could then heighten to 4th level to qualify for Shadowcraft Mage. If no such cantrip exists then I have to research such a cantrip myself before being able to use the benefits of those final three levels, I guess - and that's assuming that Magical Training lets me learn cantrips like a wizard! If that's not possible then I'll have to dump that PrC altogether.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You could always alter self into a human. That grants you a feat. Unfortunately, it only lasts 10 min/lvl. PF has a greater hat of disguise (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/hat-of-disguise/) for permanent alter self, but it's more expensive than the phylactery I mentioned earlier.

How 'bout a permanencied alter self? Or set up a(n un)hallow setup with alter self or polymorph as the attached spell.

Or you could set up your crafting lab on the Astral Plane, where it's timeless with regards to spell duration. There are cheap ways to get there, such as hiring a nomad psion for a quick trip there, or nabbing a Transdimensional dimension swap on an astral critter (such as the aforementioned nomad).