Rate this Idea: Suggestion for long-term nonlethal takedown

[Cikomyr2]

So I was reviewing the rules of Exhaustion, and there's not a lot of things in this game that gives Exhaustion levels. Sickening Radiance is there, but it's also super dangerous and lethal.

However, the "Chase" rules basically spell out a way to quickly accrue exhaustion. The rule say:


During the chase, a participant can freely use the Dash action a number of times equal to 3 + its Constitution modifier. Each additional Dash action it takes during the chase requires the creature to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution check at the end of its turn or gain one level of exhaustion.

Effectively, there's an upper limit to how many consecutive rounds you can sprint, after which you start potentially tiring out.

So... say I use Suggestion on an NPC to force him to run in circles. He would quickly accrue all levels of exhaustion until his speed reaches 0. And since you remove ONE level of exhaustion per long rest, that NPC is now effectively a non-issue for at least a few days.

The limits on Suggestion is "you can't force someone to do something obviously lethal". Would a suggestion of "Sprinting" be considered lethal?

[RogueJK]

The limits on Suggestion is "you can't force someone to do something obviously lethal". Would a suggestion of "Sprinting" be considered lethal?

"Sprint until you drop dead" obviously wouldn't work. But something like "You've decided to get into shape, so go run laps until you're so exhausted that you need to rest for 3 days to fully recover" might.

Reread the Suggestion spell... It's not just that you can't force someone to do something "obviously lethal". It's that you can't force them to do an "obviously harmful act".

So it comes down to how your DM interprets the prohibition against "obviously harmful acts". To me, Levels 1-3 of Exhaustion aren't really "physically harmful" in a strict sense, but Level 4-6 would be, so I'd limit it to a maximum of 3 levels of Exhaustion. Your DM may rule otherwise.

1 Disadvantage on Ability Checks
2 Speed halved
3 Disadvantage on Attack rolls and Saving Throws
4 Hit point maximum halved
5 Speed reduced to 0
6 Death

[Sorinth]

It's always going to be DM dependent. For me sprinting until you can't physically move anymore doesn't pass the "reasonable" test and halving your hit points is harmful so there's no way they would continue to sprint once they've hit that 3rd level of exhaustion.

And depending on wording, they might stop dashing but continue moving after 1 level of exhaustion.

[Darth Credence]

Does "running" automatically imply using the dash action? I would think dashing would be "sprinting", not running. That's not really important, but I wanted to get it out.

More to the point, how is "run in circles" reasonable? (Not saying it's not, but if I were DMing, I don't think I'd accept it without some thought.) When I think of suggestion, I basically think that it has to be something the person would normally do, possibly while drunk, but isn't planning on it right now. So if you said it to someone with the athlete background, or a particular player I had who made it a point in the early sessions that his character was running laps around town, then maybe it's reasonable. A wizard described as portly, however? I don't think there is any way they would consider "run in circles" to be reasonable. If it is just "run in circles", with no purpose attached, I don't think I'd deem it reasonable for anyone other than an athlete.

I'd also say that running yourself to disadvantage is obviously harmful. That's a change for the worse in your physical state, so it meets the bar for me. As I've thought this through, I'm pretty sure I would not allow this in any circumstance.

[Rara1212]

Aren't the chase rules an optional rule, and even then only comes into effect if there is an actual chase going on?

[Droppeddead]

Anyone who has read "The Preacher" has seen the best use of a long term suggestion that there ever will be... ;)

[Clockup]

Anyone who has read "The Preacher" has seen the best use of a long term suggestion that there ever will be... ;)

Preacher uses Dominate Person, not Suggestion.

[Mr Adventurer]

Anyone who has read "The Preacher" has seen the best use of a long term suggestion that there ever will be... ;)

I haven't - what is the Suggestion?

[BamBam]

Hold your breath.

The air is toxic and will kill you immediately.

[Mr Adventurer]

Ah, thanks

[MoiMagnus]

So I was reviewing the rules of Exhaustion, and there's not a lot of things in this game that gives Exhaustion levels. Sickening Radiance is there, but it's also super dangerous and lethal.

However, the "Chase" rules basically spell out a way to quickly accrue exhaustion. The rule say:



Effectively, there's an upper limit to how many consecutive rounds you can sprint, after which you start potentially tiring out.

So... say I use Suggestion on an NPC to force him to run in circles. He would quickly accrue all levels of exhaustion until his speed reaches 0. And since you remove ONE level of exhaustion per long rest, that NPC is now effectively a non-issue for at least a few days.

The limits on Suggestion is "you can't force someone to do something obviously lethal". Would a suggestion of "Sprinting" be considered lethal?

IMO that's as much unreasonable than "stop breathing for one hour". The action "stop breathing for 6s" is totally reasonable, but it will quickly become obvious to anyone trying to stop breathing for one hour that it is harmful to them.

Small note, I doubt most peoples are able to run up until their death by exhaustion without any training. They would probably collapse after 2-3 levels of exhaustion. (With possibly a moral check after each exhaustion level).
And they, they will be in intense pain the next day or two, difficultly able to do anything, because of how much they pushed their body at their limit (represented by the one exhaustion level per long rest).

[BamBam]

IMO that's as much unreasonable than "stop breathing for one hour". The action "stop breathing for 6s" is totally reasonable, but it will quickly become obvious to anyone trying to stop breathing for one hour that it is harmful to them.

Small note, I doubt most peoples are able to run up until their death by exhaustion without any training. They would probably collapse after 2-3 levels of exhaustion. (With possibly a moral check after each exhaustion level).
And they, they will be in intense pain the next day or two, difficultly able to do anything, because of how much they pushed their body at their limit (represented by the one exhaustion level per long rest).

The air is toxic and will kill you immediately.

[MoiMagnus]

The air is toxic and will kill you immediately.

It doesn't matter if the air is toxic, stopping to breath for very long period of time is still harmful.
"Harm yourself or you will die from [plausible cause of death]" is not a valid suggestion, as it's still an harmful act.

[Additionally, even if you allow this suggestion, if the target accidentally respire some air, for example by failing to correctly hold their breath like most peoples would, they will know that the air is not toxic any more. Suggestion doesn't convince someone of a fact against what their perception say like an illusion spells would.]

[Clockup]

It doesn't matter if the air is toxic, stopping to breath for very long period of time is still harmful.
"Harm yourself or you will die from [plausible cause of death]" is not a valid suggestion, as it's still an harmful act.

[Additionally, even if you allow this suggestion, if the target accidentally respire some air, for example by failing to correctly hold their breath like most peoples would, they will know that the air is not toxic any more. Suggestion doesn't convince someone of a fact against what their perception say like an illusion spells would.]

Yes, people trying to cheese Suggestion is tiresome. I feel you.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Hold your breath.

The air is toxic and will kill you immediately.

This is a phantasmal force sort of effect, not eligible for suggestion for several reasons.

[Wraith]

I think the biggest problem with the idea is just that its inefficient compared to other instructions that you can give.

"Sprint around in circles until you're too tired to move."

Let's presume a Con of 10, that seems appropriately average. So the victim Dashes for 3 rounds, and thereafter has a 50/50 chance of gaining a level of Exhaustion. Assuming perfectly reliable statistics, that means they'll hit Rank 3 in ~9 rounds and rank 6 in ~15 rounds - about 90 seconds.

Problem is, they're still there with you - if they get interrupted and awaken or you lose concentration, they're within 1 action of being back up in your face.

"Jog 1 mile to the North."

A mile is 5280 feet, which with an average move of 30ft is 176 rounds, more if they meet difficult terrain. There's no ambiguity about it being a threat to the victim so they shouldn't have much reason to refuse it unless you're sending them over a cliff or something. And then they have to turn around and come back again. How much more time do you need to deal with them? It's just so much simpler. :smallsmile:

[Cikomyr2]

I think the biggest problem with the idea is just that its inefficient compared to other instructions that you can give.

"Sprint around in circles until you're too tired to move."

Let's presume a Con of 10, that seems appropriately average. So the victim Dashes for 3 rounds, and thereafter has a 50/50 chance of gaining a level of Exhaustion. Assuming perfectly reliable statistics, that means they'll hit Rank 3 in ~9 rounds and rank 6 in ~15 rounds - about 90 seconds.

Problem is, they're still there with you - if they get interrupted and awaken or you lose concentration, they're within 1 action of being back up in your face.

"Jog 1 mile to the North."

A mile is 5280 feet, which with an average move of 30ft is 176 rounds, more if they meet difficult terrain. There's no ambiguity about it being a threat to the victim so they shouldn't have much reason to refuse it unless you're sending them over a cliff or something. And then they have to turn around and come back again. How much more time do you need to deal with them? It's just so much simpler. :smallsmile:

Well, the point in this case is to be able to easily capture someone without violence, and make sure they are relatively easy to control after.

[Wraith]

Well, the point in this case is to be able to easily capture someone without violence, and make sure they are relatively easy to control after.

My idea doesn't aid that, fair enough, however the original post described wanting the victim to be "effectively a non-issue", there's nothing about them being available for capture thereafter. Not sure how I was meant to deduce that from words which aren't there.

[Cikomyr2]

My idea doesn't aid that, fair enough, however the original post described wanting the victim to be "effectively a non-issue", there's nothing about them being available for capture thereafter. Not sure how I was meant to deduce that from words which aren't there.

that's a fair point. But if I want to be deliberately nonlethal in my approach, it's probably because I wanted to avoid any grief related to violence. But I wasn't explicit enough :smallwink:

[Xetheral]

So I was reviewing the rules of Exhaustion, and there's not a lot of things in this game that gives Exhaustion levels. Sickening Radiance is there, but it's also super dangerous and lethal.

However, the "Chase" rules basically spell out a way to quickly accrue exhaustion. The rule say:



Effectively, there's an upper limit to how many consecutive rounds you can sprint, after which you start potentially tiring out.

So... say I use Suggestion on an NPC to force him to run in circles. He would quickly accrue all levels of exhaustion until his speed reaches 0. And since you remove ONE level of exhaustion per long rest, that NPC is now effectively a non-issue for at least a few days.

The limits on Suggestion is "you can't force someone to do something obviously lethal". Would a suggestion of "Sprinting" be considered lethal?

Note that exhaustion levels inflicted by the chase rules recover much faster than normal exhaustion levels.