Making a Rogue - with some magic (not any more)

[Bobur]

Ok, so my original idea was to play a rogue that can do some basic magic.
Rogue> Assasin (homebrewed into "not evil")
By itself, ok. But I was putting way more time than I am willing to admit into test builds, to see what else I can get.
In the 5 Lvs before Assasin, the last 2 are rather weak and only give us 1 SA die,+1BAB, 1 Ref, and uncanny dodge, which we get from the Assasin eventually.

Core only + Dragonlance (not really anything new), MAYBE something from other books can be implemented, but it has to be greenlit first.
Kender (Halflings with +2Dex and -2Str -2Wis and something like 3x+2 on skill and +1Svs. Immunity to fear - unless you are an afflicted Kender, they aren't immune to fear but get another 4x+2 on skills)

Rogue 4 + Wiz 1, really unheard of for Kender, since they lack the will to study. My GM was not a fan. Casting in armor is not a good thing either.

Rogue 3 + Bard1 or2, better saves, and some neat tool spells. Bardic knw is good too. But we don't get a lot of spells/Day. We lose a few skill points compared to full rogue and 1 SA die. Uncanny dodge we get later from Assasin.
We get 3/1 spell/day, as well as the other abilities. 3Ranks in perform would be enough, but we could also push the fascinate DC if we wanted to.

Rogue3 + Ranger2 if we forget about the magic and go for 1 extra feat. Urban ranger would work better for skills. We would end up with better BAB, good FORT and 1 feat as well as some minor extras.

Even if allowed: Duskblade and Beguiler don't really give me the spells I want. Sorcerer again is not a friend of armor ^^

The part where I am a bit undecided as well is the stats:

(8/20/14/14/8/8 after R-adj.)
I will likely go for a Kender weapon that makes use of 2WF. To make full use of that I would need 20Dex, but the remaining stats would drop. Enough INT To feed the assassin spells. Bard Levels would be useless with 8 Cha unless the GM allows bardic sage (UA) The negative CHA mod would hurt though, especially if I wanted to be a face. With the skill points available I could still do it, just less effective.

(8/18/14/14/8/14 after R-adj.)
-1Atk/AC due to 18Dex, but makes better use of the points by buffing our CHA. Barely works for Assasin and Bard (technically we would be fine with 12CHA to cast Lv1 spells+bonus spell). Likely the most balanced build. Also gets the highest stat out of Use magic device and our long skill list.

(8/18/14/16/8/10 after R-adj.)
This version would work for the bardic sage although we don't gain anything in terms of spells/Day. The DC doesn't matter much, since I would prefer tool spells. The CHA doesn't drop AS low as in the first version and we get even more skill points and slightly higher bardic kn.
INT is a good Lv1 stat since the skills/Lv won't change if we were to get +X INT later anyway.

As for feats: 2Wfighting and W finesse are obvious choices. I thought of skill focus UMD, since it's just that good+ p. of persuasion and maybe a UMD tool if that's possible. ^^

I brooded a bit too long over this, so maybe I can get some fresh views on this from you guys. Thanks in advance.

[ChaosStar]

Ok, so my original idea was to play a rogue that can do some basic magic.
Rogue> Assasin (homebrewed into "not evil")
By itself, ok. But I was putting way more time than I am willing to admit into test builds, to see what else I can get.
In the 5 Lvs before Assasin, the last 2 are rather weak and only give us 1 SA die,+1BAB, 1 Ref, and uncanny dodge, which we get from the Assasin eventually.

Core only + Dragonlance (not really anything new), MAYBE something from other books can be implemented, but it has to be greenlit first.
Kender (Halflings with +2Dex and -2Str -2Wis and something like 3x+2 on skill and +1Svs. Immunity to fear - unless you are an afflicted Kender, they aren't immune to fear but get another 4x+2 on skills)

Rogue 4 + Wiz 1, really unheard of for Kender, since they lack the will to study. My GM was not a fan. Casting in armor is not a good thing either.

Rogue 3 + Bard1 or2, better saves, and some neat tool spells. Bardic knw is good too. But we don't get a lot of spells/Day. We lose a few skill points compared to full rogue and 1 SA die. Uncanny dodge we get later from Assasin.
We get 3/1 spell/day, as well as the other abilities. 3Ranks in perform would be enough, but we could also push the fascinate DC if we wanted to.

Rogue3 + Ranger2 if we forget about the magic and go for 1 extra feat. Urban ranger would work better for skills. We would end up with better BAB, good FORT and 1 feat as well as some minor extras.

Even if allowed: Duskblade and Beguiler don't really give me the spells I want. Sorcerer again is not a friend of armor ^^

The part where I am a bit undecided as well is the stats:

(8/20/14/14/8/8 after R-adj.)
I will likely go for a Kender weapon that makes use of 2WF. To make full use of that I would need 20Dex, but the remaining stats would drop. Enough INT To feed the assassin spells. Bard Levels would be useless with 8 Cha unless the GM allows bardic sage (UA) The negative CHA mod would hurt though, especially if I wanted to be a face. With the skill points available I could still do it, just less effective.

(8/18/14/14/8/14 after R-adj.)
-1Atk/AC due to 18Dex, but makes better use of the points by buffing our CHA. Barely works for Assasin and Bard (technically we would be fine with 12CHA to cast Lv1 spells+bonus spell). Likely the most balanced build. Also gets the highest stat out of Use magic device and our long skill list.

(8/18/14/16/8/10 after R-adj.)
This version would work for the bardic sage although we don't gain anything in terms of spells/Day. The DC doesn't matter much, since I would prefer tool spells. The CHA doesn't drop AS low as in the first version and we get even more skill points and slightly higher bardic kn.
INT is a good Lv1 stat since the skills/Lv won't change if we were to get +X INT later anyway.

As for feats: 2Wfighting and W finesse are obvious choices. I thought of skill focus UMD, since it's just that good+ p. of persuasion and maybe a UMD tool if that's possible. ^^

I brooded a bit too long over this, so maybe I can get some fresh views on this from you guys. Thanks in advance.

If the DM will approve it, Spellthief sounds like what you want.

[Bobur]

If the DM will approve it, Spellthief sounds like what you want.
Thanks.
While an interesting concept its not quite what I am looking for. A bard would grant me better stats, more spells, and more useable other abilities.

Not sure about the stats though.

[Crake]

If you play in a 3.pf game where your DM allows you to stack the magical knack trait with practised spellcaster in a spheres of power game, you can create a pretty decent caster with that and the advanced magical training feat and like, one level in incanter.

Works even better if your DM allows you to replace the minor and major magic rogue talents with spheres feats.

[liquidformat]

Some comments:

Check out Avenger (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) it is non evil assassin, you could also look at Slayer of Domiel it is strictly worse than assassin/avenger but not bad if your dm allows you to raid assassin spell list to expand your spell list.

Have you looked at swashbuckler? rogue 3/swashbuckler (CW) 3 gives you insightful strike (int to damage), weapon finesse, +3 BAB, +3 Fort, +1 Ref/Will. picking up Daring Outlaw feat (CS) stacks your rogue/swashbuckler levels for calculating sneak attack in which case rogue 4/swashbuckler 3/assassin X is more desirable to pickup an extra SA dice. Also Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape), Disruptive Attack (PHBII) and Arcane Stunt (CM) ACFs are worth looking at.

[Fouredged Sword]

There is an ACF in Dragon 353 for the spellthief called "trickster" that essentially gives it bard casting at the cost of most of it's sneak attack.

On the other hand, a perfectly viable path is to go

Spellthief 1 / Wizard 5 / Arcane trickster 10 with the master spellthief feat. The Master Spellthief feat is from the same book as spellthief and it allows many of the spellthief class features to stack with another arcane casting class.

This allows you to be a wizard with spellthief class skills, the ability to use light armor, and a fist full of sneak attack, while only losing one caster level.

[nedz]

I have lots of good builds, but Core only is tricky. You have to go Arcane Trickster or only dip.

Masterworked Leather/Mithril Chain allows you to cast in armour as a sorcerer - or you can go for miss chance instead of armour.

[liquidformat]

Masterworked Leather/Mithril Chain allows you to cast in armour as a sorcerer - or you can go for miss chance instead of armour.

both of these options still have 10% spell failure...

[DEMON]

Since it maybe can be allowed and looks like noone mentioned it yet - the Fatemaker from Planar Handbook might be a decent fit?

It's yet another variation on Assassin, that might catch your fancy and get greenlit by the DM since it's nothing outrageous.

[Temotei]

If you're looking for any type of magic, psychic rogue could work. It's available online, so source might be less of an issue.

[Bobur]

Thanks, everyone, lots of nice ideas.
With a melee class and 2WF, 20 Dex would make sense, but its so expensive to get and hurts me as a face that I am not so sure about it. Then again, 2WF lowers our ATK and our BAB isnt great either so you would really want to have it as high as possible. ^^°

I usually tend to prefer versatility over high focus, although a melee focussed build would definitely be easier to do.
Full Rogue, Rogue-Ranger or Rogue Swashbuckler, 20 Dex and be done up to Assasin.

But if I want versatility and spells I will likely not reach the 20 Dex. and have a lower BAB and likely a feat less.

In return I can do more stuff with Lv0/1 spells and other options, depending on the class dip. In case of a bard we get knw, fascinate, insp courage and spells like grease, minor image, dancing light, prestidigitation, mage hand, message.... things that make our life a bit easier and flavorful at times, but will hardly do much for us as a melee class.
We cant do a lot of spells/day and the bard abilities won't scale (except "fascinate" with the perform skill) so that makes me hold back a bit. Maybe its just not a great idea in general And I should rather get Skill focus UMD to get spells as scrolls/wands instead? That would also need a positive CHA modifier...

With 20Dex 14 INt would be the most I could do. If allowed the bardic sage would still give me spells, while dropping the +2CHA to -1. Works but hurts considering how many of our skills are CHA based.

I haven't played a character in ages so I am way overthinking this. I just remember that my first character was a pure fighter, which I found rather dull to play. A beguiler after that, which was nice, but is also the reason why I dont want to play a full bard right afterward.

A case of want-it-all. XD

Another idea: Less rogue, more bard:
Rogue 1>Bard4>Assasin> Shadowdancer1>Assasin
Same BAB as full rogue, -2SA :(, Lv2 spells. Good saves, less skills, more bard options. -Shadowdancer is likely a bad idea though, considering the required feats.
If the DM would allow me to spend a feat to regain some SA die, maybe ? ^^

[Gorthawar]

Hi, may I ask at which level your campaign is starting? One of the annoying things for plenty of characters that use weapon finesse is that it requires BaB+1 and can only be taken at level 3 which makes for very awkward combat up until then.

Whilst the bard spells are handy just having 1 day level one spell doesn't quite cut it for me and with the assassin not progressing spellcasting will be pretty underwhelming at later levels.

Personally I'd go for the urban ranger levels if allowed or even better the use of the individual alternative class features. The higher Bab allows you to drop dex to 18 and distribute your attributes more (I like the 16 Int distribution) and the extra feats are always handy (urban tracking can come in handy once in a while). Don't forget that it allows the use of ranger wands / scrolls as well without umd.

For you bard centric idea you could do something like Rogue1/Bard4/Assassin 1/bard+4/Arcane trickster 10 which ends up with lvl 18 bard casting and 7d6 sneak attack but only 11BaB.

[Bobur]

Hi, may I ask at which level your campaign is starting? One of the annoying things for plenty of characters that use weapon finesse is that it requires BaB+1 and can only be taken at level 3 which makes for very awkward combat up until then.

Whilst the bard spells are handy just having 1 day level one spell doesn't quite cut it for me and with the assassin not progressing spellcasting will be pretty underwhelming at later levels.

Personally, I'd go for the urban ranger levels if allowed or even better the use of the individual alternative class features. The higher Bab allows you to drop dex to 18 and distribute your attributes more (I like the 16 Int distribution) and the extra feats are always handy (urban tracking can come in handy once in a while). Don't forget that it allows the use of ranger wands / scrolls as well without umd.

For you bard centric idea you could do something like Rogue1/Bard4/Assassin 1/bard+4/Arcane trickster 10 which ends up with lvl 18 bard casting and 7d6 sneak attack but only 11BaB.

The game would start at Lv2, so I would have to go through 1 Lv without W finesseAlthough I doubt that my GM would insist on the 1BAB req. (Personally, I believe rogues should just start with W finesse) Ranger would give me 1 free feat though. The entire adventure is unlikely to go beyond Lv10 or 12 I assume, maybe not even that.

Ro1, Ra2 - 18dex + 16Int 10 Cha vs 14Int 14 Cha... tricky. again the one more skill maxed on 1 side and +2 for all cha skills on the other. I doubt that the tracking will be very useful though. ^^
Haven't thought of the ranger spells so far. UMD won't be very easy to do though. Unless I get Skill focus and that +3 on all cha skill item and even then it's no safe bet till later levels.

After some thought I kind of like the idea though. Dodging the spells feals cleaner as a build, even though it lacks the extra options.
Urban ranger is fine for the GM, maybe I can tweak a bit as a Kender ranger, no idea what though. Other skills maybe.

[Gorthawar]

Sounds good. I'm usually waiving the +1 BaB requirement in the games I DM as well. Another thing that is relevant to your build might be a consolidation of some of the skills similar to pathfinder rules. Even with 11 skill points per level getting the right skills to scout and be the face of the party really stretches the budget. Hide, move silently, listen and spot for sneaking around, disable device and search for traps, UMD because it's awesome, bluff, sense motive and some diplomacy for social situations...
Going into assassin will make this nearly impossible with just 7 skills per level.

[ChaosStar]

Having done some calcs. Spellthief 5/Unseen Seer 7/Arcane Trickster 8 with Master Spellthief gets you full Spellthief casting, 9th level steal spells, and +9d6 sneak attack.

[Darg]

Rogue 3/fighter 2 works well for assassin entry and you get some very valuable bonus feats and strong proficiencies.

Combat Expertise
Improved Feint
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack

Improved Feint lets you make a feint attempt with a move action. Spring Attack lets you take a move action and then with your attack action move up to your speed before and after your attack. Combined with a greatsword you could be doing 4d6+1.5 STR per turn at 5th level while improving your chance to hit significantly. Once you get your HiPS at 13, you can use the movement from your spring attack to hide in shadows. This combo also leaves open the possibility to take advantage of whirlwind attack to sneak attack multiple enemies or getting an armor spike with TWF for more attacks on a full attack.

[gijoemike]

Why Rogue?

You seem fluid on all parts of your build except Rogue. Do you want to be a thief? Is it because of Sneak attack? There are better ways to make a steal stuff stab you in the back type of character. How do you envision this character playing? Tell us what you want and you will get various class builds that make that happen. Some may not contain rogue at all ( See swashbuckler and spellthief above).

[Gruftzwerg]

How about some warlock levels? 1-4 lvls can earn you some nice abilities:

1 lvl:
Eldritch Blast/Glaive - ranged/melee touch attacks, reach, can be used with sneak attacks

2 lvls:
Detect Magic - At-will. As scout you can detect magic items and traps. Also nice to see NPCs that have buff spells or are otherwise magical
Spiderwalk - 24h/day

3 lvls:
dmg reduction 1/cold iron
Eldritch Blast/Glaive 2d6 dmg

4 lvls:
Deceive Item - handy if you want to UMD a lot.

[nedz]

both of these options still have 10% spell failure...

Oops - must be a houserule.

[Ramza00]

If you play in a 3.pf game where your DM allows you to stack the magical knack trait with practised spellcaster in a spheres of power game, you can create a pretty decent caster with that and the advanced magical training feat and like, one level in incanter.

Works even better if your DM allows you to replace the minor and major magic rogue talents with spheres feats.
I was thinking the same thing. In pathfinder + 3rd party you can do something like this

Unchained Rogue with the Eldritch Scoundrel Archetype and the Hidden Blade archetype from PoW.
You're still an unchained rogue, you still get all the skill shenanigans that comes with.
4+ Skill points
You only have half progression sneak attack, and trade out pretty much every single rogue talent you'd get
In exchange, you get 6th level wizard casting and 6th level initiating, plus warlord gambits.


Problem is that is not useful information for the OP due to this :smalltongue:


Core only + Dragonlance (not really anything new), MAYBE something from other books can be implemented, but it has to be greenlit first.

And I unfortunately do not have suggestions for this limited books. :smalleek::smallfrown:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Why not mix in Cloistered Cleric (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) for high skill points and spellcasting that ignores armor? Worship Branchala and get the Luck and Trickery domains. There are prestige classes that grant sneak attack and divine spellcasting advancement, Complete Adventurer has Shadowbane Stalker (LG alignment) and Daggerspell Shaper (requires wild shape), and Complete Divine has Black Flame Zealot (which is rather weak), I'm sure there are more.

Are you able to use psionic classes? Psychic Assassin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) could be useful, go something like Rogue or Spellthief 1/ Psion or Ardent 4/ Spellthief 6/ Slayer 9, using Practiced Manifester to qualify. Psychic Assassin 6 only loses two levels of manifesting because the text overrides what's on the table. Take the Mind Cripple ability and you'll be dealing 2 Int damage per sneak attack, so a single TWF full attack could outright disable most opponents regardless of their hp. Psionics also gets plenty of ranged powers like Energy Ray and Crystal Shard that can be augmented for higher damage and also deal sneak attacks. Spellthief is better as it allows you to use wands of wizard spells in the schools it can access, even with a single level.

[Bobur]

Thanks again for all the ideas.

Sidenote: We homebrewed the skill system a bit and reduced the number of skills. Hide/MS >1, All Str skills >1, Bluff/Disguise>1 Balance/Tumble>1 Listen/spot>1

As requested, what character is this and what do I envision with him?
My last character was a beguiler, so playing a full bard was a bit too close to that (rethinking it though) and I wanted something different, full rogues are not a great class by itself either though and really lack some options. Our books are again rather limited and my DM wants to keep it to core+Dragonlance and the settings restrictions as much as possible. But I can try to get stuff from other books in, ACF and alike, even homebrew when reasonable. Maybe I try to homebrew the assasin into a full class and not a prc. ^^

The backstory was that my Kender and his siblings have been basically enslaved by a black wizard, who tried to make them into his personal spies/assassins.
Kender are not particularly great at studying so the wizard's attempt at teaching them magic was not very successful. (This was my reason to try to get some magic in, mostly for options and versatility, compared to a non-magical class. The original idea was just 1 Lv of wiz, replace scr scroll for a feat, get a familiar, saves and an ok number of basic spells.
Other than that this was the setup for a modified assassin, which is now good, Kender oriented and grants the Kender-rogue-ACF in place of the death attack, that is basically spring attack, without Aoo and a hide options if we end up near cover.

My PC and his family escaped from the wizard but had to live in the city, where the training became handy. They never got together with either the corrupt guards or the thieves guild, but instead worked more with the other downtrodden, like Kender, beggars and alike. At some point, my PC managed to escape the city with a plan to free his family/friends later.
He is an afflicted Kender so a lot more careful than the usual Kender (no immunity to fear, but more skill boni - I could imagine changing the skill boni to a free feat though)
He cares for his family and friends, starts out as rather distrusting of the "tall folk" and has no problem making good use of his learned skills while having a sense of good and bad stealing ;). He will try to aid beggars, orphans and Kender if needed.

That is the basic setup. I thought of him as a highly trained rogue-like character with some spells or other cool options on top.
The mod. assassin would actually lend itself to the scout class and maybe even without 2WF.
TWF was an idea to make use of the unique combi weapons that Kender have, but not a must either: Shi-tak: A short bow with 2 blades at each end. Originally a massive weapon, we modified it into a lighter version that made more sense for Kender. Sure has its problems as well if you are stuck to 1 weapon. Nice for switching between bow/melee though. Bad again if nice loot comes up and you would have to ditch the entire thing for a +2 dagger. ^^°

----
Since Kender have -2Str, -2Wis +2Dex: I didn't really check out the cleric options (Branchala -Luck/Trickery domain sure fits Kender, only the cleric spells are not as rogue-ish as the arcane). The 30ft speed is nice for a small race. I enjoy the option of being the face, but that stretches all the abilities pretty thin I guess. Even with 32 point buy.

I am also checking out the scout class. Seems neat. Gets more stuff than the rogue I think, dmg is easier to do, but it dodges basically all CHA skills I think. It basically avoids full attacks.

Rethinking the options again... without a rogue? A bard +Bardic knack or bardic sage? Both fit the Kender well (high skills/ kender tale)
If I could replace some class features for sneak attack or something alike? ^^ Would make the assassin obsolete unless it continued bard levels? XD Sad that the rogue gets so little in terms of actual options. (Free feats?, movement speed, actions? anything?)

In Dragonlance there is the spellfilch Prc.
Like a weaker version of the arcane trickster. 6HP, 4Skill points and 1/2 spell progression and you can buff yourself by consuming spell slots. 4th Lv spell > +4d6 sneak attack dmg. But as a move action!
There is also the Kender nightstalker but you are better of just playing a full cleric in every way.
And we dont talk about the kender handler or even worse the tumble Prc of Branchala, which is the only thing for bards at all.

[liquidformat]

If you are going ranger it might be worth checking with your dm if you can use the trap expert ACF from dungeonscape for ranger it replaces tracking with trap finding as a rogue and adds Disable Device to your skill list.

You could also look at Mystic Ranger from DM it gives you spells starting at level 1 but delays two weapon fighting until level 3...

[Bobur]

Why Rogue?

You seem fluid on all parts of your build except Rogue. Do you want to be a thief? Is it because of Sneak attack? There are better ways to make a steal stuff stab you in the back type of character. How do you envision this character playing? Tell us what you want and you will get various class builds that make that happen. Some may not contain rogue at all ( See swashbuckler and spellthief above).

So, how would you make a better master thief backstabber without a rogue?

[gijoemike]

So, how would you make a better master thief backstabber without a rogue?
Liquidformat gave one example. There are acfs that let other classes be the trap finder. Lets continue down the ranger path.


Ranger acfs exchange Track -> trapfinding.
Arcane Hunter trades favored enemy for favored enemy(arcanist). This is from Complete Mage originally.
Trade all combat styles -> wild ship into small creatures. This is from unearthed arcana. This may not be allowed in your game. There are a lot of ACF in that book.



You are now a cat/dog/iguana/small monkey, that bypasses traps and locks, and steals from houses as well as dungeons. The small size helps you stealth. You have spells from ranger. You also happen to be excellent at killing anything that can cast an arcane spell. As an assassin you have a particular target. You have an animal companion to help with the getaway. Say this out loud "Wolf riding Monkey thief." Even if you are seen the guard says it was a monkey riding a dog sir. No sir, I have not been drinking, 3 other guards saw it too"


OR, if wild shape isn't available to you go mystic ranger. You get spells at first level. Can still trade tack for trapfinder. Arcane hunter comes online at 2nd level instead. You lean more on using a crossbow/bow and not on martial weapons.


Or just go spellthief - slow sneak attacks and steals spells out of the arcanists head.

[ChaosStar]

Spellthief or Swift Hunter are the main ways. Swift Hunter being a feat from Complete Scoundrel that lets you stack Ranger and Scout levels for Favored Enemy and Skirmish.

[Gruftzwerg]

....

I am also checking out the scout class. Seems neat. Gets more stuff than the rogue I think, dmg is easier to do, but it dodges basically all CHA skills I think. It basically avoids full attacks.
...

It is common to build some kind of workaround for scouts movement.

anything that gives you extra/free movement:

- Travel Devotion
- Belt of Battle
- Anklet of Translocation

..just to name a few options. anything that counts as movement (including short range teleports) is viable.

[ChaosStar]

It is common to build some kind of workaround for scouts movement.

anything that gives you extra/free movement:

- Travel Devotion
- Belt of Battle
- Anklet of Translocation

..just to name a few options. anything that counts as movement (including short range teleports) is viable.

Don't forget Manyshot and Greater Manyshot.

[Bobur]

I had to read over the spell thief a couple of times.

I think the main use would be to let go of your limited SA dmg and use it to remove buff spells from an enemy. IF you hit that is. You cant steal spells from afar except for the ones that are shot at you, that you can store. Knowing what kind of spells your enemy can cast ahead of time is very unlikely against normal casters. Against monsters and other creatures it could work with good knw checks that tell you in advance.
The spellcasting is a cherry on top. Compared to an assasin, you get spells 2Lvs earlier, but the assasin catches up quickly and actually gets more spells.
Casting det magic in nice and the +1sv vs spells is great too.
I am not sure, but I think he has about the same skills as a normal rogue?

As for ranger builds: Isnt the rogue the go to class for small races since they usually have bad STR stats?
I sort of have to remember how a normal build would look like ^^ thematically an urban ranger would be the best fit for the character.

And of course maybe going for a ranged build would be better than melee? SA usually applies when you are in a flanking position or does it work when you are 30ft away and the target is flanked by your allies?

[ChaosStar]

I had to read over the spell thief a couple of times.

I think the main use would be to let go of your limited SA dmg and use it to remove buff spells from an enemy. IF you hit that is. You cant steal spells from afar except for the ones that are shot at you, that you can store. Knowing what kind of spells your enemy can cast ahead of time is very unlikely against normal casters. Against monsters and other creatures it could work with good knw checks that tell you in advance.
The spellcasting is a cherry on top. Compared to an assasin, you get spells 2Lvs earlier, but the assasin catches up quickly and actually gets more spells.
Casting det magic in nice and the +1sv vs spells is great too.
I am not sure, but I think he has about the same skills as a normal rogue?

As for ranger builds: Isnt the rogue the go to class for small races since they usually have bad STR stats?
I sort of have to remember how a normal build would look like ^^ thematically an urban ranger would be the best fit for the character.

And of course maybe going for a ranged build would be better than melee? SA usually applies when you are in a flanking position or does it work when you are 30ft away and the target is flanked by your allies?
Ranged Sneak Attacks are 30 ft. only. There is a feat that extends that to 60 feet though. For Sneak Attack to work you have to either flank your opponent or deny his Dexterity bonus to AC. Using Tanglefoot Bags or Hiding then Attacking are the easiest ways to do that.

[gijoemike]

Urban Ranger trades Tracking away for a different ability Urban Tracking. By RAW you couldn't stack the ACF to trade the free Track Feat for trapfinding. BTW, that is the only reason I didn't suggest Urban Ranger because I totally agree with you in that it is a much better fit for the character.


What about this class
Scout - skirmish works if the character has moved 10 ft prior in the round. It progresses at the same dice damage as spellthief. But also gets extra AC. This class was built for spring attack/hit-and-run tactics. No spells.


Any class can take weapon finesse. Not just rogue and not just small races. To attempt to compensate for bad strength players will go scout, rogue, spellthief for extra dice under certain circumstances.



Sneak attack has a few glaring weaknesses. Really I asked the question of why rogue rooted in this.
Undead don't take extra damage from SA, skirmish. Oozes, elementals, any incorporeal creature also don't take any damage. There are armor enchantments and a few class features that take it away too. But more importantly it is a pain in the rear end to get SA at range. It requires a spell, or alchemical items+action as setup. I have never had good results with ranged rogues in pure 3.5. There are feats in PF that greatly mitigate these weaknesses.



To have spells and rogue as the class you MUST multiclass into 2 classes that have 2 tier base attack. And most likely your PrC will also be 2nd tier. Losing that much base attack early on can be really painful.


Going Ranger gets you sneak, traps, spells but you keep top tier base attack. You can still weapon finesse and have the option of 2 weapon fighting. You will have a companion to flank with. The extra damage will come from the spell heavy blades, animal companion, and the +2 from favored enemy. And undead, elementals still will not take the extra damage.

[Bobur]

Ah yes, I thought as much. A sneak attack with range seems a lot harder to do than a melee one.
I was checking the ranger again and while nice, I was wondering how a small race would get some good dmg with -2ST -2Wis as that is usually the reason for small races to go for Sneak attack or casting.

Since it was mentioned I currently read over the pathfinder rogue. Looks very much the same except that they get additional talents, which is not exactly like feats, but at least its more.

I remember the problems of a rogueish character when I played a beguiler.
The ACF penetrating strike helps. - 1/2 SA dmg against anything that's otherwise immune from what I remember.

I guess the appeal of SA is the very high potential dmg AT TIMES. But unlike regular melees, you do not get it on every attack.

But let's amuse the urban ranger build for a moment. Ranger/scout seems to be the way to go here while staying (urban) ranger as much as possible... If I remember correctly the skirmish dmg scales more slowly than SA, but is easier to apply. The same enemies that would be immune to SA are also immune to skirmish, yes?
And without skirmish, we would entirely rely on STR for dmg. We get better atks, saves, and HP though. Fewer skills but some spells... very very few. ^^ But again, with the Kender stats I don't think a full ranger build would beadviseable.

A pure bard would obviously be better then a rogue in any way, except for dmg. If I could just mix the classes together I would be happy. ^^

[Gruftzwerg]

Ah yes, I thought as much. A sneak attack with range seems a lot harder to do than a melee one.
I was checking the ranger again and while nice, I was wondering how a small race would get some good dmg with -2ST -2Wis as that is usually the reason for small races to go for Sneak attack or casting.

With optimized builds anything is possible, you just need access to books xD

A hand-crossbow build can be great if optimized. They can even be optimized without SA if you want and still be deadly (as in my El Mariachi build). And if you want to go the SA route, you can feat Crossbow Sniper for double SA range (60ft instead of 30ft).
With crossbows you can dump your Str score and can feat/build for extra dmg from Dex (which the small races would favor).

Warlocks (as mentioned) are also for small races a good option to become stealthy and deadly combatants with Eldritch Glaive as main damage source. A good pick of Invocations to enhance the stealth flair of the build and nothing can stop your lil charater. My glaivelock is featuring a iil tiny (sized) Kobold with a STR score of 1! He flies into his enemies face/space and picks em to death before they notice him.

[Bobur]

With optimized builds anything is possible, you just need access to books xD

A hand-crossbow build can be great if optimized. They can even be optimized without SA if you want and still be deadly (as in my El Mariachi build). And if you want to go the SA route, you can feat Crossbow Sniper for double SA range (60ft instead of 30ft).
With crossbows you can dump your Str score and can feat/build for extra dmg from Dex (which the small races would favor).

Warlocks (as mentioned) are also for small races a good option to become stealthy and deadly combatants with Eldritch Glaive as main damage source. A good pick of Invocations to enhance the stealth flair of the build and nothing can stop your lil charater. My glaivelock is featuring a iil tiny (sized) Kobold with a STR score of 1! He flies into his enemies face/space and picks em to death before they notice him.

Yea, I think you cleared my mind up a bit. (While the warlock is interesting, the lack of skills is a downer to me)
- Mixing a spellcaster class like Bard in will likely not be much good for a low BAB melee class unless you get invisibility or some awesome stuff. Low lv spells can just be replaced with items rather easily - still nice to have though. ;) The rogue gets UMD for exactly that reason. Sadly he doesnt get much else, which I believe he should.
The Pathfinder Rogue gets talents every 2 or 3 levels. That would add a lot already. Could be used for a feat once, maybe free skill tricks and alike...The 5e rogue is already a lot better designed: Extra movement and doge.

The main reason I always come back to the rogue is the strong limitations in what my GM will likely allow or not. So aside from spellcasting or an odd small race STR build there really isnt much in terms of options.

GISH: (Does that just mean that you multiclass a caster and non caster class or could you make a new class from it?)
Comparing a cleric to a rogue makes me laugh.: Same BAB, heavy armor and weapons, full spell casting, good HP, good saves, extra abilities... lacks a bit in skills though. XD
If I look at it like that, why shouldnt it be ok to mix a bard with a rogue into a gish character? Maybe a feat for full SA progression + full bard spells? Less skills then a full rogue und maybe no evasion/uncanny dodge.
Or vice versa: Start from rogue, less skills, but bard spell progression without the other bard options?

After some research, the more classic approach would be Wiz/Rogue for the INT synnergy > Unseen sear and or arcane trickster as mentioned before.
I would be surprised if there wasn't something similar for a rogue bard combination. I entertain the thought enough to make some homebrew stuff. Either as its own class or as a PrC.
Actually, maybe rewriting an Arcane trickster into something that fits a bard/rogue mix more would be neat. SA+ spellprogression, but D6 HD and 6 skillpoints. Maybe you could play around with the other abilities.

[Fouredged Sword]

GISH refers to something specific. It refers to a build that has high BAB and casting.

But having a think on things I think I have found the class for you. It's basically human only, but the human heritage feat fixes that.

Chameleon. It's the ultimate "not sure what to play" class, having 6th level arcane and divine casting from every spell list in the game.

Also, if you just want a dash of really useful magic on your rogue, consider the Trapsmith class. It's a 5 level long class that grants some spellcasting, but don't let the low spell levels fool you. Trapsmith spellcasting has spells of significantly lower than normal level. For example it makes haste and dispel magic both 1st level spells.

[Anthrowhale]

Some points that may be helpful.

1) The easiest way to make a rogue/bard is actually to make a rogue/bard/cleric using Sacred Outlaw (Dragon #357), Sacred Performer (Dragon #357), Cloistered Cleric (Unearthed Arcana), and Able Learner (Races of Destiny). Example: Rogue 1/Bard 1/Cloistered Cleric 3/Shadowbane Stalker 3/Cloistered Cleric 12 with feats: 1)Able Learner human) Craven 3) Sacred Performer 6) ?? 9) Sacred Outlaw. Alternate entries are via Martial stance[Assassin's Stance] (delaying Sacred Outlaw until level 12 but eliminating Shadowbane Stalker and Rogue 1) or Heartfire Fanner 1 (delaying bardic music to level 8 while eliminating the level of Bard).
2) Precision damage to the otherwise-immune is provided via Swift Hunter (for a Scout/Ranger) or the Lightbringer Rogue Penetrating Strike ACF.
3) There are a few ways to trigger a flank sneak attack more consistently. Double Team (Dragon Compendium) potentially works with a companion although it requires BAB+6. Adaptable Flanker (PHBII) allows you to self-flank although it requires 3 feats. Despana School (Drow of the Underdark) allows you and a summoned monster to flank regardless of geometry.

[Bobur]

Thank you everyone so much.
After all the ideas and a lot of thoughts, I came to the conclusion that the magic idea is really just for flavor because I thought it would give me some nice options and it would fit the backstory. But considering the lack of books that I have to work with most of the magical class ideas won't be possible. I know the urban ranger would be finde and I assume the scout would get a green light too. But something like craven and a lot of other feats are very unlikely.
This also focuses everything back to what the class actually is: DMG Skillmonkey. Which still fits the character (highly trained thief)

I am still talking to my GM if we can make the pure rogue a bit more appealing. Like a free skill trick every 2-3 levels - like the Pathfinder version.

Aside from that the best options with the few books remaining will be the obvious ones:

As a reminder, we start on Lv2 and are unlikely to go beyond Lv10 or 12. (Another reason against something like Arcane trickster)
I now know the other classes in the group but only very vaguely: Cleric, Monk and the last one is undecided but thinks about a spellcaster.

Afflicted Kender: 30ft speed, +1 on saves, small and the Kender skill boni +2 on spot, sleight o.h., open lock, as well as those that replace the fear immunity/taunt from normal kender: +2 jump, climb, hide and move silently
Also you can use open lock and sleight of hand even without any skillpoints in it.
The replacement for fear immunity while useful seems a bit uninteresting. I try to get my GM to change it into the kill bonus that humans have.
Kender feats are very weak again: Better stealing, better taunt, +4 on escape artist...stuff like that.

Rogue>Assassin Again the homebrew version of the Assa. Has the great ACF for Kender rogues. Basically, a free spring attack without Aoos and a hide check without penalty if you end up next to cover. Easily the best thing for Kender in all of the books.

There is also an ACF for Lv1 Kender fighter that basically treats your weapon as 1 size larger but removes the feat
And 1 for Kender ranger that trades endurance on Lv3 for a sense motive check to gain +2AC vs 1 enemy.

Rogue3 for the pen strike ACF/ 2 Urban Ranger for 2WF>Assassin
Better BAB, HP, +1 feat and access to Ranger spells // -1SA

City Dweller Scout/Urban Ranger >?
Easier dmg than SA (less dmg early on, same on Lv5 and again less afterwards. Full rogue outscales it even more), more HP, better Saves and BAB, Feats, still a lot of skills and spells/companion if we stay ranger instead of a Prc.
The bad: I would have to talk my GM into making the assassin a ranger-ish class or something alike. No UMD skill and a lot of CHA skills are lacking as well as some of the common thief skills.
No evasion either. Our -2Wis make it hard to get any spells unless we completely didge the CHA AND reduce INT.
The scout build - if combined with the ACF somehow would work really well for hit and run and less for flanking.

Dragonlance: Handler PrC
Man what a weak class. You become a god-like thief and get a bardic knowledge ability for flavor. The good things are hide in plain sight (Lv10) and the CHA to saves, but both come way too late. Aside from that it really doesn't support anything in battle unless you want to rob your enemies blind instead of killing them.

Feats are always problematic. W finesse, 2WF...could take rapid shot from the ranger, but point blank shot would be way better. ^^ Impr Ini is also great.

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Edit: Ok, I talked to my GM again and its pretty much down to the Rogue3/Ranger2/assasin build after all.^^ I will have to take the 2 ranger Lvs right after the first rogue lv to get the feats together.
There is also a fun feat that improves your Kender taunt ability. Make a bluff check vs sense motive or the enemy gets -2ATK, -2AC. Req 13CHarisma. Maybe we build something around that into the prc as well.
Otherwise Impr Ini is alway great.

Thanks again everyone, you were a great help.