Why no one talked about new blade singer extra attack?

[shipiaozi]

Tasha version of blade singer's extra attack class feature allows character to replace one of those attack with cantrip, seems author tried to improve a very weak wizard archetype which is nice. However, the desciption is worded as grab, means blade singer could cast two cantrips with one action, which is extremely overpowered.

First, Hexblade singer become the best eldritch build.

Second, multiclass wizard 6 become an awesome option for almost every non-caster class, it's almost like 3 attacks at lv6.

[rlc]

A lot of people have been talking about it.
I’m not sure if anybody has asked for sag on it yet, but most people are pretty sure that the RAI is that only one attack can be replaced by a cantrip.

[GeoffWatson]

It says "one". Why do people think it says "two" or "any number"?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

It says "one". Why do people think it says "two" or "any number"?

To be honest you can read it as:
You can switch attacks for cantrips in a ratio of 1 cantrip per attack.
If they added something like "ones per action" to the second sentence the only option was two attacks or one attack and one cantrip.


Extra Attack
6th-level Bladesinging feature

You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.

[MoiMagnus]

It says "one". Why do people think it says "two" or "any number"?

When I read "you can buy one French baguette for one euro", I usually assume that this trade is not limited to only once per person. "One" does not always mean "only once", it depends on the context and a lot of implicit assumptions. And the thing about implicit assumptions is that not everyone makes the same.
[And that's even more the case for non-native speaker like me, as I come from a different linguistic background compared to native speakers.]

[clash]

I mean sure but if pizza hut has a deal that includes two medium pizzas and states you can substitute 1 of those pizzas for wings, do you expect that you can get two sets of wings? I would argue very definitively no.

[AttilatheYeon]

Extra Attack
6th-level Bladesinging feature

You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.

The common reading of the second case of one would indicate that you can only replace one or a attack with a cantrip. Had the wording been "you can replace one of your cantrips in place of a attack" it would be more ambiguous. Hope this helps.

[Bobthewizard]

Here's the ability

"You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks."

It ends with "in place of one of those attacks." That refers to using the attacks action on your turn, so the analogy of once per lifetime is absurd. It is also very clear that it is replacing "one of those attacks", not each of those attacks. You can "cast one of your cantrips" not two cantrips with this ability.

In order to be used twice in one attack action, the second sentence would need to say you can cast a cantrip in place of an attack. Compare the wording for this feature to the wording for grappling or shoving where you can replace each attack. "Using the Attack action, you can make a Special melee Attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this Attack replaces one of them."

The wording for blade singer clearly limits you to once per attack action.

[Gtdead]

Tasha version of blade singer's extra attack class feature allows character to replace one of those attack with cantrip, seems author tried to improve a very weak wizard archetype which is nice. However, the desciption is worded as grab, means blade singer could cast two cantrips with one action, which is extremely overpowered.

First, Hexblade singer become the best eldritch build.

Second, multiclass wizard 6 become an awesome option for almost every non-caster class, it's almost like 3 attacks at lv6.

I talked about this reading but honestly, 2 cantrips per attack action is too much. Even if you can technically read it like that, I wouldn't allow it.

[jaappleton]

We talked about it quite extensively when I shared the leaks like a month ago.

[KorvinStarmast]

The wording for blade singer clearly limits you to once per attack action. Indeed; it seems to take a willful misreading to arrive at any other conclusion.

[AttilatheYeon]

Indeed; it seems to take a willful misreading to arrive at any other conclusion.

Let's slow that roll. It's pretty obvious the OP is not a native English speaker. So some of the nuances of English may be lost on him. If he were a native speaker, i'd agree, but he's not.

[CMCC]

We’ve already had the one or two cantrips discussion.

The number “one” means one and not two. There is no good faith reading that allows for two cantrips here.

[Segev]

This feels like something best asked of DMs. Though I’ll point out that the original blade singer kit’s primary schtick was to cast with one hand and attack with the other. So it seems obvious to me that this is intended to enable that classic behavior.

But if a DM thinks two cantrips is fine, so what?

[Vorenus]

In my opinion, Bladesingers have always been a good Wizard option. This option to substitute a cantrip for an attack just makes them better.

[cutlery]

This has been discussed thoroughly here and elsewhere in the last few weeks.

[Damon_Tor]

We’ve already had the one or two cantrips discussion.

The number “one” means one and not two. There is no good faith reading that allows for two cantrips here.

So get two levels of fighter for action surge. Fighter 2, Bladesinger 6, Warlock 2, Sorcerer 3. Cast Haste on yourself. 4 Eldritch Blasts in one turn plus 2 weapon attacks.

[CMCC]

In my opinion, Bladesingers have always been a good Wizard option. This option to substitute a cantrip for an attack just makes them better.

Prior to this change, they weren't a particularly good gish subclass. Too far to the casting extreme with little incentive to use a weapon. That has thankfully changed.


So get two levels of fighter for action surge. Fighter 2, Bladesinger 6, Warlock 2, Sorcerer 3. Cast Haste on yourself. 4 Eldritch Blasts in one turn plus 2 weapon attacks.

If you're casting EB twice (from action surge), isn't that 6 blasts? What does haste do here? Add one attack for a total of 3 weapon attacks?

[TotallyNotEvil]

It's funny, I was actually thinking the exact same thing as the OP. I expected to see a bunch of topics on the new Bladesinger, but maybe I just missed everything?

Or everyone was busy trying to argue it's two cantrips instead of one.

Prior to this change, they weren't a particularly good gish subclass. Too far to the casting extreme with little incentive to use a weapon. That has thankfully changed.



If you're casting EB twice (from action surge), isn't that 6 blasts? What does haste do here? Add one attack for a total of 3 weapon attacks?
I thought 6 too, but I believe the Sorc levels are there for two Quickened EBs?

So 4 castings of EB, so 12d10+12*CHA and then two hits. Call it twenty damage from the melee hits?

It's not a small amount of damage, totalling what, 100-150-ish depending on your stats?

But you spent 13 levels to do this once a day, and that's assuming everything hits.

Not a terribly good investment, IMO.

[Silpharon]

So get two levels of fighter for action surge. Fighter 2, Bladesinger 6, Warlock 2, Sorcerer 3. Cast Haste on yourself. 4 Eldritch Blasts in one turn plus 2 weapon attacks.

Please explain yourself. I see:
Quickened bonus action: Eldritch Blast
Attack action: Eldritch Blast and 1 standard attack
Attack action: Eldritch Blast and 1 standard attack
Haste extra attack: 1 standard attack

3 EBs and 3 standard attacks. You don't get haste attack twice, and the special extra attack feature only affects standard attack actions. You also don't get an extra bonus action from Action Surge.

Personally I'd rather do this with Bladesinger 6/Fighter 2/Artificer Artillerist 5 with the new All-Purpose Tool providing the Eldritch Blast cantrip in Int flavor, an Arcane Firearm 1d8 boost instead of agonizing blast, and a Metamagic Adept feat. For the standard attacks, maybe 3 magic stones created in the previous round. All Int-based goodness.

While I'm at it, let's say Hex was picked up through Fey Touched feat. Let's check damage then, assuming you got to level 17 through more levels and have 20 Int.

3 Eldritch Blasts: 3*(4.5+4*(5.5+3.5))=121.5
3 Magic Stones: 4.5+3*(3.5+3.5+5)=40.5
Total: 162 average damage assuming everything hits

That's decent.

To fill out the build, I'd probably go Bladesinger 6/Psi Warrior 3/Artillerist 11. The Psi Warrior damage boost would effect one of the magic stones if used with a sling for a slight boost (8.5 avg). Level 11 Artificer is just a great break point for SSI, and on Artillerist you get the wonderful Scorching Ray + Tiny Servant combo... But I digress.