2wf paladin more viable after Tasha

[Waazraath]

Two weapon fighting is often sub optimal, but in the past, people made a case for the paladin. It lacks the fighting style (bummer) but the lvl 11 feature (Improved divine smite) made it viable, as did 'more opportunities to deliver smites'.

How is this after Tasha's, especially due to spirit shroud? After lvl 11 (assuming versatile weapon), first round bonus action spirit shroud, 2 attacks with 1d10 + 1d8 + 1d8 + 4 (assume 1 str increase), round 2 and further draw weapon make 3 attacks, 3d8 + 4 / 3d8 + 4 / 3d8 ; no negative hit modifiers (like with GWM), 48.5 damage assuming all hits, and the ability to use a smite when appropriate. (at the lower levels you coud use divine fervor, but I'm not sure if that's better than just using the spell for a guaranteed 2d8, since you can loose concentration at early levels more easily ime).

Oh yeah, with Tasha's fighting style you can grab 2 cantrips and improve versatility a bit.

Not gonna win the best build ever award, but nothing wrong with it either I think. Any ideas to further improve?

[stoutstien]

Two weapon fighting has always been a valid option for paladins. The style add so little it's almost pointless and they have Divine favor. Spirit shroud is a nice addition.

[RogueJK]

Without the Dual Wielder feat, you can't TWF with a Versatile weapons. Both have to be Light weapons.

And if you're going to be burning a feat on it anyway chasing Dual Wielder, you're much better off with Polearm Master, for the ability modifier to damage on the BA attack, and additional Opportunity Attacks, and potentially the Reach. You can still apply Improved Divine Smite and Spirit Shroud to all polearm attacks. It's strictly better than TWF with the Dual Wielder feat, especially since you can stack on something like Great Weapon Master too. It also gives you the option to do Spear+Shield with Dueling Fighting Style for a higher AC and a little bit of bonus damage, at the cost of no reach and no GWM option.

[Yakk]

Spear+Shield+PAM+Duelist is 2d6+1d4+6+3*stat and 3 taps, and an opportunity stab. And you get shield for +2 AC (more if enchanted).

Longsword+Longsword+DW is 3d8+2*stat and 3 taps and you get a style for +1 AC (defensive) or something else.

Even without duelist (suppose you really want blindfighting style), S+S+PAM wins. If your strength is 18, you 21.5 damage. LSx2 is ... 21.5 damage.

Then there is the double-bladed scimitar, at 24.5 damage, featless.

Dual wielding in 5e is quite mechanically weak.

[RogueJK]

Actually, come to think of it, Dual Wielder + Defense fighting style gets you the same +2 AC bonus as Dueling Spear+Shield. So that aspect is a wash, at least until you happen to get a magic shield.

But PAM is still better.

The damage disparity gets even greater if stacked with Great Weapon Master, and Paladins have good ways to mitigate the GWM attack penalty through stuff like Bless and some Channel Divinity options (namely Devotion and Vengeance).

[jaappleton]

Spear+Shield+PAM+Duelist is 2d6+1d4+6+3*stat and 3 taps, and an opportunity stab. And you get shield for +2 AC (more if enchanted).

Longsword+Longsword+DW is 3d8+2*stat and 3 taps and you get a style for +1 AC (defensive) or something else.

Even without duelist (suppose you really want blindfighting style), S+S+PAM wins. If your strength is 18, you 21.5 damage. LSx2 is ... 21.5 damage.

Then there is the double-bladed scimitar, at 24.5 damage, featless.

Dual wielding in 5e is quite mechanically weak.

Unfortunately, the math is the math. This is very true.

Additionally, something almost no one brings up is magical weapons. With a shield and spear, and PAM, I need one magical weapon. One.

With dual wielding, you need multiple. And yes, this CAN be a boon, as you can have multiple effects from multiple magical weapons. This is very true. But until you get two, only that one weapon can bypass magical resistance and the slew of things which comes with mundane VS magical weaponry.

[sithlordnergal]

The four biggest problems you'll always run into with TWF as a Paladin are these:

1) You need Dual Wielder to get the biggest bang for your buck

2) You don't have the Two-Weapon Fighting Style.

3) Polearm Master exists, and it works with a Quarterstaff + Shield or Spear + Shield

4) You need two magical weapons instead of 1

Unfortunately, Spirit Shroud and Improved Divine Smite do nothing to fix those issues since they work just as well on a Paladin with Polearm Master as they do with Two-Weapon Fighting. Yes, Dual Wielder lets you use weapons that deal more damage and gives you a +1 to AC, but Polearm Master lets you make a Bonus Action attack, have another way to provoke Opportunity Attacks, and you can do all that while wielding a shield for +2 AC. Improved Divine Smite and Spirit Shroud work with Polearm Master's Bonus Attack as well, meaning that lowly little 1d4 attack can now do 1d4+2d8+Smite Damage.

That isn't to say Dual Wielding is useless of course. You can still make it work, you just need to be more creative. The most effective way to Dual Wield is, and always has been, to ride on a Medium Sized Mount while Dual Wielding Lances. Since Paladins have access to Find Steed, they are the best candidates to ride a mount, since even if their mount dies they can just resummon it. And if you have Dual Wielding with a pair of Lances, you'll be doing 3d12 damage.

[Snowbluff]

I don't understand spirit shroud as an addition. Seems like a single target Spirit Guardians. I guess it's nice all paladins get it, at least.

[stoutstien]

The whole point of two weapon fighting with a paladin is it doesn't cost any feats or fighting styles and it's still valid. I would hope a dedicated feat(potentially limited race selection) and fighting style combo out performs it or we would have a problem.

[Waazraath]

The point about magic weapons (and needing 2 with 2wf and only 1 with using PAM) is valid. But the thing is, is that with PAM, you need to get a magic polearm. This is table dependend, but in my exprience, you probably will get that +1 polearm, but others get flametonges, sunblades, and much cooler stuff. 2wf doesn't lock you down in such a way.

[sithlordnergal]

The point about magic weapons (and needing 2 with 2wf and only 1 with using PAM) is valid. But the thing is, is that with PAM, you need to get a magic polearm. This is table dependend, but in my exprience, you probably will get that +1 polearm, but others get flametonges, sunblades, and much cooler stuff. 2wf doesn't lock you down in such a way.

Well, the nice thing with Polearm Master is that it works with Quarterstaffs. Meaning if you get a magic staff you can use that as your weapon, since more magic staffs state they can be used as a magic quarterstaff.

[Waazraath]

Well, the nice thing with Polearm Master is that it works with Quarterstaffs. Meaning if you get a magic staff you can use that as your weapon, since more magic staffs state they can be used as a magic quarterstaff.

True. And this does help, if I go through the DMG and the number of cool magical staffs. But on the other hand: I never found any of those in play, nor can I think of any from official adventures I DM'd.

[sithlordnergal]

True. And this does help, if I go through the DMG and the number of cool magical staffs. But on the other hand: I never found any of those in play, nor can I think of any from official adventures I DM'd.

Really? There are a bunch that you can find, especially in official adventures. They are a bit rarer in hardcovers, but even in ToA you can find a Staff of Striking I believe.

[bendking]

Without the Dual Wielder feat, you can't TWF with a Versatile weapons. Both have to be Light weapons.

And if you're going to be burning a feat on it anyway chasing Dual Wielder, you're much better off with Polearm Master, for the ability modifier to damage on the BA attack, and additional Opportunity Attacks, and potentially the Reach. You can still apply Improved Divine Smite and Spirit Shroud to all polearm attacks. It's strictly better than TWF with the Dual Wielder feat, especially since you can stack on something like Great Weapon Master too. It also gives you the option to do Spear+Shield with Dueling Fighting Style for a higher AC and a little bit of bonus damage, at the cost of no reach and no GWM option.

Exactly this.

[Foxhound438]

Something that no one seems to have pointed out, with 2wf you can make a dexterity focused build, where PAM always requires investing in strength. Yes, even those disgusting hexadins that everyone insists on recommending need 13 strength to multiclass. I don't think it's a huge deal personally, as you can't smite with bows, you don't get the benefits of any of your 2wf build resources at range (even spirit shroud only effects enemies out to 10'), and the armor class benefit of the dual wielder feat only matches the benefit of heavy armor giving 1 more AC than comparable medium armor. On the upside, you do get better ranged attacks when you need them, and better initiative. Dex saves are also more common than strength saves.

Outside of dex builds, it might be nice to not be tied to polearms anyways - People criticize 2wf a lot for needing two magic weapons to get the bonuses to all of their attacks, but magic swords are more common than magic polearms. Having +1 to some of your attacks would be better than not getting any bonus at all in that sense.

Finally, the difference in maths for damage output isn't really that much. If you like the 2wf aesthetic and want to use it, it's still absolutely fine.

[RogueJK]

where PAM always requires investing in strength

You can't use PAM with DEX, but with Shilelagh and a Quarterstaff you can PAM with WIS, or with CHA with 3+ levels of Tomelock or 6+ levels of Lore Bard, or a Hexadin can utilize CHA for PAM with a spear with 1 Warlock level or any polearm with 3 levels, or a Battlesmith can PAM with INT with 3 Artificer levels.

You could even totally dump STR if you were to gain WIS Shilelagh through something like the Magic Initiate or Wood Elf Magic feat, thus eliminating even the multiclassing STR requirement.

None of those are really ideal (other than perhaps Hexblade 1 with Spear+Shield), but they're non-STR PAM options.


And if your DM allows Eberron content, you can effectively gain the PAM bonus attack with a Double-Bladed Scimitar with no feat needed, and if you also take the Revenant Blade feat, it becomes a Finesse weapon. You won't get the bonus Opportunity Attack of PAM, but you do get PAM's superior TWF aspect in a DEX-based format, and Revenant Blade is also a STR/DEX half feat that grants you +1 AC to boot. (However, Double-Bladed Scimitar + Revenant Blade is setting-specific, and generally regarded as fairly overpowered.)

[MaxWilson]

The whole point of two weapon fighting with a paladin is it doesn't cost any feats or fighting styles and it's still valid. I would hope a dedicated feat(potentially limited race selection) and fighting style combo out performs it or we would have a problem.

Exactly this.

[Waazraath]

Really? There are a bunch that you can find, especially in official adventures. They are a bit rarer in hardcovers, but even in ToA you can find a Staff of Striking I believe.

We only play hardcovers (and no ToA), so that might explain. We most recently did a bunch of adventures of TotYP and OotA: lots of magical swords, a sunblade, and 3 mega intelligent artifact level weapons below White Plume Mountain... but 0 staffs found. But this only illustrates its a really ymmv thing if you want to include items in the equation. Maybe they were there, but we missed them. Maybe they are prevelant in other adventures. Maybe it doesn't matter cause you have an artificer around in your party to give you a +2 glaive. But maybe you have a very strict DM and are walking around with a non-magical weapon at lvl 12 and you're buggered.

[Sception]

TWF paladins remain where they were before Tasha - perfectly viable, probably the best TWFers in the game, but still well short of optimal, and the more you invest into it the further behind alternative options you fall.

A paladin who dual wields short swords, trading the AC bonus from their shield arm to have something to do with their bonus action and an extra chance to smite each round without having to spend combat styles, asis, or multiclass dips to do so is making a reasonable trade.

And as long as you're actively using your combat style, asis, and levels to do other things that stays a reasonable trade. That's a fully viable situation - paladin has decent generic combat style options (more with Tashas, but defense was always solid). Paladin is very stat intensive, and has a number of strong feat options that have nothing to do with your weapon set up. bonuses to charisma or weapon attack stats, sentinel, lucky, alert, inspiring leader, resilient or war caster, maybe heavy armor master (in games that will wrap up before tier three - ie most games) or elven accuracy, maybe fey touched from Tashas. It's entirely possible for a paladin to make excellent use of their ASIs without dedicating any to their weapon set up. And paladin is a solid class on its own at least through tier two, and even if you want to multiclass, sorcerer is a decent option that, with the right spell and feature selection, will operate just fine without impacting their gear decisions to much (focusing too much on quicken or bonus action spells will reduce the benefit of dual wielding and push you back towards sword and board, but a sorcadin can get just as much mileage out of twinning concentration buffs and smiting excess slots away).


So yes, dual wielding is a perfectly viable choice for a paladin, so long as it's a generic choice between a second weapon and a shield. As soon as you start investing *extra* effort into that, other options pull way, way ahead. Paladins don't have to spend an asi on their weapon set up, but the moment you do you'll find that the two weapon feat is way less effective than great weapon master or polearm master, and honestly doesn't even compare particularly favorably with shield master. You could dip fighter for the two weapon combat style, but that combat style is less effective than other combat styles and that level dip is doing less for you than, say, a dip into hexblade would be doing for the spear & shield paladin next to you.

...

So anyway, long story short, dual wielding is fine and viable for paladins, and better for paladins than for basically anybody else, but don't invest any extra effort in it at all. Grab your paired short swords or scimitars and go to town, and invest your combat style and asis on other things.

[RogueJK]

So anyway, long story short, dual wielding is fine and viable for paladins, and better for paladins than for basically anybody else

With the possible exception of some tankier Rogue multiclass combos that don't frequently rely on BA Disengage (such as a Barbarian/Rogue, for example), as well as potentially the post-Tasha's Bladesinger.

[stoutstien]

It is odd that all the classes who swing weapons and don't have access to the two weapon fighting style (which is crap even for twf uses) are the ones that get the most out of it. Barbarian, paladin, and rogue all have good reasons to use twf at least occasionally.

[Corran]

Oh yeah, with Tasha's fighting style you can grab 2 cantrips and improve versatility a bit.
If you can pick up ranged attack cantrips, I'd say that Tasha's makes twf worse than it was before. It's still good when you dont want to spend a feat on PAM and when holding a shield is not that great of a boost to your side (ie you can make better use of the increased dpr over the AC boost), but part of the appeal of twf is that you can change to ranged (bow) attacks more readily. Cantrips are still better (because they rely on casting stat and because of scaling), but if multiclassing is out then it's worth considering twf (especially on a dex based build) instead of spending a feat on magic initiate (especially if you need to use your feats for things other than PAM and magic initiate; lots of good options out there). It's still going to find use here and there (off the top of my head probably most common on oathbreakers when running low on undead minions), but with a cantrip potentially taking care of my ranged attacks at the cost of a fighting style, I imagine that the occasions where I'll have to rely on using two shortswords/scimitars will be less common.

[RogueJK]

You can pick any two Cleric cantrips, so that includes Sacred Flame and/or Toll the Dead for ranged options.

[Corran]

You can pick any two Cleric cantrips, so that includes Sacred Flame and/or Toll the Dead for ranged options.
I had something more like chill touch in mind. So less points for cleric cantrips (poor range), more points indirectly for twf. Not sure what that means in regard to my initial thought, but thanks for letting me know anyway.

[Dork_Forge]

If you can pick up ranged attack cantrips, I'd say that Tasha's makes twf worse than it was before. It's still good when you dont want to spend a feat on PAM and when holding a shield is not that great of a boost to your side (ie you can make better use of the increased dpr over the AC boost), but part of the appeal of twf is that you can change to ranged (bow) attacks more readily. Cantrips are still better (because they rely on casting stat and because of scaling), but if multiclassing is out then it's worth considering twf (especially on a dex based build) instead of spending a feat on magic initiate (especially if you need to use your feats for things other than PAM and magic initiate; lots of good options out there). It's still going to find use here and there (off the top of my head probably most common on oathbreakers when running low on undead minions), but with a cantrip potentially taking care of my ranged attacks at the cost of a fighting style, I imagine that the occasions where I'll have to rely on using two shortswords/scimitars will be less common.

Besides having to switch to a bow, using a bow will pretty much always be superior. Cantrip scaling won't be better than 2 attacks (that include your modifier) that keyoff your primary stat rather than Cha. The only real exception to this is if you went 2 deep in Warlock to grab EB/AB but that's a heavy investment and a stand out.

[RogueJK]

The only real exception to this is if you went 2 deep in Warlock to grab EB/AB but that's a heavy investment and a stand out.

Or 1 level of Warlock plus the Eldritch Adept feat for Agonizing Blast.

[Dork_Forge]

Or 1 level of Warlock plus the Eldritch Adept feat for Agonizing Blast.

Hurts your Paladin progression less, but is also a heavy investment. You can't go V. Human for it unless your first level is Warlock, at which point you miss out on hp and profs and stretch out the awkward early 1st level of Paladin.

[Corran]

Besides having to switch to a bow, using a bow will pretty much always be superior. Cantrip scaling won't be better than 2 attacks (that include your modifier) that keyoff your primary stat rather than Cha. The only real exception to this is if you went 2 deep in Warlock to grab EB/AB but that's a heavy investment and a stand out.
There is one more exception I was thinking about. That of dex not being your primary stat (could be secondary, eg stuck on 16 after point buy, or even tertiary or less important, eg anything ranging from 8 to 14).

[Dork_Forge]

There is one more exception I was thinking about. That of dex not being your primary stat (could be secondary, eg stuck on 16 after point buy, or even tertiary or less important, eg anything ranging from 8 to 14).

People that dump dex because heavy armor will have to live with their choices (Dex is such a wide reaching stat that hard dumping it is always out of the question for me), but a +2/+3 mod in your fallback stat isn't a bad choice since you still have your prof bonus to it.