Calligrapher's kit vs. Forgery Kit

[Cikomyr2]

So I was wondering if a calligraphers kit could be use to create legal documents. Like forms, pardons, warrants, will/testament, leases. Not the signature and seal, but just the paper itself.

Would it be considered forgery? Should instead I be using a Forgery kit?

I was thinking of creating these documents and then get the proper authorities to read/sign them with the judicious use of the Suggestion spell. Ya think it would fly?

[iTreeby]

A forgers kit can probably be used for a calligrapher's kit but not the other way around. A forgery kit has several different kinds of ink as well as waxes and special paper to make forgeries of documents meant to be difficult to recreate.

[greenstone]

The calligraphers kit probably doesn't have the right papers and inks.

The forgers kit contains the right papers and inks for the forger's nation (and surrounding nations) as well as appropriate stamps, cutouts, seals, and so on.

The calligraphers kit has nice paper and nice inks and a good selection of pens and paintbrushes, and maybe a wooden stand to hold the paper while writing.

[Lord Vukodlak]

There's the proficiency in the skill and then you have the actual tools. A Calligrapher's kit probably has the tools necessary to make some forgeries but if you aren't proficient in making forgeries you won't get your proficiency bonus on the check.

[MaxWilson]

So I was wondering if a calligraphers kit could be use to create legal documents. Like forms, pardons, warrants, will/testament, leases. Not the signature and seal, but just the paper itself.

Would it be considered forgery? Should instead I be using a Forgery kit?

I was thinking of creating these documents and then get the proper authorities to read/sign them with the judicious use of the Suggestion spell. Ya think it would fly?

I learned from The Great Escape that you need to have an original to copy from. :)

[Thunderous Mojo]

There are some minor differences between the two kits, but one could probably do a rudimentary job with either kit.

A Calligrapher could very well draw up legal documents, but the characters expertise would be in drawing up new documents, not trying to replicate an old document by using chemically aged paper and inks.

A forger might be able to duplicate a document, but might not be the greatest at creating new documents.

[Naanomi]

Be proficient in both for best results

[Cikomyr2]

Be proficient in both for best results

Tool proficiency dont grow on tree, sadly.

I wonder if I could emebe spells like Charm Person or Suggestion in a piece of documentation.

[Naanomi]

Tool proficiency dont grow on tree, sadly.

I wonder if I could emebe spells like Charm Person or Suggestion in a piece of documentation.
Well, they grow on time and money though if you really want them

[Quietus]

Tool proficiency dont grow on tree, sadly.

Elves and Dwarves would disagree.

[JellyPooga]

There's the proficiency in the skill and then you have the actual tools. A Calligrapher's kit probably has the tools necessary to make some forgeries but if you aren't proficient in making forgeries you won't get your proficiency bonus on the check.

This is the correct answer.

Both a carpenters kit and a masons kit are going to contain a hammer (or two), but proficiency in the one won't help with the other and proficiency with neither will help you swing a maul in battle.

[Zuras]

The calligrapher’s kit would probably be fine for forging a brand new document that doesn’t include a seal or watermark, assuming you have the skill in forgers tools.

What it won’t have are the implements to artificially create wear in a document, so you won’t be able to realistically forge an old deed to a property or something of that nature. Similarly, skill in calligraphy might let you copy handwriting, but not the other aspects of an official document. So forging an arrest warrant from the captain of the guard might take five hours for a forger with a kit, or five minutes for a calligrapher able to sneak into the captains office.

[Cikomyr2]

Exactly. I don't plan to replicate what are seemingly old document. I want to write *real* official documents, and then use magic to force the right people to sign them in absolute legality! :smallbiggrin:


In this case, nobody who investigates the *document* would assume it's fake. They'd have to investigate the signatory for proof of magical tampering.

For example, nobody would bad an eye at a "Recently signed will and testament". Nobody would bat an eye at a Royal Pardon that is signed on a brand new paper.

[Quietus]

Exactly. I don't plan to replicate what are seemingly old document. I want to write *real* official documents, and then use magic to force the right people to sign them in absolute legality! :smallbiggrin:


In this case, nobody who investigates the *document* would assume it's fake. They'd have to investigate the signatory for proof of magical tampering.

For example, nobody would bad an eye at a "Recently signed will and testament". Nobody would bat an eye at a Royal Pardon that is signed on a brand new paper.

As a DM, I'm still going to expect you to have proficiency in Forgery tools to get the full benefit here. Calligraphy might get you the ability to copy signatures, but do you have the right letterhead? Have you copied that invisible magical seal that is expected to be on all official legal documents? A calligrapher wouldn't know about that. There might be ways to get around those objections, but a sidequest heist so that you can get the right letterheads and seals so that you can apply proficiency/avoid disadvantage on the roll is probably going to be involved.