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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class Seer and Warden (Fixed List Divination and Abjuration Casters)



NigelWalmsley
2020-11-28, 01:08 PM
Seer
Would you like to know a secret?

It is the nature of people to seek out knowledge. Seers are spellcasters whose magic is specialized towards supporting and continuing this search. They bend time and space to seek out the things that others have concealed. Some are driven to find a solution to a particular problem, while others simply seek knowledge for knowledge's sake. The tendency of ancient wizards to leave magical knowledge at the bottom of tombs filled with traps and monsters makes adventuring a common career choice for seers.

Hit Die: d6

Class Skills
The seer's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (any) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight Of Hand (Dex), Speak Language, Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis).

Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier (x4 at 1st level).


1+0+0+2+2Spells, Armored Mage, Sneak Attack +1d6
2+1+0+3+3Twist Fate
3+1+1+3+3Advanced Learning
4+2+1+4+4arcane sight, Sneak Attack +2d6
5+2+1+4+4Advanced Learning
6+3+2+5+5Additional Swift Action
7+3+2+5+5Advanced Learning, Sneak Attack +3d6
8+4+2+6+6Fade From View
9+4+3+6+6Advanced Learning
10+5+3+7+7Instant Magic, Sneak Attack +4d6
11+5+3+7+7Advanced Learning
12+6/+1+4+8+8Additional Swift Action
13+6/+1+4+8+8Advanced Learning, Sneak Attack +5d6
14+7/+2+4+9+9celerity
15+7/+2+5+9+9Advanced Learning
16+8/+3+5+10+10Outside Time, Sneak Attack +6d6
17+8/+3+5+10+10Advanced Learning
18+9/+4+6+11+11Additional Swift Action
19+9/+4+6+11+11Advanced Learning, Sneak Attack +7d6
20+10/+5+6+12+12Improved Instant Magic


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The seer is proficient with light armor, shields and simple weapons.

Spells: A seer casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the seer list. The seer automatically knows all the spells on the seer list, as well as a selection of additional spells from her Advanced Learning ability. If she gains access to new spells through effects such as Prestige Domains, she automatically knows those spells as well. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. The seer's spell DCs and bonus spells are determined by her Wisdom score.

The seer recieves the same spells per day as a sorcerer of her level.

Unlike most spontaneous spellcasters, it does not take a seer any longer to cast a spell modified by a metamagic feat.

At the DM's discretion, the seer may exchange spells on the seer list for other divination spells of the same level from the sorcerer/wizard list.

The seer is treated as a wizard who has specialized in the school of divination for the purpose of meeting prerequisites.

Armored Mage (Ex): Seers recieve specialized training that allows them to cast more effectively in armor. A seer ignores the arcane spell failure chance of any armor with which she is proficient.

Sneak Attack: As the rogue ability, except that the seer gains additional damage dice at 4th level and every three levels thereafter.

Twist Fate (Sp): At 2nd level, the seer's precognitive abilities allow her to nudge the timeline away from outcomes that are disfavorable to her. Whenever a d20 is rolled within line of sight of the seer, she may elect to have two d20s be rolled instead and take the result of her choice. The seer may not use this ability more than once per roll, or a total number of times per day greater than her class level plus her Wisdom modifier. This ability is used before the outcome a roll is known.

Advanced Learning: At 3rd level and each odd-numbered level thereafter, the seer gains additional spell knowledege. She may select either one divination spell of any spell level which she can cast from any list, or one spell of any school of a level up to one less than the highest level she can cast from the sorcerer/wizard list. Divination spells are added to her list at the level they appear on the list she choose them from, other spells are added to her spell list at the level they appear on the sorcerer/wizard list.

arcane sight (Sp): At 4th level, the seer can see the auras of magic around her. She is under the effect of a permanent arcane sight (caster level equal to her caster level). If dispelled, this effect returns the next time she regains her spells. In addition, if she ever learns arcane sight she can cast it on others as if it had a range of touch and make it permanent with permanency.

Additional Swift Action: At 6th level, the seer can take an additional swift action each round. Like a normal swift action, this action can also be used as an immediate action. At 12th level, the seer can take a third swift action each round, and at 18th level they can take a fourth.

Fade From View: At 8th level, the seer can make Hide checks without cover or concealment and while being observed, and the penalty she takes for attempting to Hide while taking other actions is reduced by half (round down).

Instant Magic: At 10th level, the seer can draw on her lesser magics with only a moment's effort. She gains Quicken Spell as a bonus feat, and it is automatically applied to any eligible spell she casts without increasing the spell slot used to cast it, provided that the spell's adjusted level is not higher than the highest level of spell she can cast. At 20th level, this applies to any eligible spell she casts of 8th level or lower.

celerity (Sp): At 14th level, the seer can pull time into the present, enabling her to act at a moment's notice. She may use celerity (PHBII) as a spell-like ability at will, though not more than once per round.

Outside Time: At 16th level, the seer no longer ages and no longer has to make Will saves to avoid insanity from casting contact other plane.

Seer Spell List
0th Level: detect alignment, detect magic, omen of peril (SpC), read magic
1st Level: augury, benign transposition (SpC), comprehend languages, distract assailant (SpC), golemstrike (SpC), gravestrike (SpC), identify, nerveskitter (SpC), precognition*, snake's swiftness (SpC), sniper's shot (SpC), true casting (SpC), true strike, vinestrike (SpC)
2nd Level: baleful transposition (SpC), detect thoughts, dimension hop (PHBII), know vulnerabilities (SpC), locate object, mass snake's swiftness (SpC), object reading*, recall agony*, rope trick, status, see invisibility, swift fly (SpC), swift haste (SpC), swift invisibility (SpC), tongues
3rd Level: analyze dweomer, arcane sight, detect scrying, dispel magic, divination, greater precognition*, haste, hypercognition*, locate creature, scattering trap (PHBII), scrying, slow, speak with dead, unluck (SpC)
4th Level: arcane eye, assay spell resistance (SpC), dimension door, discern location, foresight, legend lore, maddening visions^, stasis field^
5th Level: arcane fusion (CM), commune, contact other plane, dimension jumper (CM), offensive timewarp^, permanency, prying eyes, telepathic bond, teleport, true seeing, word of recall
6th Level: contigency, curse of aeons^, greater arcane sight, greater dispel magic, legend lore, moment of prescience^, scry location, vision
7th Level: fracturing teleport^, greater scrying, greater teleport, magnficient mansion, stun ray (SpC), temporal acceleration*
8th Level: greater arcane fusion (CM), greater prying eyes, mass maddening visions^, recall death*, temporal stasis
9th Level: greater dimension jumper (CM), time stop, timeless body*, temporal echo^, prescience^

*: Originally a psionic power. If the power can be augmented, treat it as if it had been augmented by 1 point for every caster level above the level at which the spell is learned (so a 18th level seer would gain two rounds of time from temporal acceleration). For effects that care about spell school, these spells are treated as Divinations.
^: New or modified spell described below.

Sources Used
CM: Complete Mage
PHBII: Player's Handbook II
SpC: Spell Compendium

Curse of Aeons
Transmutation
Level: Seer 6, Sorcerer 6, Wizard 6
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You accelerate a creature's passage through time, causing its body to rapidly age and decay. Each round, the target takes 2 points of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution damage. If one of these ability scores is reduced to 0 by this effect, the creature dies (this does not count as a death of old age, so it can still be restored to life by effects such as raise dead). The creature makes a save each round, and a successful save ends the effect (but does not remove damage that has already been accumulated).

Fracturing Teleport
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level: Seer 7, Sorcerer 7, Wizard 7
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) and line of sight; see text
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will partial
Spell Resistance: Yes

You cast a creature through space, but fail to take the usual precautions required to ensure it survives the trip. On a failed save, the target takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level and moves to any location you have line of sight to (the creature must be able to occupy the new space). A successful save negates the teleportation and reduces the damage by half.

Maddening Visions [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Divination
Level: Seer 4, Sorcerer 4, Wizard 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will partial
Spell Resistance: Yes

You assault the creature with a flurry of visions of horrible futures. The target is shaken for one round per caster level (no save). On a failed save, they are also stunned for the first round of the spell's duration.

Maddening Visions, Mass [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Divination
Level: Seer 8, Sorcerer 8, Wizard 8
Target: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart

This spell works like maddening visions, except that it effects multiple targets.

Moment of Prescience
Divination
Level: Luck 8, Seer 6, Sorcerer 8, Wizard 8
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Permanent until discharged

At any time, you may expend the effect of moment of prescience to gain an insight bonus equal to your caster level equal to a single d20 roll. You may not have multiple moment of prescience, greater precognition, precognition, or prescience effects active on you at once.

Offensive Timewarp
Transmutation
Level: Seer 5, Sorcerer 5, Wizard 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will partial
Spell Resistance: Yes

You slow the flow of time around a creature. The target is slowed for the spell's duration, and must make a save each round or be stunned for that round.

Prescience
Divination
Level: Seer 9
Duration: Until you regain spells

This spell works like moment of prescience, except that it can be activated once per round. You may not have multiple moment of prescience, greater precognition, precognition, or prescience effects active on you at once.

Stasis Field
Transmutation
Level: Seer 4, Sorcerer 4, Wizard 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: 40ft radius spread
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will partial
Spell Resistance: Yes

You alter the flow of time in an area, preventing creatures in it from moving. Each creature in the area must make a save at the start of its turn (creatures entering the area must make a save the first time they do so). On a failed save, the creature cannot move that turn. Flying creatures do not fall, and ranged attacks work normally.

Temporal Echo
Transmutation
Level: Seer 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level

By partially detacting yourself from the flow of time, you create an echo that mimics your actions. Each turn after the first, the echo takes whatever actions you took in the previous turn. You are still considered the caster of any spells, and you may change the targets of abilities the echo uses. The echo cannot itself cast temporal echo, and cannot act during accelerated time (such as the effect of a time stop or temporal acceleration).

This one was obnoxious. There are a couple of fundamental issues with a Warmage-style Divination caster:

1. Divination isn't really something you can hang a whole character on. There are Divination specialist Wizards, but that's because you can find one Divination you want at every level, then fill the rest of your slots with the spells every other Wizard casts (like Color Spray, Fear, and Planar Binding). There's I think one offensive divination spell (Unluck), and then a couple more things that are useful in combat but don't directly kill people (e.g. True Strike, Sniper's Shot).
2. Lots of Divination spells are really over-leveled. Foresight has no business being a 9th level spell. Moment of Prescience is not worth an 8th level spell slot (though it falls into the weird niche of spells that are basically class features).
3. There isn't that much high-level Divination out there. Even before you start down-leveling the Legend Lores and Analyze Dweomers of the world, high level Divination is a pretty sparse field. The Spell Compendium has a total of four (Sorcerer/Wizard) Divination spells that are 6th level or higher (compare Transmutation, which has four or more spells at every level).

From this, you can tell that whatever Warmage-equivalent you write for Divination is going to need to pick up some kind of side line, and probably more than one. Now, there are a lot of ways you could do that. Your Diviner could be like a Jedi, getting various "move stuff with your mind" powers, and a high-mobility combat style. You could staple Divination to another spell school (Evocation is the obvious choice, being as lacking outside combat as Divination is in it). I went with a combination of approaches, giving the Seer some time magic, a passable sneak attacking plan, borrowed some psionic powers, and wrote a couple new spells.

At low levels, the Seer is a Rogue-type. You're frailer than a standard Rogue, don't get as much Sneak Attack, and your skill list doesn't support the full range of Rogue skills (you can't be a trap-monkey or face, for example). But in exchange you have a bunch of magical tricks you can pull that let you do Rogue stuff better. You can pop Swift Haste to get extra Sneak Attack, Sniper's Shot to get better range, or the appropriate Strike for whatever Sneak Attack immune enemy you're fighting. You've also got the Divination suite to do out of combat stuff, plus a few party support options.

At mid levels, you start abusing the action economy. You get extra swift actions, which you can either use for more temporary buffs or (once you hit 10th level) to drop some extra offensive spells, particularly if you burn an Advanced Learning to get some kind of SA-eligible 1st or 2nd level spell. You also get some save-or-dies at these levels, though you're not as impressive in this department as a Beguiler or Dread Necromancer. Outside combat, you continue to scout and gather information magically.

At high levels, you break the action economy even more (though hopefully not to the degree that TO Psion builds can). You probably want to pick up Delay Spell to better abuse Temporal Aacceleration and Time Stop, allowing you to dump out even bigger novas.

That's the idea. The question is: does it play out that way? Is it balanced? I'm not sure. Action economy abuse is prone to pretty wild swings in effectiveness (for example, there was a draft that got Celerity, until I remember that the spell is stupid with Arcane Fusion). Frankly, it's quite possible that as a class that is A) basically telling you to scry-and-die and B) gets a bunch of ways to take extra actions, the Seer is inherently too strong and needs to be rebuild along some other lines.

Warden
A man's home is his castle.

A warden is a spellcaster that specializes in defensive and protective magics. While this makes them well suited to protecting and fortifying a single location, some wardens become adventurers and utilize their skills to defeat the magical defenses of others. Wardens are often employed by individuals or organizations with a mind to improving their security, and the longtime homes of powerful wardens are among the most secure locations in the world.

Hit Die: d10

Class Skills
The warden's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Disable Device (Int), Forgery (Int), Knowledge (Arcana, Architecture and engineering, Dungeoneering, The planes) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points: 4 + Int modifier (x4 at 1st level).


1+1+2+0+2Spells, Armored Mage, Trapfinding
2+2+3+0+3Enduring Magic
3+3+3+1+3Advanced Learning
4+4+4+1+4Wardsense
5+5+4+1+4Advanced Learning
6+6/+1+5+2+5Cooperative Wards
7+7/+2+5+2+5Advanced Learning
8+8/+3+6+2+6guards and wards
9+9/+4+6+3+6Advanced Learning
10+10/+5+7+3+7Transient Wards
11+11/+6/+1+7+3+7Advanced Learning
12+12/+7/+2+8+4+8permanency (weekly)
13+13/+8/+3+8+4+8Advanced Learning
14+14/+9/+4+9+4+9Maximum Force
15+15/+10/+5+9+5+9Advanced Learning
16+16/+11/+6/+1+10+5+10permanency (daily)
17+17/+12/+7/+2+10+5+10Advanced Learning
18+18/+13/+8/+3+11+6+11Unimpeachable Magic
19+19/+14/+9/+4+11+6+11Advanced Learning
20+20/+15/+10/+5+12+6+12Warding Mastery


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The warden is proficient with light, medium, and heavy armor, shields, and all simple and martial weapons.

Spells: A warden casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the warden list. The warden automatically knows all the spells on the warden list, as well as a selection of additional spells from his Advanced Learning ability. If he gains access to new spells through effects such as Prestige Domains, he automatically knows those spells as well. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. The warden's spell DCs and bonus spells are determined by his Intelligence score.

The warden recieves the same spells per day as a sorcerer of his level.

At the DM's discretion, the warden may exchange spells on the warden list for other abjuration spells of the same level from the sorcerer/wizard list.

The warden is treated as a wizard who has specialized in the school of abjuration for the purpose of meeting prerequisites.

Armored Mage (Ex): Wardens recieve specialized training that allows them to cast more effectively in armor. A warden ignores the arcane spell failure chance of any armor with which he is proficient.

Trapfinding: As the rogue.

Enduring Magic: At 2nd level, the warden's spells become more difficult to remove. He adds a bonus equal to one half his class level (round down) to his caster level for the purpose of resisting his spells being dispelled.

Advanced Learning: At 3rd level and each odd-numbered level thereafter, the warden gains additional spell knowledege. He may select either one abjuration or [Force] spell of any spell level which he can cast from the sorcerer/wizard or cleric lists, or one spell of any school of a level up to one less than the highest level he can cast from the sorcerer/wizard list. This spell is added to his list of spells known at the level at which it appears on the sorcerer/wizard list if it appears there, or the level it appears on the cleric list if it does not.

Wardsense (Su): At 4th level, the warden becomes instinctively attuned to defensive magics. He is automatically aware of any magicial trap, gylph spell, symbol spell, or similar effect with 120ft. An opposed caster level check reveals what conditions will activate these effects (e.g. the location that triggers a trap, or the doorway protected by a symbol of pain), but not passwords that will disable or bypass them.

Cooperative Wards: At 6th level, the warden can store his allies magic in his defensive spells. When he casts gylph of warding or a similar spell, he may store spells known by any willing ally who is present when he casts the spell, rather than just spells he knows.

guards and wards (Sp): At 8th level, the warden can weave potent magics to protect his home. He can use guards and wards once per day as a spell-like ability. The duration of the effect is unlimited, but only one instance of it may be active at a time. The caster level of the effect is equal to the warden's caster level, and it benefits from his Enduring Magic and Unimpeachable Magic abilities. When the warden uses guards and wards (either from this ability, or by casting the spell normally), he may select an additional option off the list of choices the spell provides for every two caster levels above 8 he possesses (so a warden with caster level 10 could choose to have stinking cloud active in two locations and gust of wind in a corridor). He may choose the same ability multiple times.

Transient Wards (Su): At 10th level, when the warden casts a symbol spell or a spell with a duration of "permanent" or "permanent until discharged" and an expensive material component, he may elect not to use the relevant material component. If he does so, the spell fades when he next regains spells if its effect has not already been discharged. He may have only one such spell active at a time.

permanency (Sp): At 12th level, the warden can make spells permanent. Once per week, he can use permanency as a spell-like ability. If an effect he has made permanent in this way is dispelled, it is restored to functionality the next time he regains spells. An effect that is dispelled for three days in a row is removed permanently. At 16th level, he can use this ability once per day instead of once per week.

Maximum Force: At 14th level, the warden gains perfect control over force magic. Any [Force] spell he casts is Maximized. This does not increase either the spell slot used to cast the spell or the spell's casting time.

Unimpeachable Magic: At 18th level, the warden's magics are protected from the meddling of lesser mages. Any attempt to dispel one of his spells (or his guards and wards ability) by a character with a caster level lower than his own (factoring in the bonus from Enduring Magic) automatically fails.

Warding Mastery: At 20th level, the warden casts symbol spells and all spells with a duration of "permanent" or "permanent until discharged" as supernatural abilities.

Spell List
0th Level: alarm, arcane mark, detect magic, dispel ward (Spc), mage hand, protection from alignment, read magic, resistance
1st Level: abjurant armor*, arcane lock, endure elements, floating disk, greater dispel magic, lesser deflect (PHBII), magic missile, sanctuary, shield, shield of faith, undetectable alignment, unseen servant
2nd Level: anticipate teleportation (SpC), avoid planar effects (SpC), battering ram (SpC), chain missile, deflect (PHBII), dissonant chant (SpC), fire trap, lesser spell immunity (SpC), obscure object, protection from arrows, resist energy, shield other, spiritual weapon, unseen crafter (RoE)
3rd Level: explosive runes, greater abjurant armor*, greater resistance (SpC), glyph of warding, magic circle against alignment, manyjaws (SpC), nondetection, protection from energy, remove curse, sepia sanke sigil, servant horde (SpC), spirit jaws (SpC)
4th Level: break enchantment, death ward, dimensional anchor, freedom of movement, lesser globe of invulnerability, mass resist energy, orb of force, spell immunity, symbol of confusion^, symbol of pain, transcribe symbol (SpC)
5th Level: area ward^, forbiddance, greater anticipate teleportation (SpC), guards and wards, private sanctum, spell resistance, symbol of fear, symbol of sleep, wall of force, wall of greater dispel magic (SpC)
6th Level: antimagic field, energy immunity (SpC), globe of invulnerability, greater gylph of warding, repulsion, superior resistance (SpC), symbol of death, symbol of persuasion, symbol of weakness
7th Level: forcecage, greater symbol of fear^, greater symbol of sleep^, spell turning, symbol of stunning
8th Level: greater area ward^, dimensional lock, mind blank, prismatic wall, reaving dispel (SpC), symbol of insanity
9th Level: disjunction, freedom, greater symbol of death^, prismatic sphere, supreme gylph of warding^, imprisonment

*: As (greater) mage armor, but school is Abjuration.
^: New spell described below.

Sources Used
PHBII: Player's Handbook II
RoE: Races of Eberron
SpC: Spell Compendium

Area Ward
Abjuration
Level: Sorcerer 6, Warden 5, Wizard 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Area: 40-ft. or smaller radius
Target: Location or object touched
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: See text

You construct a mystical diagram that imposes a permanent spell effect on either an area or any creature which enters it. Possible effects include alarm, anticipate teleportation, avoid planar effects, clairaudience/clairvoyance, detect magic, detect scrying, death ward, dimensional anchor, dispel magic, endure elements, freedom of movement, gentle repose, greater resistance, gust of wind, hallucinatory terrain, magic circle (against an alignment of your choice), nondetection, obscuring mist, protection from energy, resist energy, scrying, and silence. You must know the spell which you charge an area ward with. You can set conditions, such as particular alignments, that determine how creatures are effected by the spell. For example, you could create an area ward with an alarm that triggers only when Lawful creatures enter.

When casting the spell, you may have it effect an area with a radius of up to 40ft. Once the spell is cast, its area cannot be modified. If the spell targets a location, it is centered on that location. If it targets an object, it moves with the object. Only one area ward may be in effect in a given area. If multiple wards overlap, the one with the lower caster level is supressed. If their caster level is equal, the one that became active later is supressed. If area ward targets an object, its effect is centered on that object and moves with it.
Material Component: The ward requires arcane reagents worth 1,000 GP plus an additional 1,000 GP for every level of the spell to be included in its area.

Area Ward, Greater
Abjuration
Level: Warden 8
Area: 1 mile or smaller radius

This spell works like area ward, except that it effects a larger area and can incorporate more powerful spell effects. In addition to the spells that can be tied to a normal area ward a greater area ward can provide the effects of spells such as dimensional lock, energy immunity, forbiddance, globe of invulnerability, greater anticipate teleportation, greater dispel magic, greater scrying, guards and wards, lesser globe of invulnerability, mind blank, mirage arcana, private sanctum, planar bubble (plane of the caster's choice), repulsion, solid fog, spell turning, superior resistance, spell resistance, and true seeing.
Material Component: The ward requires arcane reagents worth 10,000 GP plus an additional 10,000 GP for every level of the spell to be included in its area.

Glyph of Warding, Supreme
Abjuration
Level: Warden 9

This spell works like glyph of warding, except that a supreme blast glyph deals 1d8 points of damage per caster level (no cap) and a supreme spell gylph can contain a spell of up to 9th level.
Material Component: You trace the glyph with incense, which must first be sprinkled with powdered diamond worth at least 800 gp.

Symbol of Death, Greater
Necromancy [Death]
Level: Warden 9

This spell works like symbol of death, except that it has no hit point limit; once triggered, a greater symbol of death simply remains active for 10 minutes per caster level.

Symbol of Confusion
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Warden 4

This spell works like symbol of death, except that creatures that fail their save are confused (as the confusion spell), and that it has no hit point limit; once triggered, a symbol of confusion simply remains active for 10 minutes per caster level.

Symbol of Sleep, Greater
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Warden 7

This spell works like symbol of sleep, except that there is no hit die limit for its effect. Any creature that fails their save falls asleep.

Symbol of Fear, Greater
Necromancy [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Level: Warden 7

This spell works like symbol of fear, except that it has no hit point limit; once triggered, a greater symbol of fear simply remains active for 10 minutes per caster level.

Abjuration is another tough one. Unlike Divination, there are at least a decent suite of Abjurations that you'd cast during combat, or to make your side better at combat. Showing up as the guy who can provide Mind Blank and Dispel Magic is a lot more useful than as the guy who can cast Prying Eyes and Vision. But the school is still offensively lacking. To fix this, the Warden gets some Force magic (giving it decent enough blasting at low levels, and some lockdown) and the various Gylphs and Symbols to round out the "magic security measures" provided by Arcane Lock and Explosive Runes.

At low levels, the Warden is supposed to justify itself by being a dude in heavy armor who can occasionally cast a useful spell in combat and who handles trapfinding like a Rogue. You don't have the kind of offensive firepower that a Beguiler does at 1st level, but that's okay because you can get up in melee with orcs and goblins and not die to basically the same degree a Fighter or Cleric does. Your 2nd and 3rd level spells provide you with some offensive spells, and the ability to buff up your allies against various things.

At mid levels, you have a bit of an awkward spot where you've gotten past the point where Full Plate and a Greatsword make a viable character, but haven't yet gotten your symbols online. Hopefully things like Explosive Runes, Manyjaws, Orb of Force and defensive buffs carry you through this bit (possibly the Guards and Wards ability goes to 10th and Transient Wards to 8th?). But then you get your key tools: Area Ward and Transient Wards. The former allows you to provide a suite of buffs to your fellow party members for cheap, while the latter lets you open every fight with a Symbol in addition to whatever else you're doing without lighting money on fire.

At high levels, you get better Symbols, bigger area wards, and the ability to make Permanent Symbols. Those really break the action economy, because they stack. You can eventually open every fight by having Symbols of Persuasion, Insanity, Fear, and Sleep go off while your party sits under a Mind Blank ward. That's potentially pretty busted, but it's also a strategy for a 16th level character, so I'm not sure how concerned I am.

Again, that's the idea. Does it work? I hope so. I definitely like a lot of what the class does as a dungeon owner, but it's quite possible I've over- or undertuned it in the hands of dungeon delvers.

Elves
2020-11-28, 06:14 PM
Precision damage is a great idea for a diviner, but just as scout did with skirmish, I think it would be better and far more thematic to create a new ability instead of directly importing sneak attack. Probably it should do away with flanking/flat-footed as a trigger condition, since the idea is you're magically perceiving their weakness. Maybe you get precision damage against a target whenever you successfully target them with a divination spell? That kind of sucks; there are lots of ways you could do it, the point is just that it be a custom ability.

Dubious if handing out extra swift actions is a good idea. I also don't see the thematic link.

Similarly, I don't get the flavor rationale for giving them armor. Or for Fade From View (which if you change the trigger condition of their precision damage, could be safely removed).

A playable diviner specialist certainly does require new divination spells, kudos for going through with it, they look interesting, although fracturing teleport looks unthematic.

Basically, I like the precision damage part and would like to see that expanded on with a custom ability with unique trigger conditions. But I'm not feeling the action economy manipulation part: it seems both unbalanced and thematically unrelated.



Warden:

Armored mage has more of a thematic connection here, but I feel it would be cooler if they used mage armor instead of armor. Maybe give them strengthened mage armor / mage armor as an SLA and the ability to give their mage armor magic armor properties? Similar bonuses with the "shield" spell would also fit.

I don't however see why they would have full BAB.

Transient Wards is cute.

You say leader classes should get minions as class features; by same token seems fitting to give wardens an extraplanar sanctum by default?

This is just me but if I were doing a class like this I would give them some way of creating magic forcefields from day one as that's a frequent staple of the fantasy for this kind of character.

NigelWalmsley
2020-11-28, 07:08 PM
Precision damage is a great idea for a diviner, but just as scout did with skirmish, I think it would be better and far more thematic to create a new ability instead of directly importing sneak attack.

It would be more thematic, but it would also be more work. Divination has spells that reference Sneak Attack by name. I don't see the need to create some new thing for the class to do as a combat shtick when there's an existing one that already works.


Dubious if handing out extra swift actions is a good idea. I also don't see the thematic link.

It may not be a good idea. As I said, it's very possible the class does too much to the action economy to be balanced. Thematically, they get extra swifts because they are time mages. They also get them because, mechanically, they have a whole bunch of swift action spells that make their sneak attack better (and other stuff to do with swifts later), so they want to be able to e.g. Golem Strike + Sniper's Shot to sneak attack a golem that is 70ft away.


Similarly, I don't get the flavor rationale for giving them armor. Or for Fade From View (which if you change the trigger condition of their precision damage, could be safely removed).

They mostly get armor because all the fixed list casters do. There's no particular reason a Beguiler or Dread Necromancer needs to be able to run around in a Chain Shirt while still throwing around battle magic, but since they can I don't see any deep need to buck the trend. It's a part of the identity the classes have that makes them different from Wizards or Sorcerers that happened to specialize in the same strategies.

Fade From View is useful not just for sneak attacking, but because it makes it much, much easier to do your job as a mundane scout, which is what the class skill list supports you doing. It's also an ability that is just not all that big of a deal (you should be able to Hide under any circumstances by default), which helps even out the other stuff the class is doing.


A playable diviner specialist certainly does require new divination spells, kudos for going through with it, they look interesting, although fracturing teleport looks unthematic.

Fracturing Teleport is there because they have a secondary theme of time and space magic and needed a 7th level attack spell. You could cut the teleportation part of the theme and replace it with some kind of Doom Desire spell I guess.


Armored mage has more of a thematic connection here, but I feel it would be cooler if they used mage armor instead of armor. Maybe give them strengthened mage armor / mage armor as an SLA and the ability to give their mage armor magic armor properties? Similar bonuses with the "shield" spell would also fit.

There's already a (Prestige) Class for doing that: Abjurant Champion. Which they can get into at 6th level basically for free (they even get a version of Mage Armor that works with it). Certainly you could have a version of the class that leaned more into "Force Mage" and less into "stuff D&D lumps under Abjuration", and that class would get force armor instead of actual armor. But that's not really the Warden's niche (it's even possible that I should cut the blasting parts of the force shtick.).


I don't however see why they would have full BAB.

They have full BAB for kinda the same reason the Seer gets Sneak Attack: you need something to do at low levels, and wanted them to do something different from what a Beguiler or Wizard does. So they get full BAB (and the rest of the Fighter-ish chassis) because that's what you need to be a viable frontliner in low-level play. There's no particular reason a warding-based mage needs to have that particular package, but they need to have something, and this lets the class feel distinct from the people who throw around Color Sprays and Sleeps at 1st level to justify their existence.


You say leader classes should get minions as class features; by same token seems fitting to give wardens an extraplanar sanctum by default?

The idea is that the SLA Guards and Wards fills a similar niche. It's a (largely) fluff ability that gives you the ability to defend wherever your home base happens to be with some extra powerful magic. The Warden is, conceptually, supposed to have a tower or a dungeon full of traps and defenses, not an extraplanar retreat.


This is just me but if I were doing a class like this I would give them some way of creating magic forcefields from day one as that's a frequent staple of the fantasy for this kind of character.

The class isn't really a Force Mage. You get some Force spells to fill out your list, but the focus is on defensive buffs, symbols, and other Abjuration (or Abjuration-adjacent) magic. You certainly could write a class that works that way, but Force is a secondary or tertiary shtick for the Warden which mostly exists to give them offensive spells at levels where they wouldn't have them otherwise.

Elves
2020-11-29, 12:58 AM
Thematically, they get extra swifts because they are time mages.
Looking at it again, the time theme doesn't work for me. I get the link with seeing into the future, but that seems different from chronomancy, which should be its own class. The direction I would go instead is knowledge, curses, prophecies and perhaps battlefield control that takes the form of "simulated foresight" that mechanically is just you forcing targets to take certain actions. The weaving of fates and destinies, using crystal balls as implements, etc.


They also get them because, mechanically, they have a whole bunch of swift action spells that make their sneak attack better (and other stuff to do with swifts later), so they want to be able to e.g. Golem Strike + Sniper's Shot to sneak attack a golem that is 70ft away.
Safer to make the extra swift actions only apply to those spells or to all non-advanced learning seer spells than to crack the action economy wide open.


There's already a (Prestige) Class for doing that: Abjurant Champion.
I was thinking you'd add enhancement bonuses and armor special abilities onto your mage armor and shield spells.


The Warden is, conceptually, supposed to have a tower or a dungeon full of traps and defenses, not an extraplanar retreat.
Something that would be fun to see for a class like this is more directly turning the battlefield into their "sanctum", with the ability to draw different layers of perimeters.


The class isn't really a Force Mage.
Force is a descriptor not a category. D&D may put spells like wall of force into other schools than abjuration, but when I think of what a player who's drawn to an abjuration-focused caster wants, creating magical barriers would tend to be a big part of it.

PairO'Dice Lost
2020-11-30, 12:37 AM
The Seer looks good in general; I like mixing in temporal stuff with my diviners as well, and the new spells and ported psionics are all good choices.


Fade From View: At 8th level, the seer can make Hide checks without cover or concealment and while being observed, and the penalty she takes for attempting to Hide while taking other actions is reduced by half (round down).

Fade From View is useful not just for sneak attacking, but because it makes it much, much easier to do your job as a mundane scout, which is what the class skill list supports you doing. It's also an ability that is just not all that big of a deal (you should be able to Hide under any circumstances by default), which helps even out the other stuff the class is doing.

I agree with Elves that this doesn't make much thematic sense for a diviner, even one with a secondary scout role, because it makes the Seer better at stealth than any class that's supposed to be sneaky. If you were improving baseline stealth or if Fade From View were handed out to all scouty or sneaky classes as part of a wider class revamp effort I'd be completely in favor of giving that to the Seer too, but as a one-off thing for just this class it's not a great fit.

What would fit thematically would be a version called "Unseen Observer" or something that worked the same way but only so long as the Seer didn't move, making them good at long-term scouting once they get somewhere or spying on people if they get someplace before an enemy does (which, with all their divinations, shouldn't be too hard) but not at combat-time sneaking or waltzing near-invisibly through enemy encampments like the rogue should be doing. Whether you feel something like that would be worth the class feature slot is up to you.


4th Level: [...] foresight


2. Lots of Divination spells are really over-leveled. Foresight has no business being a 9th level spell.

Foresight may not be worth a 9th-level slot, but it's definitely better than a 4th-level slot. Obligating the DM to tell you "Hey, there's a medusa behind the door, better close your eyes" or "Hey, that guy's about to shoot a ray at you, might want to Spellcraft that and maybe cast ray deflection" is a pretty potent effect--and no, the "warnings of impending harm" aren't just flavor text as is often claimed, see here. I'd peg that as at least a 7th-level effect for the Seer when comparing it to an augmented sense danger, noting that high-level Seers have multiple immediate actions with which to react to threats, and keeping in mind that for many threats (like medusas and traps and such) the whole party can benefit from a warning.


That's the idea. The question is: does it play out that way? Is it balanced? I'm not sure. Action economy abuse is prone to pretty wild swings in effectiveness (for example, there was a draft that got Celerity, until I remember that the spell is stupid with Arcane Fusion). Frankly, it's quite possible that as a class that is A) basically telling you to scry-and-die and B) gets a bunch of ways to take extra actions, the Seer is inherently too strong and needs to be rebuild along some other lines.

I think the Seer ends up on the stronger side of balanced, but not overpowered, seeing (ha) as taking full advantage of action economy abuse and the "-and-die" portion of scry-and-die requires a lot more full caster/manifester tricks than the Seer can get even with very judicious Advanced Learning picks. Picking up blasting spells via Advanced Learning and spamming them with Instant Magic+Additional Swift Action is more of a practical concern than scry-and-die abuse, and even then that's not a trick they can do until 13th level or so for the good blasting spells and at that point it's not a huge deal.

-----

Now, for the Warden. Also looks good in general, just two minor issues:


Wardsense (Su): At 4th level, the warden becomes instinctively attuned to defensive magics. He is automatically aware of any magicial trap, gylph spell, symbol spell, or similar effect with 120ft. An opposed caster level check reveals what conditions will activate these effects (e.g. the location that triggers a trap, or the doorway protected by a symbol of pain), but not passwords that will disable or bypass them.

This needs some clarification. Does "similar effect" mean "permanent-until-discharged spell" or "spell with symbol/glyph/sigil/etc. in the name" or "stationary Abjuration effect" or...? The usefulness of this ability will vary a lot based on how broad that definition is.


Maximum Force: At 14th level, the warden gains perfect control over force magic. Any [Force] spell he casts is Maximized. This does not increase either the spell slot used to cast the spell or the spell's casting time.

You probably want to name this "Overwhelming Force" or similar and give a choice between Maximize and, say, Extended or Widened, since a noticeable portion of the Warden's [Force] spells don't have variable effects to be maximized (at least abjurant armor, forcecage, shield, and wall of force on the main list, plus a bunch of Advanced Learning utility or defensive spells like Otiluke's resilient sphere or Tenser's greater floating disk that he might want to pick up).


Again, that's the idea. Does it work? I hope so. I definitely like a lot of what the class does as a dungeon owner, but it's quite possible I've over- or undertuned it in the hands of dungeon delvers.

I think this one is also well-balanced, more solidly so than the Seer. The weakness in the low-mid levels is definitely there, but also as with the Seer some judicious Advanced Learning picks can help with that.

-----


Looking at it again, the time theme doesn't work for me. I get the link with seeing into the future, but that seems different from chronomancy, which should be its own class. The direction I would go instead is knowledge, curses, prophecies and perhaps battlefield control that takes the form of "simulated foresight" that mechanically is just you forcing targets to take certain actions. The weaving of fates and destinies, using crystal balls as implements, etc.

The problem with that approach is that curses and such are more Necromancy and simulated foresight is more Enchantment, so making those part of the Seer's schtick is somewhat stepping on the Dread Necromancer's and Beguiler's toes respectively. The curses angle would certainly work with a "Witch" class that's sort of Divination primary and Necromancy secondary in the same way that the Beguiler is sort of Enchantment/Illusion primary and Transmutation secondary, but changing the spell list and class features from Seer to Witch would involve more than just a rename and palette-swap.


Safer to make the extra swift actions only apply to those spells or to all non-advanced learning seer spells than to crack the action economy wide open.

Seconded, since that would avoid the three-quickened-Advanced-Learning-fireballs-per-round issue entirely.

kinem
2020-12-07, 11:33 PM
Nigel: For the Seer, I think Twist Fate is too powerful, especially as a 2 level dip.

I don't like the extra swift actions, but that's already been discussed.

I don't know if you are aware but yours is not the first attempt to homebrew on the theme; perhaps you'd be interested to compare them. There is Grod's Seer (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?314601-The-Seer-an-Alex-Verus-wannabe-(Fixed-list-Caster-Project)-3-5-PEACH) as well as my own Occult Seer (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616975-Occult-Seer-PEACH). My favorite is naturally my own attempt, although it may be a bit on the weak side. It's roguish, but I tried to make sure it doesn't overshadow the rogue.

Maat Mons
2020-12-08, 01:33 AM
If I were you, I'd avoid anything Rogue related for this class like the plague. Beguiler is already the sneaky fixed-list caster. Don't make another sneaky fixed-list caster. Make your fixed-list caster have a more unique flavor.



Casting in armor makes sense for Beguilers, because the class is thematically a cross between Rogue and Sorcerer. Wearing light armor is a very Rogue thing.

Casting in armor makes sense for Dread Necromancers, because the class is thematically a cross between Evil Cleric and Sorcerer. In fact, I'd argue it should have gotten medium armor.

Casting in armor makes sense for Warmage, because the class theme specifically involves training for warfare.



For a seer, the most on-theme defense is not getting hit because you knew the attack was coming. I'd give them a bonus to AC when unarmored. The same as a Monk gets, except keyed off their casting stat.

Actually, I'd change the casting stat to Wis anyway. Insight seems to go hand-in-hand with seerhood.



If any kind of magic is going to be combined with Divination, it should be Conjuration (Healing). I mean, in all the stories, if the wise old hermit does something other than dole out knowledge, its healing people. And the most common additional ability for a healer is prophesy.

Light also fits with seeing, to a certain degree. So maybe bundle together spells from the school of divination, spells with the Healing descriptor, and spells with the Light descriptor. Maybe some defensive buffs too, but most of the buffing should be reserved for a Warmage fix.



No Bardic Knowledge? Nothing related to Contingency? No Blindsight? And the spell Choose Destiny isn't on the class list?



You know what class is good at using knowledge to help his team? Archivist. That might be something to poach for mechanics.

NigelWalmsley
2020-12-08, 11:29 PM
Looking at it again, the time theme doesn't work for me. I get the link with seeing into the future, but that seems different from chronomancy, which should be its own class. The direction I would go instead is knowledge, curses, prophecies and perhaps battlefield control that takes the form of "simulated foresight" that mechanically is just you forcing targets to take certain actions. The weaving of fates and destinies, using crystal balls as implements, etc.

The problem with that approach is that curses and such are more Necromancy and simulated foresight is more Enchantment, so making those part of the Seer's schtick is somewhat stepping on the Dread Necromancer's and Beguiler's toes respectively. The curses angle would certainly work with a "Witch" class that's sort of Divination primary and Necromancy secondary in the same way that the Beguiler is sort of Enchantment/Illusion primary and Transmutation secondary, but changing the spell list and class features from Seer to Witch would involve more than just a rename and palette-swap.

If any kind of magic is going to be combined with Divination, it should be Conjuration (Healing). I mean, in all the stories, if the wise old hermit does something other than dole out knowledge, its healing people. And the most common additional ability for a healer is prophesy.

Light also fits with seeing, to a certain degree. So maybe bundle together spells from the school of divination, spells with the Healing descriptor, and spells with the Light descriptor. Maybe some defensive buffs too, but most of the buffing should be reserved for a Warmage fix.

That's the big problem with fixed-list casters. There's a lot of ways you can take any particular concept. As we can see, each of the three of you has a somewhat different notion of what the Seer ought to be doing as a secondary schtick. And that's not even all the possible answers! The Seer could be doing Jedi or Matrix style combat. They could be a vestigial appendage of the Warmage. They could read the future in the heavens, getting sky, star, and storm magic. They could be a Haruspex that is conceptually closer to the Dread Necromancer. And none of those answers are wrong. Those are all things some people will think when you suggest "Divination Specialist" as a concept. And there's no real way to write a Seer that represents all of them without being unreasonably broad and/or breaking from the constraints set by the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage.

For what it's worth, if I was designing the game from scratch, characters would get a sub-class that would hopefully make this kind of customization easier. Frankly, Seer would probably just be a sub-class in that framework, so it didn't necessarily need a full combat shtick. You could just get some re-rolls and future sight utility, and that would be fine because it would be stapled to a White Mage or Witch or Evoker chassis that could cover for you in combat.


Safer to make the extra swift actions only apply to those spells or to all non-advanced learning seer spells than to crack the action economy wide open.

Picking up blasting spells via Advanced Learning and spamming them with Instant Magic+Additional Swift Action is more of a practical concern than scry-and-die abuse, and even then that's not a trick they can do until 13th level or so for the good blasting spells and at that point it's not a huge deal.

That's kind of the core issue with the class. It needs to walk a narrow tight-rope with several requirements that are in tension, and it may just be that there's no workable solution. The class needs to be able to put out enough damage to be level-appropriate in combat, but not so much damage that it trivializes every encounter. It needs to burn spell slots slow enough to contribute to multiple encounters, but not so slowly as to not face meaningful attrition (I'm not super worried about this particular failure case). Also, it should hopefully use Sneak Attack in a way that is at least someone different from optimized Rogues.

Ideally, someone should do a Same Game Test (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Same_Game_Test_(DnD_Guideline)) at 10th or 15th level for a Seer with pretty basic Advanced Learning choices. Eyeballing the 10th level one, I think you probably lose to the traps (basically your only tool here is Dispel Magic), and you have issues with the Trolls and Shadows (you don't have good multi-target damage, and the Shadows are Sneak Attack-immune to boot). That leaves you with the various "you v monster" challenges, which need finer-grained number crunching.


Something that would be fun to see for a class like this is more directly turning the battlefield into their "sanctum", with the ability to draw different layers of perimeters.

The problem is that to do that properly you want to pick up some damaging spells. I totally see a niche for a class that is a little more like Warlock from A Practical Guide to Evil (which is where the whole notion of Area Ward and Greater Area Ward comes from). But that class clearly gets things like Wall of Fire which the Warden does not.


If you were improving baseline stealth or if Fade From View were handed out to all scouty or sneaky classes as part of a wider class revamp effort I'd be completely in favor of giving that to the Seer too, but as a one-off thing for just this class it's not a great fit.

Well, yeah. That's one of those "how much do you want to change the rules" things. I think the baseline stealth rules are entirely too punishing for mundane stealth. If I had my druthers, the rule that you need cover or concealment to hide would be removed, and the penalties and bonuses would work differently (honestly, stealth probably needs a full re-design). Personally, I'd rather write the class with an ability that makes them good enough, so that it works even if the rules screw over everyone else, but I could see the argument for ditching the scouting schtick to avoid the issue.


Foresight may not be worth a 9th-level slot, but it's definitely better than a 4th-level slot. Obligating the DM to tell you "Hey, there's a medusa behind the door, better close your eyes" or "Hey, that guy's about to shoot a ray at you, might want to Spellcraft that and maybe cast ray deflection" is a pretty potent effect--and no, the "warnings of impending harm" aren't just flavor text as is often claimed, see here. I'd peg that as at least a 7th-level effect for the Seer when comparing it to an augmented sense danger, noting that high-level Seers have multiple immediate actions with which to react to threats, and keeping in mind that for many threats (like medusas and traps and such) the whole party can benefit from a warning.

Well, that's the issue, isn't it? The damn devs can't decide how good Foresight is supposed to be. I definitely graded it on the assumption that the text in question is fluff, and it's definitely true that its level is too low if the text isn't just fluff. But at the same time, there's clearly going to be a lot of table-to-table variance there, particularly because even the extended text isn't really mechanically explicit or specific. I would say that you should probably just adapt the level of the spell depending on how much insight you are going to provide to a player that has Foresight up.


This needs some clarification. Does "similar effect" mean "permanent-until-discharged spell" or "spell with symbol/glyph/sigil/etc. in the name" or "stationary Abjuration effect" or...? The usefulness of this ability will vary a lot based on how broad that definition is.

"Similar effect" means "I'm too lazy to define this category well and don't want to give a simple rule that excludes a central case I forgot about". The idea is that it detects anything that is "basically a trap". Ideally this would be a spell descriptor or category, plus things like Area Ward or Hallow (which it might not actually be possible to detect, but the person who wrote the rules for Hallow did not understand how the rest of the game worked). "Permanent-until-discharged" is a decent rule of thumb, but it has weird edge cases, like detecting people using the revised Moment of Prescience.


You probably want to name this "Overwhelming Force" or similar and give a choice between Maximize and, say, Extended or Widened, since a noticeable portion of the Warden's [Force] spells don't have variable effects to be maximized (at least abjurant armor, forcecage, shield, and wall of force on the main list, plus a bunch of Advanced Learning utility or defensive spells like Otiluke's resilient sphere or Tenser's greater floating disk that he might want to pick up).

Eh. Honestly, that's the ability I'm least satisfied with. I'm tempted to just replace it with some kind of improved "fortify your base" ability like Elves is suggesting. This is probably another case where the class needs to be more rigorously mathhammered to see what it needs at that level.


Nigel: For the Seer, I think Twist Fate is too powerful, especially as a 2 level dip.

What kind of build are you worried about here? A caster isn't going to be willing to delay their casting progression that much. A martial isn't willing to take two levels of a class with a d6 hit die and bad BAB. It's good for a Rogue, but Rogues don't want to delay access to their bonus feats. Overall, I'm not convinced that it's good enough to be worrying. I suppose you could re-configure the class so that Twist Fate was the 4th level ability, but that cascades and requires a bunch of other things to move.


There is Grod's Seer (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?314601-The-Seer-an-Alex-Verus-wannabe-(Fixed-list-Caster-Project)-3-5-PEACH)

I'm unsatisfied with Grod's Seer's performance in combat. The plan seems to be that you spam Planned Attack, but Planned Attack's damage scales like an Evocation, except that you can't apply metamagic and only hit a single target. That's really not good enough. Also, Always Prepared breaks the game by making you cast from scrolls spontaneously.


Occult Seer (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616975-Occult-Seer-PEACH).

That seems probably workable? It's hard for me to tell without running the numbers on what your Sneak Attack routine looks like. Also the Hunter's Eye over actual Sneak Attack thing seems more clever than good.


If I were you, I'd avoid anything Rogue related for this class like the plague. Beguiler is already the sneaky fixed-list caster. Don't make another sneaky fixed-list caster. Make your fixed-list caster have a more unique flavor.

I agree to an extent, but the intent of the Seer is to be less like a Rogue in skill use and more like a Rogue in terms of in-combat behavior (which the Beguiler obviously lacks). That said, your concern is valid, and suggests that they should move away from the scouting role.


Actually, I'd change the casting stat to Wis anyway. Insight seems to go hand-in-hand with seerhood.

Their casting stat is Wisdom.


No Bardic Knowledge?

They probably should get Bardic Knowledge.


Nothing related to Contingency?

They learn Contingency as a 6th level spell. I didn't give them Contingency-related abilities, because Contingency is something that rapidly becomes problematic as it becomes the focus of a character.


No Blindsight?

You could certainly give them that. The issue, fundamentally, is that they have a finite number of class levels, and giving them Blindsight means not giving them some other class feature.


And the spell Choose Destiny isn't on the class list?

Can't give them every Divination spell that's any good. I thought Choose Destiny was obscure enough to justify not sticking it on the class list. You certainly could opt to put it there instead.

PairO'Dice Lost
2020-12-09, 01:46 AM
Ideally, someone should do a Same Game Test (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Same_Game_Test_(DnD_Guideline)) at 10th or 15th level for a Seer with pretty basic Advanced Learning choices. Eyeballing the 10th level one, I think you probably lose to the traps (basically your only tool here is Dispel Magic), and you have issues with the Trolls and Shadows (you don't have good multi-target damage, and the Shadows are Sneak Attack-immune to boot). That leaves you with the various "you v monster" challenges, which need finer-grained number crunching.

For the monster challenges, I think it's a likely win for the Seer against the fire giant, blue dragon, and bebelith (their main defense in those scenarios is range and evasion, and the Seer definitely has the tools to find and get the jump on them) and a toss-up against the rest (the Seer's chances against closet trolls will be highly dependent on its Advanced Learning picks; lightning blade and luminous armor good, fireball and summon monster I bad).

The hallway I'd actually give to the Seer as a solid win, since "full of runes" doesn't necessarily mean "full of traps" and even then doesn't necessarily mean "traps that would affect the Seer." The Seer would be the best of all fixed-list casters when it comes to IDing the runes as general-purpose explosive runes vs. more targeted glyphs of warding keyed against Evil creatures vs. wondrous architecture vs. whatever else and then figuring out the best means of bypassing it from "dispel every last one" to "stride confidently past them" to anything in between--and if it does have to dispel them, area dispel magics have a respectable radius and shouldn't use up too many slots.

Overall, I'd give the Seer a win rate of 40% to 60% depending on Advanced Learning picks, which is basically ideal.

Looking at the 15th-level SGT, all of those challenges actually fit into the same three buckets: "unravel this puzzle" which the Seer excels at, "get to/find/pin down this elusive monster" which the Seer is pretty good at, and "this monster will murder you in close quarters" which the Seer sucks at inherently and will rely on its Advanced Learning picks to deal with. The Seer's effectiveness technically drops at that level due to the larger number of closet trolls in the list, but in my experience high-level adventures rely less on closet trolls (because flight and teleportation are common and dungeons aren't) and more on the kinds of puzzles/mysteries that high-level divinations don't just help with but are in fact necessary to solve, so I'd continue rating the Seer highly at that level.


Well, yeah. That's one of those "how much do you want to change the rules" things. I think the baseline stealth rules are entirely too punishing for mundane stealth. If I had my druthers, the rule that you need cover or concealment to hide would be removed, and the penalties and bonuses would work differently (honestly, stealth probably needs a full re-design). Personally, I'd rather write the class with an ability that makes them good enough, so that it works even if the rules screw over everyone else, but I could see the argument for ditching the scouting schtick to avoid the issue.

On the one hand, stealth and perception could certainly use a big redesign to make it a more substantial (and less player-screw-y) minigame. On the other hand, the mandatory cover and concealment would work just fine if there were solid rules for distracting people and being "behind" people (both in combat and when e.g. following someone down a hallway) instead of assuming perfect alertness and 360-degree vision at all times; 90% of the problems with stealth can be solved by adding in two or three alertness levels and a "stay behind this guy" usage of Hide.

That aside, unless you're planning on rewriting a bunch of classes and/or the skill system to fit, it's probably easier to drop the scouting schtick, since outside of that context it really does stick out as a less Seer-y and more Beguiler-y ability.


"Similar effect" means "I'm too lazy to define this category well and don't want to give a simple rule that excludes a central case I forgot about". The idea is that it detects anything that is "basically a trap". Ideally this would be a spell descriptor or category, plus things like Area Ward or Hallow (which it might not actually be possible to detect, but the person who wrote the rules for Hallow did not understand how the rest of the game worked). "Permanent-until-discharged" is a decent rule of thumb, but it has weird edge cases, like detecting people using the revised Moment of Prescience.

If you'd rather err on the side of being too broad rather than too narrow, then "any magical trap or Abjuration effect placed upon an object or area" should cover it, as that's the definition dispel ward uses and anything Abjuration-y that falls under another school will most likely count as a magical trap. Hallow is indeed badly-written, but its first clause about magic circle against evil would still make it detectable by Wardsense.


Eh. Honestly, that's the ability I'm least satisfied with. I'm tempted to just replace it with some kind of improved "fortify your base" ability like Elves is suggesting. This is probably another case where the class needs to be more rigorously mathhammered to see what it needs at that level.

I certainly wouldn't say no to an ability letting the Warden pepper the area and/or their allies with forcefields, but a bunch of spells are forcefield-themed already and "makes forcefields" is a broad enough ability that you could make a class just out of that. Free metamagic with Force spells is probably sufficient, especially since Cooperative Wards + Transient Wards means the Warden will probably be juggling a bunch of extra wards and doesn't need to be juggling a bunch of forcefields on top of that.

noob
2020-12-09, 07:14 AM
I already made a martial initiator diviner with all the divination spells and one of the stances was "deal bonus damage on people who recently have been targets of divination spells".
So the idea to deal boosted damage to divination spells targets is an old thing.
A tool I did grant to my divination based class was the ability to punch through varied protections against divination but it is probably a bad balance idea.
Your divination class is balanced around which kind of play?
Also what are the conjurations here for?

NigelWalmsley
2020-12-09, 08:10 AM
The hallway I'd actually give to the Seer as a solid win, since "full of runes" doesn't necessarily mean "full of traps" and even then doesn't necessarily mean "traps that would affect the Seer."

That's true. I also remembered after posting that that the Seer just gets Teleport or Dimension Door to bypass the whole thing. So that's a clean W (though I think the 15th-level version is tougher for it).


That aside, unless you're planning on rewriting a bunch of classes and/or the skill system to fit, it's probably easier to drop the scouting schtick, since outside of that context it really does stick out as a less Seer-y and more Beguiler-y ability.

That's fair, and it's only one class ability. You could give them Blindsight or something instead. What would people recommend? My first thought is that they really want something to mitigate the degree to which they burn through 1st level spells to make their Sneak Attack-ing work.


If you'd rather err on the side of being too broad rather than too narrow, then "any magical trap or Abjuration effect placed upon an object or area" should cover it, as that's the definition dispel ward uses and anything Abjuration-y that falls under another school will most likely count as a magical trap. Hallow is indeed badly-written, but its first clause about magic circle against evil would still make it detectable by Wardsense.

That doesn't quite work, because while it gets Gylph of Warding, the Symbols are typed according to their effect.


Your divination class is balanced around which kind of play?

The balance point is that, like Dread Necromancer or Beguiler, you can take the class and play it in a party of reasonably optimized casters and be effective without needing to dumpster-dive or do weird optimization tricks. It's somewhat more complicated than those classes because making Sneak Attack work involves a reasonably high degree of system mastery (as compared to the more forgiving strategy of "cast spells that kill people").


Also what are the conjurations here for?

The class gets space magic as a subtheme, hence the teleportation effects.

PairO'Dice Lost
2020-12-14, 01:40 AM
That's fair, and it's only one class ability. You could give them Blindsight or something instead. What would people recommend? My first thought is that they really want something to mitigate the degree to which they burn through 1st level spells to make their Sneak Attack-ing work.

Perhaps some sort of Urban Savant-like feature to let them find and exploit vulnerabilities of various creatures when making Knowledge checks, along the lines of letting the Seer sneak attack a creature as if they were flat-footed for [time limit somehow based on Knowledge check result]? That would synergize nicely with the Knowledge Devotion feat that Seers are likely to try to pick up anyway, and gives them an explicitly knowledge-themed class feature where the others are mostly temporal-themed.


That doesn't quite work, because while it gets Gylph of Warding, the Symbols are typed according to their effect.

The symbols are in "counts as a magical trap" territory, just like sepia snake sigil which is Conjuration but explicitly called out as a magical trap in the DMG.

With all the weird and wacky spells out there there's going to be some amount of ambiguity somewhere, and I think stuffing that ambiguity into "magical trap" rather than "and similar effects" is probably best.