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View Full Version : Pathfinder Kineticist Composite problems and a possible fix.



death390
2020-11-28, 08:05 AM
Hi all i have been playing in a Pathfinder game and am on my way to reaching 7th level, i have been overlooking the composites. I am a Aether elementalist, i understand that the Aether line is primarily utility but the Aether Composites are not simply bad they are literal trap options that you are better off using ANYTHING else. The group allows 3pp material when approved by DM, we have been using Kineticist of Porphorya series and Legendary Kineticists books.

Part 1: First party Aether Composites
Aetheric Boost: 2 Burn [3 for composites], usable on any simple blast . Add +1 damage per Die rolled on Kinetic Blast.
[This is a major trap option, at lvl 19 this is either +10 or +20 when used on a simple or composite blast, that it nothing more. Wait till Part 3 for why this is god awful.]

Force Blast: 2 Burn, Requires Expanded element (Aether) or the 3pp feat Composite Blast Technique (Kineticist of Porphorya 3, only works for primary element).
Energy blast, Deals SIMPLY BLAST DAMAGE. . . wait what why? at least 2d4 or something. you get NOTHING out of this except you can hit intangible enemies and don't often have to worry about energy resistant enemies, much. [WORSE you can't use ANY of the TK blast form infusions with this AND the two printed force only infusions are absolute garbage. Part 3 incoming.]


[U]Part 2: 3pp Aether composites
there are 3, full stop only 3 3pp Aether composites i have found.
SIlverlight blast: 3 Bun, requires Force blast and Positive blast. 1/2 Force 1/2 Positive energy. Does not heal with the positive energy, instead if it would heal then that part does 0 dmg. Targets hit by
the blast are under the effect of the spell Silverlight for 3 rounds. Double burn cost for kineticists who use the dread soul archetype, are of evil alignment or are harmed by positive energy. uses the same infusions as force and positive blast.

Darklight blast: 3 Burn, requires Force blast and Negative blast. 1/2 Force 1/2 Negative energy. Does not heal with the negative energy, instead if it would heal then that part does 0 dmg. Targets hit by the blast are under the effect of the spell Blacklight for 3 rounds, creatures who enter within 20ft of those emiting blacklight are treated as if under dark-light spell. Double burn cost for kineticists who are of the good alignment. uses same infusions as force and negative blasts.

Regression blast: 0 Burn, Requires Force blast and Chrono blast. Force damage. You can halt the energy being built up in your force blast early, weakening it enough that it no longer strains you to use it. Reduce this blast’s damage die size by 1 step, otherwise treating this as force blast. [. . so wait you do 1d4 per odd level force blast. well at least it is better than basic force blast since it costs nothing. . .]


Part 3: Infusions and other Burn options.
So as we saw there really isn't much there for Aether when it comes to composites but at least infusions are good for them right? nope it get EVEN WORSE, the only good infusions are for TK blast, seriously i am not kidding.

The infusions that work on Force and TK blasts.
All Universal infusions, but then they work on anything soo +/- 0? note that 90% are form infusions, Draining can't be used except by force (and what has force subtype), there are a couple that are kinetic fist + monk [Stylish and blocking], and lastly Grappling infusion which only works in concert with Wall [the other 2 can't be used by TK] which does 1/2 dmg with physical blasts.

3pp Universal: Note i will only talk about important ones since there are many and most are usable by [Any]
Incorporeal Infusion 1Burn. Hey look the only benefit Force had over TK is negated for 1pt of burn. and it's a substance infusion.

Infusions that are TK blast only.
Bowling Infusion: 2 Burn. CMB check to Trip target. Ok trip is really good and this is one of the only substance infusions Aether gets, but 2 Burn is quite a lot especially early though since it only work on TK and not force...

Foe Throw: 2 Burn [3 burn for Huge or bigger], Fort Negates. Thrown target and attack target take full damage and thrown target falls prone!, but if throw target saves nothing happens. So this is basically a better Bowling infusion plus this is the only early infusion that gives you full multi-target damage (Most universal form infusions are 1/4 dmg for physical dmg.)

Many Throw: 4 Burn. Attack up to kineticist level in targets within 120ft, each target must be within 30ft of another target! finally an "AoE" for Tk but there is a caveat its lvl 16 minimum due to being a lvl 8 infusion. so even you should have a composite through both of your Expanded elements at lvl15.

Pushing Infusion: 1 Burn. Bull rush to push target back 5 ft. . . wait that is it? oh +1 burn per extra 5ft. . . this infusion is total garbage. THE ONLY use for this could be to dump extra infusion specialization into to slow your opponent. its really bad.

TK Boomerang: 1 Burn. Ok infusion for 2 reasons; first you get your item back, second if you miss you can Standard action it next turn for no extra burn as if it didn't have TK boomerang.

Ok, so looking at these the only Substance infusion good for TK is Bowling, and that barely even usable and very costly. TK blast has 2 pretty decent form infusions in Foe and Many throw, though only Foe throw is commonly usable due to the late level many throw is at. Of the universal infusions the extended and extreme range are great. while Blade and whip series are decent for extra attacks.

3pp Tk blast infusions.
Bloody infusion: 1 Burn. Reflex negates, deal 1 pt bleeding damage per die of kinetic blast damage. Substance infusion, bleed doesn't stack if hit again. OMFG this is straight up better than Aetheric boost since it does the same damage as the boost EVERY ROUND until it is dealt with. Works great with Infusion Specialization (which composites don't)

Improved Bloody infusion: 4 Burn. Same as basic bloody but stacks with both regular bloody infusion and itself.


Infusions that are Force only.
Please remember however that these infusions have an inherent +2 cost to them due to the Force Composite which can't be reduced by Infusion Specialization! so these are EVEN MORE expensive than listed.

Force Hook: 2 Burn. Pull yourself to the target hit by your kinetic blast like Force hook charge spell with the range and damage of your kinetic blast. this is bad no it is GOD AWFUL. it is a Form infusion that means you can't combine this with extended range or the like. Ride the Blast is strictly a better movement talent due to more range and the ability to move through bars and the like, even then you have the pseudo flight talent at the same spell level which has double the range.

Disintegrating infusion: 4 Burn. Deal double force damage OR fortitude save deals 1/2 the simple blast damage. 0hp disintegrates target like the spell. also can be used to dispel force effects or destroy non-living matter up to a 10ft cube, but if you do either you take 1pt of Burn that can't be reduced by infusion specialization or gather power. oh god why? so it is all or nothing basically cause if the target saves you get jipped on the damage. on top of that it basically gives you near useless utility since you MUST take 1 pt of burn either from your internal buffer or your HP.


Other ways to boost using Burn.
Metakinesis. . . i mean really this is just good. Do note that Composite blasts are not Infusions so they don't get a reduction by Infusion Specialization. meaning they are on the same playing field as Metakinesis.
1 Burn. Empower: This is amazing and is so much better than the composite blasts, gather power to make it free.
2 Burn, Maximize: Another great one, ignore the dice and just do max damage. this is as powerful as most Composites due to "double damage" vs "max damage" since average damage is literally half of the dice value.
3 Burn, Empower + Mazimize: basically as good as a composite + empower.
3 Burn, Quicken: basically a composite but even better, when mixed with Infusions
4 Burn, Twin, honestly not as good as Quicken but you use the same kinetic blast twice for a standard action paying for further metakinesis or infusions only one time between both.

So lvl 16 makes Composites cost 1 Burn, while @ 19 you pick 1 metakinesis to reduce the cost by 1. both are good (personally 0pt Empower looks great to me), but the best of both would be a Maximized Composite for 2 Pts @ lvl 19 (Max chosen at lvl 19) because of Supercharge. Both Composites and Metakinesis fight for Gather Power's burn reduction since without it your going to take a lot of burn using either. SO while Aether has absolutely garbage composites that doesn't mean it should.


Part 4 Why Aether is said to have garbage composites, It's about the utility of Aether! [First party only]
So Aether gets the supposed honor of having the "most" utility, and while you look at it at face value it does have quite a bit with its Basic Talent being mage hand lets look at some of the other basic talents.
Basic Air: so big bonus vs targets using Scent is nice, +2 to save vs A LOT of horrible things. damn this is very nice.
Basic Earth: so basically Mage hand for eath works [Not metal though] PLUS you get a extra ability to search check things up to 30ft away. also nice
Basic Fire: Spark, Light, and Flare cantrips. ok those are also nice, even if not as good as mage hand.
Basic Void: anti-bright light, +4 to jump checks, or +50% carry capacity. ok this is VERY nice. even with base 10 that is an extra 50lbs of carry cap.
Basic Water: Ok so create water, purify water, wet/dry as presidigitation AND create water currents with SRT = to your Con. while the last isn't common is is VERY nice set of abilities!!
Basic Life: Tend to plants within 30ft, search brush and foliage areas like Earth, Detect Plantlife within 120ft. ok so it is the less useful set but then wood is kinda garbage anyway.

So all the utility talents are about even, faster mage hadn is great but the other abilities (except wood and maybe fire's) are on par.
So what can the each element do the others can't (or can't as well)
Aether: Temp HP [Basic Def], Ranged skill checks, Invisibility (not greater), Force wall/sphere, Spell and range attack deflection [high lvl], Lift heavy objects (and attack with them), most combat maneuvers at-will at range, pseudo-uncanny dodge, tracking/spying hits, make buildings out of force [capstone].

animate objects are shared with Earth and wood [and void via corpses], limited flight shared with void and fire; Healing line, suffocate and Covers are near universal. These won't be repeated.


Well i will say that does look like a lot but lets check in with the most common one (since everyone love flight)
AIR: Ranged miss chance [Basic Def], Message, distant message, SUPER distant message, ventriloquism, ghost sound, and voice alteration (all that is just 2 talents, not the def though), Control the weather [Capstone], Control winds, See through mist/fog, Spy via Mist/fog/ wind, Fly (as the spell) at will, Electricity resistance, Feather-fall at will, Evasion, Air/life bubble for breathable air, Super jumping, double reach with Air abilities and Air Blast, Gaseous Form, Haste!!!, Wind Wall, Store Elec dmg and discharge touch attack.

Well then that is quite a lot of utility in Air, while it is not all encompassing like using almost any skill at range or carrying a bunch of stuff there is a lot of great stuff in there, hell flight and evasion are really big ones TBH.


Earth: DR [Basic Def], Improved initiative and Lightning reflexes feats, climb speed, burrow speed!!, talk to rocks, ignore earth difficult terrain and bonus to CMB when on earth, Meld into stone, double durations longer than 1 rnd, retaliation dmg, make Earthquakes [Capstone], Move earth spell, summon elemental, Stone shape, tremorsense,

Message via element shared with fire and water.
Well that is a smaller list i will say though several of those abilities are as good or better than others, Earth and stone shape make earth and stone areas stupidly simple not to mention messing up traps easily. meanwhile Burrow speed may be one of the few move speeds better than flight, not to mention the pupper golems, definitely less overall utility than Aether though.

Fire: Retaliation dmg [Basic Def], fire/lava corridor/tunnel, sculpt fire, extra damage of fire blasts, see through smoke and flame, buff a mount/steed, extra retaliation dmg, Flame Trap, RESURRECTION! [Capstone] (if KO'd or 0hp, come back with 90-100hp for 2 burn), HEAT WAVE (sometimes 20% miss chance too), Negate Poison, Reduce Fire Resistance on target, smoke bomb!, Wall of Fire on withdraw/run action.

Endure elements, heat resist and cold resist shared with Water, while Fearie fire is shared with wood.
ok Admittiedly next to no utility here other than limited flight or very situational but damn that a an amazing capstone, with no Cooldown, so you could use All your Burn and internal buffer on that and just gather power your blasts.

Void: Negative Energy Resistance, % chance to negate Sneak attacks and crits, AND +1 will save bonus vs emotion effects [Basic Def], Nondetection, Bonus Vs curses AND remove Curse AND suppress curse if normally can't be removed that way, Extra darkvision, See in darkness ability, Reverse gravity [directional and capstone], negative energy healing line [undead and the like], no breath ability, Halt Undead.

While there ain't much here that is in part because its not in the original book, but what is in there is nice, see in darkness is great, no breath means you can live underwater or in space, limited flight, corpse puppet, undead healing, and that Defense is magnificent,. (gets some good stuff via 3pp to help with less books)

Water: Armor/ Shield Bonus [Basic Def], COLD AoE, Willing target suspended animation, Airwalk like iceman, Walk across ice and water without slipping, sculpt ice like sculpt stone spell, 20% miss chance, grease spell at will, Tsunami spell [Capstone], Disguise Self, Control water, increase movespeed via slipstream, waterwalk, Tremorsense in water.

That is an interesting list and a lot of utility, the Def alone gives you armor when you have none or a good Shield bonus, airwalk to cross gaps, 20% miss chance is amazing, grease is great, as is disguise self then you get the amazing movement bonuses via slipstream, can't forget that water has the healing line as well.

Wood: Natural AC bonus [Basic Def], Climb speed in forested area, plant army made of catapults [capstone], Commune with plants, Commune with Nature, See through foliage, bonus vs toxins and neutralize poisons, Nonlethal blasts, Tree shape, earthwalk-like on soft surfaces, Wood Shape, Retaliation damage, tree stride teleport, warp wood, plant growth, wood golem soldiers [lvl8!], woodland stride, forest friend.

wow that is actually a large variety of utility abilities the problem with them is that unless you have access to a forest you get kneecapped with when you can use them. but then 1st party wood is jipped hard overall.

soo if you look at the utility Aether and Air are both possibly the most utility powerful, Aether could be said to be in the lead just cause there is a bit more you can do with things like TK finesse and raw lifting. Water and Earth come in 3rd and 4th both set the middpoint for utility. meanwhile void and wood get 5th and 6th due to their utility being a bit more niche and fire is last just due to lack of versatility.

SO looking at all of this it is obvious that Air is the primary element overall, 5 composites (compared to 4 most others have), great utility, the only true flight, great infusions, etc. Air really doesn't have a downside other than maybe an only "good" capstone. so why do Aether (and void) get totally jipped out of their composites?

Well i have a solution to that based on 2 things Negative Admixture (and positive) as well as the Energized Weapon Infusion. If you think about it Telekinetic blast doens't allow you to use the effects of the item launched except when using it as thrown. meanwhile Negative and Positive Admix give both a composite using any other energy infusion. you see where i'm going here?

Energized Telekinetic blast
Element(s) aether; Type composite blast (Sp); Level —; Burn 2 Prerequisite(s) Telekinetic blast, any other energy simple blast
Blast Type: physical; Damage see text;

You sheathe a nearby unattended object in a nimbus of energy and launch it at a single foe as a ranged attack. The object must weigh no more than 5 pounds per kineticist level you possess. If the attack hits, the target and the thrown object each take the blast’s damage. Since the object is enfolded in strands of aether, even if you use this power on a magic weapon or other unusual object, the attack doesn’t use any of the magic weapon’s bonuses or effects; it simply deals your blast damage. Unlike the basic Telekinetic blast you cannot loosen the strands of Aether. The damage is half slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning and half the chosen energy blasts type.
Note: This composite can only use infusions that could be used with Telekinetic Infusion. (If a DM requires a tax suggest using Energize weapon Infusion as a tax)

thoughts?

death390
2020-11-28, 08:19 AM
As a side note the really bad composites should be changed.

Force blast 2d4 damage
Aetheric Boost +3 per die
Gravic boost +3 per die

or something similar. the three of them just do not do anything other than waste burn a this point. 2d4 would be enough that its an "increase" (5.5 average rather than the normal 7 from 2d6) while the other two would a least give nearly average damage from an extra d6.