Serini's diary, some fridge logic

[Dr.Zero]

Follow me, here.

Serini trusted enough that no one could have access to her diary and decrypt it, so much that she put the locations of all the gates on it[1].

But, even trusting her diary so much to put the whole multiverse in danger by simply stating the location of the gates[2], in her own diary she didn't explain her inner thoughts which brought her to build the tomb the way it is (which would practically explain its defenses), which (your inner thoughts) is what is the main thing you'll put in a diary.
Sounds quite contradictory.

[1] Either that or she thought: "well, who cares about if someone else finds the other gates?"
[2] If team Evil didn't spectacularly fail every single time before, the Plan would be completed already. And the DO actually doesn't wants to end the multiverse, true. But another creature -a woobie destroyer of worlds- could wish to do so.

[Fyraltari]

The most likely explanation is that she dtopped writing her diary some time after Kraagor died and before she really got to nuilding her defenses.

[Lex]

She did put her inner thoughts in the diary. In the page we saw, she commented on Dorukan ejng in love with Lirian and drew hearts next to Girard's picture. For Kragoor's Tomb, she could have written that she decided to honor her friend, whose sacrifice was going to be erased from history, by making a dungeon filled with strong monsters since he valued strength over everything and that would have expressed her feelings perfectly, without the need to give a detailed description of how the dungeon works.

[Synesthesy]

However, being Serini a chaotic rogue, she could also have written some lies in her own diary, if she wanted to or if she expected it to be found by evil guys. Maybe reading it you think that you should act in some way to unlock the gate, but there is something hidden that will defend it.

[Metastachydium]

However, being Serini a chaotic rogue, she could also have written some lies in her own diary, if she wanted to or if she expected it to be found by evil guys. Maybe reading it you think that you should act in some way to unlock the gate, but there is something hidden that will defend it.

Since the most crucial details (i.e. the exact coordinates of each Gate) were included (no lies, no misleading red herrings, no trickery), I am somewhat skeptical about that.

[NerdyKris]

The only page of the diary we've seen, if I'm not mistaken, was written during the adventure, while they were just sealing the gates. It might not include the details of how they built the fortresses, Xykon might have simply deduced that from the fact that they'd already seen two such fortresses when he said that. There might very well be a diary that includes the details of Kraagor's gate (especially if she needed to entrust it's care to someone after her death), but it's separate from the book Xykon found.

Xykon was also only able to find the location of one gate when decrypting it the first time. They had to go back and decrypt the other three after failing at Dorukon's gate. Which means it might also just be a matter of Xykon and Redcloak not having bothered to decrpyt that passage once they had the remaining gate locations, especially since the first two gates they arrived at were fairly simple in their defense. They might not have realized there's a twist to Serini's plan, since they haven't run into any before.

[AceOfFools]

Serini probably wanted there to be a way for someone to find the gates, in the incredibly likely event there needed to be some adventures to save the world centered on the gates. The unlikely heroes would need some way to find them.

She encrypted them as a security measure to prevent a casual perusal by someone evil from recovering the coordinates, but ultimately that’s a risk you have to take when dealing with this sort of the end of the world stuff.

It’s not like there was an organization she trusted to carry the secret in perpetuity without becoming corrupt.

[Metastachydium]

The only page of the diary we've seen, if I'm not mistaken, was written during the adventure, while they were just sealing the gates. It might not include the details of how they built the fortresses, Xykon might have simply deduced that from the fact that they'd already seen two such fortresses when he said that. There might very well be a diary that includes the details of Kraagor's gate (especially if she needed to entrust it's care to someone after her death), but it's separate from the book Xykon found.

Xykon was also only able to find the location of one gate when decrypting it the first time. They had to go back and decrypt the other three after failing at Dorukon's gate. Which means it might also just be a matter of Xykon and Redcloak not having bothered to decrpyt that passage once they had the remaining gate locations, especially since the first two gates they arrived at were fairly simple in their defense. They might not have realized there's a twist to Serini's plan, since they haven't run into any before.

The thing is, we know much of the diary is probably not (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) encrypted, so Team Evil had reason to believe that whatever that is should be important, so I would not assume any information of that sort was left alone and unnoticed.

[mormon_soldier]

Do we know where Xykon found the diary?

[Fyraltari]

No, we do not. This has led to some speculation regarding wether Xykon killed her or not.

[Riftwolf]

Do we know the diary is encrypted in the cipher sense? My Headcanon was that Serini's diary documented her journey, and if you knew certain landmarks or starting points, you could discern the end locations (which Xykon did because he knew where Lirians gate was). I can't remember if there's a strip/print page where the code is discussed in detail, so I don't know if there's anything to refute this.

[Fyraltari]

You can't work coordinates out of descriptions.

[ijuinkun]

You can't work coordinates out of descriptions.

There's also the matter that the general location of Soon's Gate would be obvious from the briefest of descriptions rather than coordinates--"It's in Azure City".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The most likely explanation is that she dtopped writing her diary some time after Kraagor died and before she really got to nuilding her defenses.

Or she continued, but she run out of pages somewhere between Kraagor's death and the arrival of the contruction crew, started a new diary book, and Xykon only has the first of the two.

GW

[Dr.Zero]

The most likely explanation is that she dtopped writing her diary some time after Kraagor died and before she really got to nuilding her defenses.

At this point this is the most working explanation, I think.

Even if now I don't remember if the "the dungeon will have strong monsters" is from her diary, but, if it is, the whole thing sounds quite a lucky coincidence (it means that she had a second thought about the defenses exactly after she stopped to write her diary).


She did put her inner thoughts in the diary. In the page we saw, she commented on Dorukan ejng in love with Lirian and drew hearts next to Girard's picture. For Kragoor's Tomb, she could have written that she decided to honor her friend, whose sacrifice was going to be erased from history, by making a dungeon filled with strong monsters since he valued strength over everything and that would have expressed her feelings perfectly, without the need to give a detailed description of how the dungeon works.

Granted, you don't put a blueprint in the diary, but the reasoning yes.

"I will honor my friend creating a dungeon with strong monsters. Even though I want to be ultra safe and I will add some typical rogueish trap, blocking the access to the ones who use exclusively brute force. Tee-hee"

This is exactly the kind of reasoning you write down in a diary.


However, being Serini a chaotic rogue, she could also have written some lies in her own diary, if she wanted to or if she expected it to be found by evil guys. Maybe reading it you think that you should act in some way to unlock the gate, but there is something hidden that will defend it.

As I explained, writing down the coordinates of the other gates in the diary and then lying about her own dungeon makes no sense. At least if she wasn't the kind of person "screw them, just let make safe only my own dungeon."

Even more if one thinks that hiding some coordinates is incredibly simply: you double them, writing a couple on the diary and a couple in another place (like a medallion or a box you hide under a tree in the garden) so that you can find the true coordinates only summing the couples.

like
gate 1: diary 1: 20 North, 120 East; medallion/box 1: -50, 30 (true coordinates 30 South, 150 East)
...

That way not only if one doesn't get both the couples he can't find the place, but if one gets his dirty hands only on the diary, he will end up in a totally random place, finding nothing and, since he doesn't know about the trick, will probably think that the diary is just full of made up stories.

[Gurgeh]

Even before we get into alignments not being a straitjacket (consider how differently Roy and Durkon, two characters with the exact same alignment, approach problems) - there's also no evidence that Serini was chaotic.

[NerdyKris]

Even if now I don't remember if the "the dungeon will have strong monsters" is from her diary, but, if it is, the whole thing sounds quite a lucky coincidence (it means that she had a second thought about the defenses exactly after she stopped to write her diary).


The description of her dungeon came from Shojo. As far as we know Xykon and Redcloak have no idea about how the gates were being guarded. They just know who's guarding each one. Xykon didn't know that the sapphire held the actual gate until Ochul went to destroy it, and he didn't seem to understand how Dorukan's gate was protected, since he kept sending goblins in to test it.

[Ionathus]

You can't work coordinates out of descriptions.

My increasingly convoluted Thieves' Cant messages beg to differ.

[snowblizz]

The description of her dungeon came from Shojo. As far as we know Xykon and Redcloak have no idea about how the gates were being guarded. They just know who's guarding each one. Xykon didn't know that the sapphire held the actual gate until Ochul went to destroy it, and he didn't seem to understand how Dorukan's gate was protected, since he kept sending goblins in to test it.

Actually Miko is to blame. She almost got the sapphire when killing 'shojo, which 'hojo commnets on, and team evil catches as they can stll hear 'miko's scryed behind being caried out.

[Hopeless]

Just a thought but what if everything was set up by Serini to finally end the world?

What if she sent her diary to X deliberately so he would ruin everything her group accomplished.

That marker on the statue tends to suggest things went downhill so what if THAT is the case and the Order is about to meet the reason for why Team Evil has gotten so far?

Could Belkar sacrificing himself be the impetus to bring Serini out of her psychotic breakdown enough to recognize the mistake she made and finally explain what actually happened back then and what is really going on?

Or is the next arc going to be the Order travelling into the Snarl's world to confront a god killing eldritch abomination in the ruins of the First World?!!:smalleek:

[KorvinStarmast]

Or is the next arc going to be the Order travelling into the Snarl's world to confront a god killing eldritch abomination in the ruins of the First World?!!:smalleek:
Nope.
The Order isn't powerful enough for that; remember how quickly the first world ended ... a matter of hours.
When Loki refers to something as "the god-killing abomination" that's not quite something a party of six can handle.

[Grey Watcher]

Do we know the diary is encrypted in the cipher sense? My Headcanon was that Serini's diary documented her journey, and if you knew certain landmarks or starting points, you could discern the end locations (which Xykon did because he knew where Lirians gate was). I can't remember if there's a strip/print page where the code is discussed in detail, so I don't know if there's anything to refute this.

It's implied that it's a cipher somehow. When Xykon first talks about to the diary, he mentions having to first translate the location of Lirian's Gate INTO the code in order to crack it.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Or is the next arc going to be the Order travelling into the Snarl's world to confront a god killing eldritch abomination in the ruins of the First World?!!:smalleek:
Nope.
The Order isn't powerful enough for that; remember how quickly the first world ended ... a matter of hours.
When Loki refers to something as "the god-killing abomination" that's not quite something a party of six can handle.

Maybe if this was final fantasy, they could surpass the gods, kill the snarl all the while inflicting max 9999 damage or more if they had the bypass damage limit ability. I'm inclined to agree with you.

Though, a story where the world ends, and the order does make it to the 1st world to confront the snarl who has evolved to some degree and isn't the killing machine it appears to be could be a thing.

A simple story ending would be "the order succeeds. the snarl is sealed. happily ever after the end."

A much different and convoluted story would be "snarl falls. everyone dies and is erased...the end?" and the people who are killed by the snarl aren't erased but absorbed and made immortal inside the world of the snarl. no pain no conflict. nothing. The snarl lacking the ability to communicate outside its world can only "attack" and upon destruction, its victims are instead dragged into its world, with the snarl acting as dungeon master. playing with its victims on a whim, and doing as it pleases.

If this were the case, I guess the only way to beat it would be the likes of new godly might like the purple god the dark one making a pantheon to combat it, but thats getting ahead of myself.

Whether you want a more simple ending, or something more convoluted is up to you, but maybe a simpler ending would be best. No use jumping the shark after all.

[Edea]

Xykon's the final boss, not the Snarl.

Now, Xykon might do something to the Snarl in order to harness it prior to the big fight (likely after Redcloak gets thoroughly hoisted by his own undead petard), but it'll still be Xykon. Such a situation might play out like Final Fantasy 6, with the Snarl taking the place of the Warring Triad and Xykon taking the place of Kefka (and Redcloak taking the place of Gestahl).

Also, I think said fight should happen in Xykon's astral fortress, not at Kraagor's tomb. Its appearance has 'final dungeon' written all over it.

[Goblin_Priest]

We still need to somehow reconcile the "there's a planet and lots of water beyond the rifts" we see in Azure City and the Desert, and the "there's a powerful threat inside that can lash out" from the desert, the crayons, and the gods.

Why is there a planet with lots of water beyond the rift, and why don't the gods know anything about it?

[KorvinStarmast]

and why don't the gods know anything about it? That seems to me to be the key question, per Belkar in strip 900
Maybe someone's been yanking everyone's chain (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html)

[Metastachydium]

That seems to me to be the key question, per Belkar in strip 900
Maybe someone's been yanking everyone's chain (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html)

I'm not sure Belkar is correct in assuming that there is a specific someone doing that: apparently it's not the gods (since they seem to be none the wiser), and I can't quite see who else would have that kind of power.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I'm not sure Belkar is correct in assuming that there is a specific someone doing that: apparently it's not the gods (since they seem to be none the wiser), and I can't quite see who else would have that kind of power.
We don't know who gave the backstory about the Snarl's creation to the Sapphire Guard. So it could have been the 12 gods, or just one of them, like Rat or Pig, It also could have been Marduk, or Odin or Loki. But it almost certainly wasn't information supplied to them from all of the gods. So it's quite possible that some key information about the Snarl's genesis or possibly nature is known to only one god. So at the very least, it's possible that one god is "tricking" the others by allowing them to continue to believe an incomplete account of the Snarl's genesis and basic nature.

But, without any named characters having a means to get that information into the story, I kind of doubt that a god is going to be the source of a twist regarding the Snarl's nature at this point. Even if one of the gods is "tricking" people by allowing a not-complete account of the Snarl to propagate, there would have to be a way for that "trick" to mean something to the story. The "trick" would have to be worth maintaining over the many, many worlds that have existed in all this time. And I just don't see how that could be the case here. Granted, we know there's a bugbear shaman out there who doesn't worship The Dark One, but I'm still skeptical of this idea.

[Hekko]

There's also the matter that the general location of Soon's Gate would be obvious from the briefest of descriptions rather than coordinates--"It's in Azure City".

Was the city there, named that way, when the Scribblers were there? The palace and the throne room were certainly built around the rift.

I also think that Serini may have included the locations of the gates in her diary BEFORE the party disbanded, so whatever defenses she knew about and decided to mention could be in a different part of it. Do we know if they only visited each rift once as a party (to seal each rift)? Or would they visit some of them several times, to research them so they could come up with the sealing spell(s) - and then, after they disbanded, each headed for the rift they were assigned to build its defences.


I'm not sure Belkar is correct in assuming that there is a specific someone doing that: apparently it's not the gods (since they seem to be none the wiser), and I can't quite see who else would have that kind of power.

The Dark One? Perhaps he put in some research of his own? He's a god and we know nearly nothing about what he's doing around nowish.

[hamishspence]

Was the city there, named that way, when the Scribblers were there?


You can see a mass of blue buildings in the crayon panel with the Azure City rift:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html


And Soon talks about them being on a trip away from Azure City, in the previous strip:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html

[mormon_soldier]

Do we know if they only visited each rift once as a party (to seal each rift)? Or would they visit some of them several times, to research them so they could come up with the sealing spell(s) - and then, after they disbanded, each headed for the rift they were assigned to build its defences.


In 276 panel 7, it says they traveled to each rift to keep them from being used for evil. Then in panel 9, they 'seal' the rift, killing Kraagor. Panel 11, Lirun and Dorukan research the gates. And then in 277, they split up to defend the gates.

I'm not sure if sealing the rifts is part of keeping them from evil, but it looks like they traveled to each one at least twice.

[Hekko]

You can see a mass of blue buildings in the crayon panel with the Azure City rift:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

Ah, thank you. So the city was there (not just quite reaching the rift with the palace yet).


In 276 panel 7, it says they traveled to each rift to keep them from being used for evil. Then in panel 9, they 'seal' the rift, killing Kraagor. Panel 11, Lirun and Dorukan research the gates. And then in 277, they split up to defend the gates.

I'm not sure if sealing the rifts is part of keeping them from evil, but it looks like they traveled to each one at least twice.

Ah, I need to reread everything, I should have known this. So Serini knew the locations and that some nutcases wanted to keep the rifts unsealed before the defenses of each rift were made. She could have noted each location in her diary when they found the rift, but decided not to record the exact mechanics of the defences of Kraagor's Tomb one.

Or she ran out of space / lost the diary before finishing it, so that secret is encoded in the next volume.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm not sure Belkar is correct in assuming that there is a specific someone doing that: apparently it's not the gods (since they seem to be none the wiser), and I can't quite see who else would have that kind of power. Belkar has acted many times in this strip as the teller of inconvenient truths. Chains being yanked by (a) the gods and (b) the author are both rational interpretations of Belkar's observation.

[Metastachydium]

The Dark One? Perhaps he put in some research of his own? He's a god and we know nearly nothing about what he's doing around nowish.

Unlikely. The Dark One was never there when the Snarl was loose and he was never there when it was locked away. I can't quite see how could he know more about it than the rest of the gods.


Belkar has acted many times in this strip as the teller of inconvenient truths. Chains being yanked by (a) the gods and (b) the author are both rational interpretations of Belkar's observation.

I don't think that was supposed to be a meta reference. As for the gods, you might be right, mostly because there's no such thing as the gods. That Thor does not know something means nothing. Some rival divine faction may very well know better (I'm looking at you, Tiamat).
(Also, Thor could be a lying, double-crossing Evil fellow.)

[jayem]

You can see a mass of blue buildings in the crayon panel with the Azure City rift:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html


And Soon talks about them being on a trip away from Azure City, in the previous strip:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html

Though interestingly enough, that means Soon came back to discover the rift in his hometown.
And quite how, Girard gave him false co-ordinates.

Personally I think the Azure City account is true and accurate, but 'from a certain point of view'.
"We retire and build a stronghold as we see fit. [No interference] As far as we know no 2 have seen each other..."
"Serini wasn't the type for retiring, she decided she would build a tomb for Kraagor and fill it with the nastiest monsters in the world, to reflect his belief in the power of physical might"

It doesn't say Serini only defended the gate with the nastiest monsters (it doesn't even say she defended the gate with them, but we've had a decoy gate before)

And it doesn't say they didn't all covertly see/deal with Serini. It's interesting to see retiring from the party, being the previous context for retiring. On the other hand here no-interference seems pretty decisive, granted setting up the monitor requires at least one more round of communication.

[Riftwolf]

I'm thinking that Thor and Odins exchange might have been to answer the question raised by Odins esoteric statement at the Godsmoot, specifically 'Do the Gods know about the Rift Planet?'. Odins 'yarn winding yarn' could be read as 'maybe Odin does', but later on we find the answer is 'Odin and Thor don't'. It adds to my reading of Oots as a story about acting on incomplete information; no one has God's-Eye view of the story, not even the Gods.

Belkars statement is more about him than the story; he expects someone is to blame for misleading them, rather than people saying what they thought was true but was incomplete (bear in mind the origin story in the Scribbles wasn't entirely debunked, it just missed out a large chunk of the story).

[KorvinStarmast]

It adds to my reading of Oots as a story about acting on incomplete information; no one has God's-Eye view of the story, not even the Gods. I have that take on the deities of OoTS as well.

If I go back to my old reading of Bullfinch's Mythology, I think that the Moirae weaving (or the Norns if you go further North) together the future of the world's people would fit reasonably well with how OoTS pantheons work. Not sure if that's what is alluded to in Odin's 'yarn spinning yarn' and I am even more unsure now that Book 7 begins with that "snarl/ball of yarn" illustration with Mr Scruffy.

[NerdyKris]

Though interestingly enough, that means Soon came back to discover the rift in his hometown.
And quite how, Girard gave him false co-ordinates.


The coordinates for the rifts with distinct locations probably just weren't faked. Red Mountain and Azure City probably wouldn't be possible since they're major landmarks. Lirian's gate was probably also known to him since he was in the area of his own accord. Girard's gate was easy to fake because it was in a desert, where you'd need an exact location to find anything, due to the lack of landmarks.

In fact we know the correct coordinates were in Serini's diary since Xykon arrived at the gate without any issue. We can infer that Girard only wanted to keep Soon away from his gate, not all of the gates or every member of the team.

[Metastachydium]

In fact we know the correct coordinates were in Serini's diary since Xykon arrived at the gate without any issue. We can infer that Girard only wanted to keep Soon away from his gate, not all of the gates or every member of the team.

No need to infer anything. We know for certain that Girard gave Serini the true coordinates (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html).

[Dr.Zero]

Though interestingly enough, that means Soon came back to discover the rift in his hometown.

Yes, quite a contrived coincidence.

In a narrative sense, it probably can be interpreted with Soon being the protagonist/hero of his own story (like Roy is of this one).
It's typical that, after defeating all the the dangers but the last one, the hero discovers that the last one threats his own home (or family).

In a meta-sense, maybe Rich at that point was still adjusting the complete plot (specially the need for one of the gates to be in Azure City to justify Xykon need to conquer it) on the fly.

[Goblin_Priest]

Maybe the Snarl is also subject to Belief, and the Dark One's belief that the Snarl will user a goblin utopia is molding the Snarl into an utopia.

[KorvinStarmast]

Maybe the Snarl is also subject to Belief, and the Dark One's belief that the Snarl will us{h}er a goblin utopia is molding the Snarl into a utopia. The world inside the snarl being this nascent utopia - is that your direction of thought?

[Silly Name]

On the topic of Serini writing down the coordinates: keep in mind we don't know how she encrypted them. She may very well have hidden the information in a way that isn't immediately apparent, but which Xykon figured out.

What I'm saying, it's one thing to write down the info using Caesar cipher, which would immediately catch the eye as it produces a jumble of nonsense, and it's another to hide the information within the text using more subtle methods.
After all, as a Rogue, Serini would know Thieves' Cant, which is a secret "language" based on slang and innuendos.

The page we saw imples pretty heavily that Serini wrote the diary during the adventures, so originally her keeping a note of the coordinates may have simply been a failsafe if they ever needed to return to those places - before they split up and decided to try to keep the Gates a secret.

[Metastachydium]

originally her keeping a note of the coordinates may have simply been a failsafe if they ever needed to return to those places - before they split up and decided to try to keep the Gates a secret.

I am skeptical about that. All mapmaking duties were delegated to the guy with two ranger levels (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html) rather than Serini. It would appear that she just jotted down the locations for her own amusement (unless of course Serini is Evil).

[jayem]

The coordinates for the rifts with distinct locations probably just weren't faked. Red Mountain and Azure City probably wouldn't be possible since they're major landmarks. Lirian's gate was probably also known to him since he was in the area of his own accord. Girard's gate was easy to fake because it was in a desert, where you'd need an exact location to find anything, due to the lack of landmarks.

In fact we know the correct coordinates were in Serini's diary since Xykon arrived at the gate without any issue. We can infer that Girard only wanted to keep Soon away from his gate, not all of the gates or every member of the team.

That makes some sense. Girard would be motivated to pick the gate he had the advantage over Soon on. And it does make sense for the arrogant Paladin to delegate 'mapmaking' until relationships break down (at which point Girard is motivated to fake the data, and doesn't have to replace original data).

It does show that Girard was clearly chummy with Serini.
I wonder whether Serini's relationship with Soon was the same as Soon's with Girard or Serini's with Girard.

Further observation, Girard rants "It should have been you ... coward", but Soon has already lost a loved one to the rifts (this is used against Soon by Dorugan in #277, but what they feel now he was already feeling), also where is Lilian?

[Keltest]

Girard, at least, seems to have at best been operating on some incredibly wrong assumptions about paladins, and at worst was completely delusional by the time the schism happened. Looking for solid logic in his actions seems misguided.

[Silly Name]

Girard, at least, seems to have at best been operating on some incredibly wrong assumptions about paladins, and at worst was completely delusional by the time the schism happened. Looking for solid logic in his actions seems misguided.

Agreed: Girard was dumb enough to think, after years of adventuring with Soon, that him and/or his paladins would break their vows intentionally. He was blinded by his dislike of Soon, and acted irrationally.

The reason Girard picked his Gate, though, was that Serini suggested everyone would watch over the gate closest to their homelands - which of course must have been "good" for Girard, since, in his mind, it allowed him an easy way to misdirect Soon, as well as a way to rely on his family.

[Metastachydium]

That makes some sense. Girard would be motivated to pick the gate he had the advantage over Soon on. And it does make sense for the arrogant Paladin to delegate 'mapmaking' until relationships break down (at which point Girard is motivated to fake the data, and doesn't have to replace original data).


(How exactly is delegating mapmaking duties to the party ranger a sign of arrogance?)

[ebarde]

To be fair, paladins can take really liberal interpretations of their oaths. And not looking into other gates as long as they're not being threatened does offer a lot of wiggle room.

Girard's defenses were still for sure the worst out of all the ones we've seen so far, and I can definetly see his weird family cult becoming the antagonists of some adventuring party.

I mean, investigating mysterious vanishings relating to wandering sorcerers sound like a plot hook if I've ever saw one.

[Dr.Zero]

To be fair, paladins can take really liberal interpretations of their oaths. And not looking into other gates as long as they're not being threatened does offer a lot of wiggle room.

Girard's defenses were still for sure the worst out of all the ones we've seen so far, and I can definetly see his weird family cult becoming the antagonists of some adventuring party.

I mean, investigating mysterious vanishings relating to wandering sorcerers sound like a plot hook if I've ever saw one.

Which makes one wonder why they didn't send in "mission" only women. Who could get easily pregnant and take with them the (to be born) baby without the male "random encounter" even knowing.

[Kelenius]

To be fair, paladins can take really liberal interpretations of their oaths. And not looking into other gates as long as they're not being threatened does offer a lot of wiggle room.

Girard's defenses were still for sure the worst out of all the ones we've seen so far, and I can definetly see his weird family cult becoming the antagonists of some adventuring party.

I mean, investigating mysterious vanishings relating to wandering sorcerers sound like a plot hook if I've ever saw one.

I don't think their defences were the worst. It took a combination of an epic level spell only known to a long-dead soul-spliced wizard and then a very thorough investigation by the order with some lucky coincidences to get to the gate. It took Nale months of casting (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) to just narrow down the location. Xykon was only able to get directly to the gate because of the diary. And even with all defenders wiped out, it still took considerable effort for the teams to reach the gate, and then linear guild got tricked and almost gave up looking for it in the pyramid. The defences weren't bad, they just got really unlucky.

[hungrycrow]

I don't think their defences were the worst. It took a combination of an epic level spell only known to a long-dead soul-spliced wizard and then a very thorough investigation by the order with some lucky coincidences to get to the gate. It took Nale months of casting (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) to just narrow down the location. Xykon was only able to get directly to the gate because of the diary. And even with all defenders wiped out, it still took considerable effort for the teams to reach the gate, and then linear guild got tricked and almost gave up looking for it in the pyramid. The defences weren't bad, they just got really unlucky.

Xykon probably would have steamrolled the defenses even if Girard's family were still alive. It sounds like the main weakness of all the gates was actually Serini writing their locations down though.

[hroþila]

Xykon probably would have steamrolled the defenses even if Girard's family were still alive. It sounds like the main weakness of all the gates was actually Serini writing their locations down though.
Xykon hasn't been able to steamroll the defenses of any Gate so far. I don't see why Girard's Gate should have been different.

[Dr.Zero]

I suppose even Tarquin would be able to steamroll most of the Pyramid, with his ring of True Seeing.
I expect nothing less from Xykon and Redcloak (even because RC, as a cleric, has Truee Seeing.

[hungrycrow]

Xykon hasn't been able to steamroll the defenses of any Gate so far. I don't see why Girard's Gate should have been different.

Xykon is immune to mind-affecting, and Redcloak has true-seeing. Both have fairly high will saves. That neuters the main gimmick of the pyramid. All that would be left would be some weak traps and a bunch of mid-level sorcerers relying on their back-up spells. And the last double bluff probably wouldn't fool Redcloak.

[Ionathus]

I keep coming back to that issue -- True Sight would negate basically all the powerful stuff in the dungeon -- and my conclusion is that there has to be something more going on. Some spell that could've beaten/subverted True Sight, or a backup plan for creatures unaffected by illusions. Girard was a paranoid old jerk, but I can't see him being so deluded that he'd leave the biggest gap in any gate's defenses.

Had the Draketooths been alive, I suspect we might've seen more non-illusion tricks.

[Kelenius]

Xykon is immune to mind-affecting, and Redcloak has true-seeing. Both have fairly high will saves. That neuters the main gimmick of the pyramid. All that would be left would be some weak traps and a bunch of mid-level sorcerers relying on their back-up spells. And the last double bluff probably wouldn't fool Redcloak.

They also have no rogue, and the lair is full of traps. Plus, we don't know what those sorcerers are capable of besides illusions and mind-affecting. It's their main schtick, but probably not the only one.

[Goblin_Priest]

Which makes one wonder why they didn't send in "mission" only women. Who could get easily pregnant and take with them the (to be born) baby without the male "random encounter" even knowing.

That halves your breeding population, though.

Furthermore, males can conceive concomitant offspring.

So I guess that depended on what their goals were. Female genitors can do the whole thing more easily and discreetly, as you say so. Male genitors can conceive a lot more, though.

Additional considerations: Not sending the males on such missions means that they either have to live in abstinence, or conceive incestuously. Not taking in any offspring they generate also doesn't mean that the mothers won't be looking for them. Unequal responsibilities could also weaken intra-familial solidarity, making the females feel an additional burden not requested of their male counterparts.

And there's probably a ton of other reasons that could explain it.

[Throknor]

I keep coming back to that issue -- True Sight would negate basically all the powerful stuff in the dungeon -- and my conclusion is that there has to be something more going on. Some spell that could've beaten/subverted True Sight, or a backup plan for creatures unaffected by illusions. Girard was a paranoid old jerk, but I can't see him being so deluded that he'd leave the biggest gap in any gate's defenses.

Had the Draketooths been alive, I suspect we might've seen more non-illusion tricks.

On the one hand I think everyone is forgetting the heavily trapped door (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0867.html). All of the other routes in the maze may have been to similar ones before the different illusion trapped passages. On the other hand, I'm not sure how the linear guild got past one. Either there was only the one door now disarmed and more mazework afterwards such that they still entered the main chamber through separate passages. Or succubi are high-level rogues as well; I don't know that in either direction.

While true-sight would have allowed Redcloak to see the door for what it was it wouldn't have helped him disarm it. He and Xykon would have had to deal with everything it spit out.

Also, there were the observation passages. While more illusions wouldn't have helped any sorcerers watching might have other tricks up their sleeves. If nothing else there are probably spells that would let them re-route passages or otherwise divert from the main chamber. They may even have had a fail-safe that collapsed the entire chamber with stone. All we see are what are left as un-manned obstacles; even Rich has pointed out the defenses were not designed to operate without the Draketooths being alive.

[hungrycrow]

The original plan for the defenses as I see it, is that the Draketooths would support the main trapped corridors from the observation tunnels, using illusions to make the traps actually effective. If someone could see through illusions, they could use dispel magic or switch to other spells. Unfortunately Xykon and Redcloak are probably too high level for them to dispel easily, and Xykon can phase through walls. Without help from someone around Xykon's level, they'd just get slaughtered.

The last resort against bad guys with true sight was the phantasm, which wouldn't effect Xykon and which Redcloak would resist pretty easily.

[Goblin_Priest]

The original plan for the defenses as I see it, is that the Draketooths would support the main trapped corridors from the observation tunnels, using illusions to make the traps actually effective. If someone could see through illusions, they could use dispel magic or switch to other spells. Unfortunately Xykon and Redcloak are probably too high level for them to dispel easily, and Xykon can phase through walls. Without help from someone around Xykon's level, they'd just get slaughtered.

The last resort against bad guys with true sight was the phantasm, which wouldn't effect Xykon and which Redcloak would resist pretty easily.

Walking around with anti-magic zone or, at the very least, True Seeing would probably nullify quite a lot of the defenses. Not /all/ of them, but the mechanical traps weren't that much of a threat either.

[Ironsmith]

Walking around with anti-magic zone or, at the very least, True Seeing would probably nullify quite a lot of the defenses. Not /all/ of them, but the mechanical traps weren't that much of a threat either.

True Seeing would only effect things like illusionary walls or invisble creatures; Girard's Epic Illusion would likely be unaffected.

[Jasdoif]

True Seeing would only effect things like illusionary walls or invisble creatures; Girard's Epic Illusion would likely be unaffected.It's not epic.

It's not Epic, it's simply a 9th-level illusion—since there aren't many 9th-level illusions in core, there's conceptual room for one that is pretty heavy-hitting that would still be way above anything Eugene ever tried. My closest rules-based analogy was Microcosm, which is a 9th level psionic power. This spell doesn't seem to have a hit point limit, but it does offer a possible means of escape through internal realization. Because, you know, story.That said, the referenced microcosm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm) basically disconnects its targets' senses; enhancing those senses with true seeing seems unlikely to have any effect.

[Dr.Zero]

It's not epic.
That said, the referenced microcosm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm) basically disconnects its targets' senses; enhancing those senses with true seeing seems unlikely to have any effect.

Which is, indeed, the most important exception coming to my mind when I said that, for example, even Tarquin could steamroll most of the Pyramid.

Aside that, Xykon would simply be immune to the whole thing, being an undead.

[Fyraltari]

Redcloak would have fallen for Girard's spell hook, line and sinker however.

[Dr.Zero]

Redcloak would have fallen for Girard's spell hook, line and sinker however.

I didn't want to dwell too much on it, because then we have to make way too many supposition.

Rich says that you can get out of the spell via realization.
But that required a lot of turns to both Elan and Nale (and I guess Tarquin would be able too in more or less the same amount of time).
Which means they would be easily killed way before reaching the realization. Which is a thing Roy pointed out.

But this begs the question: has the spell some saving throw?
Microcosm has a tight condition regarding hp to work at all, which is way low for AOE version (max 30hp per character involved, which means that with a 9th level spell you'd be lucky to affect a couple of characters in a group half your level, at least if you've not roughed them a bit before).
If Girard's spell has neither such a condition (and it hasn't, else it couldn't work on toots) nor a saving throw, it would be way OP, which could be used to kill enemies way over your level.
On the other hand, if it has a ST a lot of high level characters with the right class or equipment would simply be probably safe nonetheless.

To return to your point: either it has no st or condition, then it is an incredibly OP spell or it as a st and then RC has a fair chance to resist it.

[Ironsmith]

To return to your point: either it has no st or condition, then it is an incredibly OP spell or it as a st and then RC has a fair chance to resist it.

I mean, Girard had no illusions (heh) about playing fair. If the spell *is* that OP, it'd make sense he'd deploy it to guard the gate.

[Jasdoif]

It just occurred to me that sensory overload is an illusion spell with an additional effect against targets with true seeing.

[ReaderAt2046]

I also think that Serini may have included the locations of the gates in her diary BEFORE the party disbanded, so whatever defenses she knew about and decided to mention could be in a different part of it. Do we know if they only visited each rift once as a party (to seal each rift)? Or would they visit some of them several times, to research them so they could come up with the sealing spell(s) - and then, after they disbanded, each headed for the rift they were assigned to build its defenses.


Yeah, that's what I suspect. The diary has the true co-ordinates for each rift (taken down before the party split up) but few if any details on the Gates' defenses (which were created after the division began).

[ebarde]

But Girard chose his gate location after the party disbanded seemingly, he roled a porcentile die to see in which point in the desert he would put it in. And we know at the very least Soon was given the wrong location, which leads me to believe Serini might have been the only other party member that later was taught the real one for whatever reason.

[Fyraltari]

But Girard chose his gate location after the party disbanded seemingly, he roled a porcentile die to see in which point in the desert he would put it in. And we know at the very least Soon was given the wrong location, which leads me to believe Serini might have been the only other party member that later was taught the real one for whatever reason.

No, he rolled a percentile dice to choose the numbers he would give to Soon as the Gate's fake coordinates.

[PontificatusRex]

No, he rolled a percentile dice to choose the numbers he would give to Soon as the Gate's fake coordinates.

You know, it occurs to me just now reading these comments - didn't the Order of the Scribble go around the world defeating other groups that had taken control of each Gate? They divided up responsibility for each member guarding each Gate, but there's nothing to suggest that Girard discovered his without Soon's involvement. So if Soon had been alive when the Sapphire Guard was sent to the Gate we still should have known enough to say "It's in the Windy Canyon", even if his map-reading skills were so bad that he didn't realize the actual coordinates were fake.

[Fyraltari]

You know, it occurs to me just now reading these comments - didn't the Order of the Scribble go around the world defeating other groups that had taken control of each Gate? They divided up responsibility for each member guarding each Gate, but there's nothing to suggest that Girard discovered his without Soon's involvement. So if Soon had been alive when the Sapphire Guard was sent to the Gate we still should have known enough to say "It's in the Windy Canyon", even if his map-reading skills were so bad that he didn't realize the actual coordinates were fake.

Girard probably expected them to get to the coordinates and be confused that this wasn't Windy Canyon. I guess it's also possible that Windy Canyon was artificially constructed like Monster Hollow.

[NerdyKris]

You know, it occurs to me just now reading these comments - didn't the Order of the Scribble go around the world defeating other groups that had taken control of each Gate? They divided up responsibility for each member guarding each Gate, but there's nothing to suggest that Girard discovered his without Soon's involvement. So if Soon had been alive when the Sapphire Guard was sent to the Gate we still should have known enough to say "It's in the Windy Canyon", even if his map-reading skills were so bad that he didn't realize the actual coordinates were fake.

The Sapphire Guard was formed after they sealed the gates. They were never sent around to seal the gates, they only went after groups that were a threat to the gates. Soon kept his vow, even though Girard assumed he wouldn't.

[ebarde]

The Sapphire Guard was formed after they sealed the gates. They were never sent around to seal the gates, they only went after groups that were a threat to the gates. Soon kept his vow, even though Girard assumed he wouldn't.

They're talking about the Order, not the Sapphire Guard. Yeah I'm a tad confused myself, I don't get why he'd assume Soon wouldn't just remember the pretty distinct location the rift was located in, and would just tell his paladins the right one. I do have a theory that maybe they might have split up to tackle multiple different gates at the same time, so like if it was a race to get to them, Soon might have got sent off to deal with another thing while Girard was taking the gate.

[NerdyKris]

A name of a location in the desert is meaningless. You'd still need coordinates to find it, because there aren't any landmarks around. Just knowing it's in the Windy Canyon doesn't tell you where the Windy Canyon was in the desert. They couldn't give the name of the city closest to it, because those names changed constantly due to all the wars in the area.

[Keltest]

A name of a location in the desert is meaningless. You'd still need coordinates to find it, because there aren't any landmarks around. Just knowing it's in the Windy Canyon doesn't tell you where the Windy Canyon was in the desert. They couldn't give the name of the city closest to it, because those names changed constantly due to all the wars in the area.

Maybe, but when they look at the map and see "this is the middle of a featureless desert" they could double check with the cartographer to see why there isnt a canyon in the area.

I think this is just more evidence of "Gerard was pretty dumb and/or wildly insane and didnt think about the trap remotely logically."

Heck, i wouldnt be surprised if Serini hadnt conned him into making it simply for the sake of winning the bet when Soon inevitably didnt show up.

[ebarde]

I don't know, Girard doesn't necessarily come off as someone that would just make this kind of mistake. His fatal flaw is more paranoia, but I'm not sure he'd just straight up forget that Soon was there when they sealed the rift. I also don't think Soon would forgot where the rift is cause like, it's a somewhat distinct location geographically speaking, and Windy Canyon seems to be the area actual name, so it's not like a random area.

[Fyraltari]

Maybe, but when they look at the map and see "this is the middle of a featureless desert" they could double check with the cartographer to see why there isnt a canyon in the area.
Remember that they don't have satellites to take pictures of the area. Any map of the desert is probably rather unreliable as to where exactly any given landmark is.

[Dion]

You just use your cesium clock to calculate the sidereal date, then you can figure out your longitude precisely.

Any paladin can do it.

Edit: serious question time. Are there any spells or tools in a “vanilla” 3.5 rules to determine location?

Longitude was historically very difficult to determine, and earth technology probably wouldn’t get you closer than a few hundred miles until about 200 years ago, and only then with a great deal of equipment and knowledge.

Mechanical methods probably aren’t impossible in this setting, considering the gnome abilities we’ve already seen. But I seem to recall that Roy couldn’t even find a sextant, which is very low tech compared to the tools you’d need for longitude...

[KorvinStarmast]

Windy Canyon seems to be the area actual name, so it's not like a random area. So is Passage Pass.

Longitude was historically very difficult to determine, and earth technology probably wouldn’t get you closer than a few hundred miles until about 200 years ago, and only then with a great deal of equipment and knowledge.Mid 18th century (1740ish) with people working on it for about a century before that.
You needed a clock and astronimical charts/books with star positions.
The trick is the chronometer and the use of GMT.

Fantastic book about this is Longitude by Dava Sobel

In the days before GPS, we'd take sun and moon sightings, and shoot the stars, using a sextant, a chronometer, charts, a stop watch, and star and sun tables. Celestial nav is something we did because sometimes LORAN might have a transmission anomaly or a station might be down.

OMEGA was another variant of radio navigation, and we were starting to get more SATNAV (things line INMARSAT also) to improve the ability to do open ocean navigation.

Our chronometers were always in sets of three, and there was a specific technique on how to wind them overseen by the Chief quartermaster (on behalf of the ship's navigator).

[PontificatusRex]

Remember that they don't have satellites to take pictures of the area. Any map of the desert is probably rather unreliable as to where exactly any given landmark is.

They have airships, flying spells, flying sentient races, clairvoyance...I'm pretty sure they can draw a map at least as good as this one (https://www.istockphoto.com/vector/map-of-virginia-17th-century-after-captain-john-smith-gm1065043436-284791923) that could show that a big canyon is not in the middle of the sand wastes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

They have airships, flying spells, flying sentient races, clairvoyance...I'm pretty sure they can draw a map at least as good as this one (https://www.istockphoto.com/vector/map-of-virginia-17th-century-after-captain-john-smith-gm1065043436-284791923) that could show that a big canyon is not in the middle of the sand wastes.

Let's say they can (although Virginia is tiny compared with a desert the size of half a continent - see if you can find that same year map for the Sahara. And one that has, say, the Eye of the Sahara (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richat_Structure) in the correct place). But it just so happens that the guy drawing said map is also the one providing the coordinates, so I'm sure in the map Soon got, the canyon looked to be in those coordinates.

GW

[PontificatusRex]

But it just so happens that the guy drawing said map is also the one providing the coordinates, so I'm sure in the map Soon got, the canyon looked to be in those coordinates.

GW

While I'm sure that this is true, we still know that Girard thought there was a high probability the Soon himself would show up, and Soon would know that it was supposed to be in a canyon. Or would have told his minions "It's in a place called Windy Canyon", and after they survived the not-that-strong explosion they would have gone looking for it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

While I'm sure that this is true, we still know that Girard thought there was a high probability the Soon himself would show up, and
Soon would know that it was supposed to be in a canyon. Or would have told his minions "It's in a place called Windy Canyon", and after they survived the not-that-strong explosion they would have gone looking for it.

Which is why he also put defences around the canyon itself. I really don't see where you are going with this. Once the explosion happened, the cat would have been out of the bag anyway, and Girard can't stop Soon from knowing the name of the place by the time he decides to feed him the wrong coordinates. But he can get one up on him, get advance notice that he or his minions are coming, and a bunch of money from his bet.

Also, still waiting on that Sahara map, btw.

GW

[Fyraltari]

While I'm sure that this is true, we still know that Girard thought there was a high probability the Soon himself would show up, and Soon would know that it was supposed to be in a canyon. Or would have told his minions "It's in a place called Windy Canyon", and after they survived the not-that-strong explosion they would have gone looking for it.

And? That little trick only had two purposes: getting an early warning that the SG is coming and flipping the bird at Soon by getting a free rant and explosion in. That bomb didn't kill any member of the Order, it wouldn't habe killed Soon. Girard was definitely expecting a showdown at his base.

[Skull the Troll]

You just use your cesium clock to calculate the sidereal date, then you can figure out your longitude precisely.

Any paladin can do it.

Edit: serious question time. Are there any spells or tools in a “vanilla” 3.5 rules to determine location?

Longitude was historically very difficult to determine, and earth technology probably wouldnÂ’t get you closer than a few hundred miles until about 200 years ago, and only then with a great deal of equipment and knowledge.

Mechanical methods probably arenÂ’t impossible in this setting, considering the gnome abilities weÂ’ve already seen. But I seem to recall that Roy couldnÂ’t even find a sextant, which is very low tech compared to the tools youÂ’d need for longitude...

Actually it was very easy to do after Huygens invented the pendulum clock. The problem was pendulums don't work at sea. All you need to determine your longitude on land is a clock that is set to Greenwich mean time and to know when actual noon (not what it says on your phone) which can be determined with a stick on a sunny day. That's why longitude is measured in hours minutes and seconds. Every hour is 15 degrees of the 360 degrees around the world.

To get your latitude (On earth that is, does OOTS have a north star or southern cross? Does the planet even rotate?) just measure the angle from the horizon to the North star. The number of degrees is your latitude.

That said, there's no reason to suspect that anyone in the OOTS world knows these skills or that they would even work. Coordinates are unnecessary though people found their way though the world long before even written language existed. Serini's dary could have said:

"We travelled through the cave in the left canyon How cool was THAT?!? Girard was amazing and put an illusion over it so no one could follow us. Then I spent an hour with the sun directly in my eyes as we walked to the rift, such a bummer- I'm still seeing spots."

That's more than Xykon would have needed to get there especially as he didn't need to look for a pyramid, by that point it was a big smoking crater of a "quest over."

[Goblin_Priest]

So is Passage Pass.
Mid 18th century (1740ish) with people working on it for about a century before that.
You needed a clock and astronimical charts/books with star positions.
The trick is the chronometer and the use of GMT.

Fantastic book about this is Longitude by Dava Sobel

In the days before GPS, we'd take sun and moon sightings, and shoot the stars, using a sextant, a chronometer, charts, a stop watch, and star and sun tables. Celestial nav is something we did because sometimes LORAN might have a transmission anomaly or a station might be down.

OMEGA was another variant of radio navigation, and we were starting to get more SATNAV (things line INMARSAT also) to improve the ability to do open ocean navigation.

Our chronometers were always in sets of three, and there was a specific technique on how to wind them overseen by the Chief quartermaster (on behalf of the ship's navigator).

Is it really that complicated to measure?

step 1) get a very accurate mechanical clock

step 2) take good note of when the sun is at its highest, presumably using a solar clock.

step 3) use a compass to drive straight east or west

step 4) compare the results you obtain with your mechanical and solar clocks, and use the difference to measure how many degrees you've traveled. Given that there is 24 hours in a rotation and 360 degrees to come full circle, every hour in difference between the mechanical and the solar clock should equate 15 degrees.

Am I missing something, here?

I mean, once you get the proper craftmanship to forge a really good mechanical clock (that's also not too big to carry around), sounds, to me, simpler than measuring the size of the Earth. And the Greeks did that in BC.

Also, without looking any of this up, wouldn't the sextant and star sighting be more for latitude?

Edit: to clarify, I'm not talking about measuring one's "absolute" longitude, but measuring one's travels in terms of degrees of latitude. For the purpose of making maps, for example. Though technically the same principle could apply, albeit with a requirement for an increasingly reliable and precise mechanical clock.

[snowblizz]

Is it really that complicated to measure?

Nope. Very easy. For the guy with 2 ranks in Ranger. For someone without the prerequisite skills, which I don't know what could be in the context of D&D, however, as impossible as lifting oneself by one's boots.

[Dion]

step 1) get a very accurate mechanical clock.

Surprisingly, getting an accurate clock isn’t hard. The whole universe is a clock. The moon is sweeping through the sky in a predictable way; the moons of Jupiter are ticking out their orbits more precisely than any mechanical clock we’ll ever be able to build.

But... the equipment, calculations, tables and procedures nescessary to let anyone do it (and not just dedicated astronomers in dedicated observatories) really only became widespread around 1800.

And I know it seems impossible today, when you can hire a surveyor to come out and position your fence to six decimal places, and even our watches will often tell us where we are within a few feet, but these measurements were not precise by modern standards!

In 1800, being off by one degree was pretty good; you’d have to spend a month of careful and repeated operations to improve much on that. But each degree is 69 miles!

So... no. Unless there’s either magic involved (or GPS) finding an invisible landmark in a featureless desert by its coordinates doesn’t make sense to me.

[Fyraltari]

There's also very little incentive to properly map out a desert. After all it's vast expanses of nothingness. Get the roads and places where you can find water right, the rest isn't nearly as important.

[Dr.Zero]

The only part you might be missing is that in actual history this step:



didn't happen until 1761 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_chronometer), and that was after centuries of effort by the world's best and brightest and significant investments of resources from the world's naval powers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longitude_rewards).

I suppose that there is something about a 24h (or better a 23:59:58, to take in account the time needed to turn it) hourglass that I can't grasp, because it seems a decent solution, albeit you need a person ready to turn it as soon as the sands drops completely.
Even with an additional error of 2 secs every time added always in the same direction (which seems kind of a stretch) it needs a full month before accumulating one minute of error.

[Keltest]

I feel like people describing the mapmaking challenges that the western continent might face are neglecting to account for the fact that people can fly, teleport, and otherwise use magic. Heck, "find the path" is a 6th level cleric spell, so its not at all out of the question that Soon would be able to access it if he so desired.

[Dion]

Even with an additional error of 2 secs every time added always in the same direction (which seems kind of a stretch) it needs a full month before accumulating one minute of error.

Every two seconds of time translates to a half mile difference on the ground,

Those differences start to add up fast when you’re looking for something invisible.

[KorvinStarmast]

Is it really that complicated to measure?
I'll refer you to the book by Dava Sobel that was in my post.
It is an excellent read, and not a very long book.

[Bacon Elemental]

Serini probbably wrote the real co-ordinates of Girard's Gate in her coded diary because it's hard to remember where in a vast blasted desert in the middle of a war-torn continent you left the darn thing.


Meanwhile there's less need for her to go into depth to herself about how she's rigged her own Gate

[Goblin_Priest]

Surprisingly, getting an accurate clock isn’t hard. The whole universe is a clock. The moon is sweeping through the sky in a predictable way; the moons of Jupiter are ticking out their orbits more precisely than any mechanical clock we’ll ever be able to build.

But... the equipment, calculations, tables and procedures nescessary to let anyone do it (and not just dedicated astronomers in dedicated observatories) really only became widespread around 1800.

And I know it seems impossible today, when you can hire a surveyor to come out and position your fence to six decimal places, and even our watches will often tell us where we are within a few feet, but these measurements were not precise by modern standards!

In 1800, being off by one degree was pretty good; you’d have to spend a month of careful and repeated operations to improve much on that. But each degree is 69 miles!

So... no. Unless there’s either magic involved (or GPS) finding an invisible landmark in a featureless desert by its coordinates doesn’t make sense to me.

This is a poor answer. The problem is accurately measuring fractions. Measuring exactly how many days have passed is irrelevant to the issue at hand, measuring precisely the differences in time between specific events (noon, or sunset, or sunrise, for example) is what matters. If all you've got are tools to measure the time at your current location (such as anything based on the sun), then you lack any means to obtain the time it is currently in /another location/, the comparison with which is necessary to establish distance in terms of longitude.

I've studied in geography, with many classes relating to GIS and arpentry. These guys have been doing their job, with pretty fair accuracy, since way before the GPS. Never meant to say any random schmuk could do it. But an initiate with the proper training and a few basic tools? That's another issue. See: Eratosthenes.


The only part you might be missing is that in actual history this step:



didn't happen until 1761 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_chronometer), and that was after centuries of effort by the world's best and brightest and significant investments of resources from the world's naval powers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longitude_rewards).

This is a far more satisfying answer, which I find quite plausible.

That said, I would add a nuance that the ability to reliably tell longitude on the fly, and for an extended period of time, would require more needed for naval travel than mapping, which, I'd expect, could do a fair enough job with much cruder tools.

After all, we do see maps being made since way before. The Cantino Planisphere dates from 1502, and it's pretty accurate.

It also all brings into question just how big the thing we want to map is. Also, how much divergence there is between the true north and the magnetic north in the OotS-verse. And if their planet is even a sphere at all. I think we've seen it as a sphere, but I'm not really sure we have. I know my own campaign setting is set on a flat world with a great ice barrier. Others are as well.


There's also very little incentive to properly map out a desert. After all it's vast expanses of nothingness. Get the roads and places where you can find water right, the rest isn't nearly as important.

If the desert is large, sparsely populated, and of little interest to the educated urban elites, than that would greatly explain why it's poorly mapped. More than technical difficulties.


I suppose that there is something about a 24h (or better a 23:59:58, to take in account the time needed to turn it) hourglass that I can't grasp, because it seems a decent solution, albeit you need a person ready to turn it as soon as the sands drops completely.
Even with an additional error of 2 secs every time added always in the same direction (which seems kind of a stretch) it needs a full month before accumulating one minute of error.

That brings the same issue as my first comment. It's not about measuring a precise 24h period, it's about measuring the difference with a precise 24h period.

[Dion]

If all you've got are tools to measure the time at your current location (such as anything based on the sun),

Agreed! Fortunately there are a lot of objects in the sky that aren’t the sun, and we can determine the time based on those objects instead.

Keep in mind that mechanical clocks are helpful as ways to determine your longitude quickly, and they’re helpful when viewing conditions aren’t ideal. But we’ve been doing longitude calculations for literally 2000 years before the invention of a reliable clock.

But even after the invention of accurate clocks, dedicated surveying crews who were charged with accuracy still calibrated their clocks to astronomical observations.

And according to Wikipedia, stellar time today is still based on astronomical observations, not on clocks (stellar time being based on the angle of some far off quasars observed with radio telescopes or whatever)

[brian 333]

While the Polynesians have a more complex system, the European version was essentially to aim for the lattitude of your goal then sail on it until you hit land. Once currents had been mapped the regular routes could be refined to make use of them, but otherwise, longitude remained an educated guess until a British guy invented the escapement thingy that makes watches tick. And then the Royal Navy screwed him out of the reward they promised for inventing a reliable method of finding longitude at sea.

[skim172]

How were those calculations done historically? All I've heard of is simultaneous observations of eclipses (obviously inconvenient unless we are planning our navigational fixes months/years in advance). What other astronomical events would work that don't require telescopes (which weren't invented until the 1600s)?

You're on the right track with "astronomical" - the answer is "celestial navigation". Eclipses may be rare, but there's a sun in the sky every day, as well as the moon, and the stars, which move in trackable and predictable patterns. Historically, navigators had excellent understanding of the celestial bodies, as their lives depended on it. You'd be amazed at how advanced even ancient navigators were and how much they had managed to extrapolate about the movement of the Earth and heavens without advanced scientific tools.


Incidentally, this is why the old myth about "everyone believed the world was flat until brave Christopher Columbus proved it was round" is complete nonsense. Sailors knew the world was round - they relied on that to be able to accurately navigate the ocean using the sun and stars. Maybe common land-bound peasants might not know, but anyone who sailed the seas and anyone who was educated knew the Earth was a globe.

In fact, Eratosthenes, a Greek scholar all the way back in 2nd century BC, calculated the circumference of the Earth and the tilt of the Earth's axis, using nothing but survey data and solar measurements. And his estimate was really accurate - off by just about 1 or 2% from the real figure. This was 200 years before Christ. Over the following millenia, our understanding of math and science and the movement of the heavens would grow, building upon that ancient knowledge.

And then 1,700 years after Eratosthenes died, Columbus came along and decided that he - and all the science and math confirming his calculations - was wrong. Not just a tiny bit wrong - amazingly, hugely wrong. Columbus' bold, grand, paradigm-shifting idea wasn't that you could reach Asia by sailing west around the globe. Everyone knew that was theoretically possible, but everyone also knew that with the shipbuilding and sailing technology of the day, any expedition would run out of water and food long before they reached Asia (and then presumably die in unpleasant ways). There was a technological and practical limit to how far their ships could travel in open seas, and Asia lay well beyond that limit.

But Columbus said NO. That wasn't true at all. HIS bold idea was that the world was way smaller than you think, and a man can definitely reach Asia by sailing west without losing their mind and eating the crew. And I ... I will be that man. And so, after several unsuccessful attempts at raising funding from less credulous audiences, Columbus delivered his 15th-century TED talk to the court of Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain - and the rest is history.

Of course, Columbus was actually incredibly wrong about his estimations - by the time his ships washed up what's now Haiti, his crew was already starving and on the verge of mutiny. And modern-day science has confirmed that Haiti is not, in fact, in Asia.

As for how wrong - in Spain, Columbus boldly declared that the distance from the Canary Islands (off the coast of Morocco) to the coast of Japan was no less than 2,400 nautical miles. For a comparison, this is roughly the distance from Miami to Vancouver. The actual distance from the Canary Islands to Japan going westwards is about 10,000 nautical miles. He was misled not only by his very incorrect estimations of the size of the planet, but also by some mistranslations and very optimistic readings of maps and other explorers' notes. In fact, it is actually significantly shorter to go eastward around the globe from the Canary Islands to Japan - about 6,700 nautical miles.

Sometimes, it's better to be lucky than good.

[Dion]

You're on the right track with "astronomical"

Wow, that’s an excellent post. Thank you.

[Onkeldata]

..awesome post...
[Insert honorific of your choice], that was really an education. I will not take it's contents as given, but the very idea that Columbus dared an expedition that was considered a fools errand by people with better understanding of earths dimension (and, it turns out, unsufficient knowledge on it's geography) just because he was in error, well, if it is not the truth it is well told anyway! I shall need to read it up.

He's was bit Elan like then, believing in the good outcome of a very heroic but stupid decision, or am I the only one getting this vibe out of it?

On the strip:
So, Checkovs Serini appeared at least, at least some of her. And I find myself angry of her lying to and beating the paladins. I am very disappointed in me. I took lengths to annoy every paladin or monk warrior that I encountered in my roleplaying days (even played one myself, and was constantly amused by my corset of behaviour rules), and now I take emotionally their side? The giant has made me root for paladins. He IS a awesome storyteller.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe common land-bound peasants might not know, but anyone who sailed the seas and anyone who was educated knew the Earth was a globe.
To misquote Pratchett, most people didn't care what shape the Earth was as long as it contained, somewhere, their next meal. But to those that were in a position to know because they were not subsistence farmers, yes, the number of proofs that the Earth is round are multitude. The most obvious being that the Earth's shadow on the moon during eclipses is round. But also: people with views to the sea and decent eyesight can just make out the flag of an incoming ship at the top of the mast before they see the hull. And if you've travelled minimally, you can see that stars are different at different latitudes.


In fact, Eratosthenes, a Greek scholar all the way back in 2nd century BC, calculated the circumference of the Earth and the tilt of the Earth's axis, using nothing but survey data and solar measurements. And his estimate was really accurate - off by just about 1 or 2% from the real figure.
Nitpick: we aren't actually sure of this, because he measured it in stadia... and we aren't sure how far that was to the Greeks (or rather, we know it depended on the greek Foot measure, which could vary by location). There is a lot of circular references when tracking down the conversion value, and the one that makes Eratosthenes work is actually derived backwards from his own measurements (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadion_(unit)), re-measured in modern times.

He wasn't far off (nothing close to Columbus' hubris), but it is likely the error is actually larger than 2%.


[Insert honorific of your choice], that was really an education. I will not take it's contents as given, but the very idea that Columbus dared an expedition that was considered a fools errand by people with better understanding of earths dimension (and, it turns out, unsufficient knowledge on it's geography) just because he was in error, well, if it is not the truth it is well told anyway! I shall need to read it up.

Oh, no, it is absolutely true. It is the reason why the Portuguese king sent him packing when he pitched the idea to him. Heck, if Castille hadn't had a surplus of able bodied men, having just completed a major war, it is likely they wouldn't have bit either.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

Since Columbus rejected the scientific consensus of his time to pick the theory that suited his own agenda because he knew better than everyone else, ironically that might suggest he'd be a flat earther now.

[Onkeldata]

Since Columbus rejected the scientific consensus of his time to pick the theory that suited his own agenda because he knew better than everyone else, ironically that might suggest he'd be a flat earther now.

More like a *small* earther. Hey, let's take this as an initiative to found our own conspiration! Let's call it "order of the small world"

I mean, everybody keeps telling us, it is a small world, right? We keep seeing known persons at the unlikeliest places, right? Astronauts keep calling it a marble, Armstrong said, a pea. THIS IS THE PROOF! WE BEEN LIED TO! SANON WILL... (collapsing while frothing and searching for my horned pelt hat)

[Fyraltari]

Oh, are we crapping on Colombus? That man did not deserve his luck and it infuriates me. He died believing that the Caribpbean was Japan. Columbia and Colombia should change their names.


In fact, Eratosthenes, a Greek scholar all the way back in 2nd century BC, calculated the circumference of the Earth and the tilt of the Earth's axis, using nothing but survey data and solar measurements. And his estimate was really accurate - off by just about 1 or 2% from the real figure. This was 200 years before Christ. Over the following millenia, our understanding of math and science and the movement of the heavens would grow, building upon that ancient knowledge.
The story I know (which may sadly not be true) was that Erathostene used in his calculations the distance between Alexandria and some other city which was measured by counting the steps a camel took. Apparently measuring distance by watching a camel was a real job back then and that is marvelous to me.

[skim172]

Nitpick: we aren't actually sure of this, because he measured it in stadia... and we aren't sure how far that was to the Greeks (or rather, we know it depended on the greek Foot measure, which could vary by location). There is a lot of circular references when tracking down the conversion value, and the one that makes Eratosthenes work is actually derived backwards from his own measurements (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadion_(unit)), re-measured in modern times.

He wasn't far off (nothing close to Columbus' hubris), but it is likely the error is actually larger than 2%

Yes, very true. However, on the flip side, because we don't know exactly what the length of stadia Eratosthenes was, there is a non-zero possibility that Eratosthenes was absolutely spot-on correct, down to the micron.


To misquote Pratchett, most people didn't care what shape the Earth was as long as it contained, somewhere, their next meal.

*conspiratorial whisper* The Turtle moves.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Oh, are we crapping on Colombus? That man did not deserve his luck and it infuriates me. He died believing that the Caribpbean was Japan.

Maybe. Maybe not. On top of all the other terrible crimes he was guilty of, he was also a known liar. On his first trip, he kept two log books, one public one where he intentionally lied about the distance they travelled each day, and a private one with the real distance. So it is possible he knew full well that he was full of crap (there has been suggestions that he might have known about the Americas from tales about the viking colonies; I'm not sure how much hard evidence there is for this though).

GW

[KorvinStarmast]

More like a *small* earther. Hey, let's take this as an initiative to found our own conspiration! Let's call it "order of the small world"

I mean, everybody keeps telling us, it is a small world, right? I knew that when I was about five years old. At some place run by Walt Disney. There's even a theme song for that group (https://www.tripsavvy.com/its-a-small-world-song-3225783). :smallyuk:
So it is possible he knew full well that he was full of crap (there has been suggestions that he might have known about the Americas from tales about the viking colonies; I'm not sure how much hard evidence there is for this though). There are some authors, Mark Kurlansky is one (https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-basque-history-of-the-world-the-story-of-a-nation_mark-kurlansky/275585/item/7727345/?mkwid=%7cdc&pcrid=448918240737&pkw=&pmt=&slid=&plc=&pgrid=104755242616&ptaid=pla-927269736418&gclid=Cj0KCQiA4feBBhC9ARIsABp_nbVs8zJWeXzrKEpDPMPN 5sYojVhNIN18hQc7WieFh185ShZYqBhQThoaAhTbEALw_wcB#i diq=7727345&edition=408887), who think that Basque cod fishermen had already discovered the grand banks but kept it a trade secret, and that Columbus was in possession of a stolen or copied log book from one such ship. Not sure how strong the evidence is for that, but it's plausible, and it would fit into Cristobol Colon's penchant for presenting whatever story he thought he could get away with telling.