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GriffWood
2020-11-29, 05:38 PM
Before asking any questions, I wanted to say hi to everyone. I've been lurking for a couple weeks and recently decided to make an account. It seems like a great community to be apart of and I look forward to hearing everyone's perspectives and advice.

I would love to hear what anyone thinks about wilderness encounters. I'm trying to improve my GMing of journeys and the feeling of being in the wild. I tend to fast forward to combat and social encounters. A couple questions I had were:

1. Where do you draw inspiration? I've been trying to find books that evoke the feeling of the wilderness setting, like Lord of the Rings. I need to get better at narrating the feelings and senses of the environment. Can anyone recommend books with evocative language in a wilderness setting?
2. Does anyone recommend supplement books (any rpg really) that provides good environmental encounters and settings?
3. Maybe I'm not asking the right questions. I would love to just hear from anyone about the topic, their perspectives, or experiences they've had.

Thanks in advance!

Griff

(This is one of my posts that I copied from another site. Sorry, if you're active on both but I thought it would be nice to get perspectives from different communities. I'm not really familiar with the standard etiquette with this so feel free to let me know.)

GentlemanVoodoo
2020-11-29, 11:20 PM
Welcome to the forums GriffWood!

Question 1: On the books as far as language goes, Last of the Mohicans is my go to. Or if your looking for more of a long running collection then anything by W. Michael and Kathleen Gear should work.

Question 2: Personally speaking the environmental books from 3.5 D&D are good ones to look at (Stormwrack, Frostburn, Sandstorm). While they each have some bits with their own lore, overall they are good examples to base adventuring ideas around. If anything they are a good starting point to later adapt your ideas around.

Question 3: In my experience, the wilderness encounters are best for happenings within point A to point B. So a wilderness scene, encounter, etc. should have a point to it for the party to be there. Since you mentioned Lord of the Rings, think then of Sam & Frodo's encounters with the wilderness as they traveled in Mordor. More specifically take when Gollum leads Sam and Frodo to Selob's lair. This was in the Mordor wilderness (caverns) but it was a contributor in Gollum's attempt to get the Ring back. So again the party/players should have a reason to be in the wilderness. With that in mind you will have an easier time building your encounters in the wilderness once you set the end objective.

Mechalich
2020-11-30, 01:10 AM
1. Where do you draw inspiration? I've been trying to find books that evoke the feeling of the wilderness setting, like Lord of the Rings. I need to get better at narrating the feelings and senses of the environment. Can anyone recommend books with evocative language in a wilderness setting?

This sort of thing depends, very critically, on how you're defining 'wilderness.' Specifically on the difference between environments that are not actually inhabited by sapient beings at all, and those that are inhabited, but simply by members of cultures the viewpoint group does not belong to and may have vast cultural gaps relating too.

The first category is broadly limited to extreme environments - like the arctic, particularly hostile deserts, boreal forest, and in some sense the ocean (though that's kind of its own thing). this is likely to be even more limited in a fantasy scenario, which has non-humans or magic-based adaptations to allow life to go on in areas that would not otherwise be habitable. The most obvious version of this is the existence of aquatic sapient species. The minute you add merfolk you just switched the majority of the planet from uninhabited to inhabited at a stroke.

The second category is less about wilderness and more about experiences involving other cultures and how they interact with the environment. This is pretty much what all the classic 19th century travel journals are really about, which gave rise to this somewhat bizarre vaguely Victorian idea present in literature that 'wilderness' was any place insufficiently 'civilized' to match their exacting standards, but even earlier chronicles, like the Travels of Marco Polo, focus more on who he met rather than what weird environmental features he encountered.


2. Does anyone recommend supplement books (any rpg really) that provides good environmental encounters and settings?

In general the environment remains a major source of encounters in its own right only at the lower end of the RPG power scale. D&D, with spells like Create Water and Purify Food and Drink available from Level 1, is a terrible system for making the environment a significant source of challenge. Even when you ban such spells outright, as in Dark Sun, D&D characters are simply too superhuman to worry much about the environment. For example, you can basically ignore all desert survival issues in Dark Sun by the simple expedient of playing a Thri-Kreen. Even exotic envrionments like the Inner and Outer Planes cease to become more than funky-looking backdrops by the mid-levels of D&D.

There are systems and settings built around threatening and only slightly exotic environments. Hollow Earth Expedition is such a game, though it's on the pulpy end of the scale (it really wants you to fight some dinosaurs).


3. Maybe I'm not asking the right questions. I would love to just hear from anyone about the topic, their perspectives, or experiences they've had.

Generally there's a question of why should environmental encounters matter? Basically, what is the purpose of having Man vs. Nature conflict within the story framework of your game? Are your characters brave explorers out to tame the wilderness? Or does the world itself resist the expansion of their kind or perhaps reserve certain territories for certain species/cultures? Or does the hostile surrounding environment reflect the corrupt nature of the evil they must face (this last one's a classic)? Or is the hostile environment a choice offered to the characters, an alternative challenge rather than facing sapient enemies as they try flee, outflank, or outrun some condition?

zarionofarabel
2020-11-30, 04:27 PM
1. Where do you draw inspiration? I've been trying to find books that evoke the feeling of the wilderness setting, like Lord of the Rings. I need to get better at narrating the feelings and senses of the environment. Can anyone recommend books with evocative language in a wilderness setting?

I draw inspiration from my own outdoors experience. I am afraid that I can't recommend books that I have read myself as most fiction I have read skips wilderness travel. I would suggest you look into non-fiction books that feature stories of wilderness survival.



2. Does anyone recommend supplement books (any rpg really) that provides good environmental encounters and settings?

I highly recommend Mouse Guard! Adventures that focus on environmental hazards and wilderness travel is the core of the game. The system is specifically built to have very few combat encounters and instead focuses on the perils of traveling in a hostile environment. Best game I have encountered for running games that focus on such things!

Duff
2020-11-30, 06:37 PM
In general the environment remains a major source of encounters in its own right only at the lower end of the RPG power scale. D&D, with spells like Create Water and Purify Food and Drink available from Level 1, is a terrible system for making the environment a significant source of challenge. Even when you ban such spells outright, as in Dark Sun, D&D characters are simply too superhuman to worry much about the environment. For example, you can basically ignore all desert survival issues in Dark Sun by the simple expedient of playing a Thri-Kreen. Even exotic envrionments like the Inner and Outer Planes cease to become more than funky-looking backdrops by the mid-levels of D&D.


Something which can be evocative is to describe (or have the players describe) how the life saving spells are done.
"As you start breaking camp in the morning, Doris the cleric calls for you to gather around with your waterskins. You gather eagerly, looking forward to the fresh cool water they create because it's much nicer in the morning than it will be after a day in the leather waterskins in the hot sun"
"The chill is starting to bite into you, reminding you all that it's time to recast protection from elements"
"You notice a leach drop from a bush onto George's neck in front of you, before bouncing off, repelled by the "protection from vermin" spell you cast at the start of the day."

GriffWood
2020-12-01, 01:07 PM
Thank you all for your great replies! There are some fantastic tips and good questions posed. I haven't really thought about all of the ways characters in DnD can cast-away environmental challenges but maybe it will let some of those spells shine when they are so often overlooked. I wanted to include wilderness for a couple reasons... I love the outdoors, I want to provide a sense of scale to my players, I want my world to feel real, I want to draw my players to a sense of place

I'll check out some of the books mentioned and try out having the players describe their survival spells. Thanks again!

Democratus
2020-12-01, 03:42 PM
At our table we like the Wilderness to be evocative. A force of its own.

There are places of order and stability. Those are civilization. The bright light on a hill.

Outside the reach of civilization are the wild places. They aren't just full of dangerous things - they are actively opposed to order. They want to kill you. They want to stop order.

You are an alien out in the wilderness braving the active hostility for your own reasons: extend the reach of civilization, seeking fame and fortune, looking for that rare ingredient that can cure your brother, etc.

MrStabby
2020-12-07, 03:27 AM
Wilderness is tough.

The thing that people engage with most is other people. Take people out - both positive and negative - and geting that engagement is hard. Engagement with peopl eisn't just the social side of the game but also the exploration side - true wilderness isn't packed with abandoned temples and ancient cities.

To keep wilderness wild you need the emptyness to be a feature and for your players to engage with the absence of people.

Now how to do that is a bit more of a specific question and may relate more closely to the world and the game system. Is survival supported? If the wilderness a race against time - a wall that must be crossed? Are there solid environmental effects that support fun challenges for the players?


Overall, my instinct is to not overemphasise the wilderness. You can play it up in the setting through description, through its impact on the plot and so on without spending hours with your players wandering the empty desert. In this one case, tell don't show. The wilderness isn't the most exciting setting to actually be in, but its presence as a force in the world that can be talked about can be a big deal.

Vahnavoi
2020-12-07, 06:15 AM
1) I draw my inspiration from my actual outdoors experience. As far as fiction goes, I'd suggest watching Long Way North (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Way_North), the Red Turtle (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_Turtle) and a whole lot of nature documentaries. For literature, I'd recommend Jack London and maybe non-fiction of race to the arctic. Of video games, play Unreal World (http://www.unrealworld.fi/) or Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild.

Fantasy literature? I wouldn't really recommend fantasy literature. Tolkien could write about wilderness because he loved to go hiking and admire his local nature. By contrast, I often feel people who came after Tolkien didn't go out enough. :smalltongue:

2) Weird New World for Lamentations of the Flame Princess, acquirable as part of suplement anthology Blood, is a good combination of arctic exploration and classic spe-fi horror, and pairs well with Long Way North mentioned above. World of the Lost, Carcosa and Isle of the Unknown are likewise decent hexcrawls, though you might find them either too small or too fixated on the weird to serve a wilderness-focused game.

3) Don't listen to people who say D&D can't do wilderness, it's completely the opposite. Spells like Create Water and Purify Food & Drink exist specifcally to adress commonly occurring wilderness travel problems and they weren't automatically available in versions that pioneered this part of the game. Furthermore, the wilderness was full of monsters capable of challenging experienced parties with those abilities, clerics and magic-users could get knocked out and killed, magic items could get destroyed, scrolls could get drenched in bad weather, potions and rations could get spoiled, and AD&D even had simple rules for hygiene, diseases and parasites. Also, you didn't get to play as weird non-humans to trivialize the game. If you want to know how to play wilderness games in D&D, look at old or old school rulesets.

Saintheart
2020-12-15, 03:05 AM
One of the key things about getting people to engage with the wilderness is to make sure there are choices to be made out there. IMHO a journey through the wilderness should never just be 'run a gauntlet of random encounters around CR 3', it should involve at least a dichotomy between a safe but long route and a shorter but more dangerous route ... with time consequences involved. And then opportunities to change the chosen route because other circumstances intervene, e.g. an avalanche blocks your original journey through the mountains, you now can keep going that way with strong chance of more avalanches or try your luck down in the valley of the naturally occurring undead.

Wilderness travel should come with an expectation of the possibility if not probability of DM screwjobs. Walk through a swampy area, have some leeches and roll Fort saves against diseases. Extreme cold, yes, potions are still okay even on Frostburn's rules, you just thaw them out ... but it's a shame the glass bottles aren't built to take expansion like that and burst at below-freezing temperatures. Even if you're capable warriors, the wilderness is still full of creatures that have adapted to deal with magic, right down to the disease level. The cleric is obviating challenges with Create Food and Water, or Purify Food and Drink? That's actually not such a bad thing necessarily, he is establishing his worth and he's taking up at least a spell slot or so per day to do it. This at least asks the players to consider whether they're going to use that spell slot for something that mundane or for something more useful - especially at low levels, slots are not endless or boundless.

farothel
2020-12-15, 08:21 AM
If you can afford it, I would say travel. Go to a jungle, a savanna, etc. and experience it for yourself. It won't be exactly the same, but at least you have a lot better idea how the environment looks like (plus you have the experience of travel to other places and seeing new and interesting stuff).

Palanan
2020-12-15, 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by zarionofarabel
I draw inspiration from my own outdoors experience.


Originally Posted by Vahnavoi
I draw my inspiration from my actual outdoors experience.


Originally Posted by farothel
If you can afford it, I would say travel. Go to a jungle, a savanna, etc. and experience it for yourself.

Absolutely this.

GriffWood, if you want to get a sense for how wilderness feels, spend some time exploring whatever woods or natural areas you can find. You’ll have fun, and you’ll be able to bring that into your games.


Originally Posted by Vahnavoi
Fantasy literature? I wouldn't really recommend fantasy literature. Tolkien could write about wilderness because he loved to go hiking and admire his local nature. By contrast, I often feel people who came after Tolkien didn't go out enough.

So much agreed. The 3.5 game designers in particular didn’t really seem to get outside, which is why I wouldn’t recommend books like Frostburn, Sandstorm, etc.


Originally Posted by Mechalich
The first category is broadly limited to extreme environments - like the arctic, particularly hostile deserts, boreal forest….

I’m not sure why you’re including boreal forests as “extreme” environments, since they’ve been inhabited by indigenous peoples for thousands of years in North America and Eurasia. They can be tough, no question, but the high arctic is orders of magnitude more inimical to human life.


Originally Posted by Mechalich
The minute you add merfolk you just switched the majority of the planet from uninhabited to inhabited at a stroke.

Not necessarily. Simply including merfolk at one site says nothing about their global distribution. Including merfolk raises the possibility of broadly inhabited oceans, but it’s just as plausible that the merfolk at one site are the last of their kind.


Originally Posted by Mechalich
…but even earlier chronicles, like the Travels of Marco Polo, focus more on who he met rather than what weird environmental features he encountered.

Other travel accounts do focus on the environments being traveled through. Ibn Fadlan was traveling and living in hard wilderness, and he spends time describing the extreme conditions and peculiar wildlife he encountered.

Jay R
2020-12-18, 09:18 PM
1. Where do you draw inspiration? I've been trying to find books that evoke the feeling of the wilderness setting, like Lord of the Rings. I need to get better at narrating the feelings and senses of the environment. Can anyone recommend books with evocative language in a wilderness setting?

The best inspiration for wilderness adventures that I have is .. the wilderness.

This advice may not be useful for everybody, but in almost every encounter I run, I pick a specific spot I've actually been to.

Usually it's some place on Philmont Scout Ranch. I spent two summers there as a Ranger. I once had somebody ask what he could see from a specific spot. and I closed my eyes, remembered that spot, and told him what could really be seen.

I've also used a wooded area in east Texas, some mountains in Colorado, and a few parks I've visited. Occasionally I use books or movies . I've based an encounter on the banks of the Anduin from Lord of the Rings, Tatooine, and a jungle scene from a Tarzan movie. But I prefer a spot I've actually seen, because my players may know a scene from a book or movie as well as I do.

SwordCoastTaxi
2020-12-19, 08:55 PM
What I Hate?

Playing fantasy characters in a world that isn't fantasy.

A lot of GMs give you terrain, but not a fantasy world. If they're riding across a region, why not see flock of Pegasus? Why not see a dragon? Why not see a Wizard battle among teen casters? Why not see a contest among old Fighters (for fun)? Why not see a battle between two powerful monster?

GMs should present a fantastic setting, not some boring usual setting.

Deliver more than the players expect.

Jay R
2020-12-20, 11:25 AM
Are you looking to make it feel more like wilderness, or to make it feel more like fantasy?

For the first, watch Jeremiah Johnson. [The chase scene or tracking scene in almost any old Western will work, too.]

For the second, watch the Pastoral segment of Fantasia.