Any tips/thoughts on the Phantom rogue subclass?

[BisectedBrioche]

Obviously it's not been long, but I made a last minute decision (literally just before hitting level 3) to change my plans and make my current rogue a Phantom instead of a Thief.

Has anyone who's already played one got any thoughts?

[sayaijin]

I'm personally disappointed they didn't move the trinkets from level 9 to level 3. With the exception of the floating proficiency and extra damage on PB/long rest to a second creature, you're going to feel like you didn't even get a subclass for most of the game.

If the subclass defining feature is the trinkets, then move a weakened version of it to level 3.

Rant over. It's a cool roleplay idea, but actual implementation seems really lackluster until level 9.

[heavyfuel]

I'd only take Phantom on a mid level Rogue. It's level 3 feature is basically a ribbon. Dealing a few points of damage to another creature a few times per day is useless. I'd rather take Assassin than Phantom at level 3, and the Assassin sucks.

If you don't mind having no subclass for 6 levels, stick with it and it gets fun, but the design decisions behind it make me loathe the subclass.

[sayaijin]

I'd only take Phantom on a mid level Rogue. It's level 3 feature is basically a ribbon. Dealing a few points of damage to another creature a few times per day is useless. I'd rather take Assassin than Phantom at level 3, and the Assassin sucks.

If you don't mind having no subclass for 6 levels, stick with it and it gets fun, but the design decisions behind it make me loathe the subclass.


I mean, technically the phantom does rank higher than assassin in my book because it does solve one major issue with the assassin: how often the ability comes up.

Idk about your table, but the situations where assassinate actually happen almost seem to be set up specifically so they can do it. The phantom will dish out almost as much damage (1x extra sneak attack instead of double all dice) each day as opposed to the assassin that maybe can do their level 3 ability each day with the right setup.

[heavyfuel]

I mean, technically the phantom does rank higher than assassin in my book because it does solve one major issue with the assassin: how often the ability comes up.

Idk about your table, but the situations where assassinate actually happen almost seem to be set up specifically so they can do it. The phantom will dish out almost as much damage (1x extra sneak attack instead of double all dice) each day as opposed to the assassin that maybe can do their level 3 ability each day with the right setup.

I'm thinking that in Tier 1, if the Assassin gets a single assassinate in the day then they deal more damage than the Phantom, and they've also helped the action economy for that fight, saving resources. If they get two assassinates (not super likely) then they've blown the Phantom out of the water.

Plus, two pretty good tool proficiencies is probably better than the Phantom's floating one.

[BisectedBrioche]

I'm personally disappointed they didn't move the trinkets from level 9 to level 3. With the exception of the floating proficiency and extra damage on PB/long rest to a second creature, you're going to feel like you didn't even get a subclass for most of the game.

If the subclass defining feature is the trinkets, then move a weakened version of it to level 3.

Rant over. It's a cool roleplay idea, but actual implementation seems really lackluster until level 9.

TBH, I mainly took it because:

1) My favourite thing is to make cheerful and non-angsty characters from edgy fluff.

2) My current rogue is a not-dumb-but-very-foolish CN sort who managed to trade her soul to the fae for tea in session -1.

The idea of her talking to ghosts was irresistible.

[sayaijin]

I'm thinking that in Tier 1, if the Assassin gets a single assassinate in the day then they deal more damage than the Phantom, and they've also helped the action economy for that fight, saving resources. If they get two assassinates (not super likely) then they've blown the Phantom out of the water.

Plus, two pretty good tool proficiencies is probably better than the Phantom's floating one.

Like I said, the assassin will do more damage if they can use their ability. At my table that normally requires the DM actually building the encounter such that they can do it. It rarely happens organically because of how surprise works, and how the rest of the party approaches combat.

Speaking of surprise, I consider the phantom kind of a fixed assassin because you no longer have to worry about surprise, and figuring out how it works with the DM.

The two proficiencies may be better than one floating one, but that's like saying knowing ten spells is better than having a spell book of five interchangeable spells...maybe?


TBH, I mainly took it because:

1) My favourite thing is to make cheerful and non-angsty characters from edgy fluff.

2) My current rogue is a not-dumb-but-very-foolish CN sort who managed to trade her soul to the fae for tea in session -1.

The idea of her talking to ghosts was irresistible.

I'm sorry I ranted so negatively. It really is a cool subclass, and the idea of being a floating ghost that can go through opponents (definitely pick up mobile feat to do so without the half move penalty) is awesome. I've gotten my DM to allow me to refluff the wails as phantom duplicates of the creatures the trinkets came from...so when I use a trinket to activate wails, it's a ghost scratching/stabbing them instead of just a spooky sound.

Shameless plug time! I actually liked the concept so much that I homebrewed a rework of the class where instead of getting more damage than a regular rogue, you instead get more tanky...which I felt was more thematic of someone who plays with the line between life and death.

[BisectedBrioche]

Like I said, the assassin will do more damage if they can use their ability. At my table that normally requires the DM actually building the encounter such that they can do it. It rarely happens organically because of how surprise works, and how the rest of the party approaches combat.

Speaking of surprise, I consider the phantom kind of a fixed assassin because you no longer have to worry about surprise, and figuring out how it works with the DM.

The two proficiencies may be better than one floating one, but that's like saying knowing ten spells is better than having a spell book of five interchangeable spells...maybe?



I'm sorry I ranted so negatively. It really is a cool subclass, and the idea of being a floating ghost that can go through opponents (definitely pick up mobile feat to do so without the half move penalty) is awesome. I've gotten my DM to allow me to refluff the wails as phantom duplicates of the creatures the trinkets came from...so when I use a trinket to activate wails, it's a ghost scratching/stabbing them instead of just a spooky sound.

Shameless plug time! I actually liked the concept so much that I homebrewed a rework of the class where instead of getting more damage than a regular rogue, you instead get more tanky...which I felt was more thematic of someone who plays with the line between life and death.


No offence taken. I've always been more about fluff than mechanic, otherwise I'd roll something other than a rogue at some point. :smalltongue:

[sayaijin]

No offence taken. I've always been more about fluff than mechanic, otherwise I'd roll something other than a rogue at some point. :smalltongue:

Well then I highly recommend refluffing wails to be ghost attacks instead of spooky noises!

Good luck!

[jojosskul]

I have to agree that it works BEST when you know you're going to get to at least level 9, and hopefully play around quite a bit in tier 3. The thing is, unlike some other level 3 Rogue abilities, these actually improve as you go up in level.

Your wails from the grave both increases in damage and frequency of use as you level up. At level 5 it you can use it three times, it goes up to 3d6 at 7, and of course at level 9 the world and subclass crack open for you and you're just limited by how many people die around you. So while it is a small increase, it IS progression. The only other subclasses that gives any progression to it's subclass abilities before level 9 are Arcane Trickster and the new Soulknife. And with Soulknife none of the progressive powers have any practical combat application until level 9 anyway.

On the utility/skill side, which is one of the main reasons people choose Rogue, the ability to have any proficiency you want, including regular skills and tool proficiencies, on a short rest is circumstantial, but it covers SOOOO many circumstances. And then, suddenly at level 11, you can pick any skill you want every hour to have Reliable Talent with.

Is it the best rogue subclass? No. But it isn't the worst. On my personal list I'd say it's better than Assassin, Mastermind, and Inquisitive. I'd call it competitive with Soul Knife and Thief. Depending on what you WANT out of a rogue, Swashbuckler and Scout can be better. And Arcane Trickster still rules them all.

I may have just talked myself into playing a Phantom Rogue. Didn't think that would happen till I took the time compare the subclasses side by side.

[sayaijin]

I have to agree that it works BEST when you know you're going to get to at least level 9, and hopefully play around quite a bit in tier 3. The thing is, unlike some other level 3 Rogue abilities, these actually improve as you go up in level.

Your wails from the grave both increases in damage and frequency of use as you level up. At level 5 it you can use it three times, it goes up to 3d6 at 7, and of course at level 9 the world and subclass crack open for you and you're just limited by how many people die around you. So while it is a small increase, it IS progression. The only other subclasses that gives any progression to it's subclass abilities before level 9 are Arcane Trickster and the new Soulknife. And with Soulknife none of the progressive powers have any practical combat application until level 9 anyway.

On the utility/skill side, which is one of the main reasons people choose Rogue, the ability to have any proficiency you want, including regular skills and tool proficiencies, on a short rest is circumstantial, but it covers SOOOO many circumstances. And then, suddenly at level 11, you can pick any skill you want every hour to have Reliable Talent with.

Is it the best rogue subclass? No. But it isn't the worst. On my personal list I'd say it's better than Assassin, Mastermind, and Inquisitive. I'd call it competitive with Soul Knife and Thief. Depending on what you WANT out of a rogue, Swashbuckler and Scout can be better. And Arcane Trickster still rules them all.

I may have just talked myself into playing a Phantom Rogue. Didn't think that would happen till I took the time compare the subclasses side by side.

If your DM allows homebrew, I've put a lot of work into the subclass rework in my signature. Turns the phantom into a tank rogue, which I thought was design space that hadn't been covered yet.

[Sception]

I love the phantom conceptually, but have a few problems with the implementation. First, as everyone's already mentioned, it's lacking in both mechanical and narrative oomph until you get the soul trinkets feature, so unless you're starting at or near level nine it can feel very lackluster. Dipping 1 to 3 levels into some other, at least marginally more front loaded class can help alleviate this. Good thematic fits include hexblade warlock, gloomstalker ranger, twilight cleric, or whispers bard, though the stats may be difficult to fit well. Less thematically, 2 to 3 levels of battlemaster fighter is a nice fit for most rogues.

A slightly more frustrating aspect of the subclass, to me anyway, is that the tokens require a free hand on not your turn to create, so you can't create them while wielding two weapons or a weapon & shield at all. They also require you to be within 30 feet of the target when they die, so a long ranged bow or crossbow build also doesn't work well. You will always be super vulnerable as a phantom rogue, unable to avoid close range combat but also unable to use a shield if you pick up the proficiency somewhere, and you don't even get to take advantage of the marginal offensive boost from dual wielding which other shieldless close quarters rogues get to take advantage of.

It's just kind of awkward, and it cuts into the extra damage you'd otherwise think you were getting out of the subclass because you basically have to fight with one hand tied behind your back.

[ATHATH]

Doesn't Tasha's have subclass retraining rules? Can't you just take another Rogue subclass up to 9th level, then switch to Phantom?

[BisectedBrioche]

Well then I highly recommend refluffing wails to be ghost attacks instead of spooky noises!

Good luck!

Liches do something similar with a Lair ability, so I might run that by my DM.


Doesn't Tasha's have subclass retraining rules? Can't you just take another Rogue subclass up to 9th level, then switch to Phantom?

It's a strategy, but in my case I'm taking it for flavour (and my current DM's big on making sure class choices have in character reasons), so that would miss the point.

[BerzerkerUnit]

I'll say only this:

I can finally make a Kobold Phantom Rogue named Tonberry.