Call me brutally heartless...

[pendell]

... but why are E, V, and Durkon still cruising the seas with Hinjo?

I understand Hinjo and company need to take back their city. But c'mon, Xykon doesn't care about their city. He wants the next gate ... Girard's gate. As soon as he knows where it is, he and the army will head there. Then will be the time to take back the city.

And ... I hate to say this, but it's none of the OOTS' concern.

The mission of the OOTS is 1) vanquish Xykon and protect the gates 2) resurrect Roy. I fail to see how sailing around for four months with Hinjo, leaving Haley and Belkar to
stumble around either in Azure City or in the wilderness, advances either of these goals. Whether Azure City is ever liberated, or the entire population is massacred, is entirely irrelevant to the mission goals.

The liberation of Azure City is a job for Hinjo and the army of Azure City. It is not a job for the OOTS. Dungeon Crawling through Girard's puzzle palace and rescuing Roy is the OOTS' job. I don't see how this is helping.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[blackspeeker]

Well it isnt their responsibility to help them retake the city, but to our knowledge, xykon is still in Azure City, along with Haley, and they are supposed to stop Xykon, so while he is there, they should try and hold and keep him there until they take him down.

[Lupus Major]

How are they supposed to go on a prolonged dungeon crawl with neither fighter nor rogue? At the moment, the Order consists of Elan, Durkon and Vaarsuvius. On their own, they' last about 1 hour in a dungeon designed for the complete order.

Besides, if they want to give Haley and Belkar a chance to find them, they need to stay some place conspicuous, for lack of a better word. Like a large fleet. And who knows, perhaps V has already gone scouting?

[Yuki Akuma]

The Order are largely Good-aligned.

That's all the reason they need.

"You don't need a reason to help people."

[The Wanderer]

The main reason they'd still be cruising about is because Haley and Belkar must have never made it out of the city. Now, as I'm not up on D&D stuff, I may be mistaken, but they're still going to need a ton of loot and at least some piece of the remains of each in order to do resurrections. Which is a little difficult to do with tens of thousands of hobgoblins, and a certain lich hanging around the city where Roy, Haley, and Belkar are.

Hence being part of the effort to retake the city.

[filmore]

The Order are largely Good-aligned.

That's all the reason they need.

"You don't need a reason to help people."

oh man... that's a moral quagmire...

If a Paladin is ORDERED to deliver a message critical to the survival of his kingdom, hence, ASAP... and comes across a group of goblins/whatever harassing a fair maiden...

Does the paladin forsake his Good to carry out his orders?
or forsake his Lawful to take time and help people?

[Yuki Akuma]

oh man... that's a moral quagmire...

If a Paladin is ORDERED to deliver a message critical to the survival of his kingdom, hence, ASAP... and comes across a group of goblins/whatever harassing a fair maiden...

Does the paladin forsake his Good to carry out his orders?
or forsake his Lawful to take time and help people?

Depends on the Paladin and how fast he thinks he can rescue the maiden.

[Querzis]

The Order are largely Good-aligned.

That's all the reason they need.

"You don't need a reason to help people."

Exactly. Do you really think Elan, Durkon, Haley or Roy if he was alive would let so much innocent die just to get to Girard gate first? If they coudnt retake the city, its quite obvious Xykon and Redcloak are still there and there is no way the order will leave Hinjo alone with that bastard Kubota who always want to assassinate him as long as Xykon is still in that city. And yes, I'm gonna call you brutally heartless:smallwink: .

Anyway, as for V, I'm sure it woudnt bother him that much to let Hinjo take cares of things alone but hes not gonna leave without Haley or Roy.

Edit: and for a REAL paladin, good is always much more important then Lawfull so unless that message will result in the death of innocents if he dont deliver it, of course hes gonna try to save the maiden or die trying. Its the same things with the good old: «A demon ask you to kill a little girl or he destroy the world.» Not only does the paladin attack the demons because its more good but you'd have to be pretty damn dumb to believe the demon:

A. if he really can destroy the world, hes gonna do it anyway.

B. I find it much more likely that killing an innocent child will give the demons power to destroy the world then not killing her.

[filmore]

He judges what is in the interests of the greater good. In the example you name, that would be saving his people. Unless, of course, saving the maiden would not take an inordinate amount of time.

Isn't that more Neutral Good?

[GKBeetle]

You are brutally heartless. :smallbiggrin:

[Yuki Akuma]

Isn't that more Neutral Good?

Yes. Why can't a Paladin act simply Good occasionally? Paladins should uphold Good more than Law, that's the entire point.

[Korias]

"You don't need a reason to help people."

... FFIX?!

Anyway, the Order was hired BY HINJO to help him (Or, at the very least, be a bodyguard). Since Hinjo needs the help, and the Order members present are all good aligned, therefore its logical.

Plus, retaking the city is in their best intrest: With Azure City back in motion, the order has a good base of operations, plus a gate under their control. Stopping Xykon at the gate is the only way to stop him at all: No seige can be held, apparently.

[Ancalagon]

... but why are E, V, and Durkon still cruising the seas with Hinjo?

I understand Hinjo and company need to take back their city. But c'mon, Xykon doesn't care about their city. He wants the next gate ... Girard's gate. As soon as he knows where it is, he and the army will head there. Then will be the time to take back the city.

And ... I hate to say this, but it's none of the OOTS' concern.

The mission of the OOTS is 1) vanquish Xykon and protect the gates 2) resurrect Roy. I fail to see how sailing around for four months with Hinjo, leaving Haley and Belkar to
stumble around either in Azure City or in the wilderness, advances either of these goals. Whether Azure City is ever liberated, or the entire population is massacred, is entirely irrelevant to the mission goals.

The liberation of Azure City is a job for Hinjo and the army of Azure City. It is not a job for the OOTS. Dungeon Crawling through Girard's puzzle palace and rescuing Roy is the OOTS' job. I don't see how this is helping.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Maybe you should wait before you know more of the story?

[Yuki Akuma]

Maybe you should wait before you know more of the story?

Where's the fun in that? :smallwink:

[pendell]

That last response was quite good, Yuki_Akuma; thank you.

I *would* leave Hinjo & co to their own devices. Why?

1) If Xykon wins at Gerard's gate, Azure City's fate is irrelevant. He will rule the universe or unleash the snarl and destroy creation.

2) If Xykon loses at Gerards' gate, Azure city can be liberated from the hobgoblins at leisure.

"What about innocent lives?" But those lives aren't under threat. As long as they can get supplies they will not starve, and Xykon will not pursue them. Why should he? He's got his eye on the prize. He doesn't care about them at all.

The bottom line is that, from the perspective of the OOTS, liberating Azure City gives them nothing, but it will cost resources and time they can't use to go to the next gate. Not to mention risking their lives to little gain.

Why should they spend their time helping re-capture ... what? I strongly doubt there are any innocents left alive in Azure City after four months. The town was nearly destroyed, and has doubtless been thoroughly looted. The only thing the Order will gain is a bunch of wrecked, abandoned buildings.

And to get these abandoned buildings, we'll fight the sorcerer lich who won the battle to begin with. A sorcerer lich who, all by himself, is probably undefeatable by the entire Order and by Azure City. Not to mention Redcloak, the MitD, and the hobbos.

This is a no-win situation. Let them have the ruined city ... the more time they waste on it, the more time we have to set up a world-class ambush at Gerard's Gate. Attacking Azure City will cost lives and time. And if we win, what will that do? Send Xykon towards the next gate even faster, is my guess.


As Durkon said, "you've got to do the good you can, when ye can. Otherwise ye do no good at all."

The only reason I can see why this might be a good idea is if Haley and Belkar are still trapped in the city. If so, this campaign makes sense to rescue them and Roy's body.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Querzis]

That last response was quite good, Yuki_Akuma; thank you.

I *would* leave Hinjo & co to their own devices. Why?

1) If Xykon wins at Gerard's gate, Azure City's fate is irrelevant. He will rule the universe or unleash the snarl and destroy creation.

2) If Xykon loses at Gerards' gate, Azure city can be liberated from the hobgoblins at leisure.

"What about innocent lives?" But those lives aren't under threat. As long as they can get supplies they will not starve, and Xykon will not pursue them. Why should he? He's got his eye on the prize. He doesn't care about them at all.

The bottom line is that, from the perspective of the OOTS, liberating Azure City gives them nothing, but it will cost resources and time they can't use to go to the next gate. Not to mention risking their lives to little gain.

Why should they spend their time helping re-capture ... what? I strongly doubt there are any innocents left alive in Azure City after four months. The town was nearly destroyed, and has doubtless been thoroughly looted. The only thing the Order will gain is a bunch of wrecked, abandoned buildings.

And to get these abandoned buildings, we'll fight the sorcerer lich who won the battle to begin with. A sorcerer lich who, all by himself, is probably undefeatable by the entire Order and by Azure City. Not to mention Redcloak, the MitD, and the hobbos.

This is a no-win situation. Let them have the ruined city ... the more time they waste on it, the more time we have to set up a world-class ambush at Gerard's Gate.

Sure, a world class ambush from 6 people against an army now thats a great idea...they got AC forces to help them destroy Xykon army right now, why the hell should they try to take on them all alone? Even if Xykon, Redcloak and Mitd do absolutely nothing, there is no way they are gonna win against 20 000 hobgobelins, some of which have class levels.

If they coudnt retake the city until now, its quite obvious Xykon is still there and as long as he is, why should they go right now to Girard gate and let Hinjo die so that Kubota rule instead of fighting with Hinjo army to kill as much hobgobelins as they can?

Its not just more good to stay with Hinjo, its much more effective too. And yes, if they dont get help this is a no-win situation which is why they have been trying to get help from allied nation.

You seems to believe for some reasons that getting to Girard gate first will make the hobgobelins disappear or make the OOTS stronger or give them some sort of advantage, it wont. The only difference it will make is that they are gonna fight without Hinjo help. This is a war, its stopped being dungeon crawling since Xykon got that army and in a war, you better get as much ally as you can, which is what they have been doing.

[chibibar]

Ok... How do you propose that Durkon, Elan and V take on Xykon on their own? 3 against how many hobos? PLUS two elite which taken out their leader.

DEV (Short for Durkon Elan and V) are short in firepower and ability on their own. They are trying their best to figure out a way to get to Haley and Belkar.

Remember, the hobo owns AC now and they will be at a defending position. Normal "rules" of warfare requires at least 3x the number for a successful breach.

Hinjo is no where NEAR that number.

Also, DEV is not the stealthiest of the bunch ;)

[jmucchiello]

V can cast both fly and invisibility. Breaching the hobgoblin forces is moot whether there are 2,000 or 200,000 hobgoblins. The problem is they can't defeat Xykon by themselves. They aren't high enough level. Cruising around in a boat doing other adventures should be giving them levels. That will make it possible for them to defeat Xykon.

[Alfryd]

And ... I hate to say this, but it's none of the OOTS' concern.
Yeah, but it IS Hinjo's, and he's the one steering the fleet. Plus, there may be practical benefits to sticking around for at least the short term, as his assistance may be required for any rendezvous with Haley and Belkar.

"You don't need a reason to help people."
As has been pointed out, the single most efficient method of 'helping people' is to destroy Xykon, and thus prevent the Snarl potentially devouring every living creature on the planet.
Prioritise, people!

Does the paladin forsake his Good to carry out his orders?
or forsake his Lawful to take time and help people?
That has nothing to do with Lawful vs. Good. It has to do with Greater or Lesser Evil.

[NikkTheTrick]

V can cast both fly and invisibility.

Actually, V did not have fly in the beginning of the comic. We have not seen him getting it either.

[†Seer†]

Actually, V did not have fly in the beginning of the comic. We have not seen him getting it either.

We don't know what all V scribed in AC, so if the plot needs it to be true, V could have Fly.

[pendell]

Ok... How do you propose that Durkon, Elan and V take on Xykon on their own? 3 against how many hobos? PLUS two elite which taken out their leader.

DEV (Short for Durkon Elan and V) are short in firepower and ability on their own. They are trying their best to figure out a way to get to Haley and Belkar.

Remember, the hobo owns AC now and they will be at a defending position. Normal "rules" of warfare requires at least 3x the number for a successful breach.

Hinjo is no where NEAR that number.

Also, DEV is not the stealthiest of the bunch ;)

Responding to two different people, but I think this one will be quicker:


Ok... How do you propose that Durkon, Elan and V take on Xykon on their own? 3 against how many hobos? PLUS two elite which taken out their leader.


The first thing I need to point out is that this isn't a war game. High level adventurers have a *big* advantage over zero-level NPCs. Belkar alone held the entire southern flank of the battle of Azure City all by himself. Vaarsuvius, all by himself and the aid
of a couple 6th-level fighters, held the northern wall.

PCs are vastly overpowered compared to the cannon fodder NPCs.

So you'll pardon me if I discount the hobbos. The real threat from Team Evil is Xykon, Redcloak, MiTD, and Tsukiko. We're not even sure that the hobbos will be any use against Girard's defenses anyway.

So what would I do, in their shoes?

1) Rescue Haley, Belkar and Roy. This is top-priority. The gang back together has a much better chance of taking out Xykon than they do separately. Besides, they *owe* Haley and Belkar. Getting the adventuring party together should take precedence over wooing the Southern nations and organizing the refugees of Azure City ... as amply demonstrated, this is something Hinjo needs no help with. Their talents are being wasted.

2) Learn everything I can about fighting liches. We need to know about phylacteries before our next battle.

3) Go to Gerard's gate and learn as much about the defenses as we can, preferably without neutralizing them altogether. This can be done with stealth and intelligence.

4) Conceal ourselves next to the gate with the world's biggest bowl of cheetos and wait for Xykon to show up with his army. Let Gerards' defenses meatgrinder the hobbos, or force them to stay outside altogether.

5) Eventually, Xykon, Redcloak and the MiTD will fight their way through the
defenses. Don't think there will be an epic-level paladin waiting for them, but surely there will be something else there to sap his energy and spellcasting points. THEN, just as he's fought through all the puzzles and at his weakest point, THEN step in, have Roy beat him to bits with the +5 Greenhilt sword, then smash his phylactery while V hits redcloak with disintegrate. Meanwhile, Haley and the others distract the MiTD until R and X are down. The MITD may very well kill us all, but if X and R are down the gates are safe.

My point is that there's little -- apart from getting rid of that eeevil red voice with Kubota, which I concede does need to happen ... they can do on the boats that requires their unique talents. Hinjo, Kazumi, and Dago have the situation well in hand. Meanwhile, they are missing half the adventuring party.



Remember, the hobo owns AC now and they will be at a defending position. Normal "rules" of warfare requires at least 3x the number for a successful breach.


Pshaw. To quote Terry Pratchett's takeoff of Sun Tzu, "if your enemy is in an impregnable fortress, make sure he stays there".

Xykon can defend AC from now until Doomsday and it won't get him a step closer to the gate. If he wants to actually conquer the world, he has to leave the city sooner or later. Even if we use the AC army, far better to wait until they've left their fortified position and are on the move than assault them head-on in the city. Xykon has no interest in the city, remember. So wait for him to leave and hit him then. Or sweep in behind him and capture the city when he's left and cut off the army's supply base.

My point is, with the gate gone AC is of no strategic value. Psychological value to the AC townspeople, yes, but unless Xykon wants to rebuild and divert his soldiers into farming, trades etc (yah, right) he's expended 1/3rd of his force to capture a heap of rubble. I say he's welcome to it until he decides to leave. THEN we can take it back after he's left it. If we like, we can even have the AC army follow up and hit him from behind while his army is engaged with the defenses of Gerard's gate.

Still, Alfryd has a good point ... there may be an advantage to staying with Hinjo which will assist them in accomplishing the above far more rapidly I suppose if this is so Giant will reveal the fact in a future plot point.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Charles Phipps]

Meh.

Roy's gone, they probably think Haley is dead, and the same for Belkar. At this point, Elan and company probably think that they need Hinjo to defeat Xyrkon if they're thinking of that at all.

But yeah, there's no obligation to Roy since his spirit has fled the coup and they probably assume he's in a better place.

[chibibar]

Pendell.... if you have that mentality in my gaming session... you are toast :)

I am not sure if this was an old rule or house rule. I have been using this for ages. I remember the old D&D rules about fighting mass enemies. A single fighter can take upto 8 hand to hand (and have sweeps) per round. Also you have to consider we are talking literally 30-40 thousands.....

A single mage might be able to take them out say... 10-12? per spell? maybe? if they are clump together.

Also don't forget that the group is trying to break into the city and rescue their friend. They have no clue where Roy, Belkar and Haley is currently at and no way of communicating with them. This mean a prolong battle trying to find them.

Hide and seek type game. We know that Elan, V and Durkon are not the highest stealth people out there. Durkon would make too much noise and attract the local hobbo's patrol and get attack. Sure he can handle 100-200 but what about the next 1000 or 2000? remember the hobbo are outnumber 15 to 1 (I think that was right... correct me if I'm wrong)

if they swarm durkon alone (highest AC compare to Elan and V) he can take on at least 8 at a time any more than that is auto hit for at least 1 point of damage (no damage reduction) eventually the hobbos could overpower him via pure swarming effect.

V...... V is great for range combat... hand to hand and V is a goner. How many spell can V cast? how many fireball can you shoot out? V is a Wizard which mean prep spells. V probably gonna need invisibility for sure so far V doesn't have Fly... and have only the CHEAP circle of invisibility (it could be a joke who knows we don't know V's full spell power)

Now... while the DEV trying to find their friend. Xykon would taken notice. Heck Redcloak would notice. I'm sure the city is regulary patrol and sweep for intruders. Any slightest chance of disturbance is going to be report and I can tell you that DEV is going to be in big trouble IF they don't find Haley, Belkar and Roy sooner.

Of course this whole point is Moot compare to the power of plot BUT if this was a scenario for a gaming session. Charging "head-on" with just three people would be suicidal. Stealthing "head-on" would not work as well unless V got some serious spells. like the following would work (assuming there aren't any magical defenses and detection.

Silence 10' radius - this will come in handy for Durkon's clanking amor.
Extended Invisibility 10' radius - This will help search the area with free action without having to drop the circle while looking. Of course this mean that all three have to stick together.
Mass Teleport - Once the group is found.... teleport out of there.

Now..... we assume (either way) that V may or may not have these spells. And I currently forgot which school V is barred from.

Edit: The OoTS (what left of them) could assume that Xykon might leave to search for the other gate BUT remember.... Xykon is not sure what defenses are there. Also we know that Redcloak is planning to keep the city for his people (better land and such than his people currently have) so some of the troops will stay behind. You don't get 90+ legions for being wishy washy.

[SPoD]

Three thoughts:

1.) OOTS has lost its first and second in command. The sort of strategic decision-making you are suggesting needs to happen is entirely beyond the three remaining members. Elan is an emotionally-driven fool, Vaarsuvius will save his/her own skin in a pinch, and Durkon does whatever he thinks Thor wants him to do, despite being pretty bad at interpreting Thor's will. They simply aren't leadership material. Hinjo is, so they follow him.

2.) There's no evidence that the three remaining members OR Hinjo have ANY IDEA where Girard's Gate is. Shojo knew. Roy knew, because Shojo told him. Hinjo, as a paladin, was forbidden by oath to know. And the rest of the OOTS probably didn't take notes. All they know is, "In the desert somewhere."

3.) How would they get there? Is Hinjo going to spare them a ship? V can't teleport, Durkon can't either. They would have to essentially abandon their strongest ally and hire a ship to sail to someplace they don't know to find something they can't locate.

So it may not be a matter of whether or not they can be heartless. If they don't have the means to go to Girard's Gate, they can't go.

[Querzis]

Pendell.... if you have that mentality in my gaming session... you are toast :)

I am not sure if this was an old rule or house rule. I have been using this for ages. I remember the old D&D rules about fighting mass enemies. A single fighter can take upto 8 hand to hand (and have sweeps) per round. Also you have to consider we are talking literally 30-40 thousands.....

A single mage might be able to take them out say... 10-12? per spell? maybe? if they are clump together.

Also don't forget that the group is trying to break into the city and rescue their friend. They have no clue where Roy, Belkar and Haley is currently at and no way of communicating with them. This mean a prolong battle trying to find them.

Hide and seek type game. We know that Elan, V and Durkon are not the highest stealth people out there. Durkon would make too much noise and attract the local hobbo's patrol and get attack. Sure he can handle 100-200 but what about the next 1000 or 2000? remember the hobbo are outnumber 15 to 1 (I think that was right... correct me if I'm wrong)

if they swarm durkon alone (highest AC compare to Elan and V) he can take on at least 8 at a time any more than that is auto hit for at least 1 point of damage (no damage reduction) eventually the hobbos could overpower him via pure swarming effect.

V...... V is great for range combat... hand to hand and V is a goner. How many spell can V cast? how many fireball can you shoot out? V is a Wizard which mean prep spells. V probably gonna need invisibility for sure so far V doesn't have Fly... and have only the CHEAP circle of invisibility (it could be a joke who knows we don't know V's full spell power)

Now... while the DEV trying to find their friend. Xykon would taken notice. Heck Redcloak would notice. I'm sure the city is regulary patrol and sweep for intruders. Any slightest chance of disturbance is going to be report and I can tell you that DEV is going to be in big trouble IF they don't find Haley, Belkar and Roy sooner.

Of course this whole point is Moot compare to the power of plot BUT if this was a scenario for a gaming session. Charging "head-on" with just three people would be suicidal. Stealthing "head-on" would not work as well unless V got some serious spells. like the following would work (assuming there aren't any magical defenses and detection.

Silence 10' radius - this will come in handy for Durkon's clanking amor.
Extended Invisibility 10' radius - This will help search the area with free action without having to drop the circle while looking. Of course this mean that all three have to stick together.
Mass Teleport - Once the group is found.... teleport out of there.

V cant teleport, they didnt asked Shojo for a wizard who could teleport for nothing. V is a blaster, even if he would have any other spells, he would still blast first and ask question later. And as long as he dont have Greater invisibility, normal invisibility wont help in combat situation.

Anyway, all of this is without counting the fact that all the hobs got one chance out of 400 to one hit anyone in the OOTS since we know, from paladins blues bonus strip, that Rich use the rule were two crit=automatic kill...and they are 20 000. The hobgobelins are the real threat here, without them, Xykon and Redcloak woudnt have been able to conquer AC. Of course, maybe the MITD could be a greater threat then 20 000 hobgobelins since he really seems to be at least an epic monster (and a really strong one) but you can deal with Mitd without having to fight, just buy him some dolls for his tea party.

[pendell]

I think SPOD hit it. The reason VED are following Hinjo around like little puppies is that none of them have enough leadership ability to command latrine duty. They're followers, and that's what they are doing here ... following.



Pendell.... if you have that mentality in my gaming session... you are toast :)


I wouldn't bring that mentality to *your* gaming session, or to a game of Squad Leader or Panzerblitz. But OOTS seems to be in a world that rewards munchkin PCs, where
It's quite possible for an epic-level fighter to pull a Samson and take on an entire army with the jawbone of an ass (improvised weapon, -4 mod) and walk off without breaking a sweat.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Porthos]

It's quite possible for an epic-level fighter to pull a Samson and take on an entire army with the jawbone of an ass (improvised weapon, -4 mod) and walk off without breaking a sweat.


Putting aside, for the moment, that none of the OotS are Epic, the whole point of this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html) is that a single person can't take out an army. Remember, even Belkar had to down his potions of healing to not die on the battlefield. And if Belkar hadn't gotten exceedingly lucky by intimidating old Skullzy, he probably would have went down. Especially if Redcloak hadn't redeployed his forces.

Sooner or later all of those hobgoblins would grind the OotS down. That's why Haley and Belkar snuck in and out of the city instead of brazenly walking down the street.

While they might be able to take 200 hobgoblins by themselves or even 500, once you get into the 1000 or 5000 range, you are toast. Toast, I say. :smallsmile:

[Antamar]

One of the points that you're missing is that if they rescue Belkar and Haley are rescued and Roy rezzed, they would immediately go after Xykon in an attempt to end his threat forever. Plus, having the backing of one of the most powerful bastions of Good in the world would be helpful in destroying.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

1) Rescue Haley, Belkar and Roy. This is top-priority.
As near as we or anyone else can tell, Haley, Belkar, and Roy's body are all still trapped in what remains of Azure City. Taking back the city may be the only way to achieve that. Therefore, hanging out with Hinjo may be the most appropriate course of action in regards to that goal.

In any case, Xykon has thusfar proven to be virtually unstoppable. I would not wish to rely on a plan that lets him get anywhere near any of the other gates. It's certainly safer for the world to take the fight to Xykon, even if it's not necessarily the most efficient plan in terms of strategy.

[The Extinguisher]

Oh yes, it makes a lot of sense, but ask yourself this one question:

When has this comic ever been about making sense and choosing the very best thing to do?

[TheElfLord]

Who cares about going to the next gate?

The Order isn't going to be able to do anything with it. They want the gates to stay intact and unmanipulated. Why would they want to arrive first and fight their way through traps, illusions, monsters, etc just to sit around a place that Xykon may visit soon, or may wait a few dozen years. Its not like the lich is going to die off. So far defending a gate hasn't worked nearly as well as attacking one.

The real top priority of the OotS is stopping Xykon. If Xykon is in fact heading towards a new gate, then the order should try to stop him. But if he and his army are still camped in AC, then the Order shouldn't be running off to another continent to wait him out. They should be focusing on him in AC. And its a heck of a lot easier to fight an army if you have one of your own.

[cheesecake]

I am angry with Hinjo. "we have no proof they are alive we can't scry on the city and we can't scry haley and belkar"

If you can't scry them and you can't scry the city then where are they? All the more reason to go zoming in with one of Elan's whatever you call it DASHING ENTRIES!

[Querzis]

I am angry with Hinjo. "we have no proof they are alive we can't scry on the city and we can't scry haley and belkar"

If you can't scry them and you can't scry the city then where are they? All the more reason to go zoming in with one of Elan's whatever you call it DASHING ENTRIES!

It woudnt be a dashing entries, more like a suicide entries. I really dont know why you think that not knowing if they are alive or not or even where they are is a good reason to jump in 20 000 hobgobelins.

[David Argall]

2.) There's no evidence that the three remaining members OR Hinjo have ANY IDEA where Girard's Gate is. Hinjo, as a paladin, was forbidden by oath to know. And the rest of the OOTS probably didn't take notes. All they know is, "In the desert somewhere."

Hinjo, and pretty much any surviving paladin, probably knows where the gates are. The secrets were apparently largely secrets only to those outside the order. Given the presumptive nature of their oath forbidding even casual checking on the other gates, and the order's world wide activities, they would need to be told "Do not go here until ordered to. Top priority." Technically, they would not need to be told why, but it is likely better they be told. In either case, they can easily figure it out.
Now whether Hinjo would tell the party is quite doubtful. He arrested Shojo for trying to look in on the other gates. He may not have known exactly what Shojo was intending to do, but he didn't seem to care. He may well feel that his oaths reject any such aid.
But the party members likely know where the gate is close enough for their purposes. [Note here that Nale & company seem confident they can find a gate on what is told in one off-stage recap.] Haley and Elan are presumed to have family in the general area, and presumably would want to know how close they would be to their relatives. And the information is not hard to convey.



If they don't have the means to go to Girard's Gate, they can't go.
It is pretty sure they can manage it. It likely was not as convenient as they would have liked, but we need to look at the positive reasons to stay.

The first is that they need their meatshields. While Roy and Belkar can be replaced, they are presumably pretty well up there in levels and that won't be easy, particularly if the replacements discover that the previous meatshields were abandoned. The party may well buy into the paladin idea that knowledge about the gates should be kept quiet, which will make the number of acceptable candidates small, and the recruitment more difficult.
On a personal basis, they want their friends [and/or long term teammate] back. That means working with Hinjo for the moment. They apparently lack a way into the city and don't know how to find Haley if they were to get in. That pretty much restricts them to hanging around and hoping the missing people can sneak out.
And as long as the lich is staying in the city, there is no rush to get to the next gate.

[chibibar]

But Part of the Paladin's oath is NOT to check on the other gates. If Hinjo breaks the oath and check on Girade's gate, wouldn't that be breaking the oath? would that be consider evil?

Hinjo is a Paladin.... and thus must follow the oath that he promise to..... so I don't think Hinjo will be going to the Girade's gate anytime soon. As for the rest of the OoTS......... they could go, but need to regroup first.

[pendell]

Who cares about going to the next gate?

The Order isn't going to be able to do anything with it. They want the gates to stay intact and unmanipulated. Why would they want to arrive first and fight their way through traps, illusions, monsters, etc just to sit around a place that Xykon may visit soon, or may wait a few dozen years. Its not like the lich is going to die off. So far defending a gate hasn't worked nearly as well as attacking one.

The real top priority of the OotS is stopping Xykon. If Xykon is in fact heading towards a new gate, then the order should try to stop him. But if he and his army are still camped in AC, then the Order shouldn't be running off to another continent to wait him out. They should be focusing on him in AC. And its a heck of a lot easier to fight an army if you have one of your own.

But we know from the oracle's prophecy that Xykon will come within XXXX feet of Gerard's gate at some point in the undetermined future.

What this means, I think, is that it is fated for him to reach that location. Therefore, any attempt to stop him from reaching that point is fore-ordained to failure. We can't destroy him or stop him until he has done this. I prefer working WITH wyrd ... the tides of fate ... rather than against it.

Since he's going to reach the gate *anyway*, far better to wait for him to waste his strength on its defenses, then hit him while he's weak, instead of rolling in prematurely and being smacked around by an epic-level lich.

Which means that attacking Azure City is *probably* going to do nothing but break our teeth against that stone wall. If we couldn't *defend* a city against the numerically superior goblin horde, how the devil are we supposed to *attack* it?

A small sneaky group has a better chance of getting into the city and doing a small job like rescuing people then an attack by a largish army which can't be hidden.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Crimson Avenger]

To heck with it, just attack the city. If memory serves corretly, the Fireball template covers over 40 five foot squares. Zip in, unleash a couple of rounds of devestation, and zip out. You'd be amazed how quickly hobos will go away when you take out a hundered or two and are gone before defenses can be mounted.

'Course that's probably the adventurer in me talkin'

Famous last words: "Aw, com'on, we can take 'em!

[Yoritomo Himeko]

Spoiled for space:

... but why are E, V, and Durkon still cruising the seas with Hinjo?

I understand Hinjo and company need to take back their city. But c'mon, Xykon doesn't care about their city. He wants the next gate ... Girard's gate. As soon as he knows where it is, he and the army will head there. Then will be the time to take back the city.

And ... I hate to say this, but it's none of the OOTS' concern.

The mission of the OOTS is 1) vanquish Xykon and protect the gates 2) resurrect Roy. I fail to see how sailing around for four months with Hinjo, leaving Haley and Belkar to
stumble around either in Azure City or in the wilderness, advances either of these goals. Whether Azure City is ever liberated, or the entire population is massacred, is entirely irrelevant to the mission goals.

The liberation of Azure City is a job for Hinjo and the army of Azure City. It is not a job for the OOTS. Dungeon Crawling through Girard's puzzle palace and rescuing Roy is the OOTS' job. I don't see how this is helping.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I agree. Keeping the Gates out of Xykon and Redcloak's hands is much more important than Hinjo and his silly blue city. Let him find his own allies.

I hope Elan, Durkon, and V get another boat at the next port and get back to Haley, Belkar, and finally resurrecting poor Roy!

[NikkTheTrick]

Which means that attacking Azure City is *probably* going to do nothing but break our teeth against that stone wall. If we couldn't *defend* a city against the numerically superior goblin horde, how the devil are we supposed to *attack* it?
First, Hinjo is not planning to attack AC yet. He will do that once he has an army numerically superior to that of Xylon (impossible without allies) or if hobos move.
Retaking the city would not destroy Xylon (who will abandon the city if he has to. He does not care about AC. Therefore, Oracle's words have little to do here.

A small sneaky group has a better chance of getting into the city and doing a small job like rescuing people then an attack by a largish army which can't be hidden.
Our small group is a wizard with poor dexterty, Elan who often fails hide checks and Durkon whose armor makes so much noise that goblins could hear him on the other side of the dungeon.

They will need to sneak in a city held by goblins whose job at the moment is keeping people from coming in.

Now, two most stealthy characters have been unable to get out. How do you suppose three least stealthy characters get in then out?

The best course of action for both AC forces and VDE is to stay the hell away from AC. They are too weak to do anything. They need more allies and more information.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

But we know from the oracle's prophecy that Xykon will come within XXXX feet of Gerard's gate at some point in the undetermined future.
Good point, but a few problems:
Just because Xykon will be near Girard's gate doesn't mean he'll be there at full power. It's best that his forces at least be weakened in some way.
The Oracle didn't specify a time frame. If Xykon manages to learn a thing or two about patience, he could easily outwait the Order—one of the benefits of being undead.

So we still have some good reasons to tackle Xykon while he's at Azure City.

[Kreistor]

So we still have some good reasons to tackle Xykon while he's at Azure City.

But I have a better reason not to.

I'm sick of Azure City. They've been there for nearly 240 strips. That's almost half the story. The OotS does not need to follow Hinjo's triumphant return to AC. They have issues elsewhere they must deal with. Like a decent side quest with a real dungeon and loot. Oh, and getting to the next gate. That's a little important, too.

[Craig1f]

You are brutally heartless.

[Fussy]

They're on the boat because

1. They're on Hinjo's boat, so they're at his mercy as to where they go

Therefore...

2. They'll get back to Azure City faster if they help him out

3. Elan feels he must be Hinjo's bodyguard until they ressurect Roy

at which point...

4. Roy is Hinjo's bodyguard

5. They get to buckle swashes, shiver various people's timbers, and wear eyepatches

[....]

oh man... that's a moral quagmire...

If a Paladin is ORDERED to deliver a message critical to the survival of his kingdom, hence, ASAP... and comes across a group of goblins/whatever harassing a fair maiden...

Does the paladin forsake his Good to carry out his orders?
or forsake his Lawful to take time and help people?

This isn't that sort of a situation, though.

Xykon is still in AC, there is no current threat to Girard's gate (except for whatever the LG is doing), so the remaining Order can afford to wait and see if they can save the other members.

[NikkTheTrick]

This isn't that sort of a situation, though.

Xykon is still in AC, there is no current threat to Girard's gate (except for whatever the LG is doing), so the remaining Order can afford to wait and see if they can save the other members.
Not to mention that VDE don't know where the hell the gate is...

[Surfing HalfOrc]

The Order is a team, and most teams don't do nearly as well when haf the team is out of the game. And the current make up is even less optimal than usual.

Roy: Primary Muscle and Leader-Dead
Belkar: Secondary Muscle-Missing in Action
Haley: Long Range shooter and general problem solver- Missing in Action

Elan: General All Around-Good at many things, great at nothing. Primary role is support, and buffs. No one to buff.
Durkon: Coach and Heart of the Team: Not much for offensive attacks, but can still heal everybody.
Vaarsuvius: Heavy Hitter in the Magic Department, but not much in the way of hp or AC. S/he would be in major trouble once s/he runs out of spells and is still a long way from the exit.

Right now, Elan, Durkon and Vaarsuvius need Hinjo and the fleet as much as Hinjo needs them.

[Mesfens]

I wonder... if Elan manages to use his charisma to convince Therkla to temporarily [or permanently, perhaps] join the OOTS, would that make up some what for Haley's absence as problem-solver? I mean, Therkla seems to be a ninja and ninjas are almost as good skill monkeys as rogues.
Mind, Durkon or Hinjo might object, and Kubota would kind of pissed at Hinjo "stealing his employees".

[WarriorTribble]

Oh yes, it makes a lot of sense, but ask yourself this one question:

When has this comic ever been about making sense and choosing the very best thing to do?I agree, as comic 505 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0505.html) nicely shows that mindset is limited to Durkon, and to a lesser extent Roy. OOTS are by now really a bunch of close friends, possible apocalypses are much less important. With that mostly off topic stuff out of the way I totally agree with pendell in every way however including the heartless part. :smalltongue:

[Prowl]

oh man... that's a moral quagmire...

If a Paladin is ORDERED to deliver a message critical to the survival of his kingdom, hence, ASAP... and comes across a group of goblins/whatever harassing a fair maiden...

Does the paladin forsake his Good to carry out his orders?
or forsake his Lawful to take time and help people?

Thanks for the Ultima IV flashback... been a long long time. Where's a gypsy when you need one?

[Hood]

To heck with it, just attack the city. If memory serves corretly, the Fireball template covers over 40 five foot squares. Zip in, unleash a couple of rounds of devestation, and zip out. You'd be amazed how quickly hobos will go away when you take out a hundered or two and are gone before defenses can be mounted.

'Course that's probably the adventurer in me talkin'

Famous last words: "Aw, com'on, we can take 'em!

I don't think that would be wise. The risk that Xykon would be able to fly over to the ship and engage it (which would likely be fatal) is too great. It's not sure that would happen, but they can't risk V's life on a chancy plan just to kill a couple hundred hobbos, since there are still 20,000 in the city. V wouldn't stand a chance if he had to fight Xykon- X could probably just sink the ship to win.

Don't forget that they're on sailing ships. If the wind died down they wouldn't be able to make a quick retreat.

Edit: Bwahaha, I just realized-


You'd be amazed how quickly hobos will go away when you take out a hundered or two and are gone before defenses can be mounted.

:smalleek:

[Doug Lampert]

To heck with it, just attack the city. If memory serves corretly, the Fireball template covers over 40 five foot squares. Zip in, unleash a couple of rounds of devestation, and zip out. You'd be amazed how quickly hobos will go away when you take out a hundered or two and are gone before defenses can be mounted.

'Course that's probably the adventurer in me talkin'

Famous last words: "Aw, com'on, we can take 'em!

You'll get to use those last words. The order has no fast transportation magic and Xykon does a fair amount of scrying (using a crystal ball so he can have a minion track people while he's busy with more important things).

This means you aren't likely to suprise him except that he doesn't really care, so if you are REAL REAL lucky it will be the 3rd time you try this before you find that a Greater Invisiblity Xykon has just hit you with a Greater Dispel while Redcloak casts the probably unnecessary Dimensional Anchor on V or D and about 30 hobgoblin casters throw their attack spells and 500+ hobgoblin archers READY to shoot at the FIRST character from VED to try to cast a spell and 500+ MORE ready to shoot at the SECOND from VED to try to cast a spell and yet 500+ MORE ready to shoot at the THIRD from VED to try to cast a spell and all three die without accomplishing anything.

Faced with high level caster opposition that is willing to come after you concentrating on the level 1 mooks is insane. And Redcloak at least IS willing to come after the order if they are a threat to the hobgoblins, and he probably is a higher level than they are.

[Roderick_BR]

As people said, they won't take on a whole city filled with hobgoblins AND Xykon AND Redcloak on their own. Hinjo said that they were trying to gather allies for a full-scale war to retake the place.
They could just move on to the next gates, but as they noted, only Roy knows the way.

[shaddy_24]

It's been revealed that none of the paladins know where the gate is. So unless the order wants to wander around that other continent for a few years and hope to stumble across the gate (which isn't likely), they need to get Roy back. But he's in the city. And VED can't sneak in (Haley and Belkar are much better at stealth and they couldn't sneak out after all), so they will have to wait for Xykon to move on, or for Hinjo to get an army and take the city back. So they stay with the fleet.