how does liquid pain work?

[newguydude1]

Casting Time: 1 day
Over the course of one day, the caster takes a subject already in great pain—wracked with disease, the victim of torture, or dying of a wound, for example—and captures its pain in liquid form.

so do you cast for 1 day, touch a creature, and then what?
also what if you reduce the casting time to 1 standard action?

how does this spell work?

[Draken]

so do you cast for 1 day, touch a creature, and then what?
also what if you reduce the casting time to 1 standard action?

how does this spell work?

The casting time is 1 day, the reiteration in the spell's description is functionally fluff. But other than that, yes, you spend 24 hours (or, more precisely, 14,400 full round actions) casting the spell and then you get a touch 'attack' to perform once. Rules for holding touch attacks should apply.

I cannot recall off the top of my head if reducing cast times that long is even possible, but I think it isn't, so the question seems moot. But arguably, at that point the First line of text stops being fluff and becomes the spell effect, you just no longer need to be around for it anymore.

For comparison, the Pain Extractor item also takes one day to perform the task.

[newguydude1]

The casting time is 1 day, the reiteration in the spell's description is functionally fluff. But other than that, yes, you spend 24 hours (or, more precisely, 14,400 full round actions) casting the spell and then you get a touch 'attack' to perform once. Rules for holding touch attacks should apply.

I cannot recall off the top of my head if reducing cast times that long is even possible, but I think it isn't, so the question seems moot. But arguably, at that point the First line of text stops being fluff and becomes the spell effect, you just no longer need to be around for it anymore.

For comparison, the Pain Extractor item also takes one day to perform the task.

so if you have liquid pain as a sla, its a standard action. dont look up the rules in d20srd its wrong. rules compendium made it clear its a standard action and there are monsters that cast 12 hour casting time spells as a standard action as an sla. so d20srd is wrong.

anyways, so if you have liquid pain as a sla, your saying if i touch a creature 100 times, 24 hours later i get 100 doses of liquid pain?

[Draken]

so if you have liquid pain as a sla, its a standard action. dont look up the rules in d20srd its wrong. rules compendium made it clear its a standard action and there are monsters that cast 12 hour casting time spells as a standard action as an sla. so d20srd is wrong.

anyways, so if you have liquid pain as a sla, your saying if i touch a creature 100 times, 24 hours later i get 100 doses of liquid pain?

I had to go confirm this and it mildly frustrates me that this is, indeed, the rule. But yes. Strictly speaking, by the text of the spell, that is how it works.

It reeks, but you can do that.

[sreservoir]

Best I can tell, the spell as written normally takes about two days to use: first, one day to cast; then, once you've cast it, you can touch the target and the effect requires you to spend another day to extract the agony.

Now, if you're not cheesing down the casting time, you'd have a good case to argue that the RAW is poorly written and the spell's author didn't properly think through the "all pertinent decisions about a spell when the spell comes into effect" thing. But in that case it probably wouldn't really matter all that much whether you're taking a day or two days to do the extraction, either.

[newguydude1]

more relevant text

It takes a full day to distill a dose of liquid pain with the liquid pain spell or a pain extractor. A victim cannot endure—or produce, to put it another way—more extractions of pain
than it has points of Constitution

so cant be 100, must be points of constitution.
afaict the number doesnt reset so i guess all characters can only give a finite number of doses.


Best I can tell, the spell as written normally takes about two days to use: first, one day to cast; then, once you've cast it, you can touch the target and the effect requires you to spend another day to extract the agony.

extraction is automated right. tap the guy and he will drip out agony into the focus without any maintenance from the caster right? cause no rules about interruption or stuff like that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

so if you have liquid pain as a sla, its a standard action. dont look up the rules in d20srd its wrong. rules compendium made it clear its a standard action and there are monsters that cast 12 hour casting time spells as a standard action as an sla. so d20srd is wrong.

anyways, so if you have liquid pain as a sla, your saying if i touch a creature 100 times, 24 hours later i get 100 doses of liquid pain?

No it isn't. That text and the rules compendium text don't conflict. Both say "usually a standard action." SRD says match the spell unless otherwise noted, rules compendium says match the spell if it's less than a standard. Nowhere does it say always a standard unless the mimicked spell is less.

Usually =/= always

The table on page 8 is superscripted and directs you to look to the spell like ability for instruction. It is included in the table under "standard" because that's "usually" correct but, thanks to the superscript, not definitive.

[newguydude1]

No it isn't. That text and the rules compendium text don't conflict. Both say "usually a standard action." SRD says match the spell unless otherwise noted, rules compendium says match the spell if it's less than a standard. Nowhere does it say always a standard unless the mimicked spell is less.

Usually =/= always

The table on page 8 is superscripted and directs you to look to the spell like ability for instruction. It is included in the table under "standard" because that's "usually" correct but, thanks to the superscript, not definitive.

d20srd is not rules. its nothing. its supposed to be easy access rules of the phb but its not. it adds its own house rules everywhere.

so lets see.
1st party book monsters using spells with long casting times as standard action sla
rules compendium directly saying its a standard action unless noted otherwise, or the original casting time is less than a standard action. meaning original spell casting time is not "noted otherwise".

v.s.
you trying to cram in d20srds house rule by a table referenced for swift actions? what?

im not gonna entertain any argument that uses d20srds house rule, or any argument that makes all the monsters that use long duration casting time spells as a standard action sla illegal.


A special ability takes the indicated action to perform unless the ability’s description says otherwise. A spelllike ability that duplicates a spell with a casting time of less than 1 standard action has the same casting time as the duplicated spell

If the spell-like ability duplicates a spell that has a casting time of less than 1 standard action, the spell-like ability has that casting time.

thats twice where the rules say only faster than standard action cast times get to be the spells cast time.
spell description =/= ability description

[One Step Two]

d20srd is not rules.

The SRD is a combination reprint of the open source content of core books and the updates from the rules compendium. Heck, the parts of the Rules compendium you are quoting are in the SRD about Spell-Like abilities. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) I have my copy of the Rules compendium open, they are line for line the same.

[newguydude1]

The SRD is a combination reprint of the open source content of core books and the updates from the rules compendium. Heck, the parts of the Rules compendium you are quoting are in the SRD about Spell-Like abilities. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) I have my copy of the Rules compendium open, they are line for line the same.

gimme page number that says

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated.

[One Step Two]

gimme page number that says

That would be from the 3.5 Monster Manual, page 315. As I said, the SRD is a combination of all Open Source material, in the case of spell-like abilities, it references the rules found in the DMG, MM and Rules compendium.

Edit: Also, Rules Compendium, page 118. It's there too, paragraph 4, under the Spell-like abilities header, which is under the Special Abilities section.

[newguydude1]

That would be from the 3.5 Monster Manual, page 315. As I said, the SRD is a combination of all Open Source material, in the case of spell-like abilities, it references the rules found in the DMG, MM and Rules compendium.

Edit: Also, Rules Compendium, page 118. It's there too, paragraph 4, under the Spell-like abilities header, which is under the Special Abilities section.

this is mm

Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity

this is rules compendium

Using a spell-like ability usually takes 1 standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity unless otherwise noted

this d20srd house rule

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated.

r u not seeing where the house rule is and where the actual rules are?

if you cannot find a sourcebook that says sla cast time is the same as the spell it mimics, then your wrong, and d20srd is a house rule sneaking unreliable source.

rules compendium very clearly stated that
original spell casting time =/= otherwise noted
this is open and shut, further proved by monsters who use long duration cast time spells as a standard action in their own monster entry.

[One Step Two]

I will concede that there is no word-for-word copy of the line the SRD uses, but I believe it's in reference to this line:


A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description.

Apologies for the confusion, but there's the primary source for you.

Edit: Where the rules get funny, is if you have a class feature which specifically lets you turn a spell into a spell-like and calls it out as a standard action, that might be the case where general trumps specific.

[magicalmagicman]

I will concede that there is no word-for-word copy of the line the SRD uses, but I believe it's in reference to this line:



Apologies for the confusion, but there's the primary source for you.

Edit: Where the rules get funny, is if you have a class feature which specifically lets you turn a spell into a spell-like and calls it out as a standard action, that might be the case where general trumps specific.

Both Monster Manual and Rules Compendium trump Players Handbook. Primary Source Rule. Monster Manual is the primary source for all monster related things, and Rules Compendium trumps everything.

[newguydude1]

I will concede that there is no word-for-word copy of the line the SRD uses, but I believe it's in reference to this line:



Apologies for the confusion, but there's the primary source for you.

Edit: Where the rules get funny, is if you have a class feature which specifically lets you turn a spell into a spell-like and calls it out as a standard action, that might be the case where general trumps specific.

ok, i was wrong, d20srd is not a house rule sneaking unreliable source.

but rules compendium beats players handbook so im still right.

[One Step Two]

ok, i was wrong, d20srd is not a house rule sneaking unreliable source.

but rules compendium beats players handbook so im still right.

Could you elaborate how the Rules compendium overrules the phb?

[newguydude1]

Could you elaborate how the Rules compendium overrules the phb?

introduction of rules compendium


The book you hold in your hands is the definitive guide for how to play the 3.5 revision of the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Roleplaying Game. Years in the making, it gathers resources from a wide variety of supplements, rules errata, and rules clarifications to provide an authoritative guide for playing the D&D game. It updates and elucidates the rules, as well as expanding on them in ways that make it more fun and easier to play. When a preexisting core book or supplement differs with the rules herein, Rules Compendium is meant to take precedence. If you have a question on how to play D&D at the table, this book is meant to answer that question.

to put this all together
1. rules compendium beats all
2. rules compendium p.8 directly says

A special ability takes the indicated action to perform unless the ability’s description says otherwise. A spelllike ability that duplicates a spell with a casting time of less than 1 standard action has the same casting time as the duplicated spell
3. rules compendium p.118 says slas are standard action unless casting time is lower than standard action, or noted otherwise. if spell description was "noted otherwise" then the rules wouldnt single out immediate and swift action casting times out, twice in fact.
4. your phb quote directly says ability description =/= spell description

therefore all slas are standard actions unless the monster entry itself says its not.

[Crake]

I will concede that there is no word-for-word copy of the line the SRD uses, but I believe it's in reference to this line:



Apologies for the confusion, but there's the primary source for you.

Edit: Where the rules get funny, is if you have a class feature which specifically lets you turn a spell into a spell-like and calls it out as a standard action, that might be the case where general trumps specific.

Firstly, the fact that there is no word-for-word copy of the line from d20srd (not "the" SRD by the way, the SRD is a publically available set of documents published by wizards of the coast) means that d20srd are taking their own interpretations of rules and publishing them as RAW, when that's not the case. Kinda irritating in all honesty.

That aside, the line you quoted from the PHB is directly contradicted by every other source, including another source within the phb itself, page 142, which specifically says "The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise." Note it doesn't say "Usually" anywhere, it is flat out a standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise, No mention of spell descriptions. Rules compendium adds to this rule, saying that if an SLA duplicates a spell that normally has a casting time of less than a standard action, it uses that casting time instead, so spells like feather fall aren't useless as SLAs.

This is also backed up, as newguy said, by monsters in the MM1, on more than one occasion, being cited as using SLAs of spells with long casting times in the middle of combat.

[newguydude1]

This is also backed up, as newguy said, by monsters in the MM1, on more than one occasion, being cited as using SLAs of spells with long casting times in the middle of combat.

just for completeness sake, could you list like 2 monsters that do that? all i remember is mirror mephit and thats not in mm1.

[gogogome]

Look at every ganging up on the nice man who hunted down the rule d20srd was using.

Concerning the OP's original question, spell descriptions often refer to their own casting time.

Contingency for example.

The 10-minute casting time is the minimum total for both castings; if the companion spell has a casting time longer than 10 minutes, use that instead.
Does this mean that Shadow Evocation's casting time is increased to 10minutes minimum? The answer is no.

So obviously the "over the course of a one day" refers to casting time and casting time only and is ignored if the spell is cast as an SLA.

[One Step Two]

This is also backed up, as newguy said, by monsters in the MM1, on more than one occasion, being cited as using SLAs of spells with long casting times in the middle of combat.

I still take it at face value that even using only the rules compendium as a single source, the description of "Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they’re described[...] Using a spell-like ability usually takes 1 standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity unless otherwise noted." Is pointing out that there are exceptions to the single standard action, much like monsters who can cast spells of longer cast time as a standard action in their own stat-block.

In this case, unless your method of gaining Liquid Pain as an SLA specifically calls out the change to the casting time or action, it would still take a full day. As gogogome pointed out, using Shadow Evocation trumps the 10 minute cast time of contingency, and like it, unless your method of gaining an SLA changes it, it become the exception to the rule "Usually takes a standard action", in this case, it is unusual.

With that said, if you are simply granting a player or creature the ability to cast liquid pain as an SLA, we're in homebrew territory, and then it does not matter what the rules say at all.

[newguydude1]

I still take it at face value that even using only the rules compendium as a single source, the description of "Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they’re described[...] Using a spell-like ability usually takes 1 standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity unless otherwise noted." Is pointing out that there are exceptions to the single standard action, much like monsters who can cast spells of longer cast time as a standard action in their own stat-block.

In this case, unless your method of gaining Liquid Pain as an SLA specifically calls out the change to the casting time or action, it would still take a full day. As gogogome pointed out, using Shadow Evocation trumps the 10 minute cast time of contingency, and like it, unless your method of gaining an SLA changes it, it become the exception to the rule "Usually takes a standard action", in this case, it is unusual.

you forgot this part of rule compendium

A special ability takes the indicated action to perform unless the ability’s description says otherwise. A spelllike ability that duplicates a spell with a casting time of less than 1 standard action has the same casting time as the duplicated spell.

no wiggle room. ability description =/= spell description. slas are standard action. end of discussion. this all started because kelb was trying to thwart rules compendium with d20srd. this is open and shut. rules compendium says unless ability description says otherwise. ability description doesnt. so open and shut.


With that said, if you are simply granting a player or creature the ability to cast liquid pain as an SLA, we're in homebrew territory, and then it does not matter what the rules say at all.

what? there are tons and tons of ways of getting liquid pain as an sla. archmage for one. and theres a creature with liquid pain as an sla. wtf you talking about. its not homebrew.