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Grynning
2007-11-05, 06:57 AM
I've been thinking a lot lately about the trendy things in melee optimization, especially the charger builds. However, some discussion on another thread got me thinking about an issue I ran into in an Epic game: AoO's.

Charge does not bypass AoO's in any way, and if you charge a creature who out-reaches you, it's going to get at least one on you before you unload your ridiculous 1-1/2 Str +60 or w/e full attack on it. Since you're dumping all your AC into the power attack, it's probably going to hit. Since most creatures that will out-reach a powerful build monkey-grip melee guy are really, really big and strong, it's probably going to hurt. If they have Improved Grab, which many do (dragons being a notable exception), they can stop your attack from ever happening.

Also, the AC penalty from Charge/Shock Trooper lasts for the rest of the turn, so if there is more than one opponent (also likely), Mr. Charger better have a lot of HP. Seems like a bit of a weakness in this build to me.

So, my question, is this so great of a weakness as to prevent the Uber-charger from being a dominant force in actual gameplay? Is it only good for hypothetical PvP matches?

Discuss.

Amiria
2007-11-05, 07:03 AM
When you are at reach disadvantage you shouldn't charge. But it is very easy to get good reach.

You ideally charge with a reach weapon. And under the effect of an Enlarge Person spell from your friendly neighborhood mage. 10 ft. reach should be enough to compete with most monsters. 20 ft. reach for the really big ones and to get more crazy damage AoOs from Shock Trooper.

Arbitrarity
2007-11-05, 07:06 AM
The normal hypothetical Uber-Charger is actually colossal with a reach weapon. So no.

Hehe.. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=401662)

Typical builds though? Yeah, possibly. Get a reach weapon, dip some psywar for bonus feats/expansion/psionic lion's charge.

Grynning
2007-11-05, 07:07 AM
Doesn't that make the build a bit too situational though? And I still think that having basically no AC each round after you charge would be a huge detriment if there are multiple opponents.

Reel On, Love
2007-11-05, 07:10 AM
Sacrificing your AC is meant to be a weakness. A proper Shock Trooper covers for this weakness somehow--tripping, Combat Reflexes plus Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit (meaning you hit back at that huge damage bonus whenever someone hits you), and other options.

Keld Denar
2007-11-05, 07:15 AM
A good shocktrooper build will either KILL anything it charges via full PA pouncing headless charge for 500ish+ damage, OR since your AC is now tanked down to the lower layers of the Infinite Abyss, you enter an aggressive battle stance (Karmic Strike and/or Robilar's Gambit) so that you can continue pumping another couple damage into your opponent while they are hitting you. With luck, you'll drop them before they finish their full attack.

You also have at least 10' reach as mentioned above.

The REAL flaw is that if the monster has PA too (and a lot of big ones do, or at least should with a little DM rewrite), is that now the baddy can PA you back, also for full. And his BAB will probably be higher than yours. And with an AC of around -6 or so, he'll hit you on everything but a 1, even with full PA.

Thats why you take Elusive Target! Immunity to PA. Its kind of feat intensive, but you need Dodge anyway to get Karmic Strike, so its only 2 more feats. ET also has some other nice features, but negating PA is the ultimate ability of the feat.

Grynning
2007-11-05, 07:15 AM
That's quite a few required feats (Karmic Strike requires dodge and combat expertise). Also, has there been any sort of consensus or official ruling on whether Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit in conjuction actually allow two AoO's for each attack? I'm not sure that they would, given that in general you can't provoke two AoO's from one opponent for the same action (moving out of a space, casting, etc).

Edit: By the way, I'm not disputing that an Uber-Charger will kill the single target it charges. My problem is you will probably die as well in the process with no AC, especially if there are many opponents. Remember, you still take the damage from the hits while you're using RG or KS.

deadseashoals
2007-11-05, 07:16 AM
Have your cleric cast freedom of movement on you to account for this particular problem. There will always be other problems, but getting grabbed isn't a huge deal in high level play thanks to freedom of movement.

BTW it's easy for dragons to get improved grab - just take the Snatch feat.

Swooper
2007-11-05, 07:24 AM
That's quite a few required feats (Karmic Strike requires dodge and combat expertise). Also, has there been any sort of consensus or official ruling on whether Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit in conjuction actually allow two AoO's for each attack? I'm not sure that they would, given that in general you can't provoke two AoO's from one opponent for the same action (moving out of a space, casting, etc).
They do work togeather actually. Robilar's Gambit gets an AoO for every attack that is rolled against you, Karmic Strike gets an AoO for every attack that actually HITS. Notice the difference.

Spiryt
2007-11-05, 07:27 AM
Well, the biggest problem for Shock Trooper (despite of casters, but this is unfortunately obvious in D&D:smallyuk: ) are archers.

Many melee enemies - not so much as he can kee killing themn round after round if they are dispersed. And if they'r crowded, Cleave, RG e.c will help take them down faster.


Remember, you still take the damage from the hits while you're using RG or KS.

Of course. I think that the problem is that the Schock Trooper is just solid melee build and is still quite balanced with other stuff. They'r not "I win all" as batman, you know.

Grynning
2007-11-05, 07:32 AM
Karmic Strike activates when you are hit, and Robilar's when they attack, yes, but Robilar's doesn't resolve until after the enemies attack. It would seem that you would still only get one AoO, since the same action triggered both abilities. Robilar's would be more potent in that case, since it works whether they hit or miss.

Quietus
2007-11-05, 07:39 AM
A good shocktrooper build will either KILL anything it charges via full PA pouncing headless charge

Yeah, I'd be pretty terrified of someone with no head charging me, too.

its_all_ogre
2007-11-05, 07:49 AM
if there are numerous enemies some could be invisible too.
imagine 4 rogues lurking invisible and charging you after you have done your 'i pwn yo ass' full PA.
and yes nothing likes a dragon going full PA with a full attack....

sikyon
2007-11-05, 08:05 AM
if there are numerous enemies some could be invisible too.
imagine 4 rogues lurking invisible and charging you after you have done your 'i pwn yo ass' full PA.
and yes nothing likes a dragon going full PA with a full attack....

'Cause that's an appropriate level challenge...

Grynning
2007-11-05, 08:13 AM
Considering that Charger Cheese takes at least 6-10 levels to attain awesomeness, 4 invisible rogues would be a level appropriate challenge. And they would murder you since your melee character has no AC when he's doing his kill combo.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-05, 08:19 AM
Just one invis rogue is all it'd take, with TWF and a decent source of other damage dice on their weapons they'd hit you with pretty much everyone of their attacks. SQUISH! and they'd be a lot more rounded than your one trick.

Keld Denar
2007-11-05, 08:42 AM
Well, I for one would never build a "glass" charger. High on list of priority items would be +CON items, a Ring of Freedom of Movement, and Fortification Armor. These are good items that any melee should invest in, but especially for a charger type. With rage and a +6 con amulet, that's a net gain of 5 hp per level, or 50 at level 10. With mostly fighter and barbarian levels, and a decent starting CON, it wouldn't be unreasonable for a charging type character to have around 150 hp at level 10 while raging.

Barb 1 (12)
Fighter 9 (6x9=54) = 66
Base CON 16 (3x10=30) = 96
Rage and +6 CON ammy (5x10=50) = 146

Thats not counting temp hp for Hero's Feast or any other common buff that might be in place. HP would be higher if char is a dwarf.

This makes for a pretty tough character to take out with an appropriate level encounter, even with a 2 AC after raging and charging, -2 with KS.

Also, we the current play environment gives us the Delay Death spell, which negates a lot of the risk of a full attack. So Heedless McChargydeath does 400 points of damage to the monster, gets knocked down to -50 with Delay Death up, his party kills the thing that should be almost dead by that point, and drop a Heal on their unconsious friend. Net result - Players 1, Bad Guys 0.

Grynning
2007-11-05, 08:52 AM
That still doesn't negate the problem of multiple opponents. The Charger can only kill ONE thing, maybe a couple more that are unlucky enough to have to melee him with KS or RG up. Even if you allow the "I can tell my pocket-cleric to give me all of these spells whenever I want" thing, a group of attackers would own this guy on the turn after his charge. Even if he lives through it, he's going to be a pretty large drain on party resources for heals/buffs/items etc.
Remember, I was asking whether the Uber Charger or Shock Trooper in general builds are viable for normal play, not optimization forum damage output. I'm starting to get the feeling that it's not, it just lacks versatility (of course most melee builds do, but I still love them).

Keld Denar
2007-11-05, 09:16 AM
That still doesn't negate the problem of multiple opponents. The Charger can only kill ONE thing, maybe a couple more that are unlucky enough to have to melee him with KS or RG up. Even if you allow the "I can tell my pocket-cleric to give me all of these spells whenever I want" thing, a group of attackers would own this guy on the turn after his charge. Even if he lives through it, he's going to be a pretty large drain on party resources for heals/buffs/items etc.
Remember, I was asking whether the Uber Charger or Shock Trooper in general builds are viable for normal play, not optimization forum damage output. I'm starting to get the feeling that it's not, it just lacks versatility (of course most melee builds do, but I still love them).

It is a team game. Before the charger does his thing, it would be wise to wait for the Wizard to lock down part of the battlefield with a Solid Fog, Evards, or a Wall of Force. Typically, his position should be right in front of the Wizard, thus blocking charge lines, and waiting for his moment to run forth and decimate the single target that the Wizard did not catch in his crowd control tactics. He might possibly wait until a party Archer/Blaster softens the target(s) so that he can kill them outright for no chance of retaliation. There are any number of situations that, given party dynamics, make the chargers job much safer. That the reason why you have a party. You fill your roll (hitting stuff hard), the Wizard fills his roll (battlefield control/disable), the ranged attackers fill their roll (hurting stuff), the Cleric fills his roll (buffing/healing/tanking/turning), and everyone comes home alive.

I just got back from an RPGA convention, and we played mostly high levels (level 14-16). I have a low AC, high PA character (level 14). Only one time the whole weekend (~16 combats) was I reduced to less than triple digit HP, because in single target encounters, the arcane debuffed the target, the Cleric buffed me (GMW, MV, Barkskin, Zealot Pact), and me and the other melee at the table hit stuff. In multi-target encounters, the Cleric Wall of Stoned, the Wizard Wall of Forced, and me and the other melee beat on things 1 at a time till they stopped moving. It was cut and dry by the book D&D tactics, and it worked. Well. And it was a lot of fun.

its_all_ogre
2007-11-05, 09:17 AM
actully the charger would benefit from improved invisibility from the wizard or a miss chance spell like displacement, much better than buffing hps i feel.

imp invisible would also mean the enemy would not know exactly where he is, therefore stumble into his threatening zones, unless your dm allows them to avoid via dm fiat.

and yes it is level appropriate. level 8 party confronts the BBEG sorcerer who is level 11 say with his big gribbly melee bodyguard, massive zombie in this case for tons of hps, he also has 4 invisible rogues, all are level 5 say. these rogues have been hinted at via foreshadowing by dm.
if the charger goes for the obvious zombie target or whatever he gets sliced up pretty bad. also if he tries to charge the sorc finds an invisible rogue in the way and provokes an AoO

funfun!

Keld Denar
2007-11-05, 09:53 AM
The problem with miss-chance is that it doesn't trigger Karmic Strike. It DOES trigger Robiliar's Gambit, but if they miss because of concelement, there is no Karmic Strike.

In your situation, the rogues wouldn't be much of a threat. Even full attacking with 2 weapon fighting (doubtful that all 4 get full attacks because of positioning) that's still only 8 attacks, only 4ish get sneak attack (regular invis only gives sneak on the 1st hit). They arn't gonna 1shot a level 8 barbarian mutt with about a 24 CON while raging. A bigger danger would be the sorc11 casting dominate person on the barbarian. The cleric should be prepping a counterspell on him, and the wizard should be taking out the rogues (sculpted glitterdust anyone?) The party ranged attacker should be pumping the sorc so full of arrows/bolts/damage spells that he won't last more than 2 rounds, and the charger should have crushed the zombie thing in the first pounce. Party dynamics win the day, with the charger playing as much of a part as anyone else.

Frosty
2007-11-05, 10:00 AM
If you are a charger, you don't care about AC. You use non-AC protection such as Displacement or Invisibility. You can also take one level of Conjuration Specialist Wizard to get Abrupt Jaunt to teleport away from a PA heavy-hitting critter if need be.

As for the AoOs, just take some levels in Warblade. There are qutie a few maneuvers that don't allow AoOs on the charge. Never leave home without the Tome of Battle

And if push comes to shove, you can ALWAYS TUMBLE AS PART OF THE CHARGE. And Warblades get Tumble, incidentally.

Mike_G
2007-11-05, 10:07 AM
The Charge cheese build is great in Forum discussions of "I can do infinity + 2d6 damage to anybody who starts a round 10 feet away," but has significant trade offs and weaknesses.

A character built for adventuring, not most average damage in one given situation, may have some, or even all, of the charger feats, but will need something else up his sleeve to use in multiple foe encounters.

There is all the difference in the world between a campaign build and a message board build.

Person_Man
2007-11-05, 10:22 AM
You don't need to use Shock Trooper. You can always just use normal Power Attack or Leap Attack, and reduce your To-Hit instead. Not every enemy has sky high AC, and most full BAB builds have very high To-Hit.

Also, you need not dump your AC all the way. There are 30 something ways to get Pounce. Even with a modest Leap Attack bonus and a full attack, you should be able to kill anything in 1 turn.

You can avoid AoO via a variety of special abilities, spells, and magic items. Invisibility comes to mind.

Some DMs allow you to Tumble as part of a charge.

As others have mentioned, you can pick up a Miss Chance via Displacement effects and/or Karmic Strike/Rob's Gambit.

Finally, you could always get access to Claws of the Vampire or Vampiric Blade via psionic powers, and be a King of Smack or King of Smack redux.

Frosty
2007-11-05, 10:41 AM
By RAW, you can tumble as a charge. If your DM doesn't allow it, he's uing houserules.