High CR enemies

[schreier]

I've seen posts before about highest CR enemies (Great Wyrm Time Dragon CR90).

I just found a scarier one - one of the Eberron Rakshasa Raja Overlords -
Sul Khatesh, The Keeper of Secrets (Dragon 337, pg 68-70)
60 HD (20 Outsider, 36 Wizard, 4 Archmage)
Has Automatic Quicken 0-6, Epic Spellcasting, Automatic Counterspelling

Knows all wizard/sorceror spells, can cast all spontaneously with any metamagic without increasing casting

Can overpower antimagic fields

Fast healing 25, 740 HP

No idea what you do against her

[Morcleon]

She's only got initiative +9, 55 AC, and no real anti-melee defense. If you free her and know where she'll appear when freed, a properly-made ubercharger will one-shot her and a single soul bind casting will trap her soul for you.

[NigelWalmsley]

How does that beat her? She just casts Celerity then Teleport to get away. Or just a death spell on the Ubercharger. Or nest a bunch of Time Stops, buff herself to infinity (assuming I'm understanding OP, she can cast any spell Ocular Persistent for free), then kill the Ubercharger on an attack of opportunity.

[schreier]

She doesn't have all metamagic feats, but can apply the ones she does have without lengthening the spellcasting

She has:
Quicken (Auto 06)
Empower
Enhance
Enlarge
Heighten & Improved Heighten
Maximize
Multispell (x2)
Nonlethal Substitution
Persistent Spell
Silent Spell
Still Spell
Widen Spell

Also - she can cast spells up to level 15

She has "rajah traits" including:
senses that reach up to 7 miles away, seeing in perfect darkness, SR 40

They are also immune to all binding spells, including soul binding

[NigelWalmsley]

Wait, when you say "increase casting" do you mean the time or the slot? Because one of those things is a much bigger deal than the other one.

But fundamentally she's a spellcaster who is well past the point where spellcasters became essentially arbitrarily powerful.

Also, why on earth does her build only have four levels of Archmage? Were they just like "well, can't think of a fifth Major Arcana she'd want"?

[schreier]

Wait, when you say "increase casting" do you mean the time or the slot? Because one of those things is a much bigger deal than the other one.

But fundamentally she's a spellcaster who is well past the point where spellcasters became essentially arbitrarily powerful.

Also, why on earth does her build only have four levels of Archmage? Were they just like "well, can't think of a fifth Major Arcana she'd want"?

Doesn't increase casting time (does increase level) but with spells up to level 15 that isn't a huge deal - also has improved metamagic 1 (so metamagic feats cost 1 less per)

No idea why archmage 4, but I am guessing you're right (only wanted the 4 abilities they picked)

[ExLibrisMortis]

Wait, when you say "increase casting" do you mean the time or the slot? Because one of those things is a much bigger deal than the other one.

But fundamentally she's a spellcaster who is well past the point where spellcasters became essentially arbitrarily powerful.

Also, why on earth does her build only have four levels of Archmage? Were they just like "well, can't think of a fifth Major Arcana she'd want"?
It's just casting time. She does have Improved Metamagic, but only once.

The build is... really questionable. No automatic Quicken for 9ths? Not an extra couple of Improved Metamagics? No second prestige class, just 30 more levels of wizard? For that matter, levels in wizard when you already get all sor/wiz spells spontaneously? Why not get levels in something useful, like, I don't know, beguiler?


She's only got initiative +9, 55 AC, and no real anti-melee defense. If you free her and know where she'll appear when freed, a properly-made ubercharger will one-shot her and a single soul bind casting will trap her soul for you.
Rajahs are immune to soul bind and trap the soul, but I suppose you could use thinaun. I'm not sure how the whole "freeing" is supposed to go; it might be the case that she'll start flat-footed without active spells. In that case, you have one round to defeat her, assuming everyone has 30 initiative or higher, but no more.

[sleepyphoenixx]

How does that beat her? She just casts Celerity then Teleport to get away. Or just a death spell on the Ubercharger. Or nest a bunch of Time Stops, buff herself to infinity (assuming I'm understanding OP, she can cast any spell Ocular Persistent for free), then kill the Ubercharger on an attack of opportunity.

You can't use immediate actions or attacks of opportunity when you're flat footed.
So unless she starts with a pre-cast Foresight she's SOL against most optimized parties (as in any with semi-decent initiative) and will probably die before getting to act.

And considering the likely level of any party facing her they'll probably also have stuff like Rings of Spell Battle to counter her magic at least for a round or two. Or just AMF.
And for her level the save DC's for her spells are rather anemic too.

She's definitely dangerous if played as a BBEG with time to leverage her spell knowledge, but as a one-off encounter with no pre-buffs any halfway decent low-epic party could stomp her.
Honestly if it wasn't for the 20 outsider HD boosting her saves and the ridiculous special abilities she'd be an Elminster-tier failure of character building.

[Biggus]

How does that beat her? She just casts Celerity then Teleport to get away. Or just a death spell on the Ubercharger. Or nest a bunch of Time Stops, buff herself to infinity (assuming I'm understanding OP, she can cast any spell Ocular Persistent for free), then kill the Ubercharger on an attack of opportunity.

The OP isn't quite correct; she only knows all PHB spells as default, although the DM can choose to have her know other ones if they wish.

[Telonius]

Spam it with Reciprocal Gyre, maybe?

[Quertus]

I'm struggling to see how she wins over the power of action economy, if the party chooses to simply Counterspell all of her spells.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'm struggling to see how she wins over the power of action economy, if the party chooses to simply Counterspell all of her spells.

She does have Multispell twice so she casts 4 spells per round.
Combined with her CL of 40 and spontaneous spell access you'd need an entire party of dedicated counterspellers just to keep up

[schreier]

Also Timestop and Gate could even out the action economy. Getting surprised as she wakes up for one turn and is flat footed, sure -- but most enemies are screwed in that situation. TO vs PO - and with her intelligence and network, it shouldn't be that way

[Quertus]

She does have Multispell twice so she casts 4 spells per round.
Combined with her CL of 40 and spontaneous spell access you'd need an entire party of dedicated counterspellers just to keep up

I tend to like big parties :smallwink:

Besides, 4 PCs and their cohorts shouldn't have too much trouble, should they?


Also Timestop and Gate could even out the action economy. Getting surprised as she wakes up for one turn and is flat footed, sure -- but most enemies are screwed in that situation. TO vs PO - and with her intelligence and network, it shouldn't be that way

The TO is the PCs, right? Because her build isn't remotely TO, afaict.

[schreier]

Correct on TO/PO.

If she is remotely awake, with senses that reach out 7 miles, the ability to read minds, etc ... with powerful rakshasa followers and their minions, she would make a very challenging BBEG.

If you wake her up, you have a quick round to charge in with everything. If you let her go, it will be much more challenging. At least that's my take. I was surprised they gave her that +5/+5 staff without any major powers though.

[newguydude1]

ice assassin.
or two.
or three.

however many you need.
i can kill all epic monsters with 9th level spells only.

for example, use a free wish obtained either with shapechange or dweomerkeeper or ur priest (since wotc says ur priest players should steal a pit fiends wish) to make a max hd iron colossus (cause golems are explicitly both creature and magic item) and its amf and impossibly high grapple score should let it beat on the thing until its dead.
or get two
or get three
with more ice assassins if you want.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I tend to like big parties :smallwink:

Besides, 4 PCs and their cohorts shouldn't have to much trouble, should they?

It's not like you need to counter all her spells.
You could probably build a 4 man level 20 party that can beat her in a straight fight even without Leadership or Ice Assassin/Wish abuse.
Not even built specifically to defeat her, just the usual precautions you'd take at that level to deal with spellcasters.
It'd be challenging, sure, but that's mainly because of raw defensive numbers - she does have 60 HD after all with 20 of those being outsider HD.

But even assuming you plug the holes in her defenses with pre-buffs her offensive abilities are still pretty lame with DC's of 25 + spell level.
Since she's at least CR 45-50 that's just pathetic. You don't even have to work very hard to get saves in the 40-50 range pre-epic, so the vast majority of her arsenal is just ineffective.
Casting 4 spells per round is all well and good but it won't save you if they don't actually do anything.

Sure, there's no-save spells, but a lot of them run into the immunities PC's of that level have by default.
The rest simply aren't sufficient to lock down and kill a remotely appropriate party in 1 round, especially once you consider that the party will likely be able to counter at least some of them.
Her spell slots are still limited after all so it's not like she can indefinitely spam 9th level spells while also countering the parties own spells.
She'll probably run out of steam pretty fast if you can survive the initial onslaught.

[icefractal]

I mean, it really depends on whether you're facing her with the printed stat-block (only really applicable if she just popped into existence and is flat-footed) or with her full abilities. "Could a 40th level caster with Epic Spellcasting beat 4-6 foes of 20th level?" seems pretty plausible.

It's like when people talk about the gods being pushovers, when several of them have 20+ levels of casting and/or Alter Reality. You realize they can do all the same TO tricks as you, right?

[newguydude1]

You realize they can do all the same TO tricks as you, right?

no they cant. they lack class features and metamagic feats. the only thing they can abuse is free wish but so can everyone else.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The TO is the PCs, right? Because her build isn't remotely TO, afaict.
Well, spontaneous access to the entire sor/wiz list (with a generous DM supplying non-PHB spells, that is) is pretty TOish. The rest is just epic feat silliness.


Sul Khatesh can cast level 15 spells at CL 40 with a Concentration check of +60, which makes them hard to counterspell or disrupt. You need one of the following three: Improved Counterspell and prepared 16th-level spells, the ability to hit DC 51 dispel checks reliably, or the ability to force DC 81 Concentration checks reliably (71 damage to disrupt cantrips).

Even if you have someone who can in principle counter anything Sul Khatesh can do, she can counter any counterspell as a free action (counterspells are cast, like spells, and have no special resistance to being counterspelled). And since she has spontaneous access to all spells, she'll always counter with the right spell, which means she doesn't need a dispel check. That means you need more counterspellers, which she'll all counterspell, and so on, until you pretty much have one counterspeller per spell slot.

Overall, I think it's a lot easier to drop a CL 61 (Enlarged, Widened) antimagic field on her head, perhaps carried by an Initiate of Mystra-cast animated object made out of riverine. That shuts down her spellcasting, Detect Thoughts, Know Secrets, and Embodiment of Evil, and neutralizes her staff, if you care about that. Make sure you keep that Initiate of Mystra around, preferably with some friends, and make sure they can hit DC 72 caster level checks reliably.

N.B. Her Mystical Force ability says she makes an "opposed level check" against the caster of the antimagic field. I assume that's meant to be "caster level". If it's some other kind of level check (class level? character level?), you'll need someone with serious HD bloat. Break out the barghest/death giant cheese, and all that.

[Quertus]

Sul Khatesh can cast level 15 spells at CL 40 with a Concentration check of +60, which makes them hard to counterspell or disrupt. You need one of the following three: Improved Counterspell and prepared 16th-level spells,

Huh. Have I been playing Counterspell and/or metamagic wrong? I didn't think that you took the metamagics into account when attempting to Counterspell.

Then again, it's not something that really sees play at my tables, because we usually a) fight monsters, or b) introduce casters to the fine art of painting with chunky red salsa / thin red mist.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Huh. Have I been playing Counterspell and/or metamagic wrong? I didn't think that you took the metamagics into account when attempting to Counterspell.
It doesn't normally, but if you're using Improved Counterspell, the spell you're using has to be of a higher level (and from the same school). Sul Khatesh has Heighten Spell, so if she really wants to stick a spell, she can cast it at 15th level, and you'll either need to know the exact spell, or a spell from the same school one level higher. Given that she has access to every core spell plus whatever splatbook support the DM gives her, you can't count on having the spell prepared.

I mean, if you accept less certainty about your ability to counter spells, you can simply bring counterspellers with a representative sample of powerful spells, and hope Sul Khatesh will try to cast those. But if you want to counter everything she could possibly cast, you'll need a more general method.

[Anthrowhale]

A high powered version of scry & die is something like:
Scry = Metafaculty functioning at manifester level 46 to penetrate a (presumed) Mind Blank via mental pinnacle + caster level boosters.
Die = Maximized Timestop / Sense Weakness / Surge of Fortune / Wishport / Disjunction / ready[time resumes] / [immediate] trigger Surge of Fortune / Attack with Thinaun blade vorpal weapon

Using a vorpal blade as a disposable weapon is expensive, but it seems justifiable in this case.

[the_tick_rules]

what's a time dragon? i don't remember those.

[ExLibrisMortis]

what's a time dragon? i don't remember those.
For the last physical Dragon magazine (#359), which also marks the end of the 3.5 era, they decided to do the epicest of epic dragons, which ended up being time dragons.

Highlights of the great wyrm time dragon include a twelve-round time hop breath weapon (80' cone), at-will (Sp) time stop (one-round cooldown), permanent (Su) haste (that resumes automatically if somehow dispelled--yeah, I don't know how to dispel (Su) abilities either), (Ex) immunity to any spell or effect with a duration that they didn't produce themselves, and permanent (Ex) choose destiny (not by that name, but effectively). On the other hand, it's CR 90 with only 37th-level sorcerer casting, and still vulnerable to Dexterity damage. (Shivering touch isn't Instantaneous, for some reason, so it's immune to that, at least.)

[ShurikVch]

Nyarlathotep (Call of Cthulhu d20, published by WotC) is CR 45, and have ability to "cast any spell as a free action".
If they don't win with this alone - they're, probably, don't even trying, but it's get better: Alter Size/Alter Form, Divine Shield, Instant Move, and - if you somehow still beat it and win the battle - there is also Rejuvenation (Ghost-style), which can't be prevented
And, while you waiting for the Rejuvenation, you also would need to deal with the ten avatars of Nyarlathotep - which are, mostly, have all the same powers as Nyarlathotep: except no Rejuvenation, no Create Object/Create Greater Object, -5 to HD/BAB/saves, and -7 AC

[Melcar]

For the last physical Dragon magazine (#359), which also marks the end of the 3.5 era, they decided to do the epicest of epic dragons, which ended up being time dragons.

Highlights of the great wyrm time dragon include a twelve-round time hop breath weapon (80' cone), at-will (Sp) time stop (one-round cooldown), permanent (Su) haste (that resumes automatically if somehow dispelled--yeah, I don't know how to dispel (Su) abilities either), (Ex) immunity to any spell or effect with a duration that they didn't produce themselves, and permanent (Ex) choose destiny (not by that name, but effectively). On the other hand, it's CR 90 with only 37th-level sorcerer casting, and still vulnerable to Dexterity damage. (Shivering touch isn't Instantaneous, for some reason, so it's immune to that, at least.)

Remember that shivering touch deal ability damage, the duration of the spell, pertains to how long you hold the charge!

[Biggus]

Remember that shivering touch deal ability damage, the duration of the spell, pertains to how long you hold the charge!

Huh? Where are you getting that from?

[Melcar]

Huh? Where are you getting that from?

The way I understand it, the spell deals ability damage, and we know how ability damage is healed, ergo the duration must refer to something else... because there is nothing in the spell that would indicate that the ability damage is not normal ability damage... and ability damage does not have a duration, but heals - iirc - 1/hour... so that’s is the duration of the effect. What ever the 1 round/ level is, must be the time in which the spell is active before the touch is delivered. So you cast the spell, and within 1/lvl you can touch a creature and give it ability damage... after the spell is delivered the rules for ability damage take over...

[ExLibrisMortis]

The way I understand it, the spell deals ability damage, and we know how ability damage is healed, ergo the duration must refer to something else... because there is nothing in the spell that would indicate that the ability damage is not normal ability damage... and ability damage does not have a duration, but heals - iirc - 1/hour... so that’s is the duration of the effect. What ever the 1 round/ level is, must be the time in which the spell is active before the touch is delivered. So you cast the spell, and within 1/lvl you can touch a creature and give it ability damage... after the spell is delivered the rules for ability damage take over...
Spell durations don't usually have anything to do with how long you can hold the charge. The rules for holding the charge say: "In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely". (The exception to "most cases" is in the paragraph right after: teleport's "touch a bunch of people during casting" mechanic.) Even spells with instantaneous duration can be held indefinitely, as evidenced by the lack of an exception for blight. So duration has nothing to do with holding the charge.

Of course, as you say, there's no reason for the ability damage to have a duration either. So we're left with a spell that has a duration, while none of its mechanics require a duration, which is pretty stupid. Still, technically makes great wyrm time dragons immune, so good for them :smalltongue:.

[KillianHawkeye]

what's a time dragon? i don't remember those.

It's a dragon who is never late nor early. It arrives at precisely the time it intends to. Then it eats you.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Of course, as you say, there's no reason for the ability damage to have a duration either. So we're left with a spell that has a duration, while none of its mechanics require a duration, which is pretty stupid. Still, technically makes great wyrm time dragons immune, so good for them :smalltongue:.

Lesser Shivering Touch at least has a passage that could reasonably be interpreted to only have the dex damage for the duration:

Your successful melee touch attack delivers a bitter chill to the target, causing it to shiver uncontrollably for the duration of the spell.
Shivering characters take 1d6 points of Dexterity damage.
Of course a imaginative rules lawyer could argue that they then take 1d6 points of dexterity damage for every round they're shivering. :smalltongue:

Shivering Touch of course lacks even that much.

The other alternative i can see is that you can make Shivering Touch touch attacks for as long as the spell lasts, which is only slightly less ridiculous.

[Melcar]

It's a dragon who is never late nor early. It arrives at precisely the time it intends to. Then it eats you.

This really made me laugh!



Lesser Shivering Touch at least has a passage that could reasonably be interpreted to only have the dex damage for the duration:

Of course a imaginative rules lawyer could argue that they then take 1d6 points of dexterity damage for every round they're shivering. :smalltongue:

Shivering Touch of course lacks even that much.

The other alternative i can see is that you can make Shivering Touch touch attacks for as long as the spell lasts, which is only slightly less ridiculous.

Right, the RAI was probably that its meant to only give the penalty for only a certain amount of time - and well, still does - but my interpretation, of the RAW, is that the standard rules for ability damage take over. That is so far how we've resolved it, and haven't had any problems with that... except the obvious that it is an exceedingly powerful spell!

[sleepyphoenixx]

Right, the RAI was probably that its meant to only give the penalty for only a certain amount of time - and well, still does - but my interpretation, of the RAW, is that the standard rules for ability damage take over. That is so far how we've resolved it, and haven't had any problems with that... except the obvious that it is an exceedingly powerful spell!

Yeah, but it's a really powerful spell even under the most restrictive reading. There is no option where no-save 3d6 dex damage isn't powerful.
It's just so badly written that it's really hard to tell how it's supposed to work.

[icefractal]

no they cant. they lack class features and metamagic feats. the only thing they can abuse is free wish but so can everyone else.They can DCFS or use Psychic Reformation, so they have whatever feats they want to have at a given time.

Class features no (aside from Ice Assassin of someone who has one), but what features out there are really game-changing? There's a lot that are good, in the realm of "optimized but still basically playing the game normally", but once you get into TO territory it's all the raw power of spells. And if you're not in TO territory, the substantial benefits of being a god come into play.

Like, I'm not saying a game where you fight the gods and win is wrong, but "the gods are pushovers" includes an unstated and very important "if the PCs are played smart and the gods are played dumb".

Similar to "Here's my plan: Step one - find a higher level caster, who could easily pull off this trick themselves. Step two - pay them a few hundred gold to bootstrap me to nigh-infinite power. They will definitely do this for me rather than do it for themselves (or have already done it and be chilling on their private demiplane now), because spellcasting services are listed in the PHB." It's a fun trick for discussion purposes, but if a campaign actually worked like that it would feel pretty silly.

[newguydude1]

Class features no (aside from Ice Assassin of someone who has one), but what features out there are really game-changing? There's a lot that are good, in the realm of "optimized but still basically playing the game normally", but once you get into TO territory it's all the raw power of spells. And if you're not in TO territory, the substantial benefits of being a god come into play.

if we're talking free wishes to get infinite epic magic gears of at will all spells then both are equal.
if we remove the free wishes then its whoever can make the most ice assassins. ice assassin of god vs ice assassin of god.
if we remove ice assassin then its simply chain gate.
if we remove chain gate then it comes down to infinite craft contingent items
if we remove craft contingent items then finally it comes down to the better mailman overcoming the defenses of the opposition. and class features are the better mailman.

[icefractal]

if we remove craft contingent items then finally it comes down to the better mailman overcoming the defenses of the opposition. and class features are the better mailman.So I'd agree we need to go at least that far before there's really a difference between people, but at that point I don't think being the better mailman necessarily matters, at least not "better" meaning more damage.

If you can do 10^27 damage and the deity in question can only do 300 ... that's effectively the same. You both kill the other in a single shot. At that point what matters (at a tactical level) is who can be stealthier / more perceptive, who can win initiative, and who runs out of (non-infinite) contingent defenses faster. And in all those categories, the deity is going to be on-par if not outright superior.

On a strategic level, you have one big advantage - deities tend to be more high-profile and have known places where they make appearances. On the other hand, the deity has a lot more followers and has SDAs like portfolio sense.

[Quertus]

So I'd agree we need to go at least that far before there's really a difference between people, but at that point I don't think being the better mailman necessarily matters, at least not "better" meaning more damage.

If you can do 10^27 damage and the deity in question can only do 300 ... that's effectively the same. You both kill the other in a single shot. At that point what matters (at a tactical level) is who can be stealthier / more perceptive, who can win initiative, and who runs out of (non-infinite) contingent defenses faster. And in all those categories, the deity is going to be on-par if not outright superior.

On a strategic level, you have one big advantage - deities tend to be more high-profile and have known places where they make appearances. On the other hand, the deity has a lot more followers and has SDAs like portfolio sense.

So, as statted, how much damage can the gods actually do? The big names are probably… Thor, Torn, Mystra, and Boccob?

Of course, those are probably all greater gods… if you're just trying to kill *a* god, what are the *weakest* deities? Anyone have any nominations?

What level are the PCs? I've certainly seen PCs who could survive 300 damage (even ignoring immunities).

The gods are a static target, at a static level of optimization. Eventually, the PCs will almost certainly exceed that target as they level, regardless of their level of optimization.

[icefractal]

The gods are a static target, at a static level of optimization. Eventually, the PCs will almost certainly exceed that target as they level, regardless of their level of optimization.That's what I'm saying though - unless you're running an isekai-style game where the PCs are the only ones who can think outside the box, the gods shouldn't be static.

Or rather, they shouldn't be static with the stats given in D&DG. Those stats are appropriate in a world where the PCs look like Jozan / Tordek / Lidda / Mialee, optimization-wise. In a world where PCs live in a secure demiplane, walk around with dozens of buffs spells, and one-shot anything from the MM, the deities should be optimized as well. Again, unless the point is that everyone but the PCs is mentally stagnated.

But also, since even the least of the gods has the resources to rebuild themselves easily, they shouldn't be assumed completely static once play starts either.

[ExLibrisMortis]

That's what I'm saying though - unless you're running an isekai-style game where the PCs are the only ones who can think outside the box, the gods shouldn't be static.

Or rather, they shouldn't be static with the stats given in D&DG. Those stats are appropriate in a world where the PCs look like Jozan / Tordek / Lidda / Mialee, optimization-wise. In a world where PCs live in a secure demiplane, walk around with dozens of buffs spells, and one-shot anything from the MM, the deities should be optimized as well. Again, unless the point is that everyone but the PCs is mentally stagnated.

But also, since even the least of the gods has the resources to rebuild themselves easily, they shouldn't be assumed completely static once play starts either.
You can do a lot of world-building if you use optimization (including tier) and scaling build resources.

For example, consider a first-level soldier-type.

A human warrior is a weak soldier.
A human fighter is an average soldier.
A human crusader is a strong soldier.
A human crusader//incarnate is a very strong soldier.
A human crusader//cloistered cleric is stronger still.

And you can do the exact same thing with pit fiends and even deities. If you allow NPCs who accomplish PC-like acts to level up "sideways", you get a bit of social mobility as well (for those important zero-to-hero plots).

In a world like this, you rate people on build resources*optimization instead of CR. So you could have a captain of the guard who is a human fighter 2/battle dancer 1/marshal 2/crusader 1//bard 6, and they're considered equivalent to... dunno, a 12th-level aristocrat or something? Those characters consider themselves to be equals in-universe, share the same social circle, present similar challenges, and so on. I mean, it's probably even worse to balance than the CR system already is, but it's more interesting. You can take the imbalance in D&D (as expressed in the tier system, primarily) and the different methods of building characters (NPC, PC, gestalt PC), and use their differences to present a richer and more complex world.

Edit: Goes without saying, but to be explicit: In a world like this, I expect the big names to have optimization to match. But you can have a lot of fun with a Demon Prince who's got 50 HD and a terrible feat selection, doesn't understand this system, and keeps wondering why he's getting trounced by 20 HD opponents.

[Quertus]

That's what I'm saying though - unless you're running an isekai-style game where the PCs are the only ones who can think outside the box, the gods shouldn't be static.

Or rather, they shouldn't be static with the stats given in D&DG. Those stats are appropriate in a world where the PCs look like Jozan / Tordek / Lidda / Mialee, optimization-wise. In a world where PCs live in a secure demiplane, walk around with dozens of buffs spells, and one-shot anything from the MM, the deities should be optimized as well. Again, unless the point is that everyone but the PCs is mentally stagnated.

But also, since even the least of the gods has the resources to rebuild themselves easily, they shouldn't be assumed completely static once play starts either.


But you can have a lot of fun with a Demon Prince who's got 50 HD and a terrible feat selection, doesn't understand this system, and keeps wondering why he's getting trounced by 20 HD opponents.

I guess that there's two ways to look at this.

One, the gods are canonically dumb enough to have leveled up the way that they did, so they're clearly too dumb/ignorant/whatever to optimize. Surely I'm not alone in knowing players who simply *cannot* build characters at anywhere near "Playgrounder" level of competence (and that's definitely *me* in numerous systems (sometimes, even with help: "for the love of Gork, <Quertus>, take something with full auto" "but I don't *like* throwing away bullets like they were candy")) . Well, those are your gods. Deal with it.

Two, it's all an abstraction, classes and feats don't really exist in universe, the gods are what they are. Rebuild quests, like rerolls and Monty Python quotes, are 4th-wall breaking metagame constructs, and the gods simply don't have access to such (yet another reason why they fear the PCs).

Now, I'm all for intelligent villains - and allies - who can grow intelligently. But the gods are more like (and by "more like", I mean "usually are") the top dogs who got there through nepotism. They aren't the best because they had to work for it - they were handed their positions as their birthright.

So, no, I don't think it's good role-playing for deities statted out the horrifically suboptimal ways that they are in D&D to grow intelligently. It seems more in character to me to have a dieing god ask, baffled, "how did this happen?"

[sleepyphoenixx]

So, no, I don't think it's good role-playing for deities statted out the horrifically suboptimal ways that they are in D&D to grow intelligently. It seems more in character to me to have a dieing god ask, baffled, "how did this happen?"

That's certainly true for some gods. But not all of them.
Any god with a significantly superhuman intelligence should be able to at least keep up with the general optimization level of the setting.
At least for the feats that represent training instead of inborn gifts.

That goes double for gods of magic and battle who should be able to at least imitate the tactics of successful PC's of the relevant classes just by virtue of their portfolio senses, no matter their builds or intelligence.

[Quertus]

That's certainly true for some gods. But not all of them.
Any god with a significantly superhuman intelligence should be able to at least keep up with the general optimization level of the setting.
At least for the feats that represent training instead of inborn gifts.

1) that doesn't match my experiences with high intelligence players incapable of keeping up with optimization.

2) training? Gods? Lol no. Note the "untrained, unworthy nepotism" angle.


That goes double for gods of magic and battle who should be able to at least imitate the tactics of successful PC's of the relevant classes just by virtue of their portfolio senses, no matter their builds or intelligence.

"Yeah, he put the pointy end in the other guy, and he turned into a fine red mist, so I should be even *better* at that, being a god and all."

"And she cast a spell to one-shot that monster, but I prefer my fireball, as it hits *multiple* targets."

Plenty of GMs have failed to imitate the tactics of successful PCs - it's no different here. The gods will be as incompetent as they ever are, regardless of the competence of the PCs.

[Biggus]

The way I understand it, the spell deals ability damage, and we know how ability damage is healed, ergo the duration must refer to something else... because there is nothing in the spell that would indicate that the ability damage is not normal ability damage... and ability damage does not have a duration, but heals - iirc - 1/hour... so that’s is the duration of the effect. What ever the 1 round/ level is, must be the time in which the spell is active before the touch is delivered. So you cast the spell, and within 1/lvl you can touch a creature and give it ability damage... after the spell is delivered the rules for ability damage take over...



Right, the RAI was probably that its meant to only give the penalty for only a certain amount of time - and well, still does - but my interpretation, of the RAW, is that the standard rules for ability damage take over. That is so far how we've resolved it, and haven't had any problems with that... except the obvious that it is an exceedingly powerful spell!

The way I interpret it is "specific trumps general". Ability damage has a normal duration, but in this case it lasts 1 round per level, because that's what the spell says. There are plenty of examples of spells whose effects usually last for a certain amount of time but don't in their specific case. If the way you play it works for you, fair enough, but I don't think it's RAW or RAI.

[icefractal]

1) that doesn't match my experiences with high intelligence players incapable of keeping up with optimization.

...

Plenty of GMs have failed to imitate the tactics of successful PCs - it's no different here. The gods will be as incompetent as they ever are, regardless of the competence of the PCs. That's not an argument for the gods being dumb though, it's an argument for the gods optimization levels to be based purely on the GM's skill, rather than the PCs. What if the GM is as good or better at optimizing than the PCs are?

To me, I feel like this is the other side of the "mechanical transparency" coin.
1) What the NPCs can do, the PCs should usually be able to do.
2) What the PCs can do, the NPCs should usually be able to do.

[Sam K]

"Yeah, he put the pointy end in the other guy, and he turned into a fine red mist, so I should be even *better* at that, being a god and all."

"And she cast a spell to one-shot that monster, but I prefer my fireball, as it hits *multiple* targets."

Plenty of GMs have failed to imitate the tactics of successful PCs - it's no different here. The gods will be as incompetent as they ever are, regardless of the competence of the PCs.

I'm now imagining the gods as mediocre middle managers sitting around in meetings all eternity:

Thor: "So clearly, as you can see these so called 'PCs' only have 80HD between themselves *hiccup* I'm 90HD so clearly we have nothing to worry about!"
Rat: "Exactly, now lets get back to worrying about the REAL problem: people who take levels of ninja and knight! Monkey sent out a REALLY urgent PM about that!"
Frey: "Hey, I only have 75 HD..."
Odin: "Work smarter, not harder!"
Loki: "Was that a Dilbert joke, or are you just senile?"
Odin: "Yes?"
Petitioner running the projector: "Listen, it's more complicated than that! I was a 5th leve wizard before dying, and I had a build all worked out where I'd ascend at 7th level, and even THAT was underpowered. Theoretically, at 20HD a single PC caster could..."
Thor: "Oh sure, in THEORY. But in THEORY wizard is the strongest base class. And in THEORY 5th ed is fun to play!"
Petitioner: "Just take a look at these numbers, it's a pretty simple build from Giant..."
Thor: "Again with the giants? How about I SMITE you as a giant? Cause I can totally do that! 90HD, baby! Who's your daddy?"
Odin: "Me?"
Loki: "I can't tell if you're pimpin' it or gimpin' it, dad."
Tyr: "Hey! Not cool!"
Loki: "I admit, that was an under-hand tactic."
Tyr: "Dude..."
Thor: "Anyway, if wizards are so powerful, how did you die? Huh? Huh?"
Petitioner: "Killed by a *mumble*...."
Thor: "Killed by a crit form a lvl 1 orc, that's right! You don't see anyone with 90HD doing that, do you?"
Petitioner: "No..."
Thor: "Exactly! Moving on: someone started praying to Zeus? Who's on call for answering prayers to has-beens?"
Petitioner: "It was just a random encounter, you know..."

[GrayDeath]

I am so stealing this once our "Evil Guys with Agency aiming for Godhood" Group gets to slaying a God or 2.

Muhahaha, I`ll even use the Gamers 1 End Scene. ^^

[ExLibrisMortis]

I guess that there's two ways to look at this.
Nononono. The idea is that you do both, in the same setting.

You have your top demon princes. Most of them are optimized according to their intelligence, and have around 40 HD with proper abilities (class or otherwise). But there's that one prince who just missed the boat and isn't that optimized at all (I mean, still moderately optimized, but let's say he didn't get the memo about Persistomancy). The only reason he's sticking about is that he's got 60 HD and a bazillion natural defences, so he's just a royal pain to kill, and the Abyss respects that (mostly by testing his defences, I imagine, but okay).

Now, this demon prince is totally aware that they've got a lot of HD (not in those terms, of course, but still aware). And the other demon princes never really bother to attack him, so he imagines he's pretty strong. But whenever he actually tries to throw down with Demogorgon or Orcus or Dagon or whoever, he always gets a trashing. And he just can't get it. Surely, with 20 extra HD (50% more!) he should be a dead certain winner? What's up with that? Something must be wrong in the world, it's so unfair! Cue much demonic outrage achieving exactly nothing.

Basically the idea is that you have a mix of optimization levels at a given power "rank", and an occasional outlier who is either a sucker (wizard 20 adventuring with fighter 20), a great hero to their class ("Look, it's the only person in the world who managed to overcome being a straight divine mind!"), or comic relief (i.e. this demon prince--who is also a sucker, but rule of threes and all that).

[Quertus]

That's not an argument for the gods being dumb though, it's an argument for the gods optimization levels to be based purely on the GM's skill, rather than the PCs. What if the GM is as good or better at optimizing than the PCs are?

To me, I feel like this is the other side of the "mechanical transparency" coin.
1) What the NPCs can do, the PCs should usually be able to do.
2) What the PCs can do, the NPCs should usually be able to do.

Well, no. That would be bad role-playing. The gods' stat blocks pretty well demonstrate what level of optimization the GM should roleplay them as capable of understanding.

The GM's own creations should be played at various levels of optimization, from "poor" to GM-level (or above, if they read online guides). But, outside of edge cases (like gaming with the ghost of Gygax), the gods aren't the GM's creation, and maxing out their optimization level to the GM's is as nonsensical as the PCs optimizing Jozan and company to theirs.

Even so, by level 1,000, I expect that the PCs will have exceeded the gods anyway, even at a different optimization level, so it's a moot point to my contention that the PCs will surpass the gods *eventually*.

----

In addition to being hilarious, these posts seem much better role-playing than Determinator "lol MAX OP":


I'm now imagining the gods as mediocre middle managers sitting around in meetings all eternity:

Thor: "So clearly, as you can see these so called 'PCs' only have 80HD between themselves *hiccup* I'm 90HD so clearly we have nothing to worry about!"
Rat: "Exactly, now lets get back to worrying about the REAL problem: people who take levels of ninja and knight! Monkey sent out a REALLY urgent PM about that!"
Frey: "Hey, I only have 75 HD..."
Odin: "Work smarter, not harder!"
Loki: "Was that a Dilbert joke, or are you just senile?"
Odin: "Yes?"
Petitioner running the projector: "Listen, it's more complicated than that! I was a 5th leve wizard before dying, and I had a build all worked out where I'd ascend at 7th level, and even THAT was underpowered. Theoretically, at 20HD a single PC caster could..."
Thor: "Oh sure, in THEORY. But in THEORY wizard is the strongest base class. And in THEORY 5th ed is fun to play!"
Petitioner: "Just take a look at these numbers, it's a pretty simple build from Giant..."
Thor: "Again with the giants? How about I SMITE you as a giant? Cause I can totally do that! 90HD, baby! Who's your daddy?"
Odin: "Me?"
Loki: "I can't tell if you're pimpin' it or gimpin' it, dad."
Tyr: "Hey! Not cool!"
Loki: "I admit, that was an under-hand tactic."
Tyr: "Dude..."
Thor: "Anyway, if wizards are so powerful, how did you die? Huh? Huh?"
Petitioner: "Killed by a *mumble*...."
Thor: "Killed by a crit form a lvl 1 orc, that's right! You don't see anyone with 90HD doing that, do you?"
Petitioner: "No..."
Thor: "Exactly! Moving on: someone started praying to Zeus? Who's on call for answering prayers to has-beens?"
Petitioner: "It was just a random encounter, you know..."


Nononono. The idea is that you do both, in the same setting.

You have your top demon princes. Most of them are optimized according to their intelligence, and have around 40 HD with proper abilities (class or otherwise). But there's that one prince who just missed the boat and isn't that optimized at all (I mean, still moderately optimized, but let's say he didn't get the memo about Persistomancy). The only reason he's sticking about is that he's got 60 HD and a bazillion natural defences, so he's just a royal pain to kill, and the Abyss respects that (mostly by testing his defences, I imagine, but okay).

Now, this demon prince is totally aware that they've got a lot of HD (not in those terms, of course, but still aware). And the other demon princes never really bother to attack him, so he imagines he's pretty strong. But whenever he actually tries to throw down with Demogorgon or Orcus or Dagon or whoever, he always gets a trashing. And he just can't get it. Surely, with 20 extra HD (50% more!) he should be a dead certain winner? What's up with that? Something must be wrong in the world, it's so unfair! Cue much demonic outrage achieving exactly nothing.

Basically the idea is that you have a mix of optimization levels at a given power "rank", and an occasional outlier who is either a sucker (wizard 20 adventuring with fighter 20), a great hero to their class ("Look, it's the only person in the world who managed to overcome being a straight divine mind!"), or comic relief (i.e. this demon prince--who is also a sucker, but rule of threes and all that).

I would love to have things like that in a game, but I'm not sure how they'd come up.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Well, no. That would be bad role-playing. The gods' stat blocks pretty well demonstrate what level of optimization the GM should roleplay them as capable of understanding.

The GM's own creations should be played at various levels of optimization, from "poor" to GM-level (or above, if they read online guides). But, outside of edge cases (like gaming with the ghost of Gygax), the gods aren't the GM's creation, and maxing out their optimization level to the GM's is as nonsensical as the PCs optimizing Jozan and company to theirs.


The only reason i'd even stat out a godly avatar would be if i expected it to get into a fight with the PC's.
If that happens i want it to be a challenge at least, and to any party with decent optimization the gods as statted are pushovers far before you reach their supposed CR.

So i'm going to optimize them to the level we're playing at, same as i do for most enemies.
Playing in a world of pushovers might be funny for an one-shot, but i don't think it'd be engaging long-term.

[icefractal]

Well, no. That would be bad role-playing. The gods' stat blocks pretty well demonstrate what level of optimization the GM should roleplay them as capable of understanding.

The GM's own creations should be played at various levels of optimization, from "poor" to GM-level (or above, if they read online guides). But, outside of edge cases (like gaming with the ghost of Gygax), the gods aren't the GM's creation, and maxing out their optimization level to the GM's is as nonsensical as the PCs optimizing Jozan and company to theirs.So if I replace "Boccob" with my own homebrew god "Bokkob", who has a very similar personality/portfolio/etc, but makes better choices, that's all legit then? :smallwink:

More substantively, I would say that by playing PCs who don't mechanically resemble example ones at all, they are changing that. They're not optimizing "Jozan", but they are optimizing "the party", and that's the only context Jozan is important in. Is that wrong? Not at all. But neither is the GM doing the same thing.

Most substantively, it's an issue of consistency. Unless the premise is that the PCs are the first ones to reach high levels, or the only ones capable of creativity, then I have to imagine the world having existed before them. And "It would have been easy for any high-ish level caster to overthrow one or more gods, but somehow ... none of them ever did, not even the extremely ambitious ones who supposedly would do anything for power" isn't a consistent world. And neither is "So all these archmages who supposedly studied magic for centuries and understood it in great depth ... never noticed that you could summon powerful things with Gate? Or that Astral Projection is a game-changer?"

Unless, again, the PCs are explicitly special as part of the premise, capable of either power or invention that nobody else, not even supposed geniuses, can ever discover. Which is fine, but it's not like an inherent fixture of all campaigns.

[noob]

So if I replace "Boccob" with my own homebrew god "Bokkob", who has a very similar personality/portfolio/etc, but makes better choices, that's all legit then? :smallwink:

More substantively, I would say that by playing PCs who don't mechanically resemble example ones at all, they are changing that. They're not optimizing "Jozan", but they are optimizing "the party", and that's the only context Jozan is important in. Is that wrong? Not at all. But neither is the GM doing the same thing.

Most substantively, it's an issue of consistency. Unless the premise is that the PCs are the first ones to reach high levels, or the only ones capable of creativity, then I have to imagine the world having existed before them. And "It would have been easy for any high-ish level caster to overthrow one or more gods, but somehow ... none of them ever did, not even the extremely ambitious ones who supposedly would do anything for power" isn't a consistent world. And neither is "So all these archmages who supposedly studied magic for centuries and understood it in great depth ... never noticed that you could summon powerful things with Gate? Or that Astral Projection is a game-changer?"

Unless, again, the PCs are explicitly special as part of the premise, capable of either power or invention that nobody else, not even supposed geniuses, can ever discover. Which is fine, but it's not like an inherent fixture of all campaigns.

In some settings there is archmages that did overthrow some gods but the problem of why npcs do not innovate is that they can do everything they want with wish spam for greater effect and arbitrary plot rituals so they never wondered "I have the ability to summon super powerful creatures why do I never use it?" because they were too busy spamming wish to steal the power of the god of magic or doing a ritual to become the plane of negative energy or something silly like that.
Wish is 100 times more permissive when used by a npc.
So the actual premise is "the universe hates the pcs and grants the smallest amount of wishes possible so they search alternate solutions and also if the pcs tries to say "I read the book giving the tips for the plot ritual of acearak" the gm throws books at them"

Pcs are prevented from using the supreme plot multi tools that cause innovation stagnation in the npcs.

[Kayblis]

The way I run it, God statblocks are only accurate if you manage to have them fight outside their domain, without any deific abilities or minions, and to a level of 'fairness' that could only make sense if you have a way to cut its connection to their DM fiat powers. This usually means a variation of "completely ambushing a god while another, higher tier god supports you without restraint", at which point it's less you fighting a god and more you being a tool of another god for his own purposes.

Demon Lords and Princes are supposedly CR 25~30, but there are creatures far above that in most settings. Why aren't they all killed and eliminated from cosmology? Why don't they kill each other? Why is the Blood War eternal? In truth, it comes down to resources - Demogorgon might be CR 26, but he has dozens of classed Balors serving him, hundreds of greater Mariliths, millions of low-tier demons, hires tens of thousands of Yugoloths, has unique protections in his lair and unique tools to work with, all on top of being a CR26 encounter by himself. This is not a scry-n'-die enemy, this is an enemy that hires people to scry-n'-die others. Even if he himself doesn't have a personal ability to be immune to X, doesn't mean he's vulnerable to X at any given time, no matter what X is. This is not really "unfitting optimization" in my opinion, it's just how things are for the real movers and shakers of any given setting. Sure, give that overlord Toughness x5, let him have his unoptimized feat and class choices. He's not the top dog because of his build, he's the top dog despite his build.

If you run these kinds of creatures as a single monster encounter with only printed abilities and no support, I argue that you're not running a relevant enemy at all. It's not Demogorgon if he's alone in his room waiting flat-footed for his first round in initiative so he can swing his tentacle. It's not actual Orcus if he's sitting in an open field with no undead around, coming back home from buying groceries in the local mart. This is why people think "beating a demon lord is easy", because they think beating a demon lord is just fighting his statblock as if he's a lone orc in the woods.

[noob]

The way I run it, God statblocks are only accurate if you manage to have them fight outside their domain, without any deific abilities or minions, and to a level of 'fairness' that could only make sense if you have a way to cut its connection to their DM fiat powers. This usually means a variation of "completely ambushing a god while another, higher tier god supports you without restraint", at which point it's less you fighting a god and more you being a tool of another god for his own purposes.

Demon Lords and Princes are supposedly CR 25~30, but there are creatures far above that in most settings. Why aren't they all killed and eliminated from cosmology? Why don't they kill each other? Why is the Blood War eternal? In truth, it comes down to resources - Demogorgon might be CR 26, but he has dozens of classed Balors serving him, hundreds of greater Mariliths, millions of low-tier demons, hires tens of thousands of Yugoloths, has unique protections in his lair and unique tools to work with, all on top of being a CR26 encounter by himself. This is not a scry-n'-die enemy, this is an enemy that hires people to scry-n'-die others. Even if he himself doesn't have a personal ability to be immune to X, doesn't mean he's vulnerable to X at any given time, no matter what X is. This is not really "unfitting optimization" in my opinion, it's just how things are for the real movers and shakers of any given setting. Sure, give that overlord Toughness x5, let him have his unoptimized feat and class choices. He's not the top dog because of his build, he's the top dog despite his build.

If you run these kinds of creatures as a single monster encounter with only printed abilities and no support, I argue that you're not running a relevant enemy at all. It's not Demogorgon if he's alone in his room waiting flat-footed for his first round in initiative so he can swing his tentacle. It's not actual Orcus if he's sitting in an open field with no undead around, coming back home from buying groceries in the local mart. This is why people think "beating a demon lord is easy", because they think beating a demon lord is just fighting his statblock as if he's a lone orc in the woods.

With high enough optimisation it does not matters there is an infinity of balors and mariliths around the demon lord: you just kill them all in 0 rounds then kill the demon lord.

[NigelWalmsley]

If that happens i want it to be a challenge at least, and to any party with decent optimization the gods as statted are pushovers far before you reach their supposed CR.

Their builds are pushovers, but the special abilities they get for being gods are broken as hell.


Most substantively, it's an issue of consistency. Unless the premise is that the PCs are the first ones to reach high levels, or the only ones capable of creativity, then I have to imagine the world having existed before them. And "It would have been easy for any high-ish level caster to overthrow one or more gods, but somehow ... none of them ever did, not even the extremely ambitious ones who supposedly would do anything for power" isn't a consistent world. And neither is "So all these archmages who supposedly studied magic for centuries and understood it in great depth ... never noticed that you could summon powerful things with Gate? Or that Astral Projection is a game-changer?"

This is why the AD&D model where the gods are enemies you can just go out and stab to death is better than 3e. Originally, Lolth had 68 hit points and your party could just go out and stab her to death. The 3e decision to try to make the gods into invincible beings with arbitrary power makes the game worse in every conceivable way. Boccob can just be a regular high level Wizard with some extra divine abilities, and if you kill him you can become the God of Magic instead. And the history of the setting can include that happening, like AD&D-based settings (e.g. FR, Malazan) already do.

[Quertus]

The only reason i'd even stat out a godly avatar would be if i expected it to get into a fight with the PC's.
If that happens i want it to be a challenge at least, and to any party with decent optimization the gods as statted are pushovers far before you reach their supposed CR.

So i'm going to optimize them to the level we're playing at, same as i do for most enemies.
Playing in a world of pushovers might be funny for an one-shot, but i don't think it'd be engaging long-term.


Like, I'm not saying a game where you fight the gods and win is wrong, but "the gods are pushovers" includes an unstated and very important "if the PCs are played smart and the gods are played dumb".

Yes, the gods are (generally) pushovers if you don't restat them. You can cheat and restat them to railroad a particular level of challenge, but… well, better to have the PCs kill them at lower levels while they're still a challenge then, IMO, if "challenge" is what you're after. Lolth was first killed in a module by a, what, 12th level party?


So if I replace "Boccob" with my own homebrew god "Bokkob", who has a very similar personality/portfolio/etc, but makes better choices, that's all legit then? :smallwink:

Yes, that would be fine. You aren't badly role-playing the character, or cheating their stats (and history) at that point.


More substantively, I would say that by playing PCs who don't mechanically resemble example ones at all, they are changing that.

Nope. I am who I am, regardless of who you are.


They're not optimizing "Jozan", but they are optimizing "the party", and that's the only context Jozan is important in. Is that wrong? Not at all. But neither is the GM doing the same thing.

Of course the GM can provide challenges appropriate to the party (continent upon the… darn senility… "group agreement" thingy). But, if you're using the published deities, *and* you want them to be a challenge, consider having the party face them at the level where they're still a challenge.

Alternately, consider how to make the gods "a challenge" for my first-level god-slayer. :smallwink:

And I disagree: "Jozan" exists, regardless of the party. He'd be a poor fit at many tables - as would most any character.


Most substantively, it's an issue of consistency. Unless the premise is that the PCs are the first ones to reach high levels, or the only ones capable of creativity, then I have to imagine the world having existed before them. And "It would have been easy for any high-ish level caster to overthrow one or more gods, but somehow ... none of them ever did, not even the extremely ambitious ones who supposedly would do anything for power" isn't a consistent world. And neither is "So all these archmages who supposedly studied magic for centuries and understood it in great depth ... never noticed that you could summon powerful things with Gate? Or that Astral Projection is a game-changer?"

You probably have no idea just how many groups and individuals I've played with over the years in earlier editions who had absolutely no clue what abilities were good.

So, uh, yeah, unless your world has the internet (which is pretty unusual for a D&D world), it's actually horrible role-playing for you to play the average Wizards as if they actually comprehend even half the potential that their abilities give them.


Unless, again, the PCs are explicitly special as part of the premise, capable of either power or invention that nobody else, not even supposed geniuses, can ever discover. Which is fine, but it's not like an inherent fixture of all campaigns.

Play with noobs with no knowledge and no internet access, and get back with me about just how unrealistic this is, for many otherwise intelligent people to just not get it.


It's not Demogorgon if he's alone in his room waiting flat-footed for his first round in initiative so he can swing his tentacle. It's not actual Orcus if he's sitting in an open field with no undead around, coming back home from buying groceries in the local mart.

Strongly agree with this bit. Most beings of power are smart enough to realize that they are neither omnipotent nor invulnerable, and keep "loyal" minions around for protection (and grunt work, and company, and lots of other reasons). Acting otherwise is bad role-playing on the GM's part.

Disagree with most of the rest of your post, but this bit is spot on.

[AlanBruce]

I suppose it’s that time of the year again when players and their PCs want to kill gods.

Here’s the thing: regardless of the core books, splatbooks, obscure 3rd party material. The infamous builds and combos people adhere to with zealous abandon...

We are talking about gods here. Yes, even the fiendish lords and masters of the heavenly host. These beings are where they are for a reason. And yes, I am sure the following argument is quick to arise:

But Deities & Demigods say that...!

That little book, like every other printed, is a list of suggestions, not the absolute truth. You can still be a bonafide badass without having to slay these creatures because, in all honesty, you shouldn’t be able to. Beings of this nature are in a league all of their own. They have cemented their position for ages. Wouldn’t you think anyone else would’ve attempted your strategies prior? And yet they remain.

You can always foil these beings’ plans, certainly. Some of the best stories revolve around that without ending in mailman matches.

Keep the gods where they belong: in the inscrutable. Their presence oft heard, rarely ever felt.

[icefractal]

So, uh, yeah, unless your world has the internet (which is pretty unusual for a D&D world), it's actually horrible role-playing for you to play the average Wizards as if they actually comprehend even half the potential that their abilities give them.Wait, what? :smallconfused: I'm surprised because that's usually the argument given by anti-optimization GMs who claim that using your abilities effectively is bad roleplaying. To which the usual answer here (which I agree with) is "Not using your full abilities, when those abilities represent years of training and mean the difference between life and death, is more likely to be bad roleplaying."

So PCs can and should use their abilities to the fullest, but if NPCs (same class, same background, same mental stats) do that it's 'horrible' roleplaying? That's an interesting kind of logic.

Now if you're saying you'd rather be the one outsmarting NPCs and hitting above your weight class rather than vice-versa - sure, and in fact that's usually my preference too. And most of the time that's fine and doesn't cause any problem to verisimilitude. A Balor can be clowned on by some mid-level adventurers? Yep. Does that mean the Blood War gets ended early? No, because there are a lot of Balors and other demons. People who really utilize their abilities to the utmost are rare, and so a lot of opposition isn't going to be prepared for that.

Rare though, not unique. And in terms of "what threats does a deity have to deal with?", they're all going to be quite rare. So (again, if the campaign premise doesn't have the PCs as uniquely superior), a deity that's so easily defeated and is still around stretches plausibility. Dozens of deities that work like that breaks it into little pieces.

[NigelWalmsley]

Keep the gods where they belong: in the inscrutable. Their presence oft heard, rarely ever felt.

That's never been where the gods belonged. The idea that you could go out and kill the gods has always been a part of D&D. 3e pulled back on it, but that was a mistake. The stats from Deities and Demigods are problematic not because they give people the idea they can kill the gods, but because they push the prospect of doing so past the point where the game breaks down.

[AlanBruce]

This being merely an opinion at this point, previous editions then, did not have an interesting goal in mind when PCs are supposed to bring down pantheons or even a single deity. Some might even say it’s lazy writing.

Third edition did try to correct this via Aspects. But by then, the damage was done. The idea ingrained. The builds in full gear.

Regarding Deities & Demigods, I understand the need to sell books- I own one and the art holds very good for the most part. However, they should’ve stopped each entry with the basic info only, such as Domains granted and fluff.

[Quertus]

That's never been where the gods belonged. The idea that you could go out and kill the gods has always been a part of D&D. 3e pulled back on it, but that was a mistake. The stats from Deities and Demigods are problematic not because they give people the idea they can kill the gods, but because they push the prospect of doing so past the point where the game breaks down.

+1 this. Killing the gods had always been a part of D&D.


Wait, what? :smallconfused: I'm surprised because that's usually the argument given by anti-optimization GMs who claim that using your abilities effectively is bad roleplaying. To which the usual answer here (which I agree with) is "Not using your full abilities, when those abilities represent years of training and mean the difference between life and death, is more likely to be bad roleplaying."

So PCs can and should use their abilities to the fullest, but if NPCs (same class, same background, same mental stats) do that it's 'horrible' roleplaying? That's an interesting kind of logic.


Not even the vaunted Playground uses their abilities to the *fullest*. Just look at any trick discovered in the past 6 months, and realize that the Playground of 6 months ago wasn't that level of optimal.

Before the internet, "highly suboptimal" was the norm. It was the rate few who were able to independently innovate anything even remotely close to an optimal trick or two.

That is what a well-roleplayed Wizard looks like, IMO. If you look at my characters (PCs or NPCs), most are nowhere near Playgrounder level (a few are arguably beyond, at least in their niche).

The gods and the play test PCs aren't built *wrong* or *dumbly* - they're built as well as the designers knew how. And that should tell you something about the average *real* character. If your character is significantly more optimized than that, then, yes, clearly, they *are* special in some way (not necessarily "innovative").

I've got absolutely nothing against the PCs being special - quite the opposite - but I think that it's unfair (and unrealistic) to assume that the Playgrounder Determinator is the norm for most settings.


People who really utilize their abilities to the utmost are rare, and so a lot of opposition isn't going to be prepared for that.

Rare though, not unique. And in terms of "what threats does a deity have to deal with?", they're all going to be quite rare. So (again, if the campaign premise doesn't have the PCs as uniquely superior), a deity that's so easily defeated and is still around stretches plausibility. Dozens of deities that work like that breaks it into little pieces.

I guess that *this* is the part where we differ?

I view the gods as *at best* horrifically out of practice. Like the guy who played MtG back in the 1900s, and just whips out his deck without understanding the modern metagame.

The gods have so much power, and have won for so long, that they often don't realize just how suboptimal they really are.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I've got absolutely nothing against the PCs being special - quite the opposite - but I think that it's unfair (and unrealistic) to assume that the Playgrounder Determinator is the norm for most settings.
I don't think anyone is arguing that. Only that the norm should be (at least influenced by) the PC's optimization level, not TO.

Because at least to me it makes no sense for things like a god of magic to be throwing around unoptimized Fireball's when you have persistomancers, optimized summoners and similar builds running around the world.

I guess that *this* is the part where we differ?

I view the gods as *at best* horrifically out of practice. Like the guy who played MtG back in the 1900s, and just whips out his deck without understanding the modern metagame.

The gods have so much power, and have won for so long, that they often don't realize just how suboptimal they really are.
The problem with that is that it requires any gods of battle-related domains to be completely ignorant of their portfolios. Something that makes absolutely no sense in setting.
Who ever heard of a god of battle who sucked at fighting? It breaks SoD.

[Warmjenkins]

I think it was mentioned in the epic level handbook about the mercanes city never really being assaulted despite dealing with entities far beyond their strength because "there is always a bigger fish" and they have the money to hire them to put down any disruptions.

I don't see why this wouldn't be true for the gods as well. Your level 1000 party of 4-6 TO characters would possibly be able to handle any given diety but what about their group of 8-12 level 2000 true believers that are far more optimized than you could ever dream of and have already put down countless other foolish parties who tried the same thing.

Not to mention most dieties portfolio sense alone means that they would have known about any threat to them and already prepared sufficient countermeasures. I think the best way for a dm to play a diety being attacked is to metagame a perfect solution to anything the party tries after the fact because either through portfolio senses or worshippers predicting the future they should know about any possible threat in great detail long before it ever happens. Basically play it like a bad heist movie; everything you did was just part of their bigger plan all along.

[noob]

I think it was mentioned in the epic level handbook about the mercanes city never really being assaulted despite dealing with entities far beyond their strength because "there is always a bigger fish" and they have the money to hire them to put down any disruptions.

I don't see why this wouldn't be true for the gods as well. Your level 1000 party of 4-6 TO characters would possibly be able to handle any given diety but what about their group of 8-12 level 2000 true believers that are far more optimized than you could ever dream of and have already put down countless other foolish parties who tried the same thing.

Not to mention most dieties portfolio sense alone means that they would have known about any threat to them and already prepared sufficient countermeasures. I think the best way for a dm to play a diety being attacked is to metagame a perfect solution to anything the party tries after the fact because either through portfolio senses or worshippers predicting the future they should know about any possible threat in great detail long before it ever happens. Basically play it like a bad heist movie; everything you did was just part of their bigger plan all along.

In dnd progression caps out at level 21 because you get epic spellcasting at that level and if you did not know how to break the game before the epic spellcasting feat breaks the game without you thinking about it too hard.
So the group of 8-12 true believers at level 2000 would probably not be meaningfully different from the group of level 1000 4-6 TO characters: at that point(since they reached level 21) people travel through time, are monsters born in the far realms retroactively and created the planes through making(not casting) infinitely easy epic spells(dc-infinity) through infinite mitigation and also have infinite armies and have infinities of actions and are infinitely far in the past and traveling further toward the past and the future at once and in a general way the result of one of the pieces on the board being damaged even by the slightest would have impossible to calculate results due to time travel sheanighans.

[GrayDeath]

Just posting to say thanks for hilarious, regular, OP and all the other Posts, as I and my 2 aalmost as Evil Coplayers just realized that we only ahve 3 directions we can go (the Story and our own decisions put us there):
Stay in this completely underpowered (to us) little Crystal Sphere and be its Gods (the DM actually stated that we would not need effort, just about 50 more years of Socuial fu/letting our Minions build stuff to do it) but never leave it, cause we are on 2 Gods ****list for freeing a thing that was buiult to....do things gods dont want, and after doing so and seeing its boring to not be cahllenged, stop playing and start a new game
or
Go on and actually kill Mystril and Iselsine (they are behind the problem that brought us there/tryed to prevent that specific thing from existing a few billion years ago...) and by doing so must become Gods oursleves, and fight off reacting other Gods...until they stop coming
or
Die and start a new Game.

Since this is the first Evil Group that actually has the Initiative, Plans, and is overall fun and WORKS that I have ever played in since....uff, 2003ish?, my choice is no choice at all.

So, will be reading this here thread with a VERY fine tooth comb for at least the next 2 months. :)

[noob]

Just posting to say thanks for hilarious, regular, OP and all the other Posts, as I and my 2 aalmost as Evil Coplayers just realized that we only ahve 3 directions we can go (the Story and our own decisions put us there):
Stay in this completely underpowered (to us) little Crystal Sphere and be its Gods (the DM actually stated that we would not need effort, just about 50 more years of Socuial fu/letting our Minions build stuff to do it) but never leave it, cause we are on 2 Gods ****list for freeing a thing that was buiult to....do things gods dont want, and after doing so and seeing its boring to not be cahllenged, stop playing and start a new game
or
Go on and actually kill Mystril and Iselsine (they are behind the problem that brought us there/tryed to prevent that specific thing from existing a few billion years ago...) and by doing so must become Gods oursleves, and fight off reacting other Gods...until they stop coming
or
Die and start a new Game.

Since this is the first Evil Group that actually has the Initiative, Plans, and is overall fun and WORKS that I have ever played in since....uff, 2003ish?, my choice is no choice at all.

So, will be reading this here thread with a VERY fine tooth comb for at least the next 2 months. :)

None of the three picks seems great so choosing "none of the above" seems a great idea.

[Warmjenkins]

In dnd progression caps out at level 21 because you get epic spellcasting at that level and if you did not know how to break the game before the epic spellcasting feat breaks the game without you thinking about it too hard.
So the group of 8-12 true believers at level 2000 would probably not be meaningfully different from the group of level 1000 4-6 TO characters: at that point(since they reached level 21) people travel through time, are monsters born in the far realms retroactively and created the planes through making(not casting) infinitely easy epic spells(dc-infinity) through infinite mitigation and also have infinite armies and have infinities of actions and are infinitely far in the past and traveling further toward the past and the future at once and in a general way the result of one of the pieces on the board being damaged even by the slightest would have impossible to calculate results due to time travel sheanighans.

I realize you are likely just using the word (not number because remember infinity isn't a number) infinite in a hyperbolic way to make a point and agree that the differences become increasingly minor as the levels of casters break 20 but the fact remains that there is still a difference.

On top of that there are troublesome abilities that epic spellcasting can't emulate or copy, at least without dm approval or fiat, that these followers might well already have. The point being that no matter how powerful a PC gets, there will always be someone stronger out there. Someone who did every single TO trick you did plus that one little thing that tips the scales in their favor. It would get pretty boring pretty quick if that wasn't the case anyway. Who's to say that bigger fish doesn't worship the diety you want to kill?

[noob]

I realize you are likely just using the word (not number because remember infinity isn't a number) infinite in a hyperbolic way to make a point and agree that the differences become increasingly minor as the levels of casters break 20 but the fact remains that there is still a difference.

On top of that there are troublesome abilities that epic spellcasting can't emulate or copy, at least without dm approval or fiat, that these followers might well already have. The point being that no matter how powerful a PC gets, there will always be someone stronger out there. Someone who did every single TO trick you did plus that one little thing that tips the scales in their favor. It would get pretty boring pretty quick if that wasn't the case anyway. Who's to say that bigger fish doesn't worship the diety you want to kill?

No I am not using an hyperbole at all: it is infinities(You stop time and create ice assassins forever(and you do not stop so it results into an actual infinity of ice assassins in the next turn(it never happens from your own view point because you never stop stopping time but you will have all the ice assassins travel to the past and so have all your infinity of ice assassins ready)) infinitely far into the past(epic spellcasting allows to go infinitely far in the past through the spell creation rules: just make any epic spell with dc -infinity) and other things like that) so there is no bonuses to doing one more trick than epic spells for coming infinitely far in the past + infinite everything (actions, ice assassins of everything and so on) and time travel and mistemporality through the far realms so that the gm can never deduce what happens (it is just logically impossible to know what did happen: far realms have time happening in a way that causes a division by 0 and other nonsense like that and there is grandfather paradoxes all the way down: as far as we know any ice assassin you made created all the npcs ever at some point for "keeping the game consistent with what have already been seen" and killing this ice assassin would result into another doing it thus changing the npcs thus getting npcs that would not have been able to beat the previous one and so on).

[Warmjenkins]

No I am not using an hyperbole at all: it is real infinities(You stop time and create ice assassins forever(and you do not stop so it results into an actual infinity of ice assassins in the next turn(it never happens from your own view point because you never stop stopping time but you will have all the ice assassins travel to the past and so have all your infinity of ice assassins ready)) infinitely far into the past(epic spellcasting allows to go infinitely far in the past through the spell creation rules: just make any epic spell with dc -infinity) and other things like that) so there is no bonuses to doing one more trick than epic spells for coming infinitely far in the past + infinite everything (actions, ice assassins of everything and so on) and time travel and mistemporality through the far realms so that the gm can never deduce what happens (it is just logically impossible to know what did happen: far realms have time happening in a way that causes a division by 0 and other nonsense like that and there is grandfather paradoxes all the way down: as far as we know any ice assassin you made created all the npcs ever at some point for "keeping the game consistent with what have already been seen" and killing this ice assassin would result into another doing it thus changing the npcs thus getting npcs that would not have been able to beat the previous one and so on).

But infinity is a concept not a number. Not even gonna get into the fact that time is finite and how time stops and such actually work because that is far to messy and off topic. Infinity is as much a number a blue or round are numbers. You literally cannot have a minus infinity dc in the same way you can't have a minus big dc or minus carrot dc. It gets much more complicated the more you get into indeterminate forms and hyperreal numbers but hopefully you get the gist of it.

All far realm mechanics are dm fiat, the players cannot in any way influence them or abuse them because they can't comprehend them. As soon as you step into or even perceive the far realm in any way, even causing an epic spell to effect it through a proxy you open yourself to turning every version of yourself who ever existed into a pile a spiders. Why? Because waffle feet, that's how the far realm works. Or perhaps doesn't work is a better way to say it.

As far as npcs being created by things you did, that is all also dm fiat territory. Time is expressly finite in 3.5 as described by the mind flayers coming from "the very end of time". There is no "infinitely far into the past". Also remember that "time," "the flow of time," "perception of time" and "the effects of time" are wholly distinct from each other.

Edit: also as far as "the gm can never deduce what happens" the gm can always deduce what happens. If they can't you aren't playing d&d anymore. The gm can deduce, decide, and change what happens. A good gm should strive to keep a consistent world, but as soon as you choose to leave that consistent world behind you can't complain if some "inconsistent" things happen to your character. Things beyond your comprehension and control.

[noob]

But infinity is a concept not a number. Not even gonna get into the fact that time is finite and how time stops and such actually work because that is far to messy and off topic. Infinity is as much a number a blue or round are numbers. You literally cannot have a minus infinity dc in the same way you can't have a minus big dc or minus carrot dc. It gets much more complicated the more you get into indeterminate forms and hyperreal numbers but hopefully you get the gist of it.

All far realm mechanics are dm fiat, the players cannot in any way influence them or abuse them because they can't comprehend them. As soon as you step into or even perceive the far realm in any way, even causing an epic spell to effect it through a proxy you open yourself to turning every version of yourself who ever existed into a pile a spiders. Why? Because waffle feet, that's how the far realm works. Or perhaps doesn't work is a better way to say it.

As far as npcs being created by things you did, that is all also dm fiat territory. Time is expressly finite in 3.5 as described by the mind flayers coming from "the very end of time". There is no "infinitely far into the past". Also remember that "time," "the flow of time," "perception of time" and "the effects of time" are wholly distinct from each other.

Edit: also as far as "the gm can never deduce what happens" the gm can always deduce what happens. If they can't you aren't playing d&d anymore. The gm can deduce, decide, and change what happens. A good gm should strive to keep a consistent world, but as soon as you choose to leave that consistent world behind you can't complain if some "inconsistent" things happen to your character. Things beyond your comprehension and control.

Infinity is a number like any other if you place yourself in the right ensemble and dnd does not specifies which ensemble of number you are supposed to use.
If you think time stop does not work then just use celerity: there is no ambiguities in the rules: if you have an unlimited amount of celerities you can do as many actions as you want in a turn.
Also dnd have a lot of infinite things: for example most of the planes are infinite so you just have to "use celerities to place an ice assassin on each square of that plane" and you have an infinity of ice assassins no matter if it is a number or not you have one of it and it does not matters that from your own view point you never finish placing them because next round all your ice assassins time travels.
You can really get infinities in dnd and a lot of things are natively infinite.
And it is not about the character: it is about time itself: in the far realms 10 minutes happens for each 0 round in the material plane(it is expressed that way) so you need to divide by 0 to find how much time did happen in the far realm when 1 round happened in the material plane.
It is written in a clear way and it is not dm fiat that you need to divide by 0.
As for the npcs the solution is simple: kill all npcs that were not made by you when they are born and replace them by npcs made by you.
You do this only because you want the adventure to be as it was when you started adventuring so that you do not find you to never have existed as you are currently just because some npcs involved with making you be you never existed else you would just remove all the npcs before they are born.
At that point what you described as "the gm can always say something happened" corresponds to you saying "the gm should give up simulating" and if they do that because it is the only way to beat the player characters then it means the gm could not out TO them and resorted to the equivalent of "rocks falls you die" and the gm did not actually defeat the players he only removed the characters through the use of the ability to not simulate the world but instead directly choose outcomes and it proves nothing about the superiority of the TO skills of the gm because even a parrot can say "rocks falls you die"
You could say "but sarrukhs have alter shape" but sarrukhs were not here at the creation of the world so a time traveller could prevent the sarrukhs from ever being born.

Also no rules says that there is a start to time nor that if there was one you would be unable to go back further.

You do not have the mentality needed to gm at a 100% rule simulation table.

[Quertus]

Sigh.

AFB, but IIRC you can't get epic spells at level 21.

You cannot create infinity ice assassins. You have the *infinite* potential to create however *arbitrary* high a number of ice assassins you want, and, if you have the ability to accurately measure the scene, that amounts to however much power you need, or however much more power than that you want, but not *technically* actual infinity.

Sure, one would expect, at the same optimization level, level 2,000 characters to be stronger than level 1,000 characters. Particularly if the former are also more numerous. However, that doesn't do the god any good, as he's still dead… and now his followers don't have spells.

Also, anyone who has claimed that the gods are just too good for all this? They doubtless haven't done the world-building to accommodate those level 2,000 characters.

So, no matter how you slice it, so long as the world is run reasonably and consistently, the god is still dead.

EDIT: oh, right, the god of war being ignorant of their domain? Yeah, that's… pretty much to be expected in D&D, tbh. I haven't read anything that *hasn't* made the gods come off better than bumbling buffoons yet. See also the excellent depiction of Thor, middle manager.

-----


I don't think anyone is arguing that. Only that the norm should be (at least influenced by) the PC's optimization level, not TO.

I would argue that this is backwards: *perhaps* the PCs optimization level should be influenced by the optimization level of the world. Maybe. But the world should exist regardless of the PCs, and not be fudged into place as a reaction to them.

[GrayDeath]

None of the three picks seems great so choosing "none of the above" seems a great idea.

Trust me, we tried.

Without retconning, or simply "ignoring" the situation, these are our options.

And no, nothing even approaching "RAW for RAWs sake" readings will work, so neither infinite nor usually more than a hand ful of Simulacri/Ice Assassins, and the plane is time locked, so....yeah.

Still gonna focus on this here thread for inspouration, nut NOT for " clear" solutions, as we enjoy coming up with the exact steps ourselves.

[Warmjenkins]

Infinity is a number like any other if you place yourself in the right ensemble and dnd does not specifies which ensemble of number you are supposed to use.
If you think time stop does not work then just use celerity: there is no ambiguities in the rules: if you have an unlimited amount of celerities you can do as many actions as you want in a turn.
Also dnd have a lot of infinite things: for example most of the planes are infinite so you just have to "use celerities to place an ice assassin on each square of that plane" and you have an infinity of ice assassins no matter if it is a number or not you have one of it and it does not matters that from your own view point you never finish placing them because next round all your ice assassins time travels.
You can really get infinities in dnd and a lot of things are natively infinite.
And it is not about the character: it is about time itself: in the far realms 10 minutes happens for each 0 round in the material plane(it is expressed that way) so you need to divide by 0 to find how much time did happen in the far realm when 1 round happened in the material plane.
It is written in a clear way and it is not dm fiat that you need to divide by 0.
As for the npcs the solution is simple: kill all npcs that were not made by you when they are born and replace them by npcs made by you.
You do this only because you want the adventure to be as it was when you started adventuring so that you do not find you to never have existed as you are currently just because some npcs involved with making you be you never existed else you would just remove all the npcs before they are born.
At that point what you described as "the gm can always say something happened" corresponds to you saying "the gm should give up simulating" and if they do that because it is the only way to beat the player characters then it means the gm could not out TO them and resorted to the equivalent of "rocks falls you die" and the gm did not actually defeat the players he only removed the characters through the use of the ability to not simulate the world but instead directly choose outcomes and it proves nothing about the superiority of the TO skills of the gm because even a parrot can say "rocks falls you die"
You could say "but sarrukhs have alter shape" but sarrukhs were not here at the creation of the world so a time traveller could prevent the sarrukhs from ever being born.

Also no rules says that there is a start to time nor that if there was one you would be unable to go back further.

You do not have the mentality needed to gm at a 100% rule simulation table.

I think you missed all of my points somehow. It comes across as you being intentionally obtuse and missing the point on purpose but I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just really didn't grasp any of the concepts.

Infinity isn't a number, it can be used to describe numbers in the same way big, small, round, whole and a plethora of other words can. I purposefully used some of those words hoping you might draw the conclusion yourself. Id recommend picking up a calculus book if you want to know more.

It seems like you're trying to play two separate games here. You say the gm can't just say things happen but seem to think the players are allowed to just say things happen this way. When you start messing with powers beyond your control or comprehension but seem to think you get to just decide the outcome it is more realistic to the simulation of a believable world that something goes horribly wrong. Especially as soon as you try to start messing with the far realm and just telling the gm "this is what happens because I abused an incomprehensible and undefined concept"... well its not surprising something incomprehensible and undefined happened to you then. The result of dividing by zero is undefined so by RAW you character is now undefined upon interacting with the far realm, good job hope it was fun while it lasted.

You don't get to just say what happens, you don't know what will happen as a result of any action you take. Just like real life the world of any d&d setting can be unpredictable. If that wasn't true there would be no reason to play. The crazier and less defined your actions are the less ability you will have to predict the outcome. You say what you character tries to do and the gm tells you what happens as a result. The rules are there to aid in determining those results but they can't and don't cover everything. Everything not covered needs to be handled by the dm.

Also remember that time stop doesn't stop time, neither does celerity. Nothing in either of them say the laws physics stop applying to you. Also they can both be easily countered before you can ever start your TO loops, and you are the one that opened that box of trying to abuse physics to your advantage despite lacking an understanding of them. Don't be surprised when you plan implodes or draws the attention of a bigger fish. That seems most conducive of a 100% simulation table as an explanation why it hasn't happened countless times before.

Also clearly you don't understand the first thing about physics and time if you think there is a "further back" than the start of time. I think a start of time was mentioned in the aboleth origins or far realm lore but im away from my books atm to confirm it.


Sigh.
Sure, one would expect, at the same optimization level, level 2,000 characters to be stronger than level 1,000 characters. Particularly if the former are also more numerous. However, that doesn't do the god any good, as he's still dead… and now his followers don't have spells.


Except the god isn't dead because they were protected by their army of powerful allies. This isnt to imply that the God in question is competent necessarily. Idiots can still be TO optimized, as I've seen plenty of evidence for both irl an online, and can worship a God for any number of reasons. Perhaps they don't even worship them at all and simply see value in maintaining the status quo. After all there are some things that gods can do but mortals can't. Also never said the followers gained spells from their god, wizards can be true believers.

[Quertus]

Except the god isn't dead because they were protected by their army of powerful allies. This isnt to imply that the God in question is competent necessarily. Idiots can still be TO optimized, as I've seen plenty of evidence for both irl an online, and can worship a God for any number of reasons. Perhaps they don't even worship them at all and simply see value in maintaining the status quo. After all there are some things that gods can do but mortals can't. Also never said the followers gained spells from their god, wizards can be true believers.

If you cannot kill the helpless princess (ie, the deity), when they are protected by a group of your rough equals or nominal superiors, you probably either aren't playing D&D, or aren't trying.

Touché about the followers, though - I had taken it to mean Clerics; in retrospect, it's easy to see how that need not be the case.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I would argue that this is backwards: *perhaps* the PCs optimization level should be influenced by the optimization level of the world. Maybe. But the world should exist regardless of the PCs, and not be fudged into place as a reaction to them.
It would be if you were building a world for yourself that your players then get to play in, but at least to me the standard assumption is that it's a shared experience.
You're building a world for your players to explore and have fun with.

Their builds are the only thing the players have direct control over. They should certainly adjust to the rough level of the rest of the party, but that's really all that can be realistically expected.
Even if you wrote down every little detail of your campaign setting and all your players were willing to read through it you'd hardly want them to see the statblocks of their enemies before the campaign has even started. So there is no realistic way for them to adjust to whatever powerlevel you're imagining.

So in order to create a fun and engaging experience for the group the DM has to adjust the world to the PC's, because the players lack the knowledge to do the reverse and can't be given access to it without spoiling the entire experience.

And i don't really consider adjusting a few numbers or swapping some feats "changing the world". The world exists mostly in fluff, not mechanics. Those merely exist as an interface.
It's up to me as the DM to determine how powerful monsters and NPCs are supposed to be relative to the party, so adjusting them to the PC's powerlevel is merely me staying true to the feel of the setting.

To give an example, if i ever used him i'd consider it a far greater break from the setting if Elminster was a pushover than if i adjust his build to live up to the fluff declaring him a Big Deal.

[Warmjenkins]

To give an example, if i ever used him i'd consider it a far greater break from the setting if Elminster was a pushover than if i adjust his build to live up to the fluff declaring him a Big Deal.

This. It is far more realistic that there is a reason for the legends about these gods and heroes to exists rather than every legend is wrong and the party is just that special. That reason doesn't always have to be that their stat blocks are wrong but it is certainly an acceptable answer. Perhaps those stats only represent a proxy or aspect of the real hero/god or maybe they are just the front man for someone more powerful behind the scenes. In any case the least realistic and least believable scenario is that they are really that weak and for no reason whatsoever no one has ever killed them yet.

As far as the sandbox style of campaign that quertus seems to enjoy most it can actually work with very little adjustments to npc stats and monsters ect... but it requires some very specific things from both the player and gm. It's actually my preferred way to both play and run games but im lucky enough to have had the same playgroup for over 20 years now so we all know exactly the expected level of play and can build around that. No one would ever try to pull some TO or RAW shenanigans because we are all better people than that and don't want to ruin anyone's fun. If you aren't lucky enough to have a group that knows each other that well then yes, you should absolutely balance things to the table. But remember that balance goes both ways.

Part of playing in a simulation or sandbox style world though is accepting that the players aren't particularly special or powerful. They are just people living in a world much bigger than them. They can easily get themselves killed if they decide to attack someone stronger or wander into an obviously over level area. If someone decides to start messing with reality or powers beyond their understanding and pulling questionable TO tricks to try and break the game; they shouldn't be surprised to learn they aren't the first to try those tricks and that the ones who got there first pulled the ladder up behind them and set various traps and contingencies to ensure no one else gets to do the same stuff. After all once you get to that position of power it makes sense to want to preserve the status quo and stop threats before they are capable of actually hurting you or worse, breaking all of reality because they don't know what they are doing.

[icefractal]

See I wouldn't go that far. A sandbox is orthogonal to this, and feeling plausible doesn't require that the PCs are ordinary, it just requires that they're not the only ones who can think of things.

If the PCs are 1/1000 or even 1/million, in terms of effective strength for their level, that's still fine. In fact I wouldn't pick D&D for a game where the PCs were truly ordinary. But the deities, as the top dogs with the biggest targets on their backs, have had to deal with a number of 1/million people.

[Warmjenkins]

Yeah, worded that a bit poorly I suppose. I don't mean ordinary in comparison to the average person in the world but more ordinary as in there are plenty of other adventurers out there, some stronger snd some weaker. But they aren't the only ones effecting change in the world. The world doesn't revolve around them and until they perform enough deeds to be recognized by townsfolk, local lords, then kings and so on.

[Quertus]

It would be if you were building a world for yourself that your players then get to play in, but at least to me the standard assumption is that it's a shared experience.
You're building a world for your players to explore and have fun with.

This might be too abstract and philosophical to discuss yet, given how we have much more concrete areas of disconnect, but consider a module like… Red Hand of Doom, that has been played by numerous groups throughout the years.


Their builds are the only thing the players have direct control over.

Yup.

Which is why you shouldn't remove their agency to choose their optimization level relative to the world.


So there is no realistic way for them to adjust to whatever powerlevel you're imagining.


So in order to create a fun and engaging experience for the group the DM has to adjust the world to the PC's, because the players lack the knowledge to do the reverse and can't be given access to it without spoiling the entire experience.

Demonstrably false, on two counts.

1) all you have to do is create sample PCs that would hit the median expected power level. See my modus operandi.

2) the PCs don't have to be finely calibrated to the setting for the group to have fun. See my stories of "Not!Thor and the Sentient Potted Plant".

Also, by your logic, "well, we all created TO characters who go infinite at level 1 again" is good behavior, because they're all balanced to each other. I don't think that most Playgrounders will agree that this is an acceptable outcome.


And i don't really consider adjusting a few numbers or swapping some feats "changing the world". The world exists mostly in fluff, not mechanics. Those merely exist as an interface.
It's up to me as the DM to determine how powerful monsters and NPCs are supposed to be relative to the party, so adjusting them to the PC's powerlevel is merely me staying true to the feel of the setting.

This might also be too abstract and philosophical for this point in the discussion, but I find most "fiction-first" thinking to produce incoherent worlds that don't match the mechanics. I find it easier to follow mechanics first, and choose a fiction that actually matches the mechanics.

That is, rather than trying to shoehorn in my completely unoptimized 1st level godslayer, I prefer to let the mechanics dictate what is reasonable.


To give an example, if i ever used him i'd consider it a far greater break from the setting if Elminster was a pushover than if i adjust his build to live up to the fluff declaring him a Big Deal.

Have you really read the fluff & stories? Elminster isn't just not at the level of a Playgrounder, he's a tactical nitwit of a Marty Stu. Ed Greenwood has been kind enough to publish enough books to drive that fact home with more than ample evidence.

Elminster and the defective deities all add up perfectly, making Elminster a big fish in an inbred pond. Nothing needs adjusting.


This. It is far more realistic that there is a reason for the legends about these gods and heroes to exists rather than every legend is wrong and the party is just that special.

Have you even considered that the legends aren't wrong, but the party *is* that special?

Have you ever considered that, if you're changing things in the fly, you're likely to *make* the legends wrong?


In any case the least realistic and least believable scenario is that they are really that weak and for no reason whatsoever no one has ever killed them yet.

People have killed the gods and/or their avatars for a long time. 1e even had it as part of a module. You're decades behind!


See I wouldn't go that far. A sandbox is orthogonal to this, and feeling plausible doesn't require that the PCs are ordinary, it just requires that they're not the only ones who can think of things.

Agreed. I see no reason to comment further.


If the PCs are 1/1000 or even 1/million, in terms of effective strength for their level, that's still fine. In fact I wouldn't pick D&D for a game where the PCs were truly ordinary. But the deities, as the top dogs with the biggest targets on their backs, have had to deal with a number of 1/million people.

At one end, I've played PCs who were decidedly below average. Actually, one of my complaints about "Halls of the High King", by Ed Greenwood, was that all of the statted NPCs (yes, even the generic, unnamed NPCs) were all *better* than the PCs (to the tune of "lowest stat is a 13") - it would have been better for the PCs to give all their gear to a random porter, and let *them* complete the adventure instead. But if I'm not being *forced* to play the worst character in the world, I might actually *choose* for my character to be, oh, I dunno, tactically inept, or a sentient potted plant, to enjoy that experience.

OTOH, my BDH party was fun. To the best of my recollection, they never once encountered anything as optimized as they were. They didn't wade through *everything* like they were humans - some foes were powerful (but not optimized) enough to make them take notice, or (*gasp*) actually consider *thinking* about their tactics. So I see absolutely no reason not to allow the PCs to be the most optimized beings in the world, if that's what the players want - we did it, it was loads of fun.

[icefractal]

So I see absolutely no reason not to allow the PCs to be the most optimized beings in the world, if that's what the players want - we did it, it was loads of fun.Sure, I don't see an inherent problem either - I'd call that part of the premise though, like if the PCs were the only ones who could exceed E6, or the only ones with Psionics, or whatnot. Like at the point where the PCs are setting up magic factories and everyone else up to and including deities are standing around going "Should I put these free buff spells on myself? Nah, no need." then I think we have to assume the PCs are metaphysically special.

I've got an idea for a campaign sort of based on that premise (and The Matrix), which I haven't run because of logistics:
* The world is 'false' - it's the minimum possible, pretending to be much larger. The "prime material" is actually limited in size and loops around once you get significantly beyond the inhabited area. The other planes are even worse - for example, the Plane of Fire is really just the City of Brass and a few miles around it. There's only a couple dozen layers of the abyss and some of them could fit inside a large conference center.
* Everything is in almost-stasis, and there's a subtle mental control that doesn't allow anyone to break it. Not like you try and your body won't move, more like you just never have the thought that would lead to doing so.
* The PCs are a group of people who noticed something was wrong and were contacted by the last person who tried to break things open - a person who's now been mostly erased from existence but lingers as a vestige.
* There's a crack in the world, and by destroying artifacts and towing the resulting Spheres of Annihilation to the crack, they can widen it. Make it wide enough, and they'll be able to break free. But maybe before they do so, they should find out why the world is like it is - a prison? an escape pod from a dying multiverse? a toy created by an outside being? How many of the people in it are real? Are the PCs even real?
* Progression happens sideways - the PCs start with existing Paizo NPC stats, and by widening the crack they can change their skills/feats, rebuild entirely, use 3PP material, and eventually use 3.5/3.0 material.
* Once the crack widens enough, Agents (as in the Matrix) start showing up. Unlike the rest of the world, they recognize what the PCs are doing, and they are optimized, usually in very single-purpose ways, but still fairly rigid in their thinking.
* What happens if they crack things open? Idk, there are a lot of possibilities and I haven't decided what would work the best. As mentioned, there are significant logistical issues in actually running this, so it's more of a concept for now.

[GrayDeath]

Sounds like a neat Idea. ^^

[ShurikVch]

People who're arguing there about how "easy to kill" are deities as-written, probably, missed one important moment: most of deities are Outsiders without the Native subtype.
So, you killed them?
Big deal!
They would respawn shortly in their respective Godly Realm.
May even congratulate your PC, and give them a t-shirt or something...

[Quertus]

People who're arguing there about how "easy to kill" are deities as-written, probably, missed one important moment: most of deities are Outsiders without the Native subtype.
So, you killed them?
Big deal!
They would respawn shortly in their respective Godly Realm.
May even congratulate your PC, and give them a t-shirt or something...

Absolutely haven't missed it - it's been in the rules since at least 2e that deities cannot be "killed" killed outside their realm.