[3.5] Maybe PrCs can't delay Advanced Learning and you still get them if you PrC?

[radthemad4]

So, here are some quotes from PrCs that advance casting.


When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day.


When a new thaumaturgist level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of thaumaturgist to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.


When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.So, from super strict RAW, I guess some PrCs don't give you new spells known if you're a spontaneous caster (e.g. Thaumaturgist and Mystic Theurge don't mention spells known though Archmage does), but I doubt anyone would rule it that way so I'm not going to dwell on that. However, isn't Advanced Learning a 'Spell Known you would have gained if you'd gained a level in whatever spellcasting class you belonged to before PrCing'?

[Kish]

I think just as the intention is clear enough that few people would rule that a mystic theurge doesn't get new spells knows, the intention is clear enough that few people would rule that a warmage gets Advanced Learning on a level that isn't actually a warmage level.

[Venger]

RAW is clear on this. It's a class feature, so you don't get it.

Balancewise, it's certainly fine and is a reasonable houserule.

[Ramza00]

I am going to get heat for this, but advanced learnings are barely better than “dead levels” which give you throw away abilities.

You get
4 new spells known for warmage,
5 with dread necro, 6 with beguiler.

Sure it is nice to get free stuff but it will not really increase your versatility or power. In effect it is two things, some free gold instead of getting the same exact spells via a MIC Runestaff, and two it allows you grab spells from later spell books for your fixed list without your DM complaining. I think this second benefit is of minimal benefits at the right table who should be encouraging changing the spell list of fixed casters by 1/6th to 1/5th anyway if the player wants a few different spells that follow a theme and is not a massively changed of power. Reward player creativity and fun for that creates a growth exuberance atmosphere at the table which is fun.

[NigelWalmsley]

RAW is clear on this. It's a class feature, so you don't get it.

The quoted sections don't say you don't get class features. They says you get spells per day and spell knowledge, and not other things. Advanced Learning is spell knowledge, so a surface reading would suggest you get it. Is there some other rule you think is relevant?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Let's say you go Beguiler 6/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 1 with it ruled as such. Your Mindbender 1 level will give you all the spells known of a 7th level Beguiler, including the Advanced Learning. But wait, on your next level you gain the 7th level of Beguiler, including the Advanced Learning class feature! Thus you actually gain the Advanced Learning spell twice!

This doesn't work out the way you think it does, and it only makes these classes better off for dipping a prestige class to delay it.

[Telonius]

One part that isn't bolded is important:


He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.

The "+1 level of existing..." is in the "Spells per Day" column of Archmage, Thaumaturgist, and Mystic Theurge.

"Advanced Learning" does not appear in the "Spells per Day" column of Beguiler (or any of the other fixed-list casters). It isn't mentioned in the "Spells" text description. It's in the "Special" column, and listed separately, along with all of the other class features - meaning Advanced Learning is its own class ability, unrelated to Spells per Day or the standard list of spells known. It's an "other benefit" that the class gives to the character, which means Archmage and company don't grant it.

Another thing that clearly differentiates it: it's listed as an (Ex) ability.

[Doctor Despair]

One part that isn't bolded is important:



The "+1 level of existing..." is in the "Spells per Day" column of Archmage, Thaumaturgist, and Mystic Theurge.

"Advanced Learning" does not appear in the "Spells per Day" column of Beguiler (or any of the other fixed-list casters). It isn't mentioned in the "Spells" text description. It's in the "Special" column, and listed separately, along with all of the other class features - meaning Advanced Learning is its own class ability, unrelated to Spells per Day or the standard list of spells known. It's an "other benefit" that the class gives to the character, which means Archmage and company don't grant it.

Another thing that clearly differentiates it: it's listed as an (Ex) ability.

To be fair, text does trump table, so even though Advanced Learning doesn't appear in the spells per day column, a very specific reading would still not preclude it from being included in the benefits. I'm not convinced it's the most correct reading, but it's not explicitly without RAW support.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As I said, even if the RAW means you get the Advanced Learning spell from a "+1 level of existing class" prestige class, by RAW you'll still get the Advanced Learning class feature and the spell it grants at the appropriate class level. So all this accomplishes is allowing those characters to double-up on advanced learning spells known, it doesn't prevent them from picking a higher level spell by delaying it with a prestige class level.

[radthemad4]

As I said, even if the RAW means you get the Advanced Learning spell from a "+1 level of existing class" prestige class, by RAW you'll still get the Advanced Learning class feature and the spell it grants at the appropriate class level. So all this accomplishes is allowing those characters to double-up on advanced learning spells known, it doesn't prevent them from picking a higher level spell by delaying it with a prestige class level.Wouldn't this also apply to spells per day if you go back to a base class after PrCing? Like if you go Wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 10 and then take a level in Wizard, wouldn't you get the spells per day from the 6th level of Wizard again (would it overlap?) instead of 16th because base classes don't say '+1 spellcasting' and just reference a table instead?

Also, sorry about the late reply. Been going through some stuff.

[Gruftzwerg]

So, from super strict RAW, I guess some PrCs don't give you new spells known if you're a spontaneous caster ....


I don't think so:

the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one

you gain new spells as if you had gained one lvl in that class.
now lets have a look what SRD has to say on Sorcerer spells on lvlUp:

A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

as always in d&d, you need to look in the right book at the right place. I know it annoying..^^

[radthemad4]

I don't think so:


you gain new spells as if you had gained one lvl in that class.
now lets have a look what SRD has to say on Sorcerer spells on lvlUp:


as always in d&d, you need to look in the right book at the right place. I know it annoying..^^The heading of that section is 'Spells', not 'Spells per day' though. I don't see anything in there that says you get more spells known when you get more spells per day, just for gaining sorcerer levels.

[Gruftzwerg]

The heading of that section is 'Spells', not 'Spells per day' though. I don't see anything in there that says you get more spells known when you get more spells per day, just for gaining sorcerer levels.

I thought the bold parts would make it obvious.

1. the prc (in out chase theurge and thaumaturgist) says: "gain new spells as if he had also gained a level in any one..."
Imho it is clear that you can only gain new spells by "knowing" em.

2. The text refers to the lvlUp rules for spellprogress the base casting class has. This gives you access to anything lvlUp related in the "Spells:" section of the class you are progressing.

3. It would make more sense to argue that the PRCs don't give you the spell-slot progression and that it only talks about "new spells" that you gain, if you want a pure "RAW" point of view here.


I think the fact that the PRC rule text is referring to the entire spell lvlUp process (of the class you are progressing) should kill any doubts that may derive from the other parts of the rule text.

[Vaern]

Advanced Learning is a class feature gained through class progression, not spellcasting progression. Warmages and beguilers don't get advanced learning as part of a prestige class's spell progression any more than wizards get their bonus metamagic feats under similar circumstances.


I thought the bold parts would make it obvious.

1. the prc (in out chase theurge and thaumaturgist) says: "gain new spells as if he had also gained a level in any one..."
Imho it is clear that you can only gain new spells by "knowing" em.
That isn't what they say, though. They say you gain new spells per day. That means you gain new spell slots, not new spells. That may seem like a clear conclusion to you, but you only got there by cutting out the important bit so you could misquote the entry and grossly misinterpret it.


2. The text refers to the lvlUp rules for spellprogress the base casting class has. This gives you access to anything lvlUp related in the "Spells:" section of the class you are progressing.
It doesn't reference spell progression rules for the base class. It says you gain new spells per day and an increase to caster level. Every spellcasting class has a spells per day table, and spontaneous casters have a separate spells known table.



3. It would make more sense to argue that the PRCs don't give you the spell-slot progression and that it only talks about "new spells" that you gain, if you want a pure "RAW" point of view here.
Both classes have a section labeled "Spells per day" which says that they gain spells per day as if you had gained a level in your base spellcaster class. You advance down the base class's spells per day table, per their class progression table. This gives you additional daily spell slots. From a pure RAW point of view, there is absolutely no way that gaining spells known rather than spell slots would make any sense in the case of these classes.
Almost every other spellcaster prestige class comes with a section labeled "Spells per Day/Spells Known" which specifies that you gain new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had gained a level in your base spellcaster class. In Complete Mage this entry is simply labeled "Spellcasting," but contains the same wording that specifies that you do in fact gain spells known. In almost every other case, you advance down their spells per day table and spells known table gaining additional spell slots and spells known.
The only way you can arrive at a ruling in which "spells per day" means that you gain additional spells known but not spells per day is by ignoring a significant bit of the original entry, cutting it out so you can misquote it, deliberately misinterpreting it, and then declaring your own misguided opinion to be RAW.

The fact that almost every other prestige class makes this distinction indicating that they gain spells known in addition to spells per day indicates a number of things.
First and foremost, it is incorrect to assume that gaining new spells per day as though you gained a level in a spellcasting class should also grant spells known when it is not specified. The fact that they feel the need to specify this detail indicates that it needs to be specified.
Second, the fact that this distinction is made on most prestige classes except the ones referenced indicates that its exclusion from these two is deliberate and significant- they are not meant to gain spells known. The fact that there is no errata to correct this further indicates that this was intentional.

The likely reason is that the creators of these classes expected them to appeal to wizards specifically, who can learn new spells outside of what they normally learn automatically when leveling up via scrolls and copying other wizards' spellbooks, so losing your two free spells per level may have been an intentional tradeoff for the class features granted by these classes. As for the divine component of mystic theurge, clerics don't need to know spells. They can prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided they can cast spells of that level, so simply gaining a higher level spell slot via spells per day progression gives them all of their new spells. The exclusion of gaining new spells known is only a minor inconvenience for a cleric/wizard, though it would absolutely cripple a favored soul/sorcerer.
...but then again, this speculation doesn't really make a difference in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't matter why the classes are written the way they are. All that matters is that they are written the way they are.

[nedz]

Let's say you go Beguiler 6/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 1 with it ruled as such. Your Mindbender 1 level will give you all the spells known of a 7th level Beguiler, including the Advanced Learning. But wait, on your next level you gain the 7th level of Beguiler, including the Advanced Learning class feature! Thus you actually gain the Advanced Learning spell twice!

This doesn't work out the way you think it does, and it only makes these classes better off for dipping a prestige class to delay it.

Nope - you are trying to read this interpretation both ways :smallamused:

Either AL is a class feature or it's part of the spellcasting.

Nice try though.

BTW It's a class feature.