Question about CE petitioners and nalfeshnees

[Conradine]

According to most sources, nalfeshnees are demonic judges that decide what petitioner will become a dretch, a rutterkin or tonight's dinner. They can also instant promote petitioners into more powerful forms.

So:

1- It's possible to conjure a nalfeshnees and coerce him, somehow, into promoting a specific soul?
And, more specifically, could a spellcaster arrange to do that with his own soul after death using a Simulacrum and / or followers, enslaved or geased servants ecc?

2- It's possible to arrange a creature's death in order to be certain his petitioner form will not be lost somewhere in the Abyss ( so that petitioner can be protected / promoted ecc.) ?

3- Could a petitioner benefit from his own Thought Bottle ( created by himself while still alive ) ?

[Spiderswims]

Well,

1.Maybe? We don't know how the whole afterlife, petitioner and demon world works. Not all nalfeshnees would "promote", but some do. But we don't know how. And we don't know the rules of promotion. Can a single nalfeshnees promote any soul to anything? Or are there rules?

Plus you have the huge unknown of how souls and petitioners work. If a person is chaotic evil and has no deity, their soul might end up in the Abyss. Even so, that is a bit vague. The Abyss is quite big. Planescape lore tells us that: The nalfeshnee rule the 400th layer of the Abyss, where they sit on flaming thrones on the Mountain of Woe. There they judge the mortal life forces that pass into the Abyss. So unless a soul just happens to end up in that spot, the nalfeshnee would not even get the chance to promote it. Unless that soul just randomly encountered a nalfeshnee elsewhere on the Abyss.

2.To find a single person soul in the Abyss would be a huge big deal. You would need powerful divinations at least. Or maybe simply trap the soul at the moment of death. That way might work best. Kill the person, trap the soul and then give the trapped soul to your nalfeshnee.

3.Yes. Not that it would do all that much though. What good would a single day of memories do?

There is a lot of vague and unknown stuff here, so it's really just your call if anything works.

[blackwindbears]

Which sources and do they explain why Nalfeshnees make these decisions? Like what are they trading off against. It seems really Lawful if they're judging based off a process of some kind of merit. If they're doing it out of selfishness, why not make the all the strongest thing? If spite, why not eat them all?

Hard to know the answers to the other question without more details on the process. If it were my game (and I was married to this Nalfeshnee as judge thing). I'd say yes to 1, 2 and thought bottles are banned in my game but I'd allow something real similar to work.

Edit: I would add, all of these should be challenging things, requiring significant divinations, and planar research. Not easily accomplished after the fact!

[Crake]

According to the fiendish codex, you need to go far above the ranks of nalfeshnee to be guaranteed being "risen" into the ranks of demons upon deaths. To quote:


There, these evil souls undergo ever lasting torment at the behest of dark powers. Some believers even claim that occasional souls “rise” to the ranks of demons or devils themselves, becoming slavish servants to evil.
Different tomes of knowledge disagree on the finer points of these claims. The Black Scrolls of Ahm put forth the position that individual souls seldom (if ever) become demons incarnate, while the Demonomicon of Iggwilv actually lists certain particularly evil individuals from history and outlines what sorts of demons they became after death. However, the Black Scrolls do allow for demonic pacts and bargains. Ahmasserts that a particularly evil—and powerful—individual can make a bargain with Demogorgon or Orcus, promising to serve that prince faithfully in life, in exchange for guaranteed rebirth as a powerful demon after death. He does clarify that these demonic reincarnations appear to be the exception rather than the rule. Still, no proof for these arguments exists one way or the other, and most demons enjoy inflicting doubt upon those who pursue this knowledge too closely.

According to the fiendish codex, by far (or possibly the ONLY) way demons are spawned is from the raw chaos of the abyss, and not through mortal souls. Converting souls into fiends is what devils do, not demons.

The reason why the fiendish codex is so vague about exactly what is true and what isn't is because it's meant to be up to the DM to decide these things based on their campaign, their story, and what would be the most interesting outcome. Also, cause, y'know, chaos and all that, demonic nature shouldn't be consistently documentable.

[hamishspence]

Manes are petitioners, and all petitioners are made from mortal souls. That means every mane, is a demon made from a mortal soul.

FC1 is unambiguous about manes being tanar'ri, and about them being "formed directly from the soul of an evil creature sent to the Abyss".

Dragon Magazine's Demonomicon of Iggwilv articles went into detail about what demons are associated with what "deadly sins".

I think the intent, was that manes with a strong association with a particular sin in life, eventually get turned into the appropriate demon.

In the section on the 3 main demon subtypes, under tanar'ri (page 28) it says "the first tanar'ri were forged from the souls of the first mortals drawn to the Abyss" - and it the Demonic Life Cycle section, it states senior tanar'ri are normally promoted from the ranks of the manes.


According to the fiendish codex, you need to go far above the ranks of nalfeshnee to be guaranteed being "risen" into the ranks of demons upon deaths.

It specifically says "powerful demon".


Ahm asserts that a particularly evil—and powerful—individual can make a bargain with Demogorgon or Orcus, promising to serve that prince faithfully in life, in exchange for guaranteed rebirth as a powerful demon after death. He does clarify that these demonic reincarnations appear to be the exception rather than the rule.

Becoming a mane is standard. Becoming something more powerful, without passing through the mane stage first - that is the extreme rarity.

[ShurikVch]

2- It's possible to arrange a creature's death in order to be certain his petitioner form will not be lost somewhere in the Abyss ( so that petitioner can be protected / promoted ecc.) ?
Those who were killed by Molydeus' venom are turned into Manes (even regardless of alignment!)