JPM gish idea

[cartejos]

Martial wizard 6/jade phoenix mage 10/abjurant champion 4

Sure, you dont get a recovery method for your maneuvers.
But you get 18 CL, 17 BAB, and 15 IL
Looking at this I would probably shift the abjurant champion levels to put the JPM levels at the end.
Would require Martial Study×2 and Martial Stance.
I would likely use w1 for martial study, w5 for martial stance, and lv6 for the second martial study, grabbing a 2nd lvl maneuver.

Any maneuvera gained would be usable 1/encounter, but those can be supplemented with spells.

I made this while trying to make a role-switching gish and not a self-buffer. Spell selection wants to remain as wizardly as poasible while still being effective.

[Gruftzwerg]

How are you going to increase your dmg? I mean, if you want to build ubercharger (power attack, shock trooper) you are delaying that past lvl10. Imho I would squeeze in a lvl of martial adept class and use the feats for something else (e.g. PA & ST).

Note that as a role-playing gish as you described it, you'll be bad at both things. Spells due to the lack of metamagic, and melee since you won't deal any noteable dmg. Do you intend to do only weapon dmg + Str mod till 20 without buffs?

Imho your definition of "gish" sounds more like a "jack-of-all-trades, master on none". And if that is your intention, there are better options to solve this. Maybe have a look a the chameleon prc. Since it doesn't need any casting base class you could use martial adept classes to enter Chameleon.

[bean illus]

Martial wizard 6/jade phoenix mage 10/abjurant champion 4


I like it. It's powerful, but you might be allowed to use it. It's tidy.

Maybe ... M Wiz 6/JPM 2/ Abjurant 4/ JPM8

[Temotei]

How are you going to increase your dmg? I mean, if you want to build ubercharger (power attack, shock trooper) you are delaying that past lvl10. Imho I would squeeze in a lvl of martial adept class and use the feats for something else (e.g. PA & ST).

Note that as a role-playing gish as you described it, you'll be bad at both things. Spells due to the lack of metamagic, and melee since you won't deal any noteable dmg. Do you intend to do only weapon dmg + Str mod till 20 without buffs?

Imho your definition of "gish" sounds more like a "jack-of-all-trades, master on none". And if that is your intention, there are better options to solve this. Maybe have a look a the chameleon prc. Since it doesn't need any casting base class you could use martial adept classes to enter Chameleon.

Jade phoenix mage has built-in features for fueling to-hit and damage with spell slots, Arcane Strike is easy enough to pick up, and maneuvers will pick up the slack on melee a little bit (though maneuver progression is somewhat slow with this build). I don't think it'll be as bad as you make it out to be.

That said, you could probably refine more. You could still buff even if it's not your focus. Things like mirror image, greater; resistance, superior; resist energy (mass); protection from energy; alter self; polymorph (any object); magic weapon, greater; false life. Your hit points are generally not going to be amazing without buffs, so to increase survivability you might want to buff anyway.

[Gruftzwerg]

Jade phoenix mage has built-in features for fueling to-hit and damage with spell slots, Arcane Strike is easy enough to pick up, and maneuvers will pick up the slack on melee a little bit (though maneuver progression is somewhat slow with this build). I don't think it'll be as bad as you make it out to be.

That said, you could probably refine more. You could still buff even if it's not your focus. Things like mirror image, greater; resistance, superior; resist energy (mass); protection from energy; alter self; polymorph (any object); magic weapon, greater; false life. Your hit points are generally not going to be amazing without buffs, so to increase survivability you might want to buff anyway.

Imho both Arcane Wrath and Arcane Strike are a waste of resources.
You waste a spellslot for a medicore dmg buff on a single attack. A AoE spell (which is available for a wizard on any lvl) would have done more dmg in most chases. Any decent sneak attack build will do more dmg and they are already considered as medicore damage dealers.
From an optimization point of view it's weak and even cutting away from your combat power.
If it is for role play reasons, that's another story. But for optimization, "it's a trap"^^.

[Anthrowhale]

W.r.t. damage, at relatively low levels, a pure wizard gish can take advantage of Heroics/Mirror Move, Wraithstrike, and (Greater) Mighty Wallop to put out significant damage while using Alter Self to crank up AC. At higher levels, Arcane Spellsurge means you can cast and full attack every round while Shapechange gives you plentiful extra attacks.

[Gruftzwerg]

W.r.t. damage, at relatively low levels, a pure wizard gish can take advantage of Heroics/Mirror Move, Wraithstrike, and (Greater) Mighty Wallop to put out significant damage while using Alter Self to crank up AC. At higher levels, Arcane Spellsurge means you can cast and full attack every round while Shapechange gives you plentiful extra attacks.

sure, that would normally be the chase. But the opening post excluded "Self-Buffer". That's why I said that imho he is looking for a "jack of all trades, master of none" like the chameleon class.

[Temotei]

Imho both Arcane Wrath and Arcane Strike are a waste of resources.
You waste a spellslot for a medicore dmg buff on a single attack. A AoE spell (which is available for a wizard on any lvl) would have done more dmg in most chases. Any decent sneak attack build will do more dmg and they are already considered as medicore damage dealers.
From an optimization point of view it's weak and even cutting away from your combat power.
If it is for role play reasons, that's another story. But for optimization, "it's a trap"^^.

Sure, but how many spell slots are you going through per day? Certainly, you're not casting through your entire repertoire with AoE spells. Use those low-level (even 0-level) slots for arcane wrath. You can still get off AoE spells as needed but often single-target damage is what you want, and that's when a quick nova with Arcane Strike + arcane wrath is nice. Sneak attack is much easier to avoid (concealment, immunity, uncanny dodge, etc.), ubercharging can often be stopped by a single obstacle (or various defenses), and AoE spells, while generally underrated here, don't even do the same thing.

With this build, I'd be more worried about early game, when you have almost no reason to go into melee, so your "gish" is really just a wizard until early-mid levels at the earliest. That's fine, but it'll be kind of weird to suddenly pivot into gishing, I think. A common problem with gishes in general, though.

[rrwoods]

The main weird thing for me about this build is that wizard 6 isn’t really doing anything. Wizard 5 already gets you 3rds, so why not replace that level with like a Warblade level?

[cartejos]

I dont want to spend all my spell slots buffing, but a buff or two isnt out of the question. The character will play mostly as a wizard, though it will be missing scribe scroll lv5 bonus feat and lv6 feat. The rest of the feats will likely be geared towards magic/not dying.

And warblade at 1 or 6 would save me 3 feats, but lose me a hard cl and delay spells another level, which is already a weakness in this and many gish builds.

I feel like some people would say the druid sucks because eventually the animal companion falls off, just to be obstinate

[Temotei]

I feel like some people would say the druid sucks because eventually the animal companion falls off, just to be obstinate

No familiar. :smallwink:

[cartejos]

No familiar. :smallwink:

Truenamer is the only real way to play the game. Certified OP

[Sam K]

It's neat and I have to admit the concept is kind of cool.

But it seems pointless.

Surviving in melee against anything you really care about hurting will require a load of buffs, which eats up your spell slots and actions. So you're losing 2 caster levels and 3 feats in order to get some not-very-impressive melee abilities, and then spending even more spell slots and actions to be able to credibly use those melee abilities. There's no quick role switching: you're expending time and resources to take on a role you're not great at. Still, you're trading power for flexibility and coolness. Except spell slots and caster levels ALSO give flexibility, so you're probably just trading power for coolness.

Cool. It's not like a wizard will be useless because of some delayed casting - sometimes the benefit of T1 classes is that they can make some thematic choices and STILL BE USEFUL. It seems like a sub-optimal trade, but your trading down from a Ferrari to a Porsche 911 so you're still in a good position.

The real issue I see is with equipment. You will be splitting your equipment between caster items, survival items and melee items. And since you'll be in melee sometimes, you may need MORE survival items than you would if you were a classic wizard. Same with stats, you want high int and con and str and at least some dex...

To be honest, it will probably work out ok. And it will be cool, cause lets face it, wizards with flaming swords (that they know how to use) IS cool. But I can't shake the feeling it will mostly work because it's fundamentally a wizard. Cool wizard though. That counts for something.

[nedz]

The main weird thing for me about this build is that wizard 6 isn’t really doing anything. Wizard 5 already gets you 3rds, so why not replace that level with like a Warblade level?

I agree with this. Warblade 1 (at 1st) gets you a lot of combat options as well as a recovery mechanism. You would still need to take Martial study to open Desert Wind or Devoted Spirit. Levels 1-6 are an important part of the game where you establish your character. I'm not sure I would bother with Wizard 5 even - it doesn't increase you IL before JPM 1.
Warblade 1 / Wizard 4 / JPM 10 etc.

Ed:
Warblade 1 / Wizard 6 / JPM 1 ... would mean that your IL would be 5 for your first JPM manoeuvre though - so that *might* be a consideration.