Do the old Sorcerer subclasses really have better features?

[bendking]

I've seen comments saying that part of the balance of the new subclasses is that they have lesser features than the old subclasses in exchange for the bonus spell list. Today I would like to put that argument to the test by comparing Clockwork Soul to the rest of the Sorcerer subclasses (without taking into account the 14th and 18th level features which most players will never get).
Clockwork Soul has Clockwork Magic, Restore Balance, and Bastion of Law. These are 3 features, none of which is a ribbon, and one of them is crazy good (Clockwork Magic). However, I will not compare any of the features to Clockwork Magic because it would obviously be better than all of them. I will only compare features with Restore Balance and Bastion of Law and mention Clockwork Magic when appropriate to judge a feature's usefulness.

Draconic Sorcerer
Dragon Ancestor - Mostly a ribbon. Influences Elemental Affinity later.
Draconic Resilience - Typically a great feature, but then you notice Clockwork Soul can get Mage Armor and Shield on his spell list for free (sure, you have to waste a 1st level slot to cast Mage Armor, but it's just a 1st level), the natural armor you get from this feature isn't looking that great anymore, when it used to be considered fantastic partly for saving you a single spell known. That leaves us with the +1 HP per level, which is good for a squishy class, but removing disadvantage/advantage from saving throws 2-6 times a day is better.
Elemental Affinity - Big blasty spells! This is a fantastic feature for blasters, which I would say is definitely better than Bastion of Law.

Summary:
1 ribbon, 1 worse, 1 better.

Wild Magic Sorcerer
Wild Magic Surge - A 1/20 chance for a Wild Surge upon casting a spell is basically a ribbon.
Tides of Chaos - Ah, Tides of Chaos. If your DM is favorable towards you and triggers the surge often, or even all the time, this feature is fantastic. If he doesn't at all, this feature sucks. Weird feature to rate, to be honest.
Bend Luck - A decent feature, if somewhat expensive. 1d4 reduction from saving throws is great, of course, but the price is quite high. I would be hard-pressed to say that this is definitely better than Bastion of Law, a similarly expensive option, but one that uniquely lets you nova combat-preperation. For the sake of being extra fair and avoiding arguments, let's say that this is better than Bastion of Law.

Summary:
1 ribbon, 1 schrodinger's feature, 1 better.

Storm Sorcerer
Wind Speaker - Ribbon.
Tempestuous Magic - 10 feet of movement as a bonus action upon casting a leveled spell (with no AoO) is definitely worse than Restore Balance in my mind.
Heart of the Storm - A mediocre close-range AoE is not a good feature for a Sorcerer and is definitely not as good as Bastion of Law.

Summary:
1 ribbon, 2 worse.

Shadow Sorcerer
Eyes of the Dark - Hey, that's pretty good. The Darkvision is great, but the free Darkness doesn't do much for us now that we can get 10 spells known as Clockwork Soul.
Strength of the Grave - OK feature. Might save you from death, but probably won't if you're facing high CR enemies with big hits. Restore Balance is better in my opinion.
Hound of Ill Omen - Free metamagic, and it's an improved Heighten. Better than Bastion of Law for sure.

Summary:
1 not-a-ribbon-but-not-as-good-as-before, 1 worse, 1 better

Divine Soul Sorcerer
Divine Magic - Oh boy. OK, so this one is a little tricky, but only because I think a lot of people overestimate how good opening a new spell list for a class with 15 spells known is. Does it open up a new and unique playstyle for Sorcerers? Definitely! Does it make this subclass objectively better than the rest? Definitely not. It also gives a single spell known, which is paltry in comparison to what Clockwork Magic gives us.
Favored by the Gods - Good, but I rate this to be equivalent to Restore Balance if not worse.
Empowered Healing - OK. The 5 feet limitation is quite harsh, and it also only works on a single ally, so you can't empower mass cure wounds and the like. Bastion of Law is at least equivalent if not outright better. To be extra fair, let's say equivalent.

Summary:
1 not-a-ribbon-but-not-incredible-either, 1 worse, 1 equivalent

Conclusion:
The only subclasses with somewhat better features (when not comparing to Clockwork Magic) are Shadow and Divine Soul Draconic, and even then: it's arguable. Even if you concede that they are better, it would only be by a small margin in my opinion. Thus, I believe the argument that the old subclasses have better features, even when not comparing them to a bonus spell list, does not hold water.

[Kane0]

Nice breakdown, I concur.

[Agthor]

Very nice comparison. You make a convincing argument. Thank you for that!

[TheUser]

I am of the opinion that Draconic has the best baseline features because of the early access to +4-5 damage on elemental spells (fire). It gives them a huge output boost that makes them one of the only sorcerers that abuses empower to maximum potential. They punch way above their weight class and they do so early. Even a stingy firebolt can be twinned, and since you only roll once for damage on both targets you technically get the empowered bonus on both (of course some DM's may just be not all about this).

That combined with their free mage armor (both in slot value and spells known), the equivocal d8 hit dice for max hp and the free flight at 14 the only non-tasha's subclass with equivocal features in my humble opinion, is the Shadow Sorcerer.

That having been said Clockwork and Aberrant mind are pretty on par with these two heavy hitters. (This is not to say the others fall behind a great deal; I think that wild mages, divine souls, and storm sor- ok not storm sorcerers, but the others are great). Free telepathy is really good for stealth missions and free subtle spell on a select group of spells is mint, as for clockwork, being able to cancel out magic resistance (and or fear/charm resistance) on a whim is great. I think that if you believe these two new subclasses deserve bonus spells then you should be willing to afford the same courtesy to the others.

Personally, and bear in mind I haven't had time to playtest them yet, but even just from the builds I've been able to concoct, have found that the bonus spells on clockwork are....wow. Like the lists you can come up with are mindboggling strong. If I was to do this with other subclasses I would err on the side of caution lest you watch a sorcerer overshadow all your group's other casters (but for bahamut's sake give the storm sorcerers some good ones like call lightning and maelstrom).

[MaxWilson]

Nice breakdown, I concur.

Also concur.

[Snowbluff]

You undermining your own argument by saying "shadow sorcs just get free darkness" and "oh but this other sub does get another spell too" known even when it's an improve variant of spell aside, I dislike the new sorcerer's features. Look at them aside from the spells they get and up to the level you mention:

Clockwork:

1: Restore balance is ok. You'll definitely get use out of. Pretty nice.
6th level: Bastion of Law is just kinda atrociously bad. It takes your SP and gives you a pretty meager bonus in return. Worst case scenario, that SP could be a Shield or Absorb Elements.


Psionic:

1: Oh boy telepathy. Good think I can use it for miles... oh wait... it only lasts minutes. And I have to be within 30 feet to start the conversation. And I have to share a language. I don't hate it but I feel like an at will option to do some basic telepathy like GoOlock at least would have been something.
6: Psychic defenses is probably not going to come up super often. Frightening is probably the most common effect. They do get to cast their spells for cheaper, which is nice but I don't count it because it doesn't alter them aside from the free subtle spell. Basically you just save a lot of SP/spellslots?

In conclusion, I wouldn't play either of these if it weren't for the spell list. Clockwork's first level feature is probably the best out of all 4. Having such an expanded spell list is just so game-bendingly powerful that not taking these 2 is a hard choice. If the other subclasses had 10 free spells and options to swap them for selection off of the Wizard or Sorc list, I would basically always choose them. It just feels like a horrible bandaid that hasn't been applied to the back catalogue of existing subs. Wizards recognized the mistake of "oh, sorcerer doesn't know enough spells and not enough spells are on the sorcerer list" and instead of adding a variant feature for sorcerer's to know more spells they threw these subs as a package deal with the patch.

Were there better options for subclasses that could have been more interesting when printed? I certainly think so. Sea Sorcery at least has a cool comboing mechanic on it.

[Pex]

I greatly value Dragon Sorcerer not needing to cast Mage Armor. First level spells are important. They're crucial in the low levels. At mid to high levels at the very least it's one more needed Shield or Absorb Elements if you won't use them for anything else.

[Kireban]

I dont agree.

Draconic- having a full time free mage armor cannot be compared to having the spell. Especially in the low levels where you dont have that many slots. A level 1 sorcerer will burn 50% of his slots on that 1 mage armor spell. In the low levels the bonus spells are not that important since you wont even use them thx to the low amount of slots.

Wild Magic- even if the DM never let you refresh tides of chaos, 1 adv is better than 2 removes. If the DM let you refresh it even once it makes it much better. Not to mention that players wont play wild magic if the DM is going to ignore surges. Bend luck is better than the Bastion law for the sole reason that you dont need to cast it as a preparation. You can look at it as increasing your own DC by a minimum of 1 if it is really needed.

Storm-

Shadow- The ribbon in this class is the Strenght of the Grave. It might work once in a while and it will be cool. Not likely. Eyes of the dark gives your Vhuman a free improved darkvision and lets you cast improved darkness with 2 sorcery points. You are going to build your character around it. It is not just 1 bonus spell, it is a defining spell. Being able to walk in darkness and giving yourself adv and your opponents dis is a great defense/offense mechanism. Having some bonus known spells is incomparable.

[MaxWilson]

6th level: Bastion of Law is just kinda atrociously bad. It takes your SP and gives you a pretty meager bonus in return. Worst case scenario, that SP could be a Shield or Absorb Elements.


It's not atrocious. It takes no concentration, doesn't expire until you rest so isn't prone to being wasted, and unlike Shield it can be used to protect others (like NPCs, familiars, and anyone scouting ahead) and works even against crits. It also synergizes with Armor of Agathys BTW. It's expensive but not terrible.

[Snowbluff]

It also synergizes with Armor of Agathys BTW. It's expensive but not terrible.

Synergizing with AoA is considerably outside of the scope of the analysis. The point what looking at it without considering the fact you have nearly double the number of spells other sorcerers have from a much larger list.

[jas61292]

While I don't necessarily agree on every point, I think the overall fact is indisputable that other subclasses features, even if better, in no way come close to making up for the insanely massive gap that is 10 extra spells known that are not even locked down to specific thematic spells. While I would obviously prefer having natural armor to having to use a spell known on Mage Armor, for instance, I'd take mage armor and 9 other spells know over natural armor any day. Its not even a close comparison.

I get that there is an argument to be made that their other features are not as good, but I think this OP does a good job showing how, at worst, the difference is not that large. I just can't help but feel a lot of the claims that it is balanced come from people who know that it is not, but want it anyways, and feel the need to justify it.

[Kireban]

While I don't necessarily agree on every point, I think the overall fact is indisputable that other subclasses features, even if better, in no way come close to making up for the insanely massive gap that is 10 extra spells known that are not even locked down to specific thematic spells. While I would obviously prefer having natural armor to having to use a spell known on Mage Armor, for instance, I'd take mage armor and 9 other spells know over natural armor any day. Its not even a close comparison.

I get that there is an argument to be made that their other features are not as good, but I think this OP does a good job showing how, at worst, the difference is not that large. I just can't help but feel a lot of the claims that it is balanced come from people who know that it is not, but want it anyways, and feel the need to justify it.

It is not just a compare of the list of bonus spells+Restore balance to the first level features of the other classes. It is the fact that the subclass got no recommended play style or special/really good feature. You are going to be a demi wizard with metamagic but without ritual spells.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

It is not just a compare of the list of bonus spells+Restore balance to the first level features of the other classes. It is the fact that the subclass got no recommended play style or special/really good feature. You are going to be a demi wizard with metamagic but without ritual spells.

I largely agree with what you say here. It's not just about evaluating individual abilities; the older subclasses had abilities that were synergistic with other sorcerer abilities and made them greater than the sum of their parts. Draconic bonus damage + empower (+ on occasion quicken and/ or twin cantrip) on AOE really works. The bonus HP and AC mean you can stay in combat for longer. For Shadow the Darkness isn't just a spell. As another poster mentioned you can build your character around being able to see through it during critical combats, as does the hound.
Without something like that, what's the point of playing a Sorc?

[Kane0]

Without something like that, what's the point of playing a Sorc?

5e Sorcs have always lived and died on metamagic. They have nothing else to separate themselves, which is why I really like enabling Spell Points for them (and only them).

[TheUser]

5e Sorcs have always lived and died on metamagic. They have nothing else to separate themselves, which is why I really like enabling Spell Points for them (and only them).

Spell points is much better implemented on Warlocks imho (can be used to smooth out their spell slot increase per level instead of per 2 levels and gives them more than 2 spells per combat).

If you dislike current Sorcerers I advise giving them +1 spells known per tier of play (3 spells known at level 1, 7 known at level 5, 15 at level 11 etc) and the ability to swap 1 spell per long rest so long as the new spell is the same level as the old one. It fixes the problems I largely see with the class. Spell points on Sorcerers is overpowered AF and I honestly don't understand how anyone could advocate for them after level 5... It's absurd by level 9.

[Asmerv]

Spell points is much better implemented on Warlocks imho.

I disagree with this. Automatic upcasting is at the heart of Warlocks unique casting. All or nothing - have to wait for the right moment to unleash spells but when they do it's going to be devastating... That's the fantasy at least, but crippled by poorly scaling spells. At least they used to have the highest DCs with Rod of the Pact Keeper before Tasha's so there was at least a bit of truth to it. Anyway.

In the Sorcerer's case, I think the mechanical core to Sorcerer's casting is supposed to be knowing few spells but being able to get great use out of them with Metamagic. Unfortunately it's similarly not quite hitting the mark (unless you really know what you are doing I suppose). I think the ideal solution would be more Metamagic options and points to play with (why oh why can't they change the shape of spells, for example?) and less restrictions on how to use them, not knowing a bunch more spells.

[Asisreo1]

5e Sorcs have always lived and died on metamagic. They have nothing else to separate themselves, which is why I really like enabling Spell Points for them (and only them).
I disagree. I think they live and die by their greater number of cantrips and their Font of Magic which lets them quickly adjust their spell slots.

Wizards are versatile in that they have a wide variety of spells. Sorcerers are reliable in that they have more access to the spells they do have.

Metamagic is certainly a part of the equation, though. Just not as much as them living and dying by it. Its just the most flashy thing they can uniquely do.

[Kane0]

I disagree with this. Automatic upcasting is at the heart of Warlocks unique casting. All or nothing - have to wait for the right moment to unleash spells but when they do it's going to be devastating... That's the fantasy at least, but crippled by poorly scaling spells. At least they used to have the highest DCs with Rod of the Pact Keeper before Tasha's so there was at least a bit of truth to it. Anyway.

In the Sorcerer's case, I think the mechanical core to Sorcerer's casting is supposed to be knowing few spells but being able to get great use out of them with Metamagic. Unfortunately it's similarly not quite hitting the mark (unless you really know what you are doing I suppose). I think the ideal solution would be more Metamagic options and points to play with (why oh why can't they change the shape of spells, for example?) and less restrictions on how to use them, not knowing a bunch more spells.

Yeah Warlocks already have unique casting, and even though I'm biased towards them I don't think they need the boost that comes with giving spell points over slots. Also, Sorcs already have a point casting mechanic so they're half way there already.

Agreed. I would have liked to see bards, warlocks and sorcerers get bonus subclass spells in a manner similar but not the same as clerics, paladins, druids and rangers; instead of two freebies at each spell level (up to 5th) they get a pair that they pick one of.



I disagree. I think they live and die by their greater number of cantrips and their Font of Magic which lets them quickly adjust their spell slots.

I've never seen the huge appeal of 1-2 more cantrips than other casters but I'll grant adjusting resources via Font of Magic. Spell Points is just that, but more so.



Sorcerers are reliable in that they have more access to the spells they do have.

Can you elaborate on this?

[Gtdead]

Aberrant Sorcerer is officially my favorite caster. It's very flavorful and psionic sorcery makes him extremely well rounded. With access to cheap offensive multipurpose spells like synaptic static and evards he is going to be very fun in combat and he can do all the sorcerer tricks like twinning buffs, dipping warlock etc. Also cheap subtle suggestion for some social engineering.

It's probably going to be my next PC.

[Asisreo1]

I've never seen the huge appeal of 1-2 more cantrips than other casters but I'll grant adjusting resources via Font of Magic. Spell Points is just that, but more so.

When you think of a caster using an at-will effect, there are 3 options. Either be a ritual caster, use a cantrip, or have invocations.

The majority of these features are limited such that you can only have a few of them or they're very specific. Some even use costly components.

Out of these three options, cantrips can be the quickest and most versatile options. Rituals take a while and the best ones require components while also being limited. Invocations are locked behind Warlocks and generally more limited.

I've used cantrips more often in my games as any caster than rituals or invocations unless those invocations are directly tied to combat. Especially for affecting the world with illusions, transmutations, communications, and object movement. Being able to do more of these without sacrificing other combat-related uses is very handy. But that's just my experience.

Can you elaborate on this?[/QUOTE]
Sure.

Imagine a 7th level wizard and sorcerer. They both choose Polymorph and Dimension Door as their 2 4th-level spells.

Now, imagine through unfortunate circumstances, they must both use Dimension Door to get where they want to go. Good, but they immediately get into a fight. The wizard realizes the fight would be made easier with polymorph but doesn't have the slots to use it. The sorcerer, however, is able to convert their slots with a bonus action.

This means their higher level spell slots are "more accessible." Even without spell slot mutation, the act of not needing a short rest makes Font of Magic objectively better than Arcane Recovery for the purposes of recovering spell slots. Its also cheaper.

By the way, a 7th level sorcerer can actually create a 5th-level spell slot and upcast their spells. This is great for spells like Wall of Fire which actually increases the damage by 2d8 since each instance of damage can be expected to be applied (6d8 when Wall of Fire exists and 6d8 when the target attempts an escape or remains inside).

[TheUser]

Yeah Warlocks already have unique casting, and even though I'm biased towards them I don't think they need the boost that comes with giving spell points over slots. Also, Sorcs already have a point casting mechanic so they're half way there already.



Did it ever occur to you that the whole reason slot synthesis was taxed for sorcerers was because being "half way there" (there being spell points) was balanced and that being "all the way there" wasn't? I mean, clearly WotC fiddled with spell points (since it's offered as an alternative) and only gave sorcerers a taxed version because implementing a non-taxed version of spell points is grotesquely overpowered.

Also, why are we clinging to warlocks having only two spell slots? It's terrible game design for player satisfaction; it's like re-implementing favored enemy over and over and over when the ability at its core involves 0 player agency and instead requires the DM to prop up the right enemies for the ranger to fight. Having 2 maxed out spell slots per short rest can get real dicey if you lose concentration. Are we to keep Warlocks in 2-spell limit limbo because "that's just the way it's always been."

I'm willing to throw warlocks a bone because thus far, they feel wretched to play when next to a full caster.

"What's that? A fight going longer than 7 rounds? And you lost concentration on one of your spells!? Well I guess you'll be spamming Eldritch Blast the rest of the fight! HAHAHAHA Are you engaged yet!?"

NTY

[micahaphone]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the UA sorcerers with expanded spell lists didn't have the "you can swap these out for spells from other lists within these schools", right? That's the part that really gets me.
Not doing an optional class variant for other subclasses to get spell lists feels odd, but expanding the options of the origin spells that much is insane. I get that it'll allow you to make a spell list that fits a character concept better (maybe your aberrant mind sorc didn't have a tentacly effect to their powers) but the sheer number of options is amazing.


Edit: the proof of clockwork sorc being powerful just struck me while reading samificer's update at rhe bottom of this thread, looking through his spell list and thinking "yeah that's a pretty good spell list" only to realize half of his spells known at level 5 come from the subclass. That's a major boon.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622829-Clockwork-Soul-question(s)&p=24823060#post24823060

[Kane0]

Imagine a 7th level wizard and sorcerer. They both choose Polymorph and Dimension Door as their 2 4th-level spells.

Now, imagine through unfortunate circumstances, they must both use Dimension Door to get where they want to go. Good, but they immediately get into a fight. The wizard realizes the fight would be made easier with polymorph but doesn't have the slots to use it. The sorcerer, however, is able to convert their slots with a bonus action.

This means their higher level spell slots are "more accessible." Even without spell slot mutation, the act of not needing a short rest makes Font of Magic objectively better than Arcane Recovery for the purposes of recovering spell slots. Its also cheaper.

By the way, a 7th level sorcerer can actually create a 5th-level spell slot and upcast their spells. This is great for spells like Wall of Fire which actually increases the damage by 2d8 since each instance of damage can be expected to be applied (6d8 when Wall of Fire exists and 6d8 when the target attempts an escape or remains inside).

I see. I don't necessarily agree, but this is already off topic and this debate has been hashed out many a time before so i'll leave it at that.



Did it ever occur to you that the whole reason slot synthesis was taxed for sorcerers was because being "half way there" (there being spell points) was balanced and that being "all the way there" wasn't? I mean, clearly WotC fiddled with spell points (since it's offered as an alternative) and only gave sorcerers a taxed version because implementing a non-taxed version of spell points is grotesquely overpowered.

Yeah it did, but it works for my table. For the record it's not the sole change I make to the sorcerer, but that's for the homebrew section.



Also, why are we clinging to warlocks having only two spell slots? It's terrible game design for player satisfaction; it's like re-implementing favored enemy over and over and over when the ability at its core involves 0 player agency and instead requires the DM to prop up the right enemies for the ranger to fight. Having 2 maxed out spell slots per short rest can get real dicey if you lose concentration. Are we to keep Warlocks in 2-spell limit limbo because "that's just the way it's always been."

Again off topic, but Warlocks have plenty on top of their short rest casting and gain more slots at higher level (admittedly, not the most often played at tiers 1-2). The player experience could probably be more easily improved with nicer scaling spells that don't rely on concentration rather than more slots.

In any case I agree with the premise of this thread; the latter subclasses from 'X of Everything' are superior to those prior, and the reason for this is because of greater spell access that goes alongside meaningful features.

[bendking]

In any case I agree with the premise of this thread; the latter subclasses from 'X of Everything' are superior to those prior, and the reason for this is because of greater spell access that goes alongside meaningful features.

The premise is actually that even if we remove the bonus spell list from Tasha's origins, the features of the new subclasses are comparable and sometimes better.

@Kireban + @Snowbluff
As I said, in the case of Wild Magic, Storm Sorcerer and Divine Soul - their features are are highly comparable to Restore Balance and Bastion of Law if not worse.
And in regards to Draconic and Shadow: as I said in the OP - it's arguable (and indeed has been argued by you) that their features are better than Clockwork Soul's, but I hope that I've shown that even if this is true, it's not to a great extent by any means.


Wild Magic- even if the DM never let you refresh tides of chaos, 1 adv is better than 2 removes. If the DM let you refresh it even once it makes it much better. Not to mention that players wont play wild magic if the DM is going to ignore surges. Bend luck is better than the Bastion law for the sole reason that you dont need to cast it as a preparation. You can look at it as increasing your own DC by a minimum of 1 if it is really needed.

Restore balance isn't 2 removes, it scales with your proficiency. By level 9 you can remove magic resistance 4 times a day (or do other stuff with it, but I think that's the main draw).
However, if you think 1 advantage is as good as 2 removes we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Kane0]

The premise is actually that even if we remove the bonus spell list from Tasha's origins, the features of the new subclasses are comparable and sometimes better.


Ah yes my apologies, I was extrapolating.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Nice break down, I think the Eyes of the Grave from the Shadow Sorcerer should be rated higher because it let you see through your own darkness.

I played and run a lot of games that get to high level (the reason I only multiclass for two levels in a different class with my sorcerers, level 18 feature ia usually nice).
The clock work do have a nice level 18 feature

The clockworks do get nice level 14 and 18 features, but I prefer the shadow and storm(in that order) level 14 and 18 features.

The abbarent mind get a nice level 14 and not good as most sorcerers level 18 feature but he get more powerful level 1 and 6 features IMO.

I never liked the Draconic, DS and Wild Sorcerer level 14 and 18 features.

[bendking]

Nice break down, I think the Eyes of the Grave from the Shadow Sorcerer should be rated higher because it let you see through your own darkness.

I didn't mention it because I can hardly see myself use my concentration on Darkness for most combats. I would rather cast something like Careful Hypnotic Pattern, or Twinned Greater Invisibility, etc.
The only way I can see myself casting that spell, even if I can see through it, is on either long adventuring days where I seriously need to conserve my spell slots, or when I'm playing a gish, but then I would probably pick Divine Soul for a gish anyway.
Plus, if you and your party don't coordinate well around it, or haven't built for using Darkness in combat, it can even hamper your team.

[Pex]

Did it ever occur to you that the whole reason slot synthesis was taxed for sorcerers was because being "half way there" (there being spell points) was balanced and that being "all the way there" wasn't? I mean, clearly WotC fiddled with spell points (since it's offered as an alternative) and only gave sorcerers a taxed version because implementing a non-taxed version of spell points is grotesquely overpowered.

Also, why are we clinging to warlocks having only two spell slots? It's terrible game design for player satisfaction; it's like re-implementing favored enemy over and over and over when the ability at its core involves 0 player agency and instead requires the DM to prop up the right enemies for the ranger to fight. Having 2 maxed out spell slots per short rest can get real dicey if you lose concentration. Are we to keep Warlocks in 2-spell limit limbo because "that's just the way it's always been."

I'm willing to throw warlocks a bone because thus far, they feel wretched to play when next to a full caster.

"What's that? A fight going longer than 7 rounds? And you lost concentration on one of your spells!? Well I guess you'll be spamming Eldritch Blast the rest of the fight! HAHAHAHA Are you engaged yet!?"

NTY

There are ways to boost warlock action in combat. Take War Caster and/or Resilient Con if needed like any spellcaster. Repelling Blast makes your Eldritch Blast more interesting to use. Misty Visions lets your imagination run wild. Silent Image a wall. Unless your DM metagame nerfs PC illusions into uselessness the bad guys do not automatically know it's an illusion nor test to see if it is one.

Some people are happy being magical archers in combat and use the bulk of their warlock shtick out of combat in exploration and/or socializing.

[TheUser]

There are ways to boost warlock action in combat. Take War Caster and/or Resilient Con if needed like any spellcaster. Repelling Blast makes your Eldritch Blast more interesting to use. Misty Visions lets your imagination run wild. Silent Image a wall. Unless your DM metagame nerfs PC illusions into uselessness the bad guys do not automatically know it's an illusion nor test to see if it is one.

Some people are happy being magical archers in combat and use the bulk of their warlock shtick out of combat in exploration and/or socializing.

Would you accept that they would be -more- happy as a magical archer with a more diverse set of spell options that are not precluded by only 2 spell slots per combat?

Does spell points all of a sudden amount to too many options for these hypothetical "magical archer" players?

Sure, you have Misty Visions, but it still has verbal and somatic components; you can cast Silent Image at will, and while onlookers won't know for certain it's an illusion, they will know you have cast a spell. Testing if it's an illusion after seeing a wall sprout up from nowhere isn't out of the question (or at least compelling an investigation check). So it's hardly an in-combat option imho.

Additionally, the presence of repelling blast is still casting Eldritch Blast over and over again.

I really don't understand this push back over giving spell points to Warlocks; you can still play it as a two-shot shotgun if that's what you're hung up on, but now players who view it as an overwhelming hindrance have a reason to play the class.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I didn't mention it because I can hardly see myself use my concentration on Darkness for most combats. I would rather cast something like Careful Hypnotic Pattern, or Twinned Greater Invisibility, etc.
The only way I can see myself casting that spell, even if I can see through it, is on either long adventuring days where I seriously need to conserve my spell slots, or when I'm playing a gish, but then I would probably pick Divine Soul for a gish anyway.
Plus, if you and your party don't coordinate well around it, or haven't built for using Darkness in combat, it can even hamper your team.

Darkness is smaller more versatile(can be easily moved, can be stationery and can be attached to an enemy or ally) fog cloud. And let's be honest fog could is a great spell and can be used almost every fight.
The fact you can cast it for 2 sorcery points instead of a level 2 slot make it better.

I prefer to convert most of my spells to the max spell level available and use it to nove when needed.
Cheap darkness help save slots to use the nova.

Darkness is especially good VS caster and creatures with gase attacks(basilisk and Medusa).
It is also good to level the playing field (like when fighting VS enemies with easy advantage like pack tactics).

Like one of the people in my group prove almost every fight, all spells can hamper your team(he always get 0 in tactics, it is funny).

I usually rank spells and ability based on the assumption it is not a solo game. If your party can coordinate with each other I will question your party ability to talk(or write) with eachother(I am talking about basic coordination, nothing more).

There is a reason why telepathic bound is a must have spells.

[MaxWilson]

Synergizing with AoA is considerably outside of the scope of the analysis. The point what looking at it without considering the fact you have nearly double the number of spells other sorcerers have from a much larger list.

It's a decent ability. Not great, but not useless.

[Mitchellnotes]

I haven't read the whole discussion, but just wanted to pop in and say that I think comparing subclass abilities doesn't matter a whole lot to be honest. The power of the sorceror really comes from the ability to apply metamagic. Part of why divine sorcerer is usually considered so powerful is due to being able to apply metamagic to typically cleric only spells. Shadow sorc gets a bonus metamagic in the shadow hound. What kept the sorc in check power wise really was the spell limitations. Divine soul may have some really nifty tricks due to applying metamagic to a few additional spells, but they still inly have the same max spells.

Not only do the new classes provide for additional options for metamagic, but they can then swap those spells out (albeit with some limitations) to provide for much broader, targeted application of metamagic. That is where the power is with the subclasses. Everything else is just gravy.

Honestly, i dont mind this. I wish every subclass gave the associated spells (or at least one per spell level), especially the warlock, as it makes the subclass choice a little more flavorfull and diversifies spell options. Whats the point of having 300+ spells if people tend to choose the same 50ish?

[RSP]

With Sorc, particularly, it’s difficult to compare subclasses: the class as a whole is about specializing, and the subclasses fall in line with that. So, comparing DS to Draconic, is like comparing clerics and fighters: they’re designed to do different things.

If you want to play a blaster, play draconic. If you want Cleric spells, play DS.

The new subclasses are probably “better” than the old ones, if just comparing abilities on GitP forums, but, if you’re looking at how you want to play, each can excel in certain styles.

I’ll add, I think I value the Cleric list far more than the OP. The added spells known, the selection is very good, but that Cleric list has some very nice spells. The DS also has access to new 6+ level spells, which the new subclasses don’t (though, obviously, they have the ability to select more 6+ Sorc spells with the usual choices taken with the 10 additional subclass spells). Though, my table tends to spend a lot of time in higher tiers of play, so maybe that’s a factor in my thinking.

I’d also put Favored by the Gods as better than negating Adv/Disadvantage: pre-Roll vs post roll use really favors post roll: you’ll end up “wasting” the former about half the time, while that won’t be true for the vast majority of FbtG uses.

[KorvinStarmast]

"What's that? A fight going longer than 7 rounds? And you lost concentration on one of your spells!? Well I guess you'll be spamming Eldritch Blast the rest of the fight! HAHAHAHA Are you engaged yet!?"
You ever play a warlock? I enjoy mine.
Pushing stuff around the battlefield regardless of its size is (for me) fun. Push a frost giant off of the edge of a 250' cliff using 3 EBs that all hit ... priceless. The party had already done some damage, and as it worked out, when the Druid flew down there after the battle to see if the frost giant was still there, he confirmed that it was dead.

Anyway, I found warlock to be fun and I did pay attention to when to use spells and when to use other powers. I also was pretty alert to short rests; but since our Fighter recovers action surge and second wind on an SR, and the monk, ki, they were also fans.

Thanks to a friend trying something out, I discovered the fun of pulling stuff toward me, off of their flying mounts, with Arms of Hadar. Also fun; our martial characters appreciated me getting stuff to come back to us ...

Back to sorcerers: I wish our campaign with the shadow sorcerer was still going. I love my doggy.

if I try sorcerer again, I am very tempted by Aberrant mind. The concept looks decent. But I'll have to see what it looks like in play.

[Pex]

Would you accept that they would be -more- happy as a magical archer with a more diverse set of spell options that are not precluded by only 2 spell slots per combat?

Does spell points all of a sudden amount to too many options for these hypothetical "magical archer" players?

Sure, you have Misty Visions, but it still has verbal and somatic components; you can cast Silent Image at will, and while onlookers won't know for certain it's an illusion, they will know you have cast a spell. Testing if it's an illusion after seeing a wall sprout up from nowhere isn't out of the question (or at least compelling an investigation check). So it's hardly an in-combat option imho.

Additionally, the presence of repelling blast is still casting Eldritch Blast over and over again.

I really don't understand this push back over giving spell points to Warlocks; you can still play it as a two-shot shotgun if that's what you're hung up on, but now players who view it as an overwhelming hindrance have a reason to play the class.

That's nerfing illusions to uselessness. If a wizard casts Wall of Stone do the bad guys check to see if it's an illusion first because it was obvious the wizard cast a spell and it came out of nowhere, or do they readily accept it's a real wall and act accordingly?

The point of Repelling Blast is to make Eldritch Blast fun to use that you want to cast it.

I don't object to warlocks using spellpoints. I object to the notion warlocks are terrible as is.

[Asmerv]

Would you accept that they would be -more- happy as a magical archer with a more diverse set of spell options that are not precluded by only 2 spell slots per combat?

Does spell points all of a sudden amount to too many options for these hypothetical "magical archer" players?

Sure, you have Misty Visions, but it still has verbal and somatic components; you can cast Silent Image at will, and while onlookers won't know for certain it's an illusion, they will know you have cast a spell. Testing if it's an illusion after seeing a wall sprout up from nowhere isn't out of the question (or at least compelling an investigation check). So it's hardly an in-combat option imho.

Additionally, the presence of repelling blast is still casting Eldritch Blast over and over again.

I really don't understand this push back over giving spell points to Warlocks; you can still play it as a two-shot shotgun if that's what you're hung up on, but now players who view it as an overwhelming hindrance have a reason to play the class.

The dissatisfaction comes from expecting a Warlock to play more similarly to other casters, and your solution is to make Warlock play more similarly to other casters. There's nothing wrong with that if that's what you want.

All I'm saying is I think the ideal solution would be to have Warlock offer up something unique and powerful instead, so that just having two spells slots still feel awesome. Instead of making your shotgun behave more like a wizard's rifle, make it be a very satisfying shotgun to use when something is actually in range.

For example, why doesn't Hunger of Hadar scale and scale hard? It's a very thematic spells for many Warlocks, but does not interact with their unique way of casting at all. What if it produced a truly devastating effect if cast at 5th level, something the wizard and the sorcerer couldn't do? Instead, your 5th level spells are pretty much the same as the wizards, or worse because you upcast Fireball to 5th instead.

[MaxWilson]

For example, why doesn't Hunger of Hadar scale and scale hard? It's a very thematic spells for many Warlocks, but does not interact with their unique way of casting at all. What if it produced a truly devastating effect if cast at 5th level, something the wizard and the sorcerer couldn't do? Instead, your 5th level spells are pretty much the same as the wizards, or worse because you upcast Fireball to 5th instead.

It's easier to give warlocks spell points than to rewrite a hundred or so spells to support better upcasting. One takes a couple of lines in the house rules doc, the other would be... dozens of pages I guess.

[Asisreo1]

"What's that? A fight going longer than 7 rounds? And you lost concentration on one of your spells!? Well I guess you'll be spamming Eldritch Blast the rest of the fight! HAHAHAHA Are you engaged yet!?"

NTY
What's the wizard doing? I don't know how impactful 1st-level spells can be during a fight from 5th level up.

Somehow casting magic missile for a guaranteed 10.5 damage for limited resources isn't as impressive as casting a 19 damage eldritch blast that expends nothing. Even needing a roll of 10 or higher makes Eldritch Blast roughly equivalent. This also doesn't consider the pact boons that a warlock might have.

Its true that if you don't like a more repetitive action set then Warlocks aren't quite as diverse, but not everyone's lining up for too many options they have to wade through in every fight.

[Gtdead]

It's easier to give warlocks spell points than to rewrite a hundred or so spells to support better upcasting. One takes a couple of lines in the house rules doc, the other would be... dozens of pages I guess.

Well, it's also easy to make an optional rule where any damage dealing spell that doesn't have scaling in it's description gains an a single additional die of damage per level upcasted. It doesn't really upset the balance so much, compared to adding a feature that completely alters the basic gameplay of the class and addresses it's main weakness (forced to upcast low level spells with poor or no scaling).

It's not like the majority of scalable spells are any better than that. There are only a few of them that follow different patterns and it's by necessity because they are things like shadowblade and spiritual weapon.

[Kane0]

It's easier to give warlocks spell points than to rewrite a hundred or so spells to support better upcasting. One takes a couple of lines in the house rules doc, the other would be... dozens of pages I guess.

On the other side of that coin though, fixing up the spells makes them more desirable for everyone so could be effort well spent.

[stoutstien]

It's easier to give warlocks spell points than to rewrite a hundred or so spells to support better upcasting. One takes a couple of lines in the house rules doc, the other would be... dozens of pages I guess.

To be fair HoH not scaling seems like a huge over being a warlock exclusive spell.

[Asmerv]

It's easier to give warlocks spell points than to rewrite a hundred or so spells to support better upcasting. One takes a couple of lines in the house rules doc, the other would be... dozens of pages I guess.

No arguments here on ease of implementation. I feel the same way in the end on adding an extended spell list to Sorcerers - it's not the ideal solution but it's a much more pragmatic one.

Still, I hope that somehow I can make Warlock do the whole 'I tore a hole in the fabric of reality through this terrible unspeakable power bestowed on me by an incomprehensible sanity-shattering entity' and have it amount to more than a mechanical tickle and not 'I did what the wizard did, except I dont have the option to do it again'

I know I'm dreaming but eh.

[MaxWilson]

Well, it's also easy to make an optional rule where any damage dealing spell that doesn't have scaling in it's description gains an a single additional die of damage per level upcasted. It doesn't really upset the balance so much, compared to adding a feature that completely alters the basic gameplay of the class and addresses it's main weakness (forced to upcast low level spells with poor or no scaling).

It's not like the majority of scalable spells are any better than that. There are only a few of them that follow different patterns and it's by necessity because they are things like shadowblade and spiritual weapon.

That's precisely why it would be so much work to write the spells--there are very few spells which actually have good scaling, so warlocks today wind up either casting 5th level spells and the rare lower-level spells that upcast well (leaving them with a very narrow selection) or feeling bad about "wasting" their power and falling behind everyone who isn't forced to upcast. That's precisely the problem which spell slots points address for warlocks, and it feels good.

N.b. Fireball isn't a spell that upcasts well--casting a 10d6 Fireball at 5th level still feels bad. Most of the Tasha's spells upcast well though, and so does Summon Greater Demon, and IMO so do Hold Person and Command (Fiendlock only), although Hold Person is generally muuuch better for bad guys than for PCs.

[ZRN]

With Sorc, particularly, it’s difficult to compare subclasses: the class as a whole is about specializing, and the subclasses fall in line with that. So, comparing DS to Draconic, is like comparing clerics and fighters: they’re designed to do different things.

If you want to play a blaster, play draconic. If you want Cleric spells, play DS.

The new subclasses are probably “better” than the old ones, if just comparing abilities on GitP forums, but, if you’re looking at how you want to play, each can excel in certain styles.


I think the issue is that the old sorcerer subclass bonuses were mostly not very useful (except the DS spell list), while the new ones address one of the biggest overall weaknesses of the class - so even if you kind of want to play, say, a storm sorcerer, it's hard not to think, "I could just play an Aberrant Mind and take a couple lightning spells and ALSO have a bunch of other cool spells at my disposal." You miss out on a few really mediocre abilities and instead get double the spells from levels 1-10? Quite tempting!

[Asmerv]

That's precisely why it would be so much work to write the spells--there are very few spells which actually have good scaling, so warlocks today wind up either casting 5th level spells and the rare lower-level spells that upcast well (leaving them with a very narrow selection) or feeling bad about "wasting" their power and falling behind everyone who isn't forced to upcast. That's precisely the problem which spell slots address for warlocks, and it feels good.

N.b. Fireball isn't a spell that upcasts well--casting a 10d6 Fireball at 5th level still feels bad. Most of the Tasha's spells upcast well though, and so does Summon Greater Demon, and IMO so do Hold Person and Command (Fiendlock only), although Hold Person is generally muuuch better for bad guys than for PCs.

This is exactly it. Armor of Agathys scales in cool, powerful way that feels quadratically powerful as opposed to linear, for example. All Warlock spells should ideally do the same, because you don't have the option to cast it at its appropriate level to get the most bang for buck (unless you are using spell points as mentioned).

I'd prefer the former but I'd take the latter over nothing any day.

[MrCharlie]

I've seen comments saying that part of the balance of the new subclasses is that they have lesser features than the old subclasses in exchange for the bonus spell list. Today I would like to put that argument to the test by comparing Clockwork Soul to the rest of the Sorcerer subclasses (without taking into account the 14th and 18th level features which most players will never get).
Clockwork Soul has Clockwork Magic, Restore Balance, and Bastion of Law. These are 3 features, none of which is a ribbon, and one of them is crazy good (Clockwork Magic). However, I will not compare any of the features to Clockwork Magic because it would obviously be better than all of them. I will only compare features with Restore Balance and Bastion of Law and mention Clockwork Magic when appropriate to judge a feature's usefulness.

Draconic Sorcerer
Dragon Ancestor - Mostly a ribbon. Influences Elemental Affinity later.
Draconic Resilience - Typically a great feature, but then you notice Clockwork Soul can get Mage Armor and Shield on his spell list for free (sure, you have to waste a 1st level slot to cast Mage Armor, but it's just a 1st level), the natural armor you get from this feature isn't looking that great anymore, when it used to be considered fantastic partly for saving you a single spell known. That leaves us with the +1 HP per level, which is good for a squishy class, but removing disadvantage/advantage from saving throws 2-6 times a day is better.
Elemental Affinity - Big blasty spells! This is a fantastic feature for blasters, which I would say is definitely better than Bastion of Law.

Summary:
1 ribbon, 1 worse, 1 better.

Wild Magic Sorcerer
Wild Magic Surge - A 1/20 chance for a Wild Surge upon casting a spell is basically a ribbon.
Tides of Chaos - Ah, Tides of Chaos. If your DM is favorable towards you and triggers the surge often, or even all the time, this feature is fantastic. If he doesn't at all, this feature sucks. Weird feature to rate, to be honest.
Bend Luck - A decent feature, if somewhat expensive. 1d4 reduction from saving throws is great, of course, but the price is quite high. I would be hard-pressed to say that this is definitely better than Bastion of Law, a similarly expensive option, but one that uniquely lets you nova combat-preperation. For the sake of being extra fair and avoiding arguments, let's say that this is better than Bastion of Law.

Summary:
1 ribbon, 1 schrodinger's feature, 1 better.

Storm Sorcerer
Wind Speaker - Ribbon.
Tempestuous Magic - 10 feet of movement as a bonus action upon casting a leveled spell (with no AoO) is definitely worse than Restore Balance in my mind.
Heart of the Storm - A mediocre close-range AoE is not a good feature for a Sorcerer and is definitely not as good as Bastion of Law.

Summary:
1 ribbon, 2 worse.

Shadow Sorcerer
Eyes of the Dark - Hey, that's pretty good. The Darkvision is great, but the free Darkness doesn't do much for us now that we can get 10 spells known as Clockwork Soul.
Strength of the Grave - OK feature. Might save you from death, but probably won't if you're facing high CR enemies with big hits. Restore Balance is better in my opinion.
Hound of Ill Omen - Free metamagic, and it's an improved Heighten. Better than Bastion of Law for sure.

Summary:
1 not-a-ribbon-but-not-as-good-as-before, 1 worse, 1 better

Divine Soul Sorcerer[/U
Divine Magic - Oh boy. OK, so this one is a little tricky, but only because I think a lot of people overestimate how good opening a new spell list for a class with 15 spells known is. Does it open up a new and unique playstyle for Sorcerers? Definitely! Does it make this subclass objectively better than the rest? Definitely not. It also gives a single spell known, which is paltry in comparison to what Clockwork Magic gives us.
Favored by the Gods - Good, but I rate this to be equivalent to Restore Balance if not worse.
Empowered Healing - OK. The 5 feet limitation is quite harsh, and it also only works on a single ally, so you can't empower mass cure wounds and the like. Bastion of Law is at least equivalent if not outright better. To be extra fair, let's say equivalent.

Summary:
1 not-a-ribbon-but-not-incredible-either, 1 worse, 1 equivalent

[U]Conclusion:
The only subclasses with somewhat better features (when not comparing to Clockwork Magic) are Shadow and Divine Soul Draconic, and even then: it's arguable. Even if you concede that they are better, it would only be by a small margin in my opinion. Thus, I believe the argument that the old subclasses have better features, even when not comparing them to a bonus spell list, does not hold water.
Some features are significantly better at higher levels than you're taking into account, though. Also, clockworks low level features are pretty bad-bastion of law is kinduve awful, it's not a very efficient use of points except maybe as a 1 sorcery point expense. The high level features are actually quite good-Trace of order, among other things, lets you auto-make most concentration saves (A good sorcerer will be reaching that point anyway for DC 10, but DC 20 is 40 points of trigger damage, which is actually fairly high-most attacks don't get higher than that). Clockwork Cavalcade is probably on the level of an 8th level spell, being worse than mass heal but still doing a good chunk of healing and acting as a mass dispel magic, which is basically a unique effect. Restore Balance in general is basically too rare to matter, as you really want to use it on a saving throw-not an attack roll-to be relevant power wise to other abilities.

Otherwise, to go through your analysis point by point-

Draconic overall has better features if you blast, and most arcane casters blast at least once in a day.

Wild Magic is so highly variable that there isn't really a way to analyze it, but if you made it proficiency times a day for tides of chaos and wild magic surge it's better than clockwork, and I think that proficiency bonus number of wild magic surges is as good a guestimate for low levels as anything. Bend luck is also much better than bastion of law.

Storms level 6 feature isn't actually bad, and has just enough range that you aren't sitting in melee all the time. Combined with bonus action disengage storm sorcerer is pretty solid, and scales better than draconic at high level. It's more or less a good comparison to draconic, but worse at low levels and better at high levels.

Shadows reaction ability is actually better than you are giving it credit for even at high level-a lot of high CR creatures deal their damage over multiple attacks, and each individual one might only be a 50-50 shot on the save (15 ish damage). Given that you can keep attempting it until you succeed, it actually does help. I rank it as worse than restore balance though, because being reduced to zero is hopefully a rare occasion, and not being reduced to 0 on this hit isn't always enough to save you. That said, at low level it's better than clockworks abilities.

Divine soul is much, much, much much better than you are ranking it on all aspects except empowered healing. To the degree that it remains competitive with clockwork without the extra spells. There are a few cleric spells that metmagic break into bits-clockwork gets one of them, Aid, but not Death Ward. At it's height, divine soul can cast an Xth level extended aid and extended death ward on the entire party, giving everyone something like 20-30 extra HP and 1 free recovery, at no cost.

You have to know exactly what tricks work and how to do them, but if you know which spells you can break from the cleric list it's very, very good. Favored by the gods is also better than restore balance when it works-2d4 to a save is pretty massive, and disadvantage on saves isn't that common. Further, you are likely to get several uses of favored by the gods as it recharges on short rest. You get more restore balance at high level, but its less likely to ever be used on saving throws, and favored by the gods only works when you need it.

End result, I rank favored by the gods as clearly better than restore balance at low level, until restore balance is significantly more common.

Empowered healing is actually trash because the good divine soul spells either don't heal or their amount of healing is irrelevant or not variable to dice. Heal is a decent divine soul spell because you can twin it but empowered healing does nothing, healing word is amazing but the dice are too low to be worth empowering, and every other spell that heals is either the same or not good on your class. Oh, or the 1/turn and 5 foot reach restraints means you can't effectively use it.

But in general, divine soul is a high level subclass, as most of the long rest shenanigan's that you can pull work best once you are in tier 3. It's just that clockworks features (other than spell list) are also high level features, so divine soul compares favorably.

And this is the real trick-clockworks features are great at high level, and its spell list is best at low level (although it's just amazing regardless). Combine the two, and clockwork (and aberrant) are generally always superior-unless you know enough about spells to know exactly which spells are ever worth casting at all levels, and even then 16 spells known isn't enough to hit the best spells in DnD watchlist, just graze it.

Although, as an aside, Restore Balance is actually extremely strong if you have a rogue in the party, because it lets them ignore disadvantage and still sneak attack (or at least should, RAW). This helps the Rogue attack the right person more than it helps them get sneak attack-there are usually enough targets to get sneak attack on someone, but certain targets should be prioritized and restore balance helps the rogue do that.

[Asisreo1]

That's precisely why it would be so much work to write the spells--there are very few spells which actually have good scaling, so warlocks today wind up either casting 5th level spells and the rare lower-level spells that upcast well (leaving them with a very narrow selection) or feeling bad about "wasting" their power and falling behind everyone who isn't forced to upcast. That's precisely the problem which spell slots address for warlocks, and it feels good.

N.b. Fireball isn't a spell that upcasts well--casting a 10d6 Fireball at 5th level still feels bad. Most of the Tasha's spells upcast well though, and so does Summon Greater Demon, and IMO so do Hold Person and Command (Fiendlock only), although Hold Person is generally muuuch better for bad guys than for PCs.
There's 2 points I would like to make in reference to the upcasting.

The first is that I believe some spells are meant to be forgotten (mechanically). Hunger of Hadar comes around at 5th level. It doesn't auto upcast until level 7+, which makes it harder to justify using a 4th-level slot on a 3rd-level spell for only emergencies.
So I believe the spell was meant to be forgotten somewhere in levels 7-8. For Goolocks, the obvious advancement would be to learn Evard's Black Tentacles in replacement to Hunger of Hadar. There are other good patron spells to grab as well. I think non-Upcasting spells are meant to be stepping stones for Warlocks rather than staples.

Secondly, most people don't give upcasted damage spells their dues. When a fireball increases by 1d6 damage per spell slot, their total expected damage raises by 4d6. So a 5th-level fireball does an additional 8d6 expected damage. Now, a Cone of Cold actually does still outpace it, although a Cone of Cold doesn't have the luxury of being usable more than twice a day. That's probably for the best. Having Fireball gives you the ability to use it at a lower level, Having Cone of Cold gives you higher damage at its strongest, and having both gives you better efficiency with your slot levels at the expense of spells known.

[MaxWilson]

Some features are significantly better at higher levels than you're taking into account, though. Also, clockworks low level features are pretty bad-bastion of law is kinduve awful, it's not a very efficient use of points except maybe as a 1 sorcery point expense.

It's not spell point-efficient, but the action economy and duration are terrific. It stacks with temp HP and Aid, and unlike Shield it works against crits and can be cast on others. For the price of a 3rd level spell you can add ~22 HP to someone in the party, until the next long rest, and they don't have to use it until they actually are in danger of going down (AFB but IIRC they can even save it until after they come back up from a Healing Word and are at ~1 HP, to keep them from going down again).

Like most nova effects, it's expensive, but it's a decent defensive nova for tough fights. Overall rating: decent, better than it looks at first.

[Gtdead]

That's precisely why it would be so much work to write the spells--there are very few spells which actually have good scaling, so warlocks today wind up either casting 5th level spells and the rare lower-level spells that upcast well (leaving them with a very narrow selection) or feeling bad about "wasting" their power and falling behind everyone who isn't forced to upcast. That's precisely the problem which spell slots address for warlocks, and it feels good.

N.b. Fireball isn't a spell that upcasts well--casting a 10d6 Fireball at 5th level still feels bad. Most of the Tasha's spells upcast well though, and so does Summon Greater Demon, and IMO so do Hold Person and Command (Fiendlock only), although Hold Person is generally muuuch better for bad guys than for PCs.

Are you suggesting a rebalancing of upcasted spells? I wasn't entertaining that idea at all. I'm aware of Warlock's problem with pact magic. Pretty much any spell that isn't persistent, like conjured weapons, spirit guardians and the like, scales horribly. The only spell that has some upcasting potential is actually scorching ray, and this comes with strings attached (fire damage). Also warlock loses out on Shadowblade due to poor interaction with his hex warrior/pact of the blade feature, doesn't have access to spirit guardians or some other good persistent AoE.

However I don't really see this as the main problem, because after all there are some good selections as far as the "kit" is concerned, even if there are some inefficiencies here and there.
Armor of Agathys
Synaptic Static
Shadow of Moil
Tasha's Summons
Banishment
Dimension Door
Wall of Fire (Celestial/Fiend)
Wall of Stone (Genie)
Evard's (GOO)
Banishing Smite (Hexblade)

Sadly it's really inefficient for the class to use spells like Misty Step or Shield but I think he can make do with these. Warlock isn't about versatility anyway. Of course that's not a good reason for having ****ty spells in the game but that can be said for any class really.

[samcifer]

Also, thanks to the new Eldritch Adept feat granting access to Devil's Sight, you no longer need to be a shadow sorc or mc 2 levels of warlock for the advantage in Darkness tactic. You can now do it using a feat and one of the two main draws (arguably) of playing a shadow sorc over a different mc are now effectively mute imo.

[Gignere]

What's the wizard doing? I don't know how impactful 1st-level spells can be during a fight from 5th level up.

Somehow casting magic missile for a guaranteed 10.5 damage for limited resources isn't as impressive as casting a 19 damage eldritch blast that expends nothing. Even needing a roll of 10 or higher makes Eldritch Blast roughly equivalent. This also doesn't consider the pact boons that a warlock might have.

Its true that if you don't like a more repetitive action set then Warlocks aren't quite as diverse, but not everyone's lining up for too many options they have to wade through in every fight.

I Tasha’d a Shadow Dragon to death. It failed the save while it was flying and fell over 500 feet.

[Snowbluff]

It's not spell point-efficient, but the action economy and duration are terrific. It stacks with temp HP and Aid, and unlike Shield it works against crits and can be cast on others. For the price of a 3rd level spell you can add ~22 HP to someone in the party, until the next long rest, and they don't have to use it until they actually are in danger of going down (AFB but IIRC they can even save it until after they come back up from a Healing Word and are at ~1 HP, to keep them from going down again).

Like most nova effects, it's expensive, but it's a decent defensive nova for tough fights. Overall rating: decent, better than it looks at first.


Also, thanks to the new Eldritch Adept feat granting access to Devil's Sight, you no longer need to be a shadow sorc or mc 2 levels of warlock for the advantage in Darkness tactic. You can now do it using a feat and one of the two main draws (arguably) of playing a shadow sorc over a different mc are now effectively mute imo.

Well, if you're spending a feat on that I would say that by the time you have a slot free you really shouldn't be spending it on a trick 4 spell levels old when there is a perfectly good Greater Invisibility right there. :smalltongue:

You could be taking inspiring leader instead and not wiping out what is in the best case scenario probably 1/4 of your daily spell points to give some HP.

[MaxWilson]

Are you suggesting a rebalancing of upcasted spells? I wasn't entertaining that idea at all. I'm aware of Warlock's problem with pact magic. Pretty much any spell that isn't persistent, like conjured weapons, spirit guardians and the like, scales horribly. The only spell that has some upcasting potential is actually scorching ray, and this comes with strings attached (fire damage). Also warlock loses out on Shadowblade due to poor interaction with his hex warrior/pact of the blade feature, doesn't have access to spirit guardians or some other good persistent AoE.

However I don't really see this as the main problem, because after all there are some good selections as far as the "kit" is concerned, even if there are some inefficiencies here and there.
Armor of Agathys
Synaptic Static
Shadow of Moil
Tasha's Summons
Banishment
Dimension Door
Wall of Fire (Celestial/Fiend)
Wall of Stone (Genie)
Evard's (GOO)
Banishing Smite (Hexblade)

Sadly it's really inefficient for the class to use spells like Misty Step or Shield but I think he can make do with these. Warlock isn't about versatility anyway. Of course that's not a good reason for having ****ty spells in the game but that can be said for any class really.

No, I'm trying to avoid rebalancing upcasted spells because it would be a massive change to 5E's design. I'm trying to make warlocks feel less crummy without rebalancing the spells.

...Let me rephrase that, becuase to be quite honest I've already done this in my own games long ago. I'm trying to explain to the forum why I like the results. Even if everyone hates the idea of warlock spell points it's not actually going to affect my game, and I have no intention of rebalancing all the spells.

Anyway, here's my thoughts on your list:

Armor of Agathys: okay. Fun to cast. Not actually that great as a 5th level spell but at least it doesn't feel like a waste.

Synaptic Static: sure, fine.

Shadow of Moil: feels a little bit bad to cast as a 5th level spell because it's really only 4th, even though it's good for 4th.

Tasha's Summons: not as good as Summon Greater Demon for upcasting. The 5th level breakpoint feels very awkward for these spells, in contrast to Conjure Animals where 5th level feels terrific. (But non-Vadalis warlocks don't have Conjure Animals.)

Banishment: worse than Wall of Force, arguably worse than Wall of Stone, but still upcasts well so not a complete waste. Relatively fine.

Dimension Door: feels bad, underpowered for 4th.

Wall of Fire (Celestial/Fiend): not absolutely terrible, but feels kind of bad to go from 5d8 for 4th to 6d8 for 5th. Diminishing returns there.

Wall of Stone (Genie): fine if you've got it and are in an appropriate terrain.

Evard's (GOO): feels a little bit bad to cast as a 5th level spell because it's really only 4th, even though it's good for 4th.

Banishing Smite (Hexblade): all right I guess, if you're into that kind of thing.

Obviously 4th level spells like Evard's Black Tentacles don't feel as bad to "waste" 5th level slots on as Mirror Image, Blink, Shield, etc. do. And I agree with your larger point, that there are enough good spells to make a warlock keep up with fighters/etc. even if we just look strictly at 5th level spells + Summon Greater Demon. I just don't like how it feels for warlock to have only a dozen-ish "good"-feeling spells to choose from.


You could be taking inspiring leader instead and not wiping out what is in the best case scenario probably 1/4 of your daily spell points to give some HP.

Sounds like you're confusing two different conversations. Clockwork Mages don't get the option of taking Inspiring Leader as their 6th level feature. And while Inspiring Leader is great, as I said before it doesn't stack with temp HP. That's more relevant than ever with Artillerists and especially Twilight Clerics in Tasha's.

[Gtdead]

No, I'm trying to avoid rebalancing upcasted spells because it would be a massive change to 5E's design. I'm trying to make warlocks feel less crummy without rebalancing the spells.

...Let me rephrase that, becuase to be quite honest I've already done this in my own games long ago. I'm trying to explain to the forum why I like the results. Even if everyone hates the idea of warlock spell points it's not actually going to affect my game, and I have no intention of rebalancing all the spells.


I see, I probably missed that you were trying to make a point about the warlock spell points system and took the quoted comment at face value, meaning the ease of creating a rule that will attempt to plug a hole compared to rebalancing something.

My general opinion is that spell points are a better system than spellslots anyway and I'd like to play all the casters with this variant rule. It's not a matter of power or versatility. I just think it's more intuitive. So by all means give the warlocks spell points, I'd be perfectly fine with it if I were to play in your game. If it fixes a problem, all the more reason to do it.

[MrCharlie]

It's not spell point-efficient, but the action economy and duration are terrific. It stacks with temp HP and Aid, and unlike Shield it works against crits and can be cast on others. For the price of a 3rd level spell you can add ~22 HP to someone in the party, until the next long rest, and they don't have to use it until they actually are in danger of going down (AFB but IIRC they can even save it until after they come back up from a Healing Word and are at ~1 HP, to keep them from going down again).

Like most nova effects, it's expensive, but it's a decent defensive nova for tough fights. Overall rating: decent, better than it looks at first.
See, my main concern with that is that I can usually nova pretty effectively with a sorcerer regardless by twinning spells or quickening them, it just costs a ton of points. Yes, the action economy is the best possible, but I value a sorcery point too much to spend them like that. I'll try it more though and see if I like it after more testing in light of your feedback.

As an aside; I've heard this proposed before and want your take, as you clearly know your way around warlocks-if warlocks didn't get Mystic Arcanum but instead had pact magic that scaled up to 9th level, how would this effect their balance?

[Asisreo1]

I Tasha’d a Shadow Dragon to death. It failed the save while it was flying and fell over 500 feet.
It must've been weakened or you've gotten really lucky since 20d6 isn't enough to kill most dragons short of wyrmlings.

It sounds like that was dangerous. I assume you were also flying since Tasha's doesn't have the range to effect anything 500ft away from it.

Actually, I have no idea how you could even find yourself in such a situation without alot of luck and alot of risk already.

[MrCharlie]

It must've been weakened or you've gotten really lucky since 20d6 isn't enough to kill most dragons short of wyrmlings.

It sounds like that was dangerous. I assume you were also flying since Tasha's doesn't have the range to effect anything 500ft away from it.

Actually, I have no idea how you could even find yourself in such a situation without alot of luck and alot of risk already.
A lot of DMs ignore the 20d6 damage cap on account of it being A. Stupid B. Unrealistic and C. There to spare players from gravity, which is a harsh mistress and should be respected.

Getting in range to actually use Tasha's like that is another issue entirely. I suppose something like invoke duplicity could pull it off with some prep work.

[RSP]

I think the issue is that the old sorcerer subclass bonuses were mostly not very useful (except the DS spell list), while the new ones address one of the biggest overall weaknesses of the class - so even if you kind of want to play, say, a storm sorcerer, it's hard not to think, "I could just play an Aberrant Mind and take a couple lightning spells and ALSO have a bunch of other cool spells at my disposal." You miss out on a few really mediocre abilities and instead get double the spells from levels 1-10? Quite tempting!

I meant mechanical specialization, though, if playing for the RP, and sticking to the descriptions, that could certainly be a reason to play a particular subclass.

Storm is going to be bad no matter what, I imagine, but Draconic will have the best abilities to blast, DS to buff/melee, Wild to be, well, wild and randomly powerful/ineffective.

Aberrant will probably be the best at out of combat, and illusions. It’s an interesting subclass as it gets free Subtle for the subclass spells; which makes taking Subtle feel weaker, but you’ll still want it for non-subclass spells.

Clockwork is probably a decent melee subclass, and both it and the Aberrant will be the most versatile. But I don’t really know how added versatility affects a class designed to specialize. It’s certainly a plus for those subclasses, but, as I said, I’m not sure it’s as straightforward a comparison as the OP suggests.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I meant mechanical specialization, though, if playing for the RP, and sticking to the descriptions, that could certainly be a reason to play a particular subclass.

Storm is going to be bad no matter what, I imagine, but Draconic will have the best abilities to blast, DS to buff/melee, Wild to be, well, wild and randomly powerful/ineffective.

Aberrant will probably be the best at out of combat, and illusions. It’s an interesting subclass as it gets free Subtle for the subclass spells; which makes taking Subtle feel weaker, but you’ll still want it for non-subclass spells.

Clockwork is probably a decent melee subclass, and both it and the Aberrant will be the most versatile. But I don’t really know how added versatility affects a class designed to specialize. It’s certainly a plus for those subclasses, but, as I said, I’m not sure it’s as straightforward a comparison as the OP suggests.
I'm totally on board with what you are saying here. Good generalization about improving versatility for specialists. It seems like there was an attempt to appease players who didn't like the sorcerer, and reading the threads on the subject I guess it worked to a point. Still not sure those people who didn't like sorcerer before will be happy about playing a character that feels even closer to a Wizard (but not as good). And for those of us who liked the specialist sorcerers the old ones are still probably more to our tastes.

[Gtdead]

At lvl 10, where Aberrant can get Synaptic Static in his list, he becomes a really mean blaster. Damage wise Dragon has the potential to do more, but I think Synaptic Statics and EBTs are more impactful spells and have better damage types (and of course the very valuable INT save). Considering that Aberrant can downcast them through converting slots, he is going to have a lot of firepower.

For a comparison, at lvl 10, Draconic will have 3 fireballs, 3 walls of fire and 2 synaptic statics.
Aberrant will have 9 synaptic statics or 11 evards autosubtled with his lvl 3-4-5 slots.

Through these 2 spells, you can cast one synaptic static and one evard's per combat for 5 encounters, which would probably take care of the adventuring day by themselves, and you still have autosubtled suggestions, telepathy and high cha for out of combat. This is a lot of control and the damage is more than fair. And all these in addition to the filthy cheap and twinnable Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Dissonant Whispers that he can use pretty much at will past lvl 6.

[Gignere]

It must've been weakened or you've gotten really lucky since 20d6 isn't enough to kill most dragons short of wyrmlings.

It sounds like that was dangerous. I assume you were also flying since Tasha's doesn't have the range to effect anything 500ft away from it.

Actually, I have no idea how you could even find yourself in such a situation without alot of luck and alot of risk already.

DM ruled it died of massive damage no point in artificially capping the damage. Yes it was a rather unique encounter in that it was trying to strafe us while we were going down a very deep pit. Also helps I was a diviner so I knew the result before I cast Tasha’s.

However, I have successfully used Tasha’s in less optimal situations and still disable monsters way after level 5.

Other level 1 spells that I’ve used to good effect besides shield and absorb elements are silent image and fog cloud well past level 5.

At higher levels controlling LoS can be the difference between a TPK encounter and one that becomes a cakewalk.

[MaxWilson]

I see, I probably missed that you were trying to make a point about the warlock spell points system and took the quoted comment at face value, meaning the ease of creating a rule that will attempt to plug a hole compared to rebalancing something.

My general opinion is that spell points are a better system than spellslots anyway and I'd like to play all the casters with this variant rule. It's not a matter of power or versatility. I just think it's more intuitive. So by all means give the warlocks spell points, I'd be perfectly fine with it if I were to play in your game. If it fixes a problem, all the more reason to do it.

Oh yeah, I totally agree--I find new players grok spell points really quickly, without some of the confusion that sometimes attends explaining spell slots. "Fireball costs 5 spell points." Simple and intuitive.

I do spell points for all classes including warlocks, but I especially like how it fixes the feel of warlock spells like Hex, Mirror Image, Suggestion, and Fly. (For clarity I'll just mention that the warlock Pact Magic (short rest) pool is separate from the Spellcasting pool, and you still have to be a 5th level warlock before you can spend warlock spell points on 3rd level spells of course, just like anyone else.)

I do not love how DMG spell points work for 6th+ level spells--it's kind of clunky--and I make alternative rules available for PCs who choose them up front, but DMG spell points are my default.


See, my main concern with that is that I can usually nova pretty effectively with a sorcerer regardless by twinning spells or quickening them, it just costs a ton of points. Yes, the action economy is the best possible, but (A) I value a sorcery point too much to spend them like that. I'll try it more though and see if I like it after more testing in light of your feedback.

As an aside; I've heard this proposed before and want your take, as you clearly know your way around warlocks-(B) if warlocks didn't get Mystic Arcanum but instead had pact magic that scaled up to 9th level, how would this effect their balance?

(A) Consider tossing 1 or 2 spell points at this feature (AFB and I always forget its name) if you're already upcasting Armor of Agathys. My sense is that a lot of big monsters deal ~25ish damage on a hit, but fewer deal ~32ish, so it could buy you an extra 25 cold damage from a second hit. Also, consider using it to avoid or reduce the difficulty of concentration checks. Again, it's not a great feature, so don't go nuts with it, but at least think about using it.

(B) Do you mean Pact Magic (spell slots that refresh on a short rest), or just regular spell 1/day slot-type casting? I can't even speculate on the ramifications of the former, but if you're just letting warlocks have spell slots that they can upcast with or use on their Mystic Arcana (so you could e.g. upcast your Mass Suggestion Mystic Arcanum with your 9th level slot), the impact on balance would be significant but IMO positive. It would prevent warlocks from having that weird nosedive in power post-11th level where all the other spellcasters are suddenly becoming amazing and warlocks plateau like fighters. Of course you could view that as good for warlocks or bad for fighters--some gaps would widen. Personally I like the results. I'm willing to find other ways to bring fighters up to par. E.g. I let Battlemasters temporarily recover maneuver dice in combat by foregoing attacks, gaining 1 die per attack sacrificed, which can only be used against foes that the Battlemaster is observing while giving up the attack. I also let fighters turn attacks into Parry maneuvers so that e.g. even a big brawny, non-Dexy fighter can still fend off assassins when attacked alone in his bedchamber.

BTW, I also like converting Mystic Arcana to invocations that simply state, "You know spell [XYZ]." In PHB RAW, a 17th level warlock normally has 7 Invocations and 4 Mystic Arcana--well, I like giving you 11 Invocations and letting you spend them on Mystic Arcana invocations if you want to. If you want to spend them all on enhancing Eldritch Blast instead, you can, and if so you don't have any way to use your 6th+ spell slots except upcasting your 1st-5th level spells. N.b. I say "slots" because DMG spell points still basically work like slots at 6th+ level, but they're technically still points, just in a different pool and on a long-rest schedule instead of short-rest. That 17th level warlock would have 9+10+11+13 = 43 long-rest spell points, which is just enough to purchase a 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell slot each day.

[Kylar0990]

Imagine a 7th level wizard and sorcerer. They both choose Polymorph and Dimension Door as their 2 4th-level spells.

Now, imagine through unfortunate circumstances, they must both use Dimension Door to get where they want to go. Good, but they immediately get into a fight. The wizard realizes the fight would be made easier with polymorph but doesn't have the slots to use it. The sorcerer, however, is able to convert their slots with a bonus action.

This means their higher level spell slots are "more accessible." Even without spell slot mutation, the act of not needing a short rest makes Font of Magic objectively better than Arcane Recovery for the purposes of recovering spell slots. Its also cheaper.

By the way, a 7th level sorcerer can actually create a 5th-level spell slot and upcast their spells. This is great for spells like Wall of Fire which actually increases the damage by 2d8 since each instance of damage can be expected to be applied (6d8 when Wall of Fire exists and 6d8 when the target attempts an escape or remains inside).

This trading out spell slots on the fly is a whole lot clunker than you're presenting here. Each slot dropped takes a bonus action and a slot added takes a bonus action so dropping 2 3rd level slots to get the 6 sorcery points to then make a 4th level slot takes 3 rounds to do. Doing it between combat works fine, but during combat takes multiple rounds.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

This trading out spell slots on the fly is a whole lot clunker than you're presenting here. Each slot dropped takes a bonus action and a slot added takes a bonus action so dropping 2 3rd level slots to get the 6 sorcery points to then make a 4th level slot takes 3 rounds to do. Doing it between combat works fine, but during combat takes multiple rounds.

Further, upcasting for blast spells is a really expensive way to go. Empower costs 1 SP and can be done with all of your big AoEs at mid levels and still leave lots of spells and SPs for other things. About the only way I could see upcasting an AoE being viable is if I knew I had 1 big encounter in the day, and even then it would depend on the circumstances.

[Kane0]

BTW, I also like converting Mystic Arcana to invocations that simply state, "You know spell [XYZ]." In PHB RAW, a 17th level warlock normally has 7 Invocations and 4 Mystic Arcana--well, I like giving you 11 Invocations and letting you spend them on Mystic Arcana invocations if you want to.

That’s very clever, i like that.

[samcifer]

I've tried to like the Aberrant Mind, but have found that with the limitation of Divination and Enchantment spells, it's hard for me to like that sub-class, esp. when you hit lvl 5 where the list of possible spells is rather disappointing (to me at least) and has spells that are rather situational.

Clockwork has much better spell options, imo, and the telepathy can be replaced by either the Message cantrip or the telepathy feat. Being able to subtly cast Tasha's Mind Whip, Hold Person, Dissonant Whispers or Tasha's Hideous Laughter for only spell pts. doesn't feel like enough reason to play the sub-class at low levels.

[TheUser]

I've tried to like the Aberrant Mind, but have found that with the limitation of Divination and Enchantment spells, it's hard for me to like that sub-class, esp. when you hit lvl 5 where the list of possible spells is rather disappointing (to me at least) and has spells that are rather situational.

Clockwork has much better spell options, imo, and the telepathy can be replaced by either the Message cantrip or the telepathy feat. Being able to subtly cast Tasha's Mind Whip, Hold Person, Dissonant Whispers or Tasha's Hideous Laughter for only spell pts. doesn't feel like enough reason to play the sub-class at low levels.

How about subtle modify memories? Geas? Dominate Person? The list is pretty extensive; subtle Enemies Abound, Suggestion, Calm Emotions. Even just Modify Memories cast subtly, alone makes them terrifying in the right hands.

[Kylar0990]

Further, upcasting for blast spells is a really expensive way to go. Empower costs 1 SP and can be done with all of your big AoEs at mid levels and still leave lots of spells and SPs for other things. About the only way I could see upcasting an AoE being viable is if I knew I had 1 big encounter in the day, and even then it would depend on the circumstances.

The scenario I responding to was talking about trading out lower level slots for a 4th level one so dimension door could be cast. While it is useful to have that option, but if you don't already Sorcery Points to use this way it would take 3 turns to do. Dropping 2 3rd level slots to upcast a damage spell at 4th level on the 3rd turn is foolish. A fireball with one more d6 damage could have just been 2 fireballs a turn earlier; 8d6 + 8d6 in 2 turns is a much better use of resources than 9d6 that took 3 turns to make happen.

[shipiaozi]

Dragon: worth about 2 feats
Wild: worth about 1 feat
Storm: worth about 1.5 feats
Shadow: worth about 1.5 feats
Divine Souls: worth about 4 feats

Aberrant Mind: worth about 1.5 feats
Clockwork Soul worth about 1 feat

Nevermind, divine soul is just too overpowered and other sorcerer just can't compete. Even without powerful twin cleric spells, divine soul's class features is still better than anyone else...

[Gtdead]

Dragon: worth about 2 feats
Wild: worth about 1 feat
Storm: worth about 1.5 feats
Shadow: worth about 1.5 feats
Divine Souls: worth about 4 feats

Aberrant Mind: worth about 1.5 feats
Clockwork Soul worth about 1 feat

Nevermind, divine soul is just too overpowered and other sorcerer just can't compete. Even without powerful twin cleric spells, divine soul's class features is still better than anyone else...

I'm interest to learn how you calculate these. I don't need a very comprehensive answer, just the general philosophy behind it.

[Mitchellnotes]

Dragon: worth about 2 feats
Wild: worth about 1 feat
Storm: worth about 1.5 feats
Shadow: worth about 1.5 feats
Divine Souls: worth about 4 feats

Aberrant Mind: worth about 1.5 feats
Clockwork Soul worth about 1 feat

Nevermind, divine soul is just too overpowered and other sorcerer just can't compete. Even without powerful twin cleric spells, divine soul's class features is still better than anyone else...

I appreciate this comparison, but think the values are way off. Clockwork and aberrant get 10 spells, including up to level 5 spells. Fey touched and shadow touched are a stat increase and 2 spells. Even at half a feat, thats still a minimum of 5 feats for both of those classes even ignoring that you get 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spells.

Lore bard is often considered one of, if not the, strongest bard subclass in part because of their ability to poach 2 additional spells. These subclasses get 10, with some limitations. However, the base lists are already strong, and there are lots of staples even among the schools listed to make it worth it.

The clockwork souls advantage/disadvantage engine and aberrant souls subtle spell/strong use of sp to cast spells are strongfeaturez themselves.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm interest to learn how you calculate these. The most likely scheme was pulling those numbers out of somewhere dark ... I found Mitchellnotes response to make sense based on my first review of the two new sorcerers.

[shipiaozi]

I'm interest to learn how you calculate these. I don't need a very comprehensive answer, just the general philosophy behind it.

I haven't calculated the value of extra spells, but even if I do, they should worth no more than 0.5 feat.

Fey-touched/shadow touched are bad feats, and their major benefits of extra spells are "extra spell slots.", not "extra spell known".

Lore bard is great because he could get "class ability spell"(Find Familiar, Find Greater Steed), "extremely overpowered spell"(summon animal, Gift of Alacrity, Healing Spirit) or spells that uses bard's useless reaction(Counterspell), not some random, weak spells. Those extra spell known should be compared with Ritual Caster, and in general not very useful.

[shipiaozi]

I'm interest to learn how you calculate these. I don't need a very comprehensive answer, just the general philosophy behind it.

1. Define a simple "base feat", personally I use Str+2(assume belt is banned). In 5e most feats are weaker than Str+2 so they worth less than 1 feat("base feat").

2. When you see certain class feature, ask yourself "Does I want to let it replace a base feat, what about 0.5 or 2?" For example favored by gods is very similar to lucky, worth about 1 feat.

[bendking]

For example favored by gods is very similar to lucky, worth about 1 feat.

And how exactly did you get to Divine Soul being worth 4 features according to this logic?


I haven't calculated the value of extra spells, but even if I do, they should worth no more than 0.5 feat.
Bruh.

[RSP]

1. Define a simple "base feat", personally I use Str+2(assume belt is banned). In 5e most feats are weaker than Str+2 so they worth less than 1 feat("base feat").

2. When you see certain class feature, ask yourself "Does I want to let it replace a base feat, what about 0.5 or 2?" For example favored by gods is very similar to lucky, worth about 1 feat.


And how exactly did you get to Divine Soul being worth 4 features according to this logic?

It’s interesting. I’d say DS level 14 is at least a feat (Conc-less perma-flight). I don’t know if FbtG is equal to Lucky; in someways it’s better, someways worse. Not sold on this, but initially I’d say Lucky is a little better, unless you’re guaranteed 2+ SRs. As Lucky is generally considered one of the better Feats, maybe FbtG is about equal to a generic Feat, even if not quite as good as Lucky.

Level 18, a really good 1x/day heal, but not quite a Feat. Same with level 6 - not quite a Feat. Maybe combine those two and call it a Feat.

So that’s 3 Feats before factoring in whatever you want to equal access to the Cleric list and an added spell known. I’m thinking at least 2 Feats for that: if you gave the option of getting the Cleric list added to the Wizard list at the cost of an ASI/Feat, I think any Wizard jumps at that with no-questions asked. I don’t think most would do it for 3 ASIs though. So I’m resting at about 2 Feats, though willing to hear arguments either way.

That, by my quick count, is ~5 “Feats” for DS, give or take a Feat.

Not sure I’m familiar enough with the other subclasses to rate them, other than Wild, which is so DM/table dependent it’s not really rate-able.

Just my 2 cents, though.

[Mitchellnotes]

I haven't calculated the value of extra spells, but even if I do, they should worth no more than 0.5 feat.

Fey-touched/shadow touched are bad feats, and their major benefits of extra spells are "extra spell slots.", not "extra spell known".

Lore bard is great because he could get "class ability spell"(Find Familiar, Find Greater Steed), "extremely overpowered spell"(summon animal, Gift of Alacrity, Healing Spirit) or spells that uses bard's useless reaction(Counterspell), not some random, weak spells. Those extra spell known should be compared with Ritual Caster, and in general not very useful.

Don't forget that you can replace the bonus spells. Esp with clockwork, if you can't find good trans/abj spells you arent teying. Shield and absorb elements alone are typically spell slot taxes, but adding polymorph, counterspell, etc? No brainer.

In looking at aberrant soul, the wiz enchanter gets to twin enchantment spells at 14th level. A sorc can do it at level 2, and you get access to any of the enchantment spells a wizard would from spell levels 1-5.

I would imagine the draw of a sorceror over a wizard is the metamagic. The new subclasses break the limitations of this in 2 ways. The first by expanding the # of spells known, and the 2nd by giving choices off the traditional sorc list.

Comparing other features, quite honestly, is a red herring. More spells and more choices combined with metamagic is very, very strong.

That isnt to say there isnt reason to play the other subclasses, bc there certainly is. But the increased vesatility makes the new subclasses very strong options, and i would argue that they are the strongest picks (with a nod to divine soul as being up there as well depending upon how you make use of the cleric choices)

[RSP]

In looking at aberrant soul, the wiz enchanter gets to twin enchantment spells at 14th level. A sorc can do it at level 2, and you get access to any of the enchantment spells a wizard would from spell levels 1-5.


One issue that hasn’t gotten enough attention, at least as I’ve seen it, is the SP casting/free Subtle is only for their subclass spells. It’s a nice feature, however, I imagine anyone playing an Aberrant Sorc is still going to want Subtle for their other spells.

Further, due to the SP casting feature, you’ll want your Subclass spells to be the ones you cast most often, so that will, perhaps, limit choices. For instance, even though it’s on the Sorc list already, you may take Hold Person and Suggestion as your 2nd level subclass spells.

This may make the subclass more “you get 10 extra spells that aren’t your first 15 choices” as opposed to “you get 10 spells from the Warlock/Wizard list”. This is similar to how the BM fighter is impacted by their later maneuver selections: they’ve already selected the best ones, so adding more is fine, but not nearly as good as it seems.

Clockwork, I don’t believe, will run into this issue, but it does affect Aberrant in terms of how realistic the two features interact: do you take spells not normally on your list; or do you take spells to optimize how often you can cast them and do so without components?

It’s still a great feature, even if it plays out to just getting 10 extra Sorc spells known, but it is restricted in this way, though others may feel that’s not a big impact.

[Kireban]

In looking at aberrant soul, the wiz enchanter gets to twin enchantment spells at 14th level. A sorc can do it at level 2, and you get access to any of the enchantment spells a wizard would from spell levels 1-5.


Enchanters get to twin enchantment spells at level 10. And they get to do it for free unlike the sorcerers who have to spend resources according to the spell's level.

[samcifer]

I just had an issue within the last month on being torn between the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul and ultimately went with CS for the better (to me, at least) spell list you can access in Abjurtion and Transmutation. Divination and Enchantment seem much less appealing to my damage-focused playstyle and swapping the given sub-class spells was much more satisfying as I could take more desirable spells like Absorb Elements, Shield, Spider Climb and Erupting Earth whereas the third (spell level spells for Div and Ench. were much less appealing. I'd rather be able to subtly cast ANY spell and not just the sub--class ones and If I really wanted telepathy, eEssage or the Telepath feat could grant me that. (probably repeating myself on all of that, but still...)

At this point I wonder how they'll divide the other four spell schools on future subclasses. Will it be Conjuration/Illusion and Evocation/Necromancy, Conjuration/Necromancy and Evocation/Illusion, or will it be Conjuration/Evocation and Illusion/Necromancy?

[Mitchellnotes]

Enchanters get to twin enchantment spells at level 10. And they get to do it for free unlike the sorcerers who have to spend resources according to the spell's level.

Ah! good catch, i was remembering that wrong. Still though, it's a strong feature that even if it isn't always 100% free is a strong addition for an already strong subclass in aberrant soul.

Additionally, I know that the subtle cast of the list spells costs SP, but remember that the SP return on investment for this feature is already strong as it gets better value compared to other sorcs burning SP for slots. Not only do they get the subtle addition, but they get to cast spells using 1-2 less SP (depending on the spell level). This also gives them additional fuel throughout the adventuring day.

Compare this to shadow sorcs, another subclass that is typically viewed as strong. They get to cast darkness for a 1:1 SP/Slot cost (same as aberrant) which they can see through, and they get a good version of heightened spell with the dog (which also costs SP to use). Comparatively, the aberrant sorcerer still seems strong in this comparison, and clockwork has an arguably even better spell list to choose from.

Again, i'm not saying that there isn't a reason to play other subclasses (there certainly is!), I'm just making the argument here that one should not undervalue the benefit of having 10 extra spells known on a sorcerer. It is a huge upgrade in versatility on a class that is strong but typically lacks versatility, which makes it a strong subclass choice.

I'd compare it to the new genie pact warlock having the opportunity to get wish or limited wish. on a chassis that has some limitations, this added versatility is huge at the point you get access to those abilities.

[MaxWilson]

I just had an issue within the last month on being torn between the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul and ultimately went with CS for the better (to me, at least) spell list you can access in Abjurtion and Transmutation. Divination and Enchantment seem much less appealing to my damage-focused playstyle and swapping the given sub-class spells was much more satisfying as I could take more desirable spells like Absorb Elements, Shield, Spider Climb and Erupting Earth whereas the third (spell level spells for Div and Ench. were much less appealing. (A) I'd rather be able to subtly cast ANY spell and not just the sub--class ones[/B] and If I really wanted telepathy, eEssage or the Telepath feat could grant me that. (probably repeating myself on all of that, but still...)

At this point I wonder how they'll divide the other four spell schools on future subclasses. (B) Will it be Conjuration/Illusion and Evocation/Necromancy, Conjuration/Necromancy and Evocation/Illusion, or will it be Conjuration/Evocation and Illusion/Necromancy?

(A) Do note that the Aberrant Mind gets better subtle casting. E.g. if a normal sorcerer casts Subtle Detect Thoughts, he still needs to take out a copper piece and manipulate it with a free hand during casting. (Technically by strict RAW an arcane focus will work too because the spell text doesn't say "a copper piece worth 1 cp", but come on, it's a copper piece. It has a value.) Because the spell still has components, it's clearly detectable.

An Aberrant Mind casting Detect Thoughts has no components, and may or may not be detectable (DM ruling, possibly situation-dependent). But he definitely is sneakier, and doesn't need a free hand.

I think your instinct to go for Clockwork Soul was correct. Aberrant Mind is sort of for people who want to mess around with NPCs' heads between/outside of combat, as opposed to being primarily a combat mage.

(B) Historically, Illusion and Necromancy have been opposed schools (e.g. Necromancers in AD&D can't cast Illusion spells, or Enchantment spells actually IIRC), so one might hope that they wouldn't pair Illusion/Necromancy. On the other hand, so are Abjuration and Alteration ("Transmutation" in 5E) opposed schools, and they went ahead and paired those, so who knows.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/iu6hi.jpg

[Mitchellnotes]

(A) Do note that the Aberrant Mind gets better subtle casting. E.g. if a normal sorcerer casts Subtle Detect Thoughts, he still needs to take out a copper piece and manipulate it with a free hand during casting. (Technically by strict RAW an arcane focus will work too because the spell text doesn't say "a copper piece worth 1 cp", but come on, it's a copper piece. It has a value.) Because the spell still has components, it's clearly detectable.

An Aberrant Mind casting Detect Thoughts has no components, and may or may not be detectable (DM ruling, possibly situation-dependent). But he definitely is sneakier, and doesn't need a free hand.

I think your instinct to go for Clockwork Soul was correct. Aberrant Mind is sort of for people who want to mess around with NPCs' heads between/outside of combat, as opposed to being primarily a combat mage.

(B) Historically, Illusion and Necromancy have been opposed schools (e.g. Necromancers in AD&D can't cast Illusion spells, or Enchantment spells actually IIRC), so one might hope that they wouldn't pair Illusion/Necromancy. On the other hand, so are Abjuration and Alteration ("Transmutation" in 5E) opposed schools, and they went ahead and paired those, so who knows.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/iu6hi.jpg

Honestly, this may sound odd given the historical opposites, but I could see evocation/conjuration paired with draconic sorcerers ue to the focus on elemental magic, and illusion/necromancy paired with shadow sorcs due to the "shadow theme", divine souls getting a mish/mash of clericy spells, and wild sorcs getting a WILDCARD!

[Kireban]

Ah! good catch, i was remembering that wrong. Still though, it's a strong feature that even if it isn't always 100% free is a strong addition for an already strong subclass in aberrant soul.

Additionally, I know that the subtle cast of the list spells costs SP, but remember that the SP return on investment for this feature is already strong as it gets better value compared to other sorcs burning SP for slots. Not only do they get the subtle addition, but they get to cast spells using 1-2 less SP (depending on the spell level). This also gives them additional fuel throughout the adventuring day.

Compare this to shadow sorcs, another subclass that is typically viewed as strong. They get to cast darkness for a 1:1 SP/Slot cost (same as aberrant) which they can see through, and they get a good version of heightened spell with the dog (which also costs SP to use). Comparatively, the aberrant sorcerer still seems strong in this comparison, and clockwork has an arguably even better spell list to choose from.

Again, i'm not saying that there isn't a reason to play other subclasses (there certainly is!), I'm just making the argument here that one should not undervalue the benefit of having 10 extra spells known on a sorcerer. It is a huge upgrade in versatility on a class that is strong but typically lacks versatility, which makes it a strong subclass choice.

I'd compare it to the new genie pact warlock having the opportunity to get wish or limited wish. on a chassis that has some limitations, this added versatility is huge at the point you get access to those abilities.

It depends on the way you want to play your character. Enchantment/divination is a very specific combination. You wont like making a bonus spells list from these schools when you are a blaster/buffer. The class features wont do much for you either. Clockwork will be good if you mostly care about the number of your spells.

[Kireban]

Honestly, this may sound odd given the historical opposites, but I could see evocation/conjuration paired with draconic sorcerers ue to the focus on elemental magic, and illusion/necromancy paired with shadow sorcs due to the "shadow theme", divine souls getting a mish/mash of clericy spells, and wild sorcs getting a WILDCARD!

a bonus list with the combination of Necromancy/Divination is going to be a really sad one

[Mitchellnotes]

a bonus list with the combination of Necromancy/Divination is going to be a really sad one

If i remember correctly, specializing in 2nd edition correctly (maybe 3.5 too?), specializing in conjuation meant locking yourself out of both divination and evocation

Why do i remember this? No idea, but its still there

[samcifer]

a bonus list with the combination of Necromancy/Divination is going to be a really sad one

As someone who favors damaging spells, for me the ideal combo would be Evocation with Transmutation or Abjuration (for defense)

[MrCharlie]

(A) Do note that the Aberrant Mind gets better subtle casting. E.g. if a normal sorcerer casts Subtle Detect Thoughts, he still needs to take out a copper piece and manipulate it with a free hand during casting. (Technically by strict RAW an arcane focus will work too because the spell text doesn't say "a copper piece worth 1 cp", but come on, it's a copper piece. It has a value.) Because the spell still has components, it's clearly detectable.

An Aberrant Mind casting Detect Thoughts has no components, and may or may not be detectable (DM ruling, possibly situation-dependent). But he definitely is sneakier, and doesn't need a free hand.

I think your instinct to go for Clockwork Soul was correct. Aberrant Mind is sort of for people who want to mess around with NPCs' heads between/outside of combat, as opposed to being primarily a combat mage.

(B) Historically, Illusion and Necromancy have been opposed schools (e.g. Necromancers in AD&D can't cast Illusion spells, or Enchantment spells actually IIRC), so one might hope that they wouldn't pair Illusion/Necromancy. On the other hand, so are Abjuration and Alteration ("Transmutation" in 5E) opposed schools, and they went ahead and paired those, so who knows.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/iu6hi.jpg
A. Is very much not a good assumption. It's called subtle spell and most DMs would take it at face value, and most of those remaining would require some sort of check after, which casting it subtly has enabled. Point being that some spells requiring material components is a very small difference. It's still an effectively free metamagic, but it's rare that its great capabilities over regular subtle spell will ever come up.

Otherwise I agree mostly. Clockwork is a better combat school but Aberrant grants you some nutso abilities with enchantment, which is similar to the old abjurer/evoker versus illusionist/enchanter debate I've seen on wizard school boards-some are combat mages, and some can do combat magic but are best at influencing non-combat encounters. Either way, they all do their niche well, which is what I feel when looking at Clockwork and Aberrant; different specializations, neither worse or better than the other. Abberant does have to deal with the sadness that is the divination list, even now, and in particular with the fact that sorcerers aren't really that great at utilizing divination spells, but it's not a bad list.


If i remember correctly, specializing in 2nd edition correctly (maybe 3.5 too?), specializing in conjuation meant locking yourself out of both divination and evocation

Why do i remember this? No idea, but its still there
Correct for 2nd, for 3.0 you had a bunch of different options of what to pick as opposition (either one of evocation and transmutation, two of abjuration enchantment or illusion, or three of any). All the schools were like this. In 3.5 you just picked two opposition schools, unless you picked divination, in which case it was one.

(Because it's been known for a while that divination had the fewest spells and the most limited spells)

Conjuration has always been the winning school for several editions though, in terms of variety of effects-debuffs from making things, summoning things, teleporting, doing damage with summoned things like acid, etc. Only transmutation has given it a rival, with it's incredibly broad range of debuffs, buffs, enhancement (not enchantment!) and occasionally telekinetic spells.

[SharkForce]

Honestly, this may sound odd given the historical opposites, but I could see evocation/conjuration paired with draconic sorcerers ue to the focus on elemental magic, and illusion/necromancy paired with shadow sorcs due to the "shadow theme", divine souls getting a mish/mash of clericy spells, and wild sorcs getting a WILDCARD!

there was actually a weird double-specialized wizard option where you get the two most-opposed schools only, but double the specialization bonuses (so +2 spells per spell level, +2 to saves against the schools, -2 for enemies saving against those spells, etc).

I believe it had something to do with a line of D&D videos they were making where the BBEG was an illusion/necromancy specialist. the videos were pretty terrible, from what I understand, but we got an interesting idea out of it I guess.

edit: ah, got someone to remind me of the name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DragonStrike_(board_game)

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/298371/wild-space

(the weird stuff you learn about when you hang around in the right places :) )

[MaxWilson]

For the sake of discussion, here are the available spells for an Aberrant Mind, assuming that the DM has added Tasha's Mind Whip to the wizard spell list:

1st: Arms of Hadar, Dissonant Whispers, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Hex, Identify, Sleep, Tasha's Hideous Laughter
2nd: Calm Emotions, Detect Thoughts, Crown of Madness, Enthrall, Hold Person, Locate Object, Mind Spike, See Invisibility, Suggestion, Tasha's Mind Whip
3rd: Hunger of Hadar, Sending, Catnap, Clairvoyance, Enemies Abound, Tongues
4th: Evard's Black Tentacles, Summon Aberration, Arcane Eye, Charm Monster, Confusion, Dominate Beast, Locate Creature
5th: Rary's Telepathic Bond, Telekinesis, Contact Other Plane, Dominate Person, Geas, Hold Monster, Legend Lore, Modify Memory, Scrying, Synaptic Static

Bolding the ones I find desirable for combat or subterfuge/shenanigans, and underlining my likely final two picks for each spell level:

1st: Arms of Hadar, Dissonant Whispers, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Hex, Identify, Sleep, Tasha's Hideous Laughter
2nd: Calm Emotions, Detect Thoughts, Crown of Madness, Enthrall, Hold Person, Locate Object, Mind Spike, See Invisibility, Suggestion, Tasha's Mind Whip
3rd: Hunger of Hadar, Sending, Catnap, Clairvoyance, Enemies Abound, Tongues
4th: Evard's Black Tentacles, Summon Aberration, Arcane Eye, Charm Monster, Confusion, Dominate Beast, Locate Creature
5th: Rary's Telepathic Bond, Telekinesis, Contact Other Plane, Dominate Person, Geas, Hold Monster, Legend Lore, Modify Memory, Scrying, Synaptic Static

Yes folks, you read that right: Enthrall actually seems worthwhile to me if the DM rules that nobody can perceive componentless spellcasting. Note that for Suggestion, Geas and Modify Memory you still have to speak to the target to give your suggestion/commands/new memories, but especially for Suggestion you may be able to disguise it as normal conversation, a la "These aren't the Droids you're looking for" without the mystical gestures.

Anyway, the point is that even with the restricted list, there's still way more good spells on there than even an Aberrant Mind can afford to take, let alone a regular sorcerer, so you'll be getting lots of mileage out of those 10 extra spells.

P.S. Sleep is pretty crummy in combat after Tier 1, but I took Sleep for noncombat, because it's a non-concentration effect you can use on NPCs to give yourself more alone time with a chosen NPC target, e.g. to make Suggestions.

[Gtdead]

These level 1 spells as an Aberrant are juicy. For one sorcery point you can cast a Dissonant Whispers to trigger AoOs for example. It's great value.

[samcifer]

Is Tongues useful in battle? I wonder...

[Kireban]

For the sake of discussion, here are the available spells for an Aberrant Mind, assuming that the DM has added Tasha's Mind Whip to the wizard spell list:

1st: Arms of Hadar, Dissonant Whispers, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Hex, Identify, Sleep, Tasha's Hideous Laughter
2nd: Calm Emotions, Detect Thoughts, Crown of Madness, Enthrall, Hold Person, Locate Object, Mind Spike, See Invisibility, Suggestion, Tasha's Mind Whip
3rd: Hunger of Hadar, Sending, Catnap, Clairvoyance, Enemies Abound, Tongues
4th: Evard's Black Tentacles, Summon Aberration, Arcane Eye, Charm Monster, Confusion, Dominate Beast, Locate Creature
5th: Rary's Telepathic Bond, Telekinesis, Contact Other Plane, Dominate Person, Geas, Hold Monster, Legend Lore, Modify Memory, Scrying, Synaptic Static

Bolding the ones I find desirable for combat or subterfuge/shenanigans, and underlining my likely final two picks for each spell level:

1st: Arms of Hadar, Dissonant Whispers, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Hex, Identify, Sleep, Tasha's Hideous Laughter
2nd: Calm Emotions, Detect Thoughts, Crown of Madness, Enthrall, Hold Person, Locate Object, Mind Spike, See Invisibility, Suggestion, Tasha's Mind Whip
3rd: Hunger of Hadar, Sending, Catnap, Clairvoyance, Enemies Abound, Tongues
4th: Evard's Black Tentacles, Summon Aberration, Arcane Eye, Charm Monster, Confusion, Dominate Beast, Locate Creature
5th: Rary's Telepathic Bond, Telekinesis, Contact Other Plane, Dominate Person, Geas, Hold Monster, Legend Lore, Modify Memory, Scrying, Synaptic Static

Yes folks, you read that right: Enthrall actually seems worthwhile to me if the DM rules that nobody can perceive componentless spellcasting. Note that for Suggestion, Geas and Modify Memory you still have to speak to the target to give your suggestion/commands/new memories, but especially for Suggestion you may be able to disguise it as normal conversation, a la "These aren't the Droids you're looking for" without the mystical gestures.

Anyway, the point is that even with the restricted list, there's still way more good spells on there than even an Aberrant Mind can afford to take, let alone a regular sorcerer, so you'll be getting lots of mileage out of those 10 extra spells.

This spell list is not bad (and it better wont be, since your 6th level feature works with it), but you must admit that it is going to contain spells with similar effects and niche spells- something you wont see usually in sorcerers' known spells lists.

[MaxWilson]

This spell list is not bad (and it better wont be, since your 6th level feature works with it), but you must admit that it is going to contain spells with similar effects and niche spells- something you wont see usually in sorcerers' known spells lists.

Sure, absolutely--with that list (Sleep, Tasha's Laughter, Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, Clairvoyance, Enemies Abound, Evard's Black Tentacles, Summon Aberration, Telekinesis, Dominate Person), I'd definitely have a theme (mind-mangling). Then I can use the rest of my spells to round out my capabilities with other stuff (Shield, Absorb Elements, Counterspell, Fireball, etc.), without feeling like I'm cramping my own theme.

But you don't want to do play this subclass unless you like that theme. You can't convert Aberrant Mind into a healer or a necromancer, not convincingly.

I think we basically agree here: it's a good niche, but it's not for everybody. Yes?

[Kireban]

Sure, absolutely--with that list (Sleep, Tasha's Laughter, Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, Clairvoyance, Enemies Abound, Evard's Black Tentacles, Summon Aberration, Telekinesis, Dominate Person), I'd definitely have a theme (mind-mangling). Then I can use the rest of my spells to round out my capabilities with other stuff (Shield, Absorb Elements, Counterspell, Fireball, etc.), without feeling like I'm cramping my own theme.

But you don't want to do play this subclass unless you like that theme. You can't convert Aberrant Mind into a healer or a necromancer, not convincingly.

I think we basically agree here: it's a good niche, but it's not for everybody. Yes?

Yep. I really hope to play this sub soon and think that it will be really fun (from level 6 :P). I just dont think that it is right to say that Clockwork and Aberrant make the other subs obsolete.

[Luccan]

Yep. I really hope to play this sub soon and think that it will be really fun (from level 6 :P). I just dont think that it is right to say that Clockwork and Aberrant make the other subs obsolete.

I really don't think complete obsolescence is the issue. Aberrant and Clockwork give you the spells for their themes... and then you get all the spells a sorcerer normally gets. It's just exceptionally imbalanced. Unless you really want to do specifically what the other subclasses do, the issue is they get to be specialists and better generalists than other sorcerers.

It doesn't even really matter if the subclass abilities are weaker, because usually getting one free spell known is normally half a subclass ability (Shadow sorcerer, Transmutation wizard, etc.) and they get two for their first five spell levels and normal subclass abilities that are, at worst, just fine.

Edit: I'm not really opposed to what happened with these subclasses (although I think they went overboard on the free spells and being able to switch them out), I just think not doing the same for the other sorc subclasses is born from laziness, not a desire for balance. Though I'm sure they will claim it is balanced, like with ranger.

[MaxWilson]

Yep. I really hope to play this sub soon and think that it will be really fun (from level 6 :P). I just dont think that it is right to say that Clockwork and Aberrant make the other subs obsolete.

I think Clockwork comes a lot closer to obsoleting Draconic/Shadow/Wild/Storm than Aberrant does.

Of course, my own personal response to that is, "All right, I'll go back to giving domain spells to everybody then."

[Kireban]

I see the new subs like this (will you be able to guess which is which?):

"Hey, remember wanting to play a sorcerer but deciding against it because of the low amount of spells? So we made a generic one with a lot of them just for you!"

"We know that you are jealous of the wizard's subs with the free pseudo metamagics, so we made one just for you. It will be great, just remember the theme"

[MaxWilson]

I see the new subs like this (will you be able to guess which is which?):

"Hey, remember wanting to play a sorcerer but deciding against it because of the low amount of spells? So we made a generic one with a lot of them just for you!"

"We know that you are jealous of the wizard's subs with the free pseudo metamagics, so we made one just for you. It will be great, just remember the theme"

Clearly those are draconic and wild sorc, respectively.

[KorvinStarmast]

Is Tongues useful in battle? I wonder... Our groups have discovered that it is useful in preventing battles in many cases. :smallwink:

[MrCharlie]

Is Tongues useful in battle? I wonder...
Solves communication problems between NPCs and PCs, which can come up every once in a while.

As an aside, in a real medieval battlefield Tongues would be absolutely incredible simply because mercenaries and often the foot soldiers didn't always (or even often) speak the same language as their commanders. DnD, with it's wide variety of races and cosmopolitan assumptions, sidesteps this in most settings with no great explanation.


For the sake of discussion, here are the available spells for an Aberrant Mind, assuming that the DM has added Tasha's Mind Whip to the wizard spell list:

1st: Arms of Hadar, Dissonant Whispers, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Hex, Identify, Sleep, Tasha's Hideous Laughter
2nd: Calm Emotions, Detect Thoughts, Crown of Madness, Enthrall, Hold Person, Locate Object, Mind Spike, See Invisibility, Suggestion, Tasha's Mind Whip
3rd: Hunger of Hadar, Sending, Catnap, Clairvoyance, Enemies Abound, Tongues
4th: Evard's Black Tentacles, Summon Aberration, Arcane Eye, Charm Monster, Confusion, Dominate Beast, Locate Creature
5th: Rary's Telepathic Bond, Telekinesis, Contact Other Plane, Dominate Person, Geas, Hold Monster, Legend Lore, Modify Memory, Scrying, Synaptic Static

Bolding the ones I find desirable for combat or subterfuge/shenanigans, and underlining my likely final two picks for each spell level:

1st: Arms of Hadar, Dissonant Whispers, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Hex, Identify, Sleep, Tasha's Hideous Laughter
2nd: Calm Emotions, Detect Thoughts, Crown of Madness, Enthrall, Hold Person, Locate Object, Mind Spike, See Invisibility, Suggestion, Tasha's Mind Whip
3rd: Hunger of Hadar, Sending, Catnap, Clairvoyance, Enemies Abound, Tongues
4th: Evard's Black Tentacles, Summon Aberration, Arcane Eye, Charm Monster, Confusion, Dominate Beast, Locate Creature
5th: Rary's Telepathic Bond, Telekinesis, Contact Other Plane, Dominate Person, Geas, Hold Monster, Legend Lore, Modify Memory, Scrying, Synaptic Static

Yes folks, you read that right: Enthrall actually seems worthwhile to me if the DM rules that nobody can perceive componentless spellcasting. Note that for Suggestion, Geas and Modify Memory you still have to speak to the target to give your suggestion/commands/new memories, but especially for Suggestion you may be able to disguise it as normal conversation, a la "These aren't the Droids you're looking for" without the mystical gestures.

Anyway, the point is that even with the restricted list, there's still way more good spells on there than even an Aberrant Mind can afford to take, let alone a regular sorcerer, so you'll be getting lots of mileage out of those 10 extra spells.

P.S. Sleep is pretty crummy in combat after Tier 1, but I took Sleep for noncombat, because it's a non-concentration effect you can use on NPCs to give yourself more alone time with a chosen NPC target, e.g. to make Suggestions.
Great list. Also, the idea of using enthrall when you can't be perceived is really interesting, and makes the spell a lot better. It also fits thematically-you're whispering into the targets mind and all. But enthrall has as much justification for requiring speaking as the others-it starts saying that you "weave a distracting string of words" and requires the target to hear you, so unless you're good with a tailor's kit...

[bendking]

For the sake of discussion, here are the available spells for an Aberrant Mind, assuming that the DM has added Tasha's Mind Whip to the wizard spell list:

1st: Arms of Hadar, Dissonant Whispers, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Hex, Identify, Sleep, Tasha's Hideous Laughter
2nd: Calm Emotions, Detect Thoughts, Crown of Madness, Enthrall, Hold Person, Locate Object, Mind Spike, See Invisibility, Suggestion, Tasha's Mind Whip
3rd: Hunger of Hadar, Sending, Catnap, Clairvoyance, Enemies Abound, Tongues
4th: Evard's Black Tentacles, Summon Aberration, Arcane Eye, Charm Monster, Confusion, Dominate Beast, Locate Creature
5th: Rary's Telepathic Bond, Telekinesis, Contact Other Plane, Dominate Person, Geas, Hold Monster, Legend Lore, Modify Memory, Scrying, Synaptic Static

Bolding the ones I find desirable for combat or subterfuge/shenanigans, and underlining my likely final two picks for each spell level:

1st: Arms of Hadar, Dissonant Whispers, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Hex, Identify, Sleep, Tasha's Hideous Laughter
2nd: Calm Emotions, Detect Thoughts, Crown of Madness, Enthrall, Hold Person, Locate Object, Mind Spike, See Invisibility, Suggestion, Tasha's Mind Whip
3rd: Hunger of Hadar, Sending, Catnap, Clairvoyance, Enemies Abound, Tongues
4th: Evard's Black Tentacles, Summon Aberration, Arcane Eye, Charm Monster, Confusion, Dominate Beast, Locate Creature
5th: Rary's Telepathic Bond, Telekinesis, Contact Other Plane, Dominate Person, Geas, Hold Monster, Legend Lore, Modify Memory, Scrying, Synaptic Static

Yes folks, you read that right: Enthrall actually seems worthwhile to me if the DM rules that nobody can perceive componentless spellcasting. Note that for Suggestion, Geas and Modify Memory you still have to speak to the target to give your suggestion/commands/new memories, but especially for Suggestion you may be able to disguise it as normal conversation, a la "These aren't the Droids you're looking for" without the mystical gestures.

Anyway, the point is that even with the restricted list, there's still way more good spells on there than even an Aberrant Mind can afford to take, let alone a regular sorcerer, so you'll be getting lots of mileage out of those 10 extra spells.

P.S. Sleep is pretty crummy in combat after Tier 1, but I took Sleep for noncombat, because it's a non-concentration effect you can use on NPCs to give yourself more alone time with a chosen NPC target, e.g. to make Suggestions.

Great picks. Later on, I would replace Sleep with Hex to screw with NPCs even more, and would replace Dominate Person with Modify Memory because it's insane on an Aberrant Mind.

One incredible thing about Aberrant Mind is that Telepathic Speech lets you talk with your target telepathically. Thus, you can cast spells like Suggestion, Modify Memory, and Geas without making a sound and with no material components.
You can literally walk up to a king (bonus points for emperor), plant whatever memory you want in his head, and walk away without anyone being the wiser. And you can cast Suggestion on anyone without there being any tells.
This subclass is the craziest social manipulator to exist in this edition by FAR.

[MaxWilson]

Great picks. Later on, I would replace Sleep with Hex to screw with NPCs even more, and would replace Dominate Person with Modify Memory because it's insane on an Aberrant Mind.

One incredible thing about Aberrant Mind is that Telepathic Speech lets you talk with your target telepathically. Thus, you can cast spells like Suggestion, Modify Memory, and Geas without making a sound and with no material components.
You can literally walk up to a king (bonus points for emperor), plant whatever memory you want in his head, and walk away without anyone being the wiser. And you can cast Suggestion on anyone without there being any tells.
This subclass is the craziest social manipulator to exist in this edition by FAR.

Ah, good point about the telepathy. That helps quite a lot actually.

I still like Sleep for putting witnesses out of commission, but yeah, Telepathy does make me value Modify Memory more. I'd drop Telekinesis and take Dominate Person + Modify Memory in that case.

And, it's not like you tracelessly(?) Hex people anyway (if you have a warlock dip), just by pre-casting it and killing whatever you cast it on and then re-assigning it to whomever you're with later on "as a bonus action", whatever that means. (DM may rule that the bonus action in question constitutes giving people the hairy eyeball/evil eye, in which case it would be detected, but presumably that would happen even if you were casting Hex via Aberrant Mind feature so it's a wash either way. Yes, it's annoying that WotC gives all of their rules in game jargon like "as a bonus action" instead of providing actual descriptions of what you do, but c'est la vie, that's WotC for you.)

[bendking]

Ah, good point about the telepathy. That helps quite a lot actually.

I still like Sleep for putting witnesses out of commission, but yeah, Telepathy does make me value Modify Memory more. I'd drop Telekinesis and take Dominate Person + Modify Memory in that case.

And, it's not like you tracelessly(?) Hex people anyway (if you have a warlock dip), just by pre-casting it and killing whatever you cast it on and then re-assigning it to whomever you're with later on "as a bonus action", whatever that means. (DM may rule that the bonus action in question constitutes giving people the hairy eyeball/evil eye, in which case it would be detected, but presumably that would happen even if you were casting Hex via Aberrant Mind feature so it's a wash either way. Yes, it's annoying that WotC gives all of their rules in game jargon like "as a bonus action" instead of providing actual descriptions of what you do, but c'est la vie, that's WotC for you.)

Personally, Dominate Person is too swingy for my taste unless you get Heighten, and even then it is still a gamble. Telekinesis is crazy strong with Quicken and goes past Magic Resistance and Legendary resistance, which is an incredibly useful ability to have.
You might be right about Hex, it's the spell I'm least sure about. Sleep or Disonnant Whispers might be better to keep.

[Segev]

Thinking about "bonus spells" being added, it's not even really necessary that all subclasses have the same number of bonus spells, if you feel some need them.

For example, if a draconic sorcerer needs a little boost, but not a big one, maybe it gets 1 bonus spell per spell level they know that deals a kind of damage its draconic ancestry is elementally aligned with. (If you want to prevent chromatic orb from being an over-chosen pick, you could make it be required that it ONLY deals that kind of damage.)

[Kireban]

From looking at how aberrant mind start his unique play style at level 6, I do believe that giving Wild Magic his Controlled Chaos at level 6 can make the class strong while not overpowered. Level 14 is just too far for a class mechanic feature.

[Mitchellnotes]

Thinking about "bonus spells" being added, it's not even really necessary that all subclasses have the same number of bonus spells, if you feel some need them.

For example, if a draconic sorcerer needs a little boost, but not a big one, maybe it gets 1 bonus spell per spell level they know that deals a kind of damage its draconic ancestry is elementally aligned with. (If you want to prevent chromatic orb from being an over-chosen pick, you could make it be required that it ONLY deals that kind of damage.)

I love the idea of giving characters 1 spell per spell level to spell level 5. Especially warlocks (and not ones that need to be swapped out either). It gives a few more options per subclass, and gives the subclasses a bit more flavor as well. It wouldn't need to be 2 per level (even the new subclasses, an extra 10 spells is huge, 5 is still meaningful but much more in line powerwise)

[TheUser]

I haven't calculated the value of extra spells, but even if I do, they should worth no more than 0.5 feat.

Fey-touched/shadow touched are bad feats, and their major benefits of extra spells are "extra spell slots.", not "extra spell known".

Lore bard is great because he could get "class ability spell"(Find Familiar, Find Greater Steed), "extremely overpowered spell"(summon animal, Gift of Alacrity, Healing Spirit) or spells that uses bard's useless reaction(Counterspell), not some random, weak spells. Those extra spell known should be compared with Ritual Caster, and in general not very useful.

I needed to hop back into the thread just demolish this notion that 10 bonus spells known that can come from any of 3 spell lists and are MUTABLE being worth half a feat.


If you have 10 spells known (a 9th level sorcerer) and you think of them as a type of tool that has a specific use for a given scenario and you literally double the number of tools you have at your disposal and the number of metamagic interactions you have available on a fullcaster, considering that half a feat is grounds for dismissal of your analysis on the topic entirely. To think as such demonstrates either, a lack of experience as a sorcerer player to understand why having 10 extra spells is a gigantic boon and/or a lack of D&D white rooming abilities to understand how literally doubling your number of tools is almost a doubling of your character's potential because you now interact with twice as many situations in an optimal way.

I can't believe that this weighting is even being given the time of day...

Comparing it to feats like Ritual Caster is also a flawed premise; it's not Ritual Caster because these spells don't have a 10 minute casting time...

[jojosskul]

I agree that the new subclasses bonus spell lists push them towards the top of the sorceror power list, but there's one aspect of Clockwork Soul that no one has mentioned so far.

If you look at the text, while Aberrant Mind is the master of subtle casting, Clockwork Soul cannot realistically use Subtle at ALL. You choose a manifestation of order (or roll for it) and that happens EVERY time a Clockwork Soul casts a spell. Even if you take Subtle, your only benefit is the "I'm tied up and gagged and need to escape or blow up a fool" scenario. And even then you're surrounded by giant cogwheels, your eyes turn into clocks, or you're surrounded by glowing mathematical equations while you do it. I'd argue that since you always manifest these things when you cast, your subtle cast spells are even vulnerable to counterspell since anyone watching would know SOMETHING is going on.

It's still a FANTASTIC subclass, and I plan to play one as soon as I get a chance, but that is one drawback that no other Sorcerer subclass has.

[RSP]

I agree that the new subclasses bonus spell lists push them towards the top of the sorceror power list, but there's one aspect of Clockwork Soul that no one has mentioned so far.

If you look at the text, while Aberrant Mind is the master of subtle casting, Clockwork Soul cannot realistically use Subtle at ALL. You choose a manifestation of order (or roll for it) and that happens EVERY time a Clockwork Soul casts a spell. Even if you take Subtle, your only benefit is the "I'm tied up and gagged and need to escape or blow up a fool" scenario. And even then you're surrounded by giant cogwheels, your eyes turn into clocks, or you're surrounded by glowing mathematical equations while you do it. I'd argue that since you always manifest these things when you cast, your subtle cast spells are even vulnerable to counterspell since anyone watching would know SOMETHING is going on.

It's still a FANTASTIC subclass, and I plan to play one as soon as I get a chance, but that is one drawback that no other Sorcerer subclass has.

Good point. I think this furthers the point that each fills a certain playstyle, similar to the others.

[Luccan]

Good point. I think this furthers the point that each fills a certain playstyle, similar to the others.

"Can't cast subtle spell" isn't part of a specific playstyle, since that also applies to every sorcerer that doesn't take subtle spell. Though I will admit it's an actual drawback, as opposed to the other class features, which aren't

Edit: actually I'm not sure it is. You can pick your manifestation. Choose the focus one and you're no more obvious than any other sorcerer. Choose the eyes and cast from hiding or from far away and the target and others will never know. Choose the noise and as long as you don't care that only the target knows you cast, it makes no difference. Yeah, actually I'm gonna say this is basically entirely cosmetic unless you want it to impact you

[jojosskul]

"Can't cast subtle spell" isn't part of a specific playstyle, since that also applies to every sorcerer that doesn't take subtle spell. Though I will admit it's an actual drawback, as opposed to the other class features, which aren't

Edit: actually I'm not sure it is. You can pick your manifestation. Choose the focus one and you're no more obvious than any other sorcerer. Choose the eyes and cast from hiding or from far away and the target and others will never know. Choose the noise and as long as you don't care that only the target knows you cast, it makes no difference. Yeah, actually I'm gonna say this basically entirely cosmetic unless you want it to impact you

Good point, I suppose only the ones I mentioned, and possibly the one where your skin turns metallic, are hard to work around. Do the eyes and just invest in cool fantasy sunglasses!

[RSP]

"Can't cast subtle spell" isn't part of a specific playstyle, since that also applies to every sorcerer that doesn't take subtle spell. Though I will admit it's an actual drawback, as opposed to the other class features, which aren't

Edit: actually I'm not sure it is. You can pick your manifestation. Choose the focus one and you're no more obvious than any other sorcerer. Choose the eyes and cast from hiding or from far away and the target and others will never know. Choose the noise and as long as you don't care that only the target knows you cast, it makes no difference. Yeah, actually I'm gonna say this is basically entirely cosmetic unless you want it to impact you

Depends on the situation: for instance, if you can “cast from hiding” Subtle doesn’t matter at all to any caster; but certain of these effects might reveal your position, making it a drawback. Others might only be noticeable while up close, but that’s where a lot of social casting opportunities occur.

I’m not suggesting this drawback makes the CS unplayable, just restating that the subclasses for Sorc each serve different mechanical play styles and the two new ones don’t appear to change that.

[Luccan]

Depends on the situation: for instance, if you can “cast from hiding” Subtle doesn’t matter at all to any caster; but certain of these effects might reveal your position, making it a drawback. Others might only be noticeable while up close, but that’s where a lot of social casting opportunities occur.

I’m not suggesting this drawback makes the CS unplayable, just restating that the subclasses for Sorc each serve different mechanical play styles and the two new ones don’t appear to change that.

Right, but as I said, because you can always choose the manifestation that isn't any more obvious than having a focus (something that doesn't always play nice with subtle spell anyway) it doesn't actually have any more impact unless the player wants it to.

And I don't really care that they fill a different roll, because they get to do that while also filling other rolls because of all the bonus spells.

[RSP]

Right, but as I said, because you can always choose the manifestation that isn't any more obvious than having a focus (something that doesn't always play nice with subtle spell anyway) it doesn't actually have any more impact unless the player wants it to.

And I don't really care that they fill a different roll, because they get to do that while also filling other rolls because of all the bonus spells.

Depends. Known spells was never a big issue for me with the Sorc. It’s certainly a boon to have more, but most play styles fit with what they can have available.

The issue I have with the Sorc as a class is everything tracks off the same limited resource: Sorc Points. Second to that is their limited Metamagic selection, however, this ties into their spells known as generally you want to plan spells and Metamagic together to match playstyle.

The new Metamagic Adept feat helps this, to an extent, but everything drawing on Sorc Points still limits what a Sorc can do: if they’re using SP for more slots to flex those new spells known muscles, great; but that’s less Metamagic available. Likewise, if using SP (and canabolizing spell slots perhaps) for Metamagic uses, you’ll have spells known that aren’t being used due to limited casting.

This is why I believe the new subclasses, while powerful, don’t really change how the old ones will be used: DS is still probably the best buffer, Draconic the best blaster, Wild still has its unique schtick. Shadow still does it’s bit better than the new ones (darkness and the hound effects).

CS is closer to being a Wizard, but Wizard still wins out in terms of versatility. It’s nice having some versatility AND Metamagic, though, to an extent, Wizards can grab that with Metamagic Adept as well.

Again, I understand why people like the new subclasses, I just don’t feel they tread on the old ones: they offer new and different play styles for a class of specialization.

[Mitchellnotes]

Depends. Known spells was never a big issue for me with the Sorc. It’s certainly a boon to have more, but most play styles fit with what they can have available.

The issue I have with the Sorc as a class is everything tracks off the same limited resource: Sorc Points. Second to that is their limited Metamagic selection, however, this ties into their spells known as generally you want to plan spells and Metamagic together to match playstyle.

The new Metamagic Adept feat helps this, to an extent, but everything drawing on Sorc Points still limits what a Sorc can do: if they’re using SP for more slots to flex those new spells known muscles, great; but that’s less Metamagic available. Likewise, if using SP (and canabolizing spell slots perhaps) for Metamagic uses, you’ll have spells known that aren’t being used due to limited casting.

This is why I believe the new subclasses, while powerful, don’t really change how the old ones will be used: DS is still probably the best buffer, Draconic the best blaster, Wild still has its unique schtick. Shadow still does it’s bit better than the new ones (darkness and the hound effects).

CS is closer to being a Wizard, but Wizard still wins out in terms of versatility. It’s nice having some versatility AND Metamagic, though, to an extent, Wizards can grab that with Metamagic Adept as well.

Again, I understand why people like the new subclasses, I just don’t feel they tread on the old ones: they offer new and different play styles for a class of specialization.

I feel like Storm Sorcerer is the "...and Peggy!" of the sorcerer world.

[bendking]

Good point. I think this furthers the point that each fills a certain playstyle, similar to the others.

Eh...
Wild Magic Sorcerer doesn't really fill a certain playstyle. Every style can benefit from its perks.
Shadow Sorcerer doesn't really do that either. I mean, he gets a free Heighten, but all playstyles can benefit from that.
Storm Sorcerer kind of warrants a close-range playstyle, but that's just a bad idea.

Divine Soul, Draconic, and Aberrant Mind definitely reinforce a playstyle, though.

And if ANY Sorcerer can't use Subtle consistently, it's the Wild Magic Sorcerer.
Clockwork Soul can literally just pick the eyes thing and wear shades, or choose the equation thing and wear long sleeves. It's a flavor feat, nothing more.

[TheUser]

And if ANY Sorcerer can't use Subtle consistently, it's the Wild Magic Sorcerer.
Clockwork Soul can literally just pick the eyes thing and wear shades, or choose the equation thing and wear long sleeves. It's a flavor feat, nothing more.

I'm just ecstatic that this whole minor discussion revolving around a lack of compatibility with subtle has cropped up organically and with actual deal-breaker levels of importance; I've been riding the subtle spell hype train for 5 years now and seeing it be recognized with this level of importanr by more than just myself feels like all my years of trying to hard sell it have finally paid off ;)

[RSP]

Eh...
Wild Magic Sorcerer doesn't really fill a certain playstyle. Every style can benefit from its perks.
Shadow Sorcerer doesn't really do that either. I mean, he gets a free Heighten, but all playstyles can benefit from that.
Storm Sorcerer kind of warrants a close-range playstyle, but that's just a bad idea.

Divine Soul, Draconic, and Aberrant Mind definitely reinforce a playstyle, though.

And if ANY Sorcerer can't use Subtle consistently, it's the Wild Magic Sorcerer.
Clockwork Soul can literally just pick the eyes thing and wear shades, or choose the equation thing and wear long sleeves. It's a flavor feat, nothing more.

Not sure I agree with this point of view: I’m pretty sure anyone constantly hiding their eyes, particularly in situations of importance where people are going to be on the lookout for magic, is going to be distrusted.

Underground, inside, overcast days, etc, will highly standout, at least how I see it.

WM is pretty DM dependent, in terms of whether or not it would be called out for making Subtle moot (well, in terms of everything it’s DM dependent). If the DM decides the Surges use components, then negative effect Surges can be Counterspell-ed, or Subtle-d even. I don’t think that’s the intent of the Surges though. I imagine the Surge effects are supposed to occur without components or requiring the WM Sorc’s Concentration.

Some effects would be noticeable, but that’s kind of what you’re signing up for if you’re playing a WM Sorc.

[Luccan]

I'm just ecstatic that this whole minor discussion revolving around a lack of compatibility with subtle has cropped up organically and with actual deal-breaker levels of importance; I've been riding the subtle spell hype train for 5 years now and seeing it be recognized with this level of importanr by more than just myself feels like all my years of trying to hard sell it have finally paid off ;)

I've seen some overhype for it in the past, but there are definitely those who significantly undersell the advantages of imperceptible magic.

[Gyor]

I've seen comments saying that part of the balance of the new subclasses is that they have lesser features than the old subclasses in exchange for the bonus spell list. Today I would like to put that argument to the test by comparing Clockwork Soul to the rest of the Sorcerer subclasses (without taking into account the 14th and 18th level features which most players will never get).
Clockwork Soul has Clockwork Magic, Restore Balance, and Bastion of Law. These are 3 features, none of which is a ribbon, and one of them is crazy good (Clockwork Magic). However, I will not compare any of the features to Clockwork Magic because it would obviously be better than all of them. I will only compare features with Restore Balance and Bastion of Law and mention Clockwork Magic when appropriate to judge a feature's usefulness.

Draconic Sorcerer
Dragon Ancestor - Mostly a ribbon. Influences Elemental Affinity later.
Draconic Resilience - Typically a great feature, but then you notice Clockwork Soul can get Mage Armor and Shield on his spell list for free (sure, you have to waste a 1st level slot to cast Mage Armor, but it's just a 1st level), the natural armor you get from this feature isn't looking that great anymore, when it used to be considered fantastic partly for saving you a single spell known. That leaves us with the +1 HP per level, which is good for a squishy class, but removing disadvantage/advantage from saving throws 2-6 times a day is better.
Elemental Affinity - Big blasty spells! This is a fantastic feature for blasters, which I would say is definitely better than Bastion of Law.

Summary:
1 ribbon, 1 worse, 1 better.

Wild Magic Sorcerer
Wild Magic Surge - A 1/20 chance for a Wild Surge upon casting a spell is basically a ribbon.
Tides of Chaos - Ah, Tides of Chaos. If your DM is favorable towards you and triggers the surge often, or even all the time, this feature is fantastic. If he doesn't at all, this feature sucks. Weird feature to rate, to be honest.
Bend Luck - A decent feature, if somewhat expensive. 1d4 reduction from saving throws is great, of course, but the price is quite high. I would be hard-pressed to say that this is definitely better than Bastion of Law, a similarly expensive option, but one that uniquely lets you nova combat-preperation. For the sake of being extra fair and avoiding arguments, let's say that this is better than Bastion of Law.

Summary:
1 ribbon, 1 schrodinger's feature, 1 better.

Storm Sorcerer
Wind Speaker - Ribbon.
Tempestuous Magic - 10 feet of movement as a bonus action upon casting a leveled spell (with no AoO) is definitely worse than Restore Balance in my mind.
Heart of the Storm - A mediocre close-range AoE is not a good feature for a Sorcerer and is definitely not as good as Bastion of Law.

Summary:
1 ribbon, 2 worse.

Shadow Sorcerer
Eyes of the Dark - Hey, that's pretty good. The Darkvision is great, but the free Darkness doesn't do much for us now that we can get 10 spells known as Clockwork Soul.
Strength of the Grave - OK feature. Might save you from death, but probably won't if you're facing high CR enemies with big hits. Restore Balance is better in my opinion.
Hound of Ill Omen - Free metamagic, and it's an improved Heighten. Better than Bastion of Law for sure.

Summary:
1 not-a-ribbon-but-not-as-good-as-before, 1 worse, 1 better

Divine Soul Sorcerer
Divine Magic - Oh boy. OK, so this one is a little tricky, but only because I think a lot of people overestimate how good opening a new spell list for a class with 15 spells known is. Does it open up a new and unique playstyle for Sorcerers? Definitely! Does it make this subclass objectively better than the rest? Definitely not. It also gives a single spell known, which is paltry in comparison to what Clockwork Magic gives us.
Favored by the Gods - Good, but I rate this to be equivalent to Restore Balance if not worse.
Empowered Healing - OK. The 5 feet limitation is quite harsh, and it also only works on a single ally, so you can't empower mass cure wounds and the like. Bastion of Law is at least equivalent if not outright better. To be extra fair, let's say equivalent.

Summary:
1 not-a-ribbon-but-not-incredible-either, 1 worse, 1 equivalent

Conclusion:
The only subclasses with somewhat better features (when not comparing to Clockwork Magic) are Shadow and Divine Soul Draconic, and even then: it's arguable. Even if you concede that they are better, it would only be by a small margin in my opinion. Thus, I believe the argument that the old subclasses have better features, even when not comparing them to a bonus spell list, does not hold water.

That not how Empowered Healing works. The caster, not the recipients of the healing have to be within 5 feet of the Divine Soul for Empowered Healing to be used to enhance the healing spell.

Example a Druid is right beside the Divine Soul on one side and a Bard is on the other side of the Divine Soul, and a Couatl the Divine Soul summoned are all within 5 feet of the Divine Soul.

On his turn the Druid casts Mass Cure Wounds healing allies more then 5 feet away because it's the Druid who is within 5 feet of the DS that rolls the spells healing dice.

Next turn the Bard casts Cure Mass Wounds and the DS once again empowers the healing spell because the Bard, not the healing spells, targets are within 5 feet of the DS.

Then it's the DS's turn and they too cast Mass Cure Wounds, empowered healing on it.

Finally the Coautl casts cure wounds and the DS empowers that too.

It's like the DS can use metamagic that doesn't count as metamagic on other peoples healing spells.

[MrCharlie]

Depends. Known spells was never a big issue for me with the Sorc. It’s certainly a boon to have more, but most play styles fit with what they can have available.

The issue I have with the Sorc as a class is everything tracks off the same limited resource: Sorc Points. Second to that is their limited Metamagic selection, however, this ties into their spells known as generally you want to plan spells and Metamagic together to match playstyle.

The new Metamagic Adept feat helps this, to an extent, but everything drawing on Sorc Points still limits what a Sorc can do: if they’re using SP for more slots to flex those new spells known muscles, great; but that’s less Metamagic available. Likewise, if using SP (and canabolizing spell slots perhaps) for Metamagic uses, you’ll have spells known that aren’t being used due to limited casting.

This is why I believe the new subclasses, while powerful, don’t really change how the old ones will be used: DS is still probably the best buffer, Draconic the best blaster, Wild still has its unique schtick. Shadow still does it’s bit better than the new ones (darkness and the hound effects).

CS is closer to being a Wizard, but Wizard still wins out in terms of versatility. It’s nice having some versatility AND Metamagic, though, to an extent, Wizards can grab that with Metamagic Adept as well.

Again, I understand why people like the new subclasses, I just don’t feel they tread on the old ones: they offer new and different play styles for a class of specialization.
I think the main thing that contradicts this in practice is that not every sorcerer player knows how to pick spells. Sure, you can use your anemic spells known effectively if you know precisely what is good given your metamagic and class features (and even then, you won't have every single spell you want), but if you don't know the meta you can screw yourself effortlessly. This is, to a degree, true for so many classes-but for sorcerers the trap options include "Every using sorcery points for spell slots" and "Assuming that a metamagic is actually good just because it's on the list" which are huge, huge problems.

The fact that so much of the base sorcerer class is borderline non-functional unless you specialize in it is the problem, not that it uses one resource. So do wizards-everything keys off of spell slots, basically. It's just that it's hard to truly screw up a wizard.

The new archetypes fix this by strongly guiding the player to a specific playstyle and giving them built in tools and saying "This is what you are good at, do this". Abberant gets subtle spellcasting and a bunch of spells which are great with it. Clockwork gets support abilities and a bunch of buff and defensive spells which are easy to use. The new archetypes are pre-built for the player, and one could be a moderately effective example of that archetype with just the class features and spell list it gives you. Further bonuses can be used to specialize or optimize, but it's very much not a trap, in addition to unlocking new options entirely from the expanded spell list.

[Gyor]

I agree that power wise all the Sorcerer subclasses are within range of each other, within their sphere, it's just that the extra spells know for the TCoE subclasses erecks the versatility balance, not the power balance. It's still the Shadow Sorcerer that would make enemies crap their pants when the Sorcerer casts Darkness using SPs, starts summoning howling Hounds of I'll Omen (no consentration requirement while teleporting around the Darkness they summoned in Umbral Form casting disadvantage on enemies that can't see the Sorcerer.

Also note that people focus on the Hound of Ill Omen's granting a Heighten Spell effect for spells targeting the Hounds target (not just one spell, but all of them that you cast at the target), but Hound is straight up better then that. It isn't a spell, but it's a summoned creature that doesn't require concentration, that gets temp HPs, can track the target no matter where the target is or how visible they are/aren't, can knock down a target it hits, acts as a meat shield, can take opportunity attacks against it's target and can be enhanced with spells like Haste, Polymorph, ect... The Syngeries between the Shadow Sorcerers features are huge.

The Divine Soul in some ways is a better Cleric then the Cleric, and should be compared to other Divine casters like clerics not Arcane Spell Casters like other Sorcerers or Wizards/Warlocks IMHO. Extend Spell on Spirit Guardians, Conjure Celestial, Aid, Guardian of Faith, Summon Celestial, Spirit Shroud, ect... Can be very powerful. Twinned Spell Resurrection, Command, Heal, Lesser/Greater Restoration, Deathward, Guided Bolt, ect...

And with flexible magic the 20th level DS who gets 2 short rests can create almost as many Zombies as a Necromancer Wizard, more then the Necromancer with as many Short Rests as the DS wants. The DS create more 5th level spell slots to cast Summon Celestial. The DS can burn all its lower spell slots and just crank out Mass Cure Wounds like crazy. The DS can just out cast the Cleric and can end up with more cleric cantrips then the cleric.

There is a reason the only minion creating spells a regular Sorcerer gets are Animate Objects and Finger of Death, form necromancy it's flexible casting, for conjuration it's Extend Spell.

Also Favour of the Gods works against spells that require a save yes, but maintaining Concentration is also a save and Sorcerers already get Con Save Prof, so maintaining concentration on Spirit Guardians/Conjure Celestial/Summon Celestial is much easier for the Divine Soul then the Cleric.

And every time they add new spells to clerics and sorcerers the DS's options grew greater.

I still agree that all Sorcerer Subclasses should get bonus subclass spells, but that is too balance versatility not power.

To be fair the TCoE Sorcerer Subclasses are powerful too, a Aberrant Sorcerer can better then sublte spell cast an Extended Summon Aberrants for all of 5 spell points.

[Dark.Revenant]

I needed to hop back into the thread just demolish this notion that 10 bonus spells known that can come from any of 3 spell lists and are MUTABLE being worth half a feat.


If you have 10 spells known (a 9th level sorcerer) and you think of them as a type of tool that has a specific use for a given scenario and you literally double the number of tools you have at your disposal and the number of metamagic interactions you have available on a fullcaster, considering that half a feat is grounds for dismissal of your analysis on the topic entirely. To think as such demonstrates either, a lack of experience as a sorcerer player to understand why having 10 extra spells is a gigantic boon and/or a lack of D&D white rooming abilities to understand how literally doubling your number of tools is almost a doubling of your character's potential because you now interact with twice as many situations in an optimal way.

I can't believe that this weighting is even being given the time of day...

Comparing it to feats like Ritual Caster is also a flawed premise; it's not Ritual Caster because these spells don't have a 10 minute casting time...

The closest examples we have are (with subjective "scores" for each feature):

Aberrant Dragonmark [2.75]

+1 Con [0.8]
+1 class cantrip known [0.75]
+1 class 1st-level spell known, plus bonus slot per short rest, plus THP or damage rider (per short rest); may use own slots if on class list [1.2]

Artificer Initiate [1.5]

+1 class cantrip known [0.75]
+1 class 1st-level spell known, plus bonus slot; may use own slots [0.5]
+1 artisan's tools proficiency, plus spellcasting focus use [0.25]

Drow High Magic [2.65]

Race-locked [-0.25]
+1 specific situational 3rd-level spell known, plus at-will casting; may use own slots if on class list [1.45]
+1 specific 2nd-level spell known, plus bonus slot; may use own slots if on class list [0.55]
+1 specific 3rd-level spell known, plus bonus slot; may use own slots if on class list [0.9]

Fey Teleportation [1.7]

Race-locked [-0.25]
+1 Int or Cha [0.9]
+1 specific language [0.15]
+1 specific 2nd-level spell known, plus bonus slot per short rest; may use own slots if on class list [0.9]

Fey Touched [2.1]

+1 Int, Wis, or Cha [0.95]
+1 specific 2nd-level spell known, plus bonus slot; may use own slots [0.65]
+1 restricted 1st-level spell known, plus bonus slot; may use own slots [0.5]

Magic Initiate [1.95]

+2 class cantrips known [1.5]
+1 class 1st-level spell known, plus bonus slot; may use own slots if on class list [0.45]

Shadow Touched [2.1]

+1 Int, Wis, or Cha [0.95]
+1 specific 2nd-level spell known, plus bonus slot; may use own slots [0.65]
+1 restricted 1st-level spell known, plus bonus slot; may use own slots [0.5]

Spell Sniper [2]

Doubled range on attack-roll spells [0.5]
Ignore cover on ranged spell attacks [0.75]
+1 restricted cantrip known [0.75]

Svirfneblin Magic [1.85]

Race-locked [-0.25]
+1 modified specific situational 3rd-level spell known, plus at-will casting [1.2]
+1 specific 1st-level spell known, plus bonus slot [0.25]
+1 specific 2nd-level spell known, plus bonus slot [0.4]
+1 specific situational 2nd-level spell known, plus bonus slot [0.25]

Telekinetic [2.2]

+1 Int, Wis, or Cha [0.95]
+1 buffed specific situational cantrip known, or increased buff if already known [0.5]
At-will ranged shoving [0.75]

Telepathic [2.05]

+1 Int, Wis, or Cha [0.95]
At-will 60 ft. one-way telepathy [0.5]
+1 buffed specific situational 2nd-level spell known, plus bonus slot; may use own slots [0.6]

Wood Elf Magic [1.4]

Race-locked [-0.25]
+1 class cantrip known [0.75]
+1 specific 1st-level spell known, plus bonus slot; may use own slots if on class list [0.35]
+1 specific 2nd-level spell known, plus bonus slot; may use own slots if on class list [0.55]

The average feat (from the above list) is worth about 2 with this scale. If the Aberrant Mind's feature was a feat, it would be something like this:

Psionic Spells [6.4]

+1 specific cantrip known [0.5]
+2 restricted 1st-level spells known; may use own slots [0.5]
+2 restricted 2nd-level spells known; may use own slots [0.8]
+2 restricted 3rd-level spells known; may use own slots [1.3]
+2 restricted 4th-level spells known; may use own slots [1.5]
+2 restricted 5th-level spells known; may use own slots [1.8]

So the feature is worth about 3 feats by 9th level, based on the general power scale of published feats.

[Gyor]

I think the main thing that contradicts this in practice is that not every sorcerer player knows how to pick spells. Sure, you can use your anemic spells known effectively if you know precisely what is good given your metamagic and class features (and even then, you won't have every single spell you want), but if you don't know the meta you can screw yourself effortlessly. This is, to a degree, true for so many classes-but for sorcerers the trap options include "Every using sorcery points for spell slots" and "Assuming that a metamagic is actually good just because it's on the list" which are huge, huge problems.

The fact that so much of the base sorcerer class is borderline non-functional unless you specialize in it is the problem, not that it uses one resource. So do wizards-everything keys off of spell slots, basically. It's just that it's hard to truly screw up a wizard.

The new archetypes fix this by strongly guiding the player to a specific playstyle and giving them built in tools and saying "This is what you are good at, do this". Abberant gets subtle spellcasting and a bunch of spells which are great with it. Clockwork gets support abilities and a bunch of buff and defensive spells which are easy to use. The new archetypes are pre-built for the player, and one could be a moderately effective example of that archetype with just the class features and spell list it gives you. Further bonuses can be used to specialize or optimize, but it's very much not a trap, in addition to unlocking new options entirely from the expanded spell list.

I agree that Sorcerers aren't a good choice for new players because it's easy to screw yourself if you don't know what spells to pick with what metamagic/subclass.

Like most players don't realize how benifical Distance Spell is to Major Illusion (it's AoE is based on it's Range so by increasing it's Range, you also increase the AoE that you can move your illusion around in). It's worth getting for all Sorcerers.

Extend Spell is better for DS then other Sorcerers, although it's a good pick for TCoE Sorcerers too. Save or Suck spells are great with the Shadow Sorcerer and a higher levels, the Shadow Sorcerer can tank with Umbral Form, so Shadow Blade and Booming Blade can be fun during later levels.

Dragon Blooded Sorcerers want Transmute Spell & Empower Spell and damage spells based on their damage type. Once the Dragon Sorcerer gets their wings Distance Spell can become more useful too.

Wild Sorcerers just want the Feywild Shard from TCoE.

Storm Sorcerer work well with Transmute Spell and the Thunder Step Spell.

Transmute Spell is less useful to Divine Souls, not many creatures resist radiant damage. For the DS you want Twin Spell, Extend Spell, and Quicken Spell. Later on when you can get Geas & Planar Binding, subtle Spell becomes extremely valueable to the Divine Soul, but early on its only really useful with the Command Spell (command someone in a social situation to flee without saying anything).

[Gyor]

How is this for versatility in a Sorcerer.

List of spells (not in order of aquiring them)
1- Major Image
2- Mirror Image
3- Dragon's Breath
4- Cure Wound (trade for Cure Mass Wounds)
5- Revivify
6- Less Restoration (trade for Heal)
7- Aid
8- Animate Dead (trade for Create Undead later)
9- Spirit Guardians
10- Conjure Celestial
11- Spirit Weapon
12- Summon Celestial
13- Guided Bolt
14- Wish
15- Planeshift
16- Dominate Monster

Ritual Caster Spells
1- Find Familiar, Unseen Servant, Detect Magic, Breath Water, Phantom Steed, Leomund's Tiny Hut, ect...

Invocation- Misty Vision (Silent Spell at will).


Twin Spell, Extend Spell, Distance Spell, Quicken Spell, Heighten Spell, Sublte Spell.

Feats: Ritual Caster (Wizard), Metamagic Adept, Eldritch Adept

And at will flight which is better then the Fly Spell.

Good Illusionist, Good Healer, Good at having minions, Some good radiant damage spells (few creatures resist radiant damage), Spirit Weapon can give you attacks with bonus actions and doesn't require concentration, and one powerful dominate spell. Mirror Image is a nice defensive spell that doesn't require concentration. And Wizard Rituals. A spell that can be basically save or die (planeshift an enemy that can't planeshift to either Negative/Positive Energy Plane) or a useful utility spell for travel or spying (planeshift to the border ethereal for spying).

Cast Extended Conjure Celestial for a Coautl that lasts 2 hours and can cast 22 spells, not including 3 it can cast at will, major shape-shifting powers, flight, poison bite, constrict, true sight, telepathy, knows all languages, ect..., fun thing a Couatl can do is shapeshift into a Lycanthrope and both poison and give a target a Lycanthropy (the disease).

[MrCharlie]

I agree that Sorcerers aren't a good choice for new players because it's easy to screw yourself if you don't know what spells to pick with what metamagic/subclass.

Like most players don't realize how benifical Distance Spell is to Major Illusion (it's AoE is based on it's Range so by increasing it's Range, you also increase the AoE that you can move your illusion around in). It's worth getting for all Sorcerers.

Extend Spell is better for DS then other Sorcerers, although it's a good pick for TCoE Sorcerers too. Save or Suck spells are great with the Shadow Sorcerer and a higher levels, the Shadow Sorcerer can tank with Umbral Form, so Shadow Blade and Booming Blade can be fun during later levels.

Dragon Blooded Sorcerers want Transmute Spell & Empower Spell and damage spells based on their damage type. Once the Dragon Sorcerer gets their wings Distance Spell can become more useful too.

Wild Sorcerers just want the Feywild Shard from TCoE.

Storm Sorcerer work well with Transmute Spell and the Thunder Step Spell.

Transmute Spell is less useful to Divine Souls, not many creatures resist radiant damage. For the DS you want Twin Spell, Extend Spell, and Quicken Spell. Later on when you can get Geas & Planar Binding, subtle Spell becomes extremely valueable to the Divine Soul, but early on its only really useful with the Command Spell (command someone in a social situation to flee without saying anything).
I mean, distant spell is not worth getting on all sorcerers-it's worth getting if you get major image. And major image isn't going to be a must pick for all sorcerers.

Transmute spell is also only needed if you don't pick fire damage, in order to ensure you can actually use your damage feature. In general resistance is rare.

I can nit-pick a bunch of other things here, but the point is that you wouldn't know how to judge these abilities, and if they are even useful for your archetype at all, without some in depth knowledge of how spells work and which spells are worth using, and a plan for what this sorcerer is going to use. You obviously have an idea of what sorcerer you want to play, which is why your list is okay. But for a newer player they might even know which metamagic is okay, but not which spells to pair with it. Twin spell is great if you want to buff, for instance, but if you don't? Well, most single target damage spells typically aren't the most effective use of your time, and heighten may be better for debuffing. Subtle is great for social spells and counterspell, but what if your campaign isn't going to deal with those types of situations? Distant spell is incredibly limited in its uses but is rather effective with the one or two spells it is useful for.

Point is, sorcerers are tricky. Playing one that is doing things that other casters can't requires in depth knowledge of rules interactions and how to break them, and without the ability to do things other casters can't-or more spells-you're just a lesser version of them. Draconic is a good example-it's almost categorically inferior to evocation wizard if you just build to blast.

And the other point is that they appear simpler. "Oh, look, it's a wizard who doesen't have to worry about preparing spells and has a more limited list, sign me up!" and while this is superficially true, it's not true if you want to be effective. And this is where a lot of my newer friends feel upstaged by another caster in an arcane heavy party, only you hit the higher tiers.

[Kylar0990]

I mean, distant spell is not worth getting on all sorcerers-it's worth getting if you get major image. And major image isn't going to be a must pick for all sorcerers.

Transmute spell is also only needed if you don't pick fire damage, in order to ensure you can actually use your damage feature. In general resistance is rare.



Transmute spell is good for any sorcerer other than maybe DS. It helps you get around resistance/immunity and possibly lets my target a vulnerability. With the older sub-classes not officially getting bonus spell lists, transmute spell helps your lack of spell versatility still be effective.

[Kane0]

With these extra spells on the table I'm strongly considering my lazy telekinesis-only character concept using Clockwork Soul. It even has a built-in force field at level 6!

[bendking]

That not how Empowered Healing works. The caster, not the recipients of the healing have to be within 5 feet of the Divine Soul for Empowered Healing to be used to enhance the healing spell.

Example a Druid is right beside the Divine Soul on one side and a Bard is on the other side of the Divine Soul, and a Couatl the Divine Soul summoned are all within 5 feet of the Divine Soul.

On his turn the Druid casts Mass Cure Wounds healing allies more then 5 feet away because it's the Druid who is within 5 feet of the DS that rolls the spells healing dice.

Next turn the Bard casts Cure Mass Wounds and the DS once again empowers the healing spell because the Bard, not the healing spells, targets are within 5 feet of the DS.

Then it's the DS's turn and they too cast Mass Cure Wounds, empowered healing on it.

Finally the Coautl casts cure wounds and the DS empowers that too.

It's like the DS can use metamagic that doesn't count as metamagic on other peoples healing spells.

Huh, that may be the correct reading, although it seems you treated it as if you can only do it on other people's spells, and not your own. I would say this becomes a decent feature according to this reading.
It's basically a free healing empower, but it's not as if healing is that strong of a combat strategy in the first place unless you take a level of Life Cleric. In addition, there aren't that many mass healing spells with a lot of dice around that this would be good for. The most notable one is Mass Cure Wounds, but that is a 5th level spell, so this feature only really becomes useful at level 9.


I agree that power wise all the Sorcerer subclasses are within range of each other, within their sphere, it's just that the extra spells know for the TCoE subclasses erecks the versatility balance, not the power balance. It's still the Shadow Sorcerer that would make enemies crap their pants when the Sorcerer casts Darkness using SPs, starts summoning howling Hounds of I'll Omen (no consentration requirement while teleporting around the Darkness they summoned in Umbral Form casting disadvantage on enemies that can't see the Sorcerer.

Also note that people focus on the Hound of Ill Omen's granting a Heighten Spell effect for spells targeting the Hounds target (not just one spell, but all of them that you cast at the target), but Hound is straight up better then that. It isn't a spell, but it's a summoned creature that doesn't require concentration, that gets temp HPs, can track the target no matter where the target is or how visible they are/aren't, can knock down a target it hits, acts as a meat shield, can take opportunity attacks against it's target and can be enhanced with spells like Haste, Polymorph, ect... The Syngeries between the Shadow Sorcerers features are huge.

The Divine Soul in some ways is a better Cleric then the Cleric, and should be compared to other Divine casters like clerics not Arcane Spell Casters like other Sorcerers or Wizards/Warlocks IMHO. Extend Spell on Spirit Guardians, Conjure Celestial, Aid, Guardian of Faith, Summon Celestial, Spirit Shroud, ect... Can be very powerful. Twinned Spell Resurrection, Command, Heal, Lesser/Greater Restoration, Deathward, Guided Bolt, ect...

And with flexible magic the 20th level DS who gets 2 short rests can create almost as many Zombies as a Necromancer Wizard, more then the Necromancer with as many Short Rests as the DS wants. The DS create more 5th level spell slots to cast Summon Celestial. The DS can burn all its lower spell slots and just crank out Mass Cure Wounds like crazy. The DS can just out cast the Cleric and can end up with more cleric cantrips then the cleric.

There is a reason the only minion creating spells a regular Sorcerer gets are Animate Objects and Finger of Death, form necromancy it's flexible casting, for conjuration it's Extend Spell.

Also Favour of the Gods works against spells that require a save yes, but maintaining Concentration is also a save and Sorcerers already get Con Save Prof, so maintaining concentration on Spirit Guardians/Conjure Celestial/Summon Celestial is much easier for the Divine Soul then the Cleric.

And every time they add new spells to clerics and sorcerers the DS's options grew greater.

I still agree that all Sorcerer Subclasses should get bonus subclass spells, but that is too balance versatility not power.

To be fair the TCoE Sorcerer Subclasses are powerful too, a Aberrant Sorcerer can better then sublte spell cast an Extended Summon Aberrants for all of 5 spell points.

I agree: the issue is not that the new subclasses tread on a previously trodden territory, it's that they do their schtick well and are way more versatile than the previous subclasses, which makes them cast optimally in more situations and have more answers.
That said, Clockwork Soul getting Wall of Force on their list (in addition to a bunch of other spell-taxes) is straight-up power creep, which makes me think they might just be THE strongest Sorcerer overall.


With these extra spells on the table I'm strongly considering my lazy telekinesis-only character concept using Clockwork Soul. It even has a built-in force field at level 6!

I would strongly recommend Wild Magic Sorcerer for a TK only build if your DM will let you trigger wild surge on every leveled spell. That way you can get advantage on the TK check every turn by quickening a spell and then channeling TK with Tides of Chaos.

[Kane0]

I would strongly recommend Wild Magic Sorcerer for a TK only build if your DM will let you trigger wild surge on every leveled spell. That way you can get advantage on the TK check every turn by quickening a spell and then channeling TK with Tides of Chaos.

No thanks. The concept is that the guy can only do telekinesis, and it comes to him so naturally that he uses it at every opportunity instead of any manual work. Randomly turning purple or whatever would ruin that.

That and there is very little wiggle room for thematic, nice-to-have spells like Earthbind and Knock plus getting access to Wall of Force and Freedom of Movement which play nicely with the concept.

[Gyor]

Huh, that may be the correct reading, although it seems you treated it as if you can only do it on other people's spells, and not your own. I would say this becomes a decent feature according to this reading.
It's basically a free healing empower, but it's not as if healing is that strong of a combat strategy in the first place unless you take a level of Life Cleric. In addition, there aren't that many mass healing spells with a lot of dice around that this would be good for. The most notable one is Mass Cure Wounds, but that is a 5th level spell, so this feature only really becomes useful at level 9.



I agree: the issue is not that the new subclasses tread on a previously trodden territory, it's that they do their schtick well and are way more versatile than the previous subclasses, which makes them cast optimally in more situations and have more answers.
That said, Clockwork Soul getting Wall of Force on their list (in addition to a bunch of other spell-taxes) is straight-up power creep, which makes me think they might just be THE strongest Sorcerer overall.



I would strongly recommend Wild Magic Sorcerer for a TK only build if your DM will let you trigger wild surge on every leveled spell. That way you can get advantage on the TK check every turn by quickening a spell and then channeling TK with Tides of Chaos.

A Shadow Sorcerer will still kill a Clockwork Sorcerer all other things being equal, even if the Shadow Sorcerer has to drop the Hounds of Ill Omen from the sky right on top of them.

And a Divine Soul can cast Summon Celestial (avenger), cast Aid to buff it and then fly away to let the Celestial kill the CS at extreme range.

[bendking]

A Shadow Sorcerer will still kill a Clockwork Sorcerer all other things being equal, even if the Shadow Sorcerer has to drop the Hounds of Ill Omen from the sky right on top of them.

And a Divine Soul can cast Summon Celestial (avenger), cast Aid to buff it and then fly away to let the Celestial kill the CS at extreme range.

This is not a good way to measure subclass strength.

[RSP]

I think the main thing that contradicts this in practice is that not every sorcerer player knows how to pick spells. Sure, you can use your anemic spells known effectively if you know precisely what is good given your metamagic and class features (and even then, you won't have every single spell you want), but if you don't know the meta you can screw yourself effortlessly. This is, to a degree, true for so many classes-but for sorcerers the trap options include "Every using sorcery points for spell slots" and "Assuming that a metamagic is actually good just because it's on the list" which are huge, huge problems.

The fact that so much of the base sorcerer class is borderline non-functional unless you specialize in it is the problem, not that it uses one resource. So do wizards-everything keys off of spell slots, basically. It's just that it's hard to truly screw up a wizard.

The new archetypes fix this by strongly guiding the player to a specific playstyle and giving them built in tools and saying "This is what you are good at, do this". Abberant gets subtle spellcasting and a bunch of spells which are great with it. Clockwork gets support abilities and a bunch of buff and defensive spells which are easy to use. The new archetypes are pre-built for the player, and one could be a moderately effective example of that archetype with just the class features and spell list it gives you. Further bonuses can be used to specialize or optimize, but it's very much not a trap, in addition to unlocking new options entirely from the expanded spell list.

Sorc, with Warlock, are probably the two worst classes for beginners to pick as the mechanics of the classes lend themselves to having more system mastery.

I’m not overly concerned with the topic of “what’s the best pick for a new player”, though. As discussed, I’m focusing on whether the new subclasses make the older ones obsolete; which I don’t believe they do.

My point on focusing on SPs as a limiting factor for the class and all subclasses holds: it, to a significant degree, limits versatility, and the class mechanics are set around SP to reinforce the “specialist over generalist” feel.

I don’t know if playing either of the new subclasses would help this: sure a CS or AM has the ability to have more spells known than a Draconic, but if a beginner player is only interested in doing damage, the features of CS/AM might feel akin to ribbons. As they learn the game and other options, they may well conclude Draconic is the best subclass [because it fits their playstyle and reinforces that which they care about].

[bendking]

Sorc, with Warlock, are probably the two worst classes for beginners to pick as the mechanics of the classes lend themselves to having more system mastery.

I’m not overly concerned with the topic of “what’s the best pick for a new player”, though. As discussed, I’m focusing on whether the new subclasses make the older ones obsolete; which I don’t believe they do.

My point on focusing on SPs as a limiting factor for the class and all subclasses holds: it, to a significant degree, limits versatility, and the class mechanics are set around SP to reinforce the “specialist over generalist” feel.

I don’t know if playing either of the new subclasses would help this: sure a CS or AM has the ability to have more spells known than a Draconic, but if a beginner player is only interested in doing damage, the features of CS/AM might feel akin to ribbons. As they learn the game and other options, they may well conclude Draconic is the best subclass [because it fits their playstyle and reinforces that which they care about].

The point is not whether Draconic is still the best blaster, because it obviously is. The issue is overall power level and versatility, in which the new subclasses far surpass the old ones in my opinion because:
A. Their features besides the bonus spell list are about as good at reinforcing their playstyle as well as the old subclasses feats (which is what I argued in my original post).
B. They have a massive bonus spell list which makes them ~66% more versatile.

[RSP]

The point is not whether Draconic is still the best blaster, because it obviously is. The issue is overall power level and versatility, in which the new subclasses far surpass the old ones in my opinion because:
A. Their features besides the bonus spell list are about as good at reinforcing their playstyle as well as the old subclasses feats (which is what I argued in my original post).
B. They have a massive bonus spell list which makes them ~66% more versatile.

You seem to be overly interested in convincing me of your beliefs. As I previously posted, the subclasses are on the powerful side, but the Sorc class, as a whole, is designed for specialization; so I’m not sure “being more versatile” does much on the subclasses.

Overall, the Wizard will still be more versatile, so if that’s what you’re after in a PC, you’ll probably want a Wizard over a Sorc anyway. If you want a Sorc that has more spell choices, go CS. If you want a blaster, go Draconic. If you want some powerful, but random, effects, go WM. Like using the Cleric list with Metamagic? Then go DS.

It’ll still come down to what the Player is looking for and in that sense, these subclasses are just as good as the others. Wizard, and Bard to an extent, will still be better for those that prefer versatility. Sorc will be there for those that prefer specialization.

[TheUser]

You seem to be overly interested in convincing me of your beliefs. As I previously posted, the subclasses are on the powerful side, but the Sorc class, as a whole, is designed for specialization; so I’m not sure “being more versatile” does much on the subclasses.



I am. Because it's literally double the versatility from levels 1 through 9.

If sorcerers are designed for specialization as you claim you don't see how letting them be versatile is a "have your cake and eat it too" subclass vs the others who get the shaft?

Edit: combined with the new metamagic feat they literally specialize in twice as wide a spectrum lol

[Mitchellnotes]

You seem to be overly interested in convincing me of your beliefs. As I previously posted, the subclasses are on the powerful side, but the Sorc class, as a whole, is designed for specialization; so I’m not sure “being more versatile” does much on the subclasses.

Overall, the Wizard will still be more versatile, so if that’s what you’re after in a PC, you’ll probably want a Wizard over a Sorc anyway. If you want a Sorc that has more spell choices, go CS. If you want a blaster, go Draconic. If you want some powerful, but random, effects, go WM. Like using the Cleric list with Metamagic? Then go DS.

It’ll still come down to what the Player is looking for and in that sense, these subclasses are just as good as the others. Wizard, and Bard to an extent, will still be better for those that prefer versatility. Sorc will be there for those that prefer specialization.

I have to agree with TheUser here. Sorcerer as a class has a powerful but focused chassis. If the Sorc had the spell selection of a wizard, would you play a wizard? Possibly, but the main draw would be ritual casting or some of what the subclasses could bring. The new subclasses, between the additional number of sprlls known AND the ability to poach (from certain schools) from a broad array of lists simply breaks the major factor that keeps the sorc in check - limited # of spells known and more limited array of options when compared to a wizard.

[Kane0]

Perhaps WotC also realized that a party typically wont have both a sorcerer and wizard, and so isnt so concerned about handing over the extra spells now.

[SharkForce]

versatility is a form of power. an increase in versatility is, therefore, an increase in power; it is not necessarily as large of one as a direct increase in power, since for example doubling the damage of a fireball makes it stronger in the best case scenario while doubling the number of damage types a fireball can do only allows it to keep its base strength in more scenarios, but the fact remains that you are more likely to have a spell that is a good fit for the situation you encounter when you have access to more spells known and a broader spell list. the sorcerer that previously might have had to rely on wall of stone to trap enemies can pick up wall of force that doesn't allow a saving throw and can't be destroyed without specialized tools, for example. the sorcerer that previously had to choose between suggestion and mass suggestion can now have the option to cast a level 2 spell when they want to save resources, leaving their level 6 slots for more important things. and so on, and so forth... all these little things lead to the sorcerer's primary ability (spellcasting) and their abilities that support that (mainly metamagic) being better in more situations. they are less likely to be forced to remind themselves that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, because now they can actually have a hammer, a selection of screwdrivers, wrenches, a saw, pliers, and maybe even a socket set. situations where they previously would have been left to either contribute at a lower level or not at all are replaced with situations where they contribute at a high level.

and frankly, some of those new tools are probably more likely to be useful anyways. I mean, yes, a draconic sorcerer will do more damage with their chosen element... but let's not kid ourselves, ~30 points of damage in an area doesn't stay super relevant for very long. it's amazing when you first get it, and never becomes fully obsolete, but when you start facing enemies with 150 hit points it really starts losing its shine, especially when you don't have the evoker's ability to avoid hitting allies that are mixed in with the enemies. the shadow hound is an incredibly strong ability, but when you start fighting enemies that can kill it with half of their action and it stops being a reliable source of disadvantage on saves every round, it may not ever become a *bad* ability, but it certainly doesn't feel like it's as good as it used to be. but more spells... that's pretty much never going to go out of style.

[RSP]

I am. Because it's literally double the versatility from levels 1 through 9.

If sorcerers are designed for specialization as you claim you don't see how letting them be versatile is a "have your cake and eat it too" subclass vs the others who get the shaft?

Edit: combined with the new metamagic feat they literally specialize in twice as wide a spectrum lol

As it apparently matters, what specifically are you trying to convince me of? That the CS is more versatile than the other subclasses?

[bendking]

You seem to be overly interested in convincing me of your beliefs.

As it apparently matters, what specifically are you trying to convince me of?

You seem overly convinced that people care what you think.
Have you considered the possibility that people on this forum, and in this thread specifically, simply enjoy discussing class balance and optimization?

Anyway, I think it's obvious that CS is more versatile, and as was stated by multiple people in this thread already - versatility is a form of power.

[TheUser]

As it apparently matters, what specifically are you trying to convince me of? That the CS is more versatile than the other subclasses?


perhaps I was unclear... your last sentence was:


so I’m not sure “being more versatile” does much on the subclasses.

my reply was that "I am sure" what being more versatile does to the subclasses.

It doubles the range of problems they can optimally engage with... If you can't see how that as a tremendous boost then I don't think I can do much to persuade you, as the inherent "power" that presents seems so obvious to me that to break it down further feels like a call back to a Homer Simpson dialogue with Doctor Hibert regarding open heart surgery....

[RSP]

You seem overly convinced that people care what you think.

You were quoting my opinion, and trying to tell me how my opinion is wrong. That, to me, makes it seem like you’re trying to convince me.



Have you considered the possibility that people on this forum, and in this thread specifically, simply enjoy discussing class balance and optimization?

That, amazingly, is what I’ve been doing right here on this forum.


my reply was that "I am sure" what being more versatile does to the subclasses.

It doubles the range of problems they can optimally engage with... If you can't see how that as a tremendous boost then I don't think I can do much to persuade you, as the inherent "power" that presents seems so obvious to me that to break it down further feels like a call back to a Homer Simpson dialogue with Doctor Hibert regarding open heart surgery....

Just to be clear, here was my first post:


With Sorc, particularly, it’s difficult to compare subclasses: the class as a whole is about specializing, and the subclasses fall in line with that. So, comparing DS to Draconic, is like comparing clerics and fighters: they’re designed to do different things.

If you want to play a blaster, play draconic. If you want Cleric spells, play DS.

The new subclasses are probably “better” than the old ones, if just comparing abilities on GitP forums, but, if you’re looking at how you want to play, each can excel in certain styles.

I’m not arguing whether CS is more versatile than the other subclasses. I’m saying, with how the class is designed, it’s a class that focuses on specialization.

Is it nice to have more versatility? Sure and the CS may be able to be a Subtle out-of-combat caster some days, and others a buffer, which is nice, but if versatility is what you want, other classes will do that better than the Sorc.

Where the Sorc shines is in what it can do as a specialist. And in that regard, the subclasses that emphasize those specialties are still valid in those ways (that is, they aren’t overshadowed by the new subclasses).

So yes, if you want to play a versatile Sorc, CS is fine, though, in my opinion, other classes still do “versatile caster” better than CS Sorc. However, other classes don’t do what a specialized Sorc can do.

Hopefully that better explains my point of view, if it was in question. If you think I was saying the CS isn’t more versatile, I wasn’t (as I stated in that earlier post). I was staying the value of that doesn’t mean as much on a class that specializes.

Obviously, these are just my opinions, though.

[samcifer]

I say we take each suc-class for sorcs, make up a list of bonus spells that at least 50%of us agree on, send it to WotC as a petition and end all the pointless arguing and flame wars on here.

[micahaphone]

end all the pointless arguing and flame wars on here.


But what else am I going to do with my time?

[samcifer]

...learn to knit? (Helpless shrug)

[Gyor]

You were quoting my opinion, and trying to tell me how my opinion is wrong. That, to me, makes it seem like you’re trying to convince me.



That, amazingly, is what I’ve been doing right here on this forum.



Just to be clear, here was my first post:



I’m not arguing whether CS is more versatile than the other subclasses. I’m saying, with how the class is designed, it’s a class that focuses on specialization.

Is it nice to have more versatility? Sure and the CS may be able to be a Subtle out-of-combat caster some days, and others a buffer, which is nice, but if versatility is what you want, other classes will do that better than the Sorc.

Where the Sorc shines is in what it can do as a specialist. And in that regard, the subclasses that emphasize those specialties are still valid in those ways (that is, they aren’t overshadowed by the new subclasses).

So yes, if you want to play a versatile Sorc, CS is fine, though, in my opinion, other classes still do “versatile caster” better than CS Sorc. However, other classes don’t do what a specialized Sorc can do.

Hopefully that better explains my point of view, if it was in question. If you think I was saying the CS isn’t more versatile, I wasn’t (as I stated in that earlier post). I was staying the value of that doesn’t mean as much on a class that specializes.

Obviously, these are just my opinions, though.

I actually think the new Subclasses are more versatile then the Wizard, yes the Wizard has a bigger spell list then Sorcerers, but the AM and CS actually have more spells known then the Wizard has spells prepared and without having to pay the Wizard's tax for getting all these spells, both on gold and down time.

In practice day to day the two Sorcerer subclasses are going to have greater versatility then the Wizard, with enough time maybe the Wizard can out prepare for specific challenges, but only if they have enough knowledge about what to expect before hand.

[Ouroburrito]

Sorry if I do something wrong, this is my first post on the site.

I read through the thread here and I have to say, some of the contributors seem like armchair sorcerers. By that I mean I get the (possibly false) impression that they themselves have never played a sorcerer, at least not in a campaign. One shots and such don’t count, because in those, you as a player only have to face a FEW situations, so your handful of spells known can- hopefully- cover them.

I’m currently a year and a half into a 4 player campaign. We’re almost to tier 3, and my DS sorcerer is the only real spell caster in the party of three martials (one of them knows some 1st level spells). Until TCoE, I was primarily a buffer, healer, and occasional “protector” with Counterspell. I built my character to have as many spells as possible, and even with that, we’ve been in so many circumstances where I’ve felt like my spells weren’t able to contribute anything. Specifically, my DM let me take Drow High Magic, and I play a DMG aasimar because it nets me 3 extra spells (light, calm emotions instead of lesser restoration, and daylight). I also just grabbed the shadow touched feat (invisibility and silent image) when we leveled up. I also dipped a level in cleric for versatility, and cause I could make it happen with the stats. I also got an extra metamagic at level 7 that the DM offered. Finally, my DM agreed at the outset to let me use spell points, since I was the group’s only main caster anyway, and they thought the spell points system made intuitive sense for a sorcerer.

All this to say, my character has a strong theme as an angelic officer of the law, and even after nearlY doubling my number of spells known, AND having access to a handful of 1st level cleric spells each day, I STILL felt so pigeonholed. Each spell choice boiled down to “Will this spell see enough significant use To warrant the precious spot on my list?” No room for niche/for fun spells. It was all business.

When TCoE subclasses releases with the absurd +10 to spells known, I begged my DM, who let me majorly move some things around. Next time we play I will be wielding seven new spells, from a Ten-spells-strong divine soul origin spell list we made together. DM let me shift my racial spells to this list and change my sub race to protector, so now I’ll have once daily wings and extra radiant Damage, plus Healing Hands (will save some spell points on healing spells).

I’m giddy with excitement about the spells page on my character sheet now. I have SO MANY MORE SPELLS, and before even having used any of them, I can tell how much more useful I’m gonna be. If this thread stays alive for the next week, I’ll post an update after we play.

Bottom line: if you don’t think 10 extra spells known is a MASSIVE power boost for sorcerers, you don’t understand them as a class. And you’re wrong.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Sorry if I do something wrong, this is my first post on the site.

I read through the thread here and I have to say, some of the contributors seem like armchair sorcerers. By that I mean I get the (possibly false) impression that they themselves have never played a sorcerer, at least not in a campaign. One shots and such don’t count, because in those, you as a player only have to face a FEW situations, so your handful of spells known can- hopefully- cover them.

I’m currently a year and a half into a 4 player campaign. We’re almost to tier 3, and my DS sorcerer is the only real spell caster in the party of three martials (one of them knows some 1st level spells). Until TCoE, I was primarily a buffer, healer, and occasional “protector” with Counterspell. I built my character to have as many spells as possible, and even with that, we’ve been in so many circumstances where I’ve felt like my spells weren’t able to contribute anything. Specifically, my DM let me take Drow High Magic, and I play a DMG aasimar because it nets me 3 extra spells (light, calm emotions instead of lesser restoration, and daylight). I also just grabbed the shadow touched feat (invisibility and silent image) when we leveled up. I also dipped a level in cleric for versatility, and cause I could make it happen with the stats. I also got an extra metamagic at level 7 that the DM offered. Finally, my DM agreed at the outset to let me use spell points, since I was the group’s only main caster anyway, and they thought the spell points system made intuitive sense for a sorcerer.

All this to say, my character has a strong theme as an angelic officer of the law, and even after nearlY doubling my number of spells known, AND having access to a handful of 1st level cleric spells each day, I STILL felt so pigeonholed. Each spell choice boiled down to “Will this spell see enough significant use To warrant the precious spot on my list?” No room for niche/for fun spells. It was all business.

When TCoE subclasses releases with the absurd +10 to spells known, I begged my DM, who let me majorly move some things around. Next time we play I will be wielding seven new spells, from a Ten-spells-strong divine soul origin spell list we made together. DM let me shift my racial spells to this list and change my sub race to protector, so now I’ll have once daily wings and extra radiant Damage, plus Healing Hands (will save some spell points on healing spells).

I’m giddy with excitement about the spells page on my character sheet now. I have SO MANY MORE SPELLS, and before even having used any of them, I can tell how much more useful I’m gonna be. If this thread stays alive for the next week, I’ll post an update after we play.

Bottom line: if you don’t think 10 extra spells known is a MASSIVE power boost for sorcerers, you don’t understand them as a class. And you’re wrong.

The PHB sorcerer is definitely not the class to play if you are the only caster. Just finished a 5 player campaign with a Cleric, Bard, Paladin, and Rogue. As the Draconic Sorcerer I just had to be the blaster and one of the faces. Anything else I accomplished was just gravy.

[Kane0]

The PHB sorcerer is definitely not the class to play if you are the only caster. Just finished a 5 player campaign with a Cleric, Bard, Paladin, and Rogue. As the Draconic Sorcerer I just had to be the blaster and one of the faces. Anything else I accomplished was just gravy.

Could you say the same thing about any other full caster?
Sorcerer to me sounds like the only fullcaster that makes one say ‘i should really pick something else’ if you’re the only full caster in the party.

Edit: I suppose Bard comes close?

[MaxWilson]

Could you say the same thing about any other full caster?
Sorcerer to me sounds like the only fullcaster that makes one say ‘i should really pick something else’ if you’re the only full caster in the party.

Edit: I suppose Bard comes close?

Moon or Shepherd or even Land Druid works pretty well as the only caster. Enough healing, enough AoE, enough transport, enough summoning for clutch situations.

[Skylivedk]

Could you say the same thing about any other full caster?
Sorcerer to me sounds like the only fullcaster that makes one say ‘i should really pick something else’ if you’re the only full caster in the party.

Edit: I suppose Bard comes close?

Depends on level and composition of non-casters. A Bard should be able to add plenty to a martial heavy group. I think the Warlock is a good candidate in some parties.


Moon or Shepherd or even Land Druid works pretty well as the only caster. Enough healing, enough AoE, enough transport, enough summoning for clutch situations.

My reading of Kane0 is the opposite: that it is only the Sorcerer that's a concern as a full caster.

As for the versatile vs. specialized debate: as of now, the cost of being a focused blaster Sorcerer seems overly steep. To me it is obviously Gloomstalker the Sorcerer Edition we are witnessing here. I am fully for it, I would just like them to do it retroactively as well... And I don't know if 5 or 10 spells would be best. Anyway, I'm happy to see WotC move towards greater customization and player choice.

[Mr Adventurer]

Sure, you have Misty Visions, but it still has verbal and somatic components; you can cast Silent Image at will, and while onlookers won't know for certain it's an illusion, they will know you have cast a spell. Testing if it's an illusion after seeing a wall sprout up from nowhere isn't out of the question (or at least compelling an investigation check). So it's hardly an in-combat option imho.

Slight aside, but do you often have NPCs or your PCs spend their action in combat to investigate things that appear?

Wall of Stone is a spell, for example.

[TheUser]

Slight aside, but do you often have NPCs or your PCs spend their action in combat to investigate things that appear?

Wall of Stone is a spell, for example.

EDIT bear in mind this was all started with an illusory wall of stone cropping up.

A wall of stone appears; the first thing enemies do is interact with it by trying to break through it, or maybe touch it to see if it causes them harm to attack it. Afterall, a real wall of stone spell is destructible and nobody would bat an eye if enemies began whacking at one to try and tear it down should it pop up in front of them.

Whereas if a caster uses an illusion spell as they turn a corner (edit: out of sight of enemies) pressing themself against a wall and making the room appear 1ft skinnier with a new illusory wall covering them then the enemies, if unfamiliar with the terrain, can think the caster teleported away or went invisible. They now move on to a threat that is more pressing (the fighter murdering everyone) and the wizard has gotten use out of the spell.

The best time to manifest illusions in combat is out of sight of the enemies. Phantasmal force being the one exception, but even then your phantasm might need to blind and deafen your target else their comrades make statements that would elicit an investigation check:
"What are you doing? Stop flailing around! It's all in your head you fool!" Etc.


Just because a player decides to attempt a poor illusion (like a wall cropping up in their sight out of nowhere) and a DM doesn't placate that player by having enemies act outside their normal parameters doesn't make illusions bad; the player must be mindful of how might an enemy attempt to deal with this problem were it to crop up and the enemy knows a spell has just been cast (except the low int mindless monsters of course). A wall of inky black void might dissuade them and be less likely to be attacked for example.

[Mr Adventurer]

EDIT bear in mind this was all started with an illusory wall of stone cropping up.

A wall of stone appears; the first thing enemies do is interact with it by trying to break through it, or maybe touch it to see if it causes them harm to attack it. Afterall, a real wall of stone spell is destructible and nobody would bat an eye if enemies began whacking at one to try and tear it down should it pop up in front of them.

Whereas if a caster uses an illusion spell as they turn a corner (edit: out of sight of enemies) pressing themself against a wall and making the room appear 1ft skinnier with a new illusory wall covering them then the enemies, if unfamiliar with the terrain, can think the caster teleported away or went invisible. They now move on to a threat that is more pressing (the fighter murdering everyone) and the wizard has gotten use out of the spell.

The best time to manifest illusions in combat is out of sight of the enemies. Phantasmal force being the one exception, but even then your phantasm might need to blind and deafen your target else their comrades make statements that would elicit an investigation check:
"What are you doing? Stop flailing around! It's all in your head you fool!" Etc.


Just because a player decides to attempt a poor illusion (like a wall cropping up in their sight out of nowhere) and a DM doesn't placate that player by having enemies act outside their normal parameters doesn't make illusions bad; the player must be mindful of how might an enemy attempt to deal with this problem were it to crop up and the enemy knows a spell has just been cast (except the low int mindless monsters of course). A wall of inky black void might dissuade them and be less likely to be attacked for example.

Sure. Based on the phrasing in your other post, my question was more about when, if ever, anyone has ever used their action to Investigate a real Wall of Stone to see if it's illusory.

And apart from that, depending on the specific situation, though, the enemy might just as well decide not to waste their time smashing on a wall of Stone, if there's something else they could be doing. Nothing indicates one way or the other that that use of the spell is useless, without additional context.

[TheUser]

Sure. Based on the phrasing in your other post, my question was more about when, if ever, anyone has ever used their action to Investigate a real Wall of Stone to see if it's illusory.

And apart from that, depending on the specific situation, though, the enemy might just as well decide not to waste their time smashing on a wall of Stone, if there's something else they could be doing. Nothing indicates one way or the other that that use of the spell is useless, without additional context.

Context is key.

Given that passive investigation is a thing (thanks Observant feat!) I mostly relegate all investigation of illusions to this or at the very least use it as a means to prompt that action. Most investigations that an NPC might use are the "prod it with a stick" method to see if it has substance; at the very least chuck a rock at it from a safe distance. Remember that magic is magic, if you see a stone wall materialize out of nowhere then you have options to consider; if simply touching the magic wall is as easy as spending some additional movement to test its corporealness by pressing against it then I don't see why an NPC/enemy wouldn't do as such. If there are other threats that require an action to deal with the enemy might just switch gears in the heat of the moment. Only a caster NPC or more savvy/experienced combatant with higher int and investigation proficiency would even consider spending their entire action on an investigation check imho as they no doubt not only have experience with such things but also have a chance of succeeding on the determination it is an illusion.

[Mr Adventurer]

Context is key.

Given that passive investigation is a thing (thanks Observant feat!) I mostly relegate all investigation of illusions to this or at the very least use it as a means to prompt that action. Most investigations that an NPC might use are the "prod it with a stick" method to see if it has substance; at the very least chuck a rock at it from a safe distance. Remember that magic is magic, if you see a stone wall materialize out of nowhere then you have options to consider; if simply touching the magic wall is as easy as spending some additional movement to test its corporealness by pressing against it then I don't see why an NPC/enemy wouldn't do as such. If there are other threats that require an action to deal with the enemy might just switch gears in the heat of the moment. Only a caster NPC or more savvy/experienced combatant with higher int and investigation proficiency would even consider spending their entire action on an investigation check imho as they no doubt not only have experience with such things but also have a chance of succeeding on the determination it is an illusion.

Sure. It might be reasonable for them to do any of those things, depending on the context.

Passive Investigation doesn't apply to illusions though, thanks to the specific wording in the spells (typically).

[TheUser]

Sure. It might be reasonable for them to do any of those things, depending on the context.

Passive Investigation doesn't apply to illusions though, thanks to the specific wording in the spells (typically).

"at the very least use it as a means to prompt that action."

Which is to say the (N)PC has a high enough passive investigation to warrant immediate attempts to investigate with an action.

[KorvinStarmast]

Bottom line: if you don’t think 10 extra spells known is a MASSIVE power boost for sorcerers, you don’t understand them as a class. And you’re wrong. Concur; in another thread I had a suggestion for a domain/bonus spell for spell levels 1-5 for each PHB sub class. I'd like to see that, or something like that (there were other suggestions) folded into an errata, but I am pretty sure WoTC won't do that.

[bendking]

Concur; earlier in the thread I had a suggestion for a domain/bonus spell for spell levels 1-5 for each PHB sub class. I'd like to see that, or something like that (there were other suggestions) folded into an errata, but I am pretty sure WoTC won't do that.

I would go as far as adding 10 bonus spells, 2 for each spell level, personally. I actually already have (https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MM7Y5JmaYAZ8xuovecZ).
EDIT: Forgot to mention I built it with @TheUser.

[Mitchellnotes]

Imagine a Dragon Sorc vHuman who takes that invocations feat from Tasha's. They can now cast mage armor at will. (Armor of Shadows). With but a 14 dex at levle 1 they can have AC of 18. :smalleek:

I think this may be double counting some AC... Wouldn't it be Either "mage armor + Dex" or "DS armore + Dex"? I don't think you get to do "mage armor + DS armor + dex" (same how monk and barb unarmored bonuses don't stack)

[KorvinStarmast]

I think this may be double counting some AC... Wouldn't it be Either "mage armor + Dex" or "DS armore + Dex"? I don't think you get to do "mage armor + DS armor + dex" (same how monk and barb unarmored bonuses don't stack) Yeah, that's a problem. There was a sage advice offering clarity on "is it a bonus to AC or is it a way to calculate AC" and it's the latter.

[Ouroburrito]

I would go as far as adding 10 bonus spells, 2 for each spell level, personally. I actually already have.

Hey! My DM and I used your Divine Soul origin spell list as a reference when making one for my character! Thank you!

[Kane0]

My reading of Kane0 is the opposite: that it is only the Sorcerer that's a concern as a full caster.

As for the versatile vs. specialized debate: as of now, the cost of being a focused blaster Sorcerer seems overly steep. To me it is obviously Gloomstalker the Sorcerer Edition we are witnessing here. I am fully for it, I would just like them to do it retroactively as well... And I don't know if 5 or 10 spells would be best. Anyway, I'm happy to see WotC move towards greater customization and player choice.

Yeah.

Sorc seems to the the only ‘specialist’ caster so really feels like the odd one out. I like specialized casters, but D&D 5e doesnt appear to share that preference. Much easier to make it more generalised to match the others than change all the other casters to be more specialized (barring the nominated generalists like school-less wizards, lore bards, etc)

[P. G. Macer]

Imagine a Dragon Sorc vHuman who takes that invocations feat from Tasha's. They can now cast mage armor at will. (Armor of Shadows). With but a 14 dex at levle 1 they can have AC of 18. :smalleek:

AC calculation methods don’t stack. The combo you’re describing is redundant and doesn’t work, as the sorcerer in question’s AC would be 15.

[Gignere]

Bottom line: if you don’t think 10 extra spells known is a MASSIVE power boost for sorcerers, you don’t understand them as a class. And you’re wrong.

Even playing a wizard, when we were away from large cities (where one can buy spells) I found it hard to select two spells per level the wizard get. So I never even considered playing a sorcerer because I know I would have analysis paralysis at level ups just to pick the most perfect spell.

Until now, I think my next caster is going to be one of the two new sorcerers, just because of the expanded spells known.

[bendking]

Hey! My DM and I used your Divine Soul origin spell list as a reference when making one for my character! Thank you!

I'm happy to hear it was of help to someone, so thanks for letting me know :)

[bendking]

Yeah.

Sorc seems to the the only ‘specialist’ caster so really feels like the odd one out. I like specialized casters, but D&D 5e doesnt appear to share that preference. Much easier to make it more generalised to match the others than change all the other casters to be more specialized (barring the nominated generalists like school-less wizards, lore bards, etc)

I don't think Sorcerers being a Specialist caster is a problem. I like that Sorcerer is the odd one out, it's the reason that it's my favorite class.
The issue was that previous Sorcerer subclasses did not compensate for the drawback of this specialization enough. With these new subclasses though, you can specialize to the same level, while being better in situations you would have had sub-optimal solutions to prior, which is great.
I am not confident that adding extra spells known is the best solution to the Sorcerer Problem, but it's not a bad one either. The big issue is that they didn't go far enough by retro-actively giving the previously released subclasses a bonus spell list, thus creating a gross imbalance between Tasha's origins and the previously released origins.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Could you say the same thing about any other full caster?
Sorcerer to me sounds like the only fullcaster that makes one say ‘i should really pick something else’ if you’re the only full caster in the party.

Edit: I suppose Bard comes close?

I played a Light Cleric, and it was pretty versatile. It would be an interesting challenge if you had a group with only one caster. I suppose you'd probably have to focus spells on things not too related to combat under the assumption that the martials had that part mostly under control.

[Gyor]

I played a Light Cleric, and it was pretty versatile. It would be an interesting challenge if you had a group with only one caster. I suppose you'd probably have to focus spells on things not too related to combat under the assumption that the martials had that part mostly under control.

That is what the Ritual Caster Feat: Wizards or Clerics or Druids is for.